Craftsman : series time frame ?

[Flash21]

I have that exact crossbar, and the ones for the 1/4" and 1/2" breaker bars too. They are not for sale, but I did measure the 3/8" crossbar. It's about 6 & 63/64" long and about 0.3100" in diameter.

I assume it's supposed to be 7" long, but I call it like I see it. I measured the diameter in a few places using a digital caliper. That's the most accurate diameter number for it. I have no idea what it works out to in fractions of an inch.

Also, I tried the all three crosssbars in their respective breaker bars. They all fit about the same. In other words, the crossbar for the 3/8" breaker bar was not significantly looser or tighter than the ones for the 1/4" or 1/2" breaker bar.

Let me know if you need more information.

Bernie

Thanks Bernie, that helps! My 1/4" crossbar seems way too loose, the 1/2" fits as I would expect.

 

[Flash21]

...

Side note: Craftsman makes sliding bar handles (in all the drive sizes), which serve as either a T-handles or L-handles. Very handy and useful in some situations.

Here they are! 1/2", 3/8" w/o crossbar and 1/4":

 

[lauver]

Gary, this can't be right!!!

I can say for absolute certain that the model numbers were present by 1987 or 1988 since my set dates from then.

I am next-to-certain that the model numbers were introduced in the very late 1960s or certainly by the very early 1970s.

Can we really not narrow this date down to within a year or two given all we currently know?!

LG,

I hear what you are saying, and in principal, I agree with you. I'm guessing that the requirement for model numbering probably occured in 1968, when Easco took over the Sears contract. This would have been the ideal time to implement the model number stamping process. I'm also guessing that this requirment was not implemented immediately, as Easco probably had their hands full trying to absorb the MDF operations and supply Sears tool requirements.

That said, as of today, the earliest known date is about 1975. This date could be pushed back further with a single posting. But let's be patient and go where the data takes us. Fair enough?

 

[lbgradwell]

OK, so this is odd... I have never seen one of these ratchets before!

It's a Craftsman-Vanadium with the underline logo and likely from the early 1930s, but it must be very rare.

(Sorry about the picture quality; they aren't mine...)

Notice the distinctive head, direction switch and handle markings! Also take a look at the flare at the male end of the extension. It should be easy to tell the manufacturer, but I'm stuck...

So? How about it? Anyone else encountered these or care to hazard a guess as to their origins?

 

[lauver]

LG,

Never seen these critters before; something to ponder though. AA lists Craftsman Vanadium tools, but not these.

Thanks for posting them so everybody can get a look.

EDIT: The Craftsman Vanadium sockets you posted look generally like the Craftsman Cxx sockets shown on AA, but less ornate.

David Maher (Mr Craftsman Ratchet) owns this ratchet and dated it to 1933-1934. He said they are very rare and were probably short lived. I checked, and this ratchet never made it into a catalog that I could find. Interesting...

 

[lauver]

Gang,

I added a few new series codes today. They are as follows:

HZ O = Danaher/Holo-Krome, ca. 2009-2009

X PR = Pratt Reed, ca. 2009 - 2009

WF Y = Western Forge, ca. 2009 - 2009

Y WF = Western Forge, ca. 2009 - 2009

 

[lbgradwell]

David Maher (Mr Craftsman Ratchet) owns this ratchet and dated it to 1933-1934. He said they are very rare and were probably short lived. I checked, and this ratchet never made it into a catalog that I could find. Interesting...

Very interesting.

Did David have any theories with respect to the manufacturer?

I emailed AA with the photos. Said he'd take a look, but haven't heard back...

 

[lauver]

LG,

No David did not have any theories on the OEM. This seems to be outside his area of interest or the scope of his quest.

I have been scoping out various ratchets trying to find anything with similar external characteristics, but so far no luck. It would be interesting to take one of these ratchets apart and see how they are constructed and the design of the ratchet mechanism. This might point to possible OEM's.

 

[lauver]

Gang,

Added a few new series codes today:

M6Y = Danaher, ca. 2009 - 2009

Y = Danaher, Made in China, ca. 2009 -2009

LC = Lectrolite, ca. ? - 1964

These additions are highlighted in red in the series code list (page 7, post 69, this thread).

 

[lauver]

Gang,

We had a minor breakthrough today. Through the work of Tool Pants, we have figured out who the likely OEM is for the Craftsman Stainless Steel and Lifetime ratchets. Here's a photo of one of the Lifetime versions of these ratchets:

The evidence for this attribution is a patent infringement case. The inventor of this ratchet design was David S. Colvin who holds two patents on this ratchet design. The defendent in this case was Easco Hand Tools as well as Danaher Corp and several of its other tool companies and NAPA (a former customer of Easco and now a customer of Danaher).

Long story short, we now have fairly compelling evidence that Easco was the OEM of the Craftsman SS and Lifetime ratchets. We are still trying to assertain if these ratchets have a legitimate series code. More on this later.

Tool Pants--Great work...you're da man!

 

[Cameronl]

All,

Here are some pictures of a made in Taiwan set. I do not have a purchase date, they came to me last fall at an estate auction. I hope that these will still be of some use.

The combination wrenches are as follows:

3/8 E-44693
7/16 E-44694
1/2 E-44695
9/16 E-44696
5/8 E-44697

The extensions:

3/8" short 44261
3/8" long 44264
1/2" 44131

Ratchets:

1/2" 43797
3/8" 43796
1/4" 43795

I hope that this helps, please let me know if more information or better pictures would help!

Best,
Joel

*************************
Here are some comparison pictures of the Taiwanese 1/2" ratchet, 43797, alongside the same-numbered [I always assumed was a ] made in USA version which I believe was purchased when I got out of college in 1990, either as a graduation gift or among my first tool purchases.

Hope this helps!

Best,
Joel

Wow! I come to GJ looking for some info on my tool set, and find it's the center of a big controversy! Let me muddy the waters some more.

First of all, my set has sockets, combo wrenches and extensions with the same codes as Joel's, but mine are not marked "Taiwan".

The combos are VV series, marked "Forged in USA", the sockets and extensions are EE series, clearly marked "Made in USA".

I have the same ratchets, origin unmarked. But the numbers on mine are of a different font. Here is Joel's comparison of the clearly marked Taiwan and the unmarked ratchet:

Here's mine, unmarked.

Until I found this thread, I would have sworn up and down that I got this set in 1979, certainly no later than 1982, the period I owned my first car. My folks bought me the set for Christmas. This thread indicates the EE series and the tri-wing ratchet were made no earlier than 1986 (if then). By '86 I was married and living in an apartment in Brooklyn, NY. I still owned a car, but didn't do any work on it, lacking a driveway or any space to do so, so I wouldn't have asked for or received a tool set as a gift by then. Unfortunately, my folks and my wife do not remember the gift, so can't help me place it.

If I didn't get these until after '86, it had to been at the very beginning. Perhaps the larger font on the numbers was used in the US before moving the manufacturing to Taiwan?

 

[lauver]

cameronl,

Don't get your ******* in a wad. This thread is not rocket science and likely containes some errors. It is, at best, a work in progress. And this thread is constantly subject to revisions as new information becomes available.

Please note: there are no "official records" of this stuff. Old Craftsman Tool catalogs do provide some insight, but these catalogs have serious limitations:
1) not all Craftsman tools were listed in the catalogs,
2) the catalog illustrations and photos do not show important details like country of origin, series codes, and model numbers on the tool images,
3)some tools included in the catalogs do not have these important details stamped on the tool itself,
4) during some years Sears did not date their catalogs and in other years they listed the dates for a range of years (i.e. 2009-2010), and
5)there were many years when Sears did not publish Craftsman Tool catalogs.

If you check the summary table on Page 7, post #69, of this thread you will find the following entry for EE tools:

E/EE = National Hand Tools/later Stanley Works-NHT division, some USA made, most Taiwanese made, ca. 1982 - 1991

The reason this entry lists the time frame as 1982 - 1991 is because, at the time, we had no tool examples prior to 1982. You will also note in this same entry that some of the EE tools were marked "Made in USA", some were marked "Taiwan", and still others were not marked at all.

If you are sure your EE tool examples were purchase in 1979, I can change the date range accordingly. Just let me know.

 

[lauver]

Gang,

I made a couple of revisions in the summary table today. I added the following series code:

VVY = Danaher, ca. 2009 - ? This new code was brought to my attention by JAFE over on the GH website. I varified this code at my local Sears store.

I also modified the U-circle entry. Tool Pants supplied compelling evidence that the OEM of these tools was probably the Penens subsidiary of Plomb, not Plomb itself. The OEM is now listed as Plomb/Penens.

As usual, let me know if you have evidence of new series codes, material changes to existing series codes, or just concerns about the way this thread is headed (or not headed).

 

[Cameronl]

Don't get your ******* in a wad.

No wadding here, just adding my two cents.

If you check the summary table on Page 7, post #69, of this thread you will find the following entry for EE tools:

E/EE = National Hand Tools/later Stanley Works-NHT division, some USA made, most Taiwanese made, ca. 1982 - 1991

OK, I guess I missed that part. 1982-83 is a very likely time frame for receiving the set, so leave it as is.

 

[lauver]

cameronl,

Glad to hear your ******* aren't in a wad; very uncomfortable.

Just to be clear, I'm not disputing your recollection of a 1979 purchase date. If that is your recollection, we should probably update the date range.

Just so you know, all the date ranges in this thread are based primarily on recollections, except where catalog dates are/were available. Currently, I don't have any Craftsman 1970's or 1980's tool catalogs. Do you have any old catalogs? If so, what years?

 

[a390st]

I don't know if you have them yet or not, but I have seen the new style thin profile 60 tooth ratchets with the "VW" and "KY" codes in 2009.

 

[lauver]

390,

I've got VW, it's been around since 2002. I'll add KY.

Thanks.

 

[mofo62]

Snap On/KASTAR, circa 2000:

Sorry, but this is the best that I can come up with this AM. It was really the idea behind the research, not my own research itself.... maybe someone else will have better leads for you.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14884&highlight=snap+date+codes

I Love this Tool



Awesome Snap on

 

[lauver]

mofo62,

I'm happy for you but I'm confused... why are you posting this on a Craftsman thread?

 

[lauver]

Gang,

I added a new code today:

Hex-Line = Kastar, ca. 2009 - ?

Found this on their offset ratcheting box end wrenches.

That is all...

 

[lauver]

Gang,

I updated the series code summary table (page 7, post #69, this thread) earlier today. All minor changes... nothing to get hung about.

On a larger note, I have finally solved a discrepancy that has nagged me for years. On one hand, Alloy Artifacts indicates that Moore Drop Forge first obtained a contract to supply tools for Sears in 1938. On the other hand, Alloy Artifacts indicates that V-series Craftsman tools (attributed to Moore Drop Forge) did not arrive on the scene until around 1947. So how can this be?

I have explored a few possible explanations:

1) Moore Drop Forge produced Craftsman tools under a different series code. There are actually many series with unknown OEMs. But, I could not find any evidence that Moore Drop Forge produced tools under any of these series codes.

2) Moore Drop Forge produced Craftsman tools with no series codes. Again, I could find no evidence to support this explanation.

3) Moore Drop Forge produced non-Craftsman tools for Sears. Bingo! I visited Alloy Artifacts for the millionth time to recheck the information on Craftsman tools and Moore Drop Forge (the company) and there it was, the missing information. It appears that MDF got it's start with Sears, in 1938, by supplying Dunlop tools. I don't know if this was new information or if it was there all along and it just didn't register. In either case, I'm happy with the discovery; case closed...for now.

On another note, I just noticed today that we past the 600th post on this thread back in July of 2009. If I'm not mistaken, Joe Mamma was poster #600.

 

[superautobacs]

Hah, interesting...

I've seen those Dunlop tools in the old catalogs, but never thought twice about who the manufacturer might be. Perhaps the name didn't spark any interest on my part, simply because there's very little mention of Dunlop tools here.

I guess we have good reason to talk/mention about Dunlop tools now.

 

[lauver]

Hah, interesting...

I've seen those Dunlop tools in the old catalogs, but never thought twice about who the manufacturer might be. Perhaps the name didn't spark any interest on my part, simply because there's very little mention of Dunlop tools here.

I guess we have good reason to talk/mention about Dunlop tools now.

Super,

This is a Craftsman tool thread after all. And within reason, we try to keep it "on topic". But if other Sears brand tools can provide useful information about the Craftsman tools, then so be it.

For what it's worth, Sears has a history of using the same OEMs for its downline tools (Dunlop, Merit, Companion, Sears, Evolv) as they use for their Craftsman tools. Some of these downline tools even have the series codes stamped on them. Others don't.

BTW-- I added KTC as a possible OEM for the BF series. Thanks for all your help on this item.

 

[Tool Pants]

Here is a Sears, Companion, and Dunlap. All made in USA. Also a Sears BF Japan.

 

[lauver]

TP,

The companion wrench has a WF (Western Forge) code on the back side. It looks like the Dunlap and the other Sears wrench have codes too, but I can't make them out.

 

[Scooterfish]

I have 3 Sears USA made combos all marked LC plus 2 have a K, one has an H on the other end from the LC

 

[lauver]

I have 3 Sears USA made combos all marked LC plus 2 have a K, one has an H on the other end from the LC

Scooter,

LC = Lectrolite Corporation. The K & H are probably just forge marks that the OEM uses to identify the forge tooling.

So far, however, we have not identified any post WWII Craftsman tools with the LC code.

 

[manic_mechanic]

I guess I'll throw in my contribution.

I got it at a pawn shop last week for 10 cents.

1/2" drive 7/16 12 point Circle U.

I've seen the Circle U ratchets mentioned, but nothing about Circle U sockets.

 

[lbgradwell]

I've seen the Circle U ratchets mentioned, but nothing about Circle U sockets.

See Post 513...

 

[lbgradwell]

I just noticed a Classifieds ad for a Large Vintage 5" Craftsman Vise.

Interestingly, the vise was Made in Japan and features the BF code; first such example I've ever seen...

 

[Coleman]

Good info guys. I love this site!

I have a 1/4" rachet marked USA VJ with a part number !!

 

[jcfields]

I was looking at the pliers at Sears the other day and saw this pair of Channellocks and an identical (except for the grips) pair of Craftsmans (couldn't find them on the Sears web site for some reason; I don't think they're discontinued because they weren't on clearance or anything). They both have that very nice and distinct "U.S.A." stamped into the side of them. The Craftsman pliers have a maker code of Y.

I think Channellock makes their fence pliers too (Channellock, Craftsman), but I don't remember what the code on those were (and the pictures on sears.com can be different); I think they were Y too, but I could be misremembering. (Edit: They have a Z.)

I found it interesting because I didn't know Channellock made private-label stuff for Sears. It seems like most of the Craftsman pliers are made by Western Forge (including their tongue-and-groove pliers, even the Craftsman Professionals), with the locking pliers (Irwin) and Knipex Cobras as notable exceptions.

 

[chopper1]

Wow. I just finished reading all 32 pages.
Very confusing at some points but again it was very informative.
I didn't see anything that differentiated between the -V- and the =V= codes. Checking mine, the =V= series do not have stock/serial numbers and no COO on them where the -V- series, for the most part do.
Found that I have a rare set of U-Circle 12 pt 1/2" shallow sockets from 7/16 to 1-1/8 including a 19/32. I've also got a Sliding T-bar in really great condition as well as a 10" and 5" extension. I didn't scan the extensions.

 

[lauver]

Wow. I just finished reading all 32 pages.
Very confusing at some points but again it was very informative.
I didn't see anything that differentiated between the -V- and the =V= codes. Checking mine, the =V= series do not have stock/serial numbers and no COO on them where the -V- series, for the most part do.
Found that I have a rare set of U-Circle 12 pt 1/2" shallow sockets from 7/16 to 1-1/8 including a 19/32. I've also got a Sliding T-bar in really great condition as well as a 10" and 5" extension. I didn't scan the extensions.

Chopper1,

You may be reading more into the the V-series code than is known to exist.

The "V" is the important part; the "-" and "=" is cosmetic/window dressing.

That said, if you look at the series code table you'll notice there are two entries for V to indicate a change of ownership and corresponding periods of time:

V = Moore Drop Forge, ca. 1938 - 1967

V (continued) = Easco, ca. 1968 - 1986 perhaps as late as 1991 as NOS

When Easco acquired Moore Drop Forge, Easco got everything; that is they got the MDF facilities, employees, and the Sears Contract... lock stock and barrel. Easco picked up where MDF left off. In fact, Easco simply continued using the V series code on many of the tools until 1986 (perhaps later because the V-series tools may have still been in stock after the V code was retired).

Now, there is the separate issue of stamped model numbers appearing on the Craftsman tools. So far, the earliest we have been able to date the appearence of model numbers on the V-series tools is 1975. It would appear that the model numbering began well into the Easco reign.

So, based on the current state of knowledge, V-series tools without model numbers can be dated pre-1975. Likewise, V-series tools with model numbers can be dated 1975-1986 (perhaps as late as 1990 or 1991).

Does any of this address your questions?

 

[Wrenchette]

Okay, this thread brought me here to date some Craftsman sockets, but I had totally forgotten this wrench.

I've had this since before I got married, I believe it was my uncle's but I am not entirely sure.

I found similar wrenches on Alloy Artifacts, however they were V & P circle.

I saw the P circles had some other forgings, however my wrench does not have anything other than a forged "B" or maybe it's an "8."

Is there a manufacturer for this or is this one for the Tool X files?

 

[lauver]

Wrenchette,

Just looking at the photo's, I'd say you've got an early V-series (but unmarked) wrench, or wrenchette in your case. I'm guessing that these date from about 1946-1949 and were very likely made by Moore Drop Forge. AA put the begining of the modern era tools at 1946 and MDF as the OEM. This wrench design (raised flat panel) is still made today by the sucessor to MDF/Easco, Danaher Corp.

 

[hoopty388]

i looked through the list and saw 2 listings for v new and old I have seen references to -v- and =v= is that what you mean? =v= is older correct?

 

[lauver]

hoopty388,

No, that is not what I meant. See my reply to chopper1, post #634 above. Read it carefully. It address the -V- vs. =V= and the reasons for having two V entries in the table.

Reading between the lines, I'm guessing that you are looking for a way to slice and dice the V-series date range (1938-1986) into sub-ranges that are narrower. In order to do that, you have to look at other attributes of the tools. Two of the best attributes are patent stampings and model number stampings because they are generally dateable, if you have the reference materials. If you are trying to date V-series ratchets in particular, there are a number of physical traits that can be used to more precisely date the ratchets. In particular, the head shape, the reverse lever style, the presence or absence of an oil hole, and the presence or absence of a quick release button. All of these are datable traits that can be varified in the catalogs.

BTW, there are a few old threads that address the single line and double line question. And, if memory serves, the discussion never reached much concensus in terms of varifiable dates. But, you might be able to dig something up with a few searches of the General Tools Forum.

 

[hoopty388]

sorry I missed that post

thanks for your info, I will have to do some research on what to look for to find the older. I am trying to put together a pre-late 60's set. I am hoping to start a rat rod this winter and would like to have a pre 70's set in the back. I know I don't have the car yet but the way I buy tools it will take a while to put together a set, and I would hate to sell something now that I will need in a year.

 

[chopper1]

Gary,
I've got a couple of sockets with a 'G' marking, in fact many. But two in particular stand out as the 'G' is upside down. 3/8 dr shallow 13/16" 43008 and 5/8" 43324 sparkplug. Any thoughts/explaination on these?
mike