Electrical grid question

[KenC]

'Poles and wires have an expiration date?

They do!
I have 3 poles on my property, the one at the street, one midway between my shop and the street and one near my shop where the transformers are located. All were originally installed in 1967 when Dad built the shop. The city electrical utility replaced them all last summer based on the install date recorded on a brass tag attached to each one. Surprised me! And they changed both my transformers at the same time. Shortly thereafter they also let a contract for tree trimming of the entire city's utility right of way. We have suffered a lot of outages due to trees damaging lines. So they butchered, I mean trimmed, a lot of them, one of my big oaks included.
They are finally becoming more proactive as they should considering our rates are the highest in the state!

 

[Lassen Forge]

PG&E started doing this a few years ago, since these high wind events caused their (allegedly) poorly maintained equipment to start fires taking out entire towns (Paradise lost, Greenville turning into Ashville, etc.)... before that we had crappy service anyway in the winter (someone would slide into a pole in the snow, or a tree would fall on a transmission line, or etc...) so we put in a "Full Property" generator (enough to run the house, outbuildings, and shop for 4 weeks straight off propane tanks)... It was a godsend during the winter snows, then when they started playing "power grid lotto" it was the absolute Best money I EVER spent. People were losing freezers of food, weren't able to heat their homes or cook food, etc...
Running the house on it was under 50% of the ensets capacity, so it would sip fuel.

 

[dcg9381]

If you need three-phase power for big machines, that's gonna be a big ol' expensive generator. But you'd only need this to work while people are there and running the machines, so you might not need as much fuel on hand if it's not going 24/7.

You'd think so. Family member has a huge sawmill, runs the largest mill on a Ford V10 powered LPG generator. He bought it used, the depreciation on these things is nuts as most businesses won't go shopping for used and they are not ideal for residential. He finally brought in 3-phase power and was letting that generator go for a under $5k. It was a few years old.

I'm guessing you might need two generators: a smaller setup (powered by gasoline or propane) for things like lights, computers, fart fans, beer coolers, router, etc. and a separate heavy-duty generator, maybe diesel, for the times you need to power the machinery. And do you need this to fire up automatically even if no one is there, or can it wait until someone shows up?

Now you have a dual-feed problem if you're wiring both sources into the building.

Strictly my hang out shop. Phase converter needs 50 amp 240v to run. Until I decide if this building will get new metal or another one built everything is temporary.

Cheapest way to do this is with an interlock and a "portable" 13-15kW generator. That's how I power up my shop.

 

[PCustoms]

I can't imagine spending thousands (tens of thousands?) to provide backup power for a hang out shop when the grid gets shutdown for safety reasons.

 

[dcg9381]

I can't imagine spending thousands (tens of thousands?) to provide backup power for a hang out shop when the grid gets shutdown for safety reasons.

I think a few of us would rather be at the shop when stuff hits the fan for a few days... I've got the tools and equipment to deal with the Problems That Might Come Up a lot better there! Sitting at home waiting for the power to come back on? No thanks.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Profits are one side of the story.
Being able to maintain right of ways and build new infrastructure meets strong resistance from regulations and public opinion.
To be safe, turning off the power is a available option. AGAIN, LETS NOT MAKE THIS political!!! It's just a fact of the way things are.

so demanding PoCos properly maintain their infrastructure so they dont cause fires is now considered political?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

PG&E started doing this a few years ago, since these high wind events caused their (allegedly) poorly maintained equipment to start fires taking out entire towns (Paradise lost, Greenville turning into Ashville, etc.)... before that we had crappy service anyway in the winter (someone would slide into a pole in the snow, or a tree would fall on a transmission line, or etc...) so we put in a "Full Property" generator (enough to run the house, outbuildings, and shop for 4 weeks straight off propane tanks)... It was a godsend during the winter snows, then when they started playing "power grid lotto" it was the absolute Best money I EVER spent. People were losing freezers of food, weren't able to heat their homes or cook food, etc...
Running the house on it was under 50% of the ensets capacity, so it would sip fuel.

where are you at in Cali? you mentioned snow. must be above 4K'

 

[Lassen Forge]

where are you at in Cali? you mentioned snow. must be above 4K'

We were in Shingletown (actually, Viola). Eastern Shasta County at 4100 feet, the southern edge of the Cascades, west slope of Mt. Lassen... There are some things I miss, but the snow (Sierra Cement, or Cascade Concrete) isn't one of them...

 

[fitter30]

Have a 7k gen converted to lp and have a generator panel tied to my main panel. Run a well pump, fridge, some lights, hot water heater, tv , internet and a 5k window ac. Heat is a lp cast iron stove. Not at the same time. Have been without power for 9 days the longest. We were comfortable.

 

[inphx]

2009 MEP805B 30 kW Skid-Mounted Generator Set

John Deere 4045T 83 kW 4.5 L Diesel Engine, /50 kW Rated 3 Phase Output, 416 V / 240 V / 208 V Rated Voltage, 120 V Receptacles, Sound Attenuated, Bottom Mounted Fuel Tank

www.govplanet.com

 

[sjvicker]

So you need to cover 50amp 240v plus probably some other loads for fridges/lights/etc and this needs to be used intermittently to keep you going on your hobby work when the power company shuts you down. It also doesn't seem like you need to run that 3p equipment for days on end but only intermittently. This really comes down to the question of, how much are you looking to spend?

On the budget side, harbor freight has a 13kw generator that might cover what you need, or that generator plus a smaller one.

on the high end side you could do an ecoflow delta pro ultra setup as a batter/inverter backup.

In the middle (8-10k) you could diy your own solar system and have capacity to do what you need and be your primary source of power but really it seems like a gas generator fits your occasional use need.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Alternative electrical sources depend a lot on your requirements.

• For a workshop, how many hours a day/week do you NEED to use it ?
• How much power does it really need ?

If you are NOT running a welder, plasma cutter or compressor, a set of LiFePO4 batteries and an inverter/charger may be enough.

You can buy 100A or 200A directly from China (long lead time) and save a huge amount of money. Put the savings back into a 48V (nominal) battery bank. Yes, that is 16 cells. The charger/inverter should be less expensive.

 

[dcg9381]

In the middle (8-10k) you could diy your own solar system and have capacity to do what you need and be your primary source of power but really it seems like a gas generator fits your occasional use need.

This is big dollar compared to a generator and for it to be functional you have to "buffer" the power (batteries) and have inverters. It's massively more expensive than a generator and only good for limited windows (battery capacity). Remember, most places have days a week without any significant solar power (due to clouds/weather) so the power requirements to keep the lights on for days really add up compared to a generator.

 

[SBAG]

You can buy 100A or 200A directly from China (long lead time) and save a huge amount of money. Put the savings back into a 48V (nominal) battery bank. Yes, that is 16 cells. The charger/inverter should be less expensive.

1) I wouldn’t trust Chinesium for that kind of load (as described in the OP).
2) He would need multiples of batteries.

Inverters and batteries with or without panels CAN work, just depends on how much money one wants to throw at it.

I’m 100% off grid with SMA AC coupling, 24KW of continuous capacity aka 100A @ 240v (with my generator or AC coupling added to it I can hit around 115A), and 72x 370w panels, along with 12 DIY batteries for around 135KWH of battery capacity.

Generator is a preowned Ingersol 30KW powered by a Cummins 4BT (excellent unit).

Not cheap. But grid power is a mile away with an uncooperative utility.

If I build another system, I’ll probably use Victron along with SMA Sunny Boy 7.7s that I have extras of.

 

[dcg9381]

You can buy 100A or 200A directly from China (long lead time) and save a huge amount of money. Put the savings back into a 48V (nominal) battery bank. Yes, that is 16 cells. The charger/inverter should be less expensive.

I think you mean 100Ah 48V batteries from China.

I've been buying 48V 5000 Ah batteries off the boat from a distributor here in the US. They are $1200 each. One battery can produce 100A (best case) but (in reality) don't do well with inverter surge, so you need 2 of them.

So you're in for about $4k for 10kAh of batteries and 6500 watts of inverter - and that's without panels.. Full output? Under an hour. Compare that to an inverter generator than can run 8-10 hours on 5 gallons of gas at 5kW where the total cost is well under $1k.

 

[SBAG]

I think you mean 100Ah 48V batteries from China.

I've been buying 48V 5000 Ah batteries off the boat from a distributor here in the US. They are $1200 each. One battery can produce 100A (best case) but (in reality) don't do well with inverter surge, so you need 2 of them.

So you're in for about $4k for 10kAh of batteries and 6500 watts of inverter - and that's without panels.. Full output? Under an hour. Compare that to an inverter generator than can run 8-10 hours on 5 gallons of gas at 5kW where the total cost is well under $1k.

Just a small point of order. That should read “48v (nominal) 5000 KWH.” If you are referring to server rack batteries, the cells are 100AH. The cells are in series therefore the amps and AHs don’t change as the cells are wired together.

Multiple batteries can be paralleled together or paralleled with bus bars to increase capacity in terms of stored energy (KWH) and amp capacity for charging and discharging.

Yes, I suppose he was referring to batteries and cells. I have to retract the Chinesium comment cause they aren’t made anywhere else.

But there are trustworthy US suppliers who navigate the ******** of China for a little markup and stand by the product.

My batteries are DIY using CALB and Eve cells and REC BMS (expensive but very good). I would likely go for SOK for premade rack batteries.

 

[nadogail]

Ok

They do!
I have 3 poles on my property, the one at the street, one midway between my shop and the street and one near my shop where the transformers are located. All were originally installed in 1967 when Dad built the shop. The city electrical utility replaced them all last summer based on the install date recorded on a brass tag attached to each one. Surprised me! And they changed both my transformers at the same time. Shortly thereafter they also let a contract for tree trimming of the entire city's utility right of way. We have suffered a lot of outages due to trees damaging lines. So they butchered, I mean trimmed, a lot of them, one of my big oaks included.
They are finally becoming more proactive as they should considering our rates are the highest in the state!

 

[Rounder]

Isn't Texas almost their own grid?

That and trying to save money is why the Texas grid is so awful.
I work in the power industry.

 

[Rounder]

The lawyer has stated the poles have termites/rot damage that's why they failed. There's been utility trucks with new poles everywhere for weeks, does that mean they totally dropped the ball?

Big long list of poles to replace, and schedule. Can't replace them all in a day. Could utilites replace them sooner, I can't say. They hold up, until they don't. Typically can be replaced sorta quick and usually only affect small amount of people. But if you are one of those people it is not a good answer..

Miles and miles of lines. I make my tool money replacing old stuff. Also in some states budget is limited by service commission otherwise your rates would sky rocket replacing everything. But even given more money, you can't only get so much done every year.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, The USA "Power Grid" is held together with Spit and Baling Wire. Our mouths are dry and Baling Wire is in short supply.

 

[Rounder]

People who talk about the electrical grid, usually have no clue about the grid or even electricity. You see a lot of scare mongering going on. Groups create websites make some wild statements and disappear. Last year MI was going to have all kinds of brown outs according to some because the coal plants shut down.

Then there are the people that the wires are going to melt because of electric cars. I got gassers. They think this huge billion dollar companies are just winging it, and just heard of electric cars last night.

We did have storm yesterday with wet heavy snow, that did take some lines down, not saying generators are bad. But if you have never had an outage it is a tougher choice. Which is where I am at. Some people know, they need it based on history.

 

[MadScientist3019]

Never heard of power being shut off because of a tornado. Those are generally really isolated events. Even large tornadoes have a very small impact area.

This actually happened in my hometown in (Chapman) KS about 15 years ago. Whole town was without power for 3 days due to downed lines and search and rescue ongoing. I was back to support my dad at that time as their house was hit partially by it but it wasn't a huge tornado (if i remember correctly it was an EF3).

 

[JeepYJ]

This actually happened in my hometown in (Chapman) KS about 15 years ago. Whole town was without power for 3 days due to downed lines and search and rescue ongoing. I was back to support my dad at that time as their house was hit partially by it but it wasn't a huge tornado (if i remember correctly it was an EF3).

After a tornado there’s a good chance there will be no power. But not shutting the power off before a tornado may hit an area which is what was referenced earlier in this thread.

 

[nadogail]

Electrical Power has become a necessity that most people, including myself, could not comfortably live without.

Most of us have no back up supply.

 

[Jim_No_Garage]

Anecdotal comments have been heard over time in North NJ when powerline workers have come in to help after disasters like Hurricane Sandy. They commented on the old age/poor condition of power poles still in use.

I live in a rural area where they came in, performed termite treatments and "reinforced" almost every pole with a steel brace.



This was a cost effective way to reinforce the poles without replacing them.

The major problem around here are trees falling on lines, bringing them down. People always complain until they see what trimming would need to be done to protect the local power lines in the neighborhoods. So long tree shaded lanes!

OP - Diesel generator! The bigger the better.

Jim

 

[PCustoms]

Anecdotal comments have been heard over time in North NJ when powerline workers have come in to help after disasters like Hurricane Sandy. They commented on the old age/poor condition of power poles still in use.

I live in a rural area where they came in, performed termite treatments and "reinforced" almost every pole with a steel brace.



This was a cost effective way to reinforce the poles without replacing them.

The major problem around here are trees falling on lines, bringing them down. People always complain until they see what trimming would need to be done to protect the local power lines in the neighborhoods. So long tree shaded lanes!

OP - Diesel generator! The bigger the better.

Jim

They did the same around here last summer....

I didn't think we really had a massive termite issue in VT though

 

[dave*99]

They did the same around here last summer....

I didn't think we really had a massive termite issue in VT though

That steel reinforcement is called a C-truss. Lot's of things damage wood, not just termites. Pole reinforcement, treatment and trussing is a big business.

 

[SBAG]

They use steel and concrete poles in east Asia. I'm starting to see some steel replacement ones in Missouri. Not sure if the concrete would last much longer than the wood if they are using steel rebar (splating). I'm thinking that some of the newer rebar options (particularly basalt) might make them last damn near forever.

 

[Rounder]

Anecdotal comments have been heard over time in North NJ when powerline workers have come in to help after disasters like Hurricane Sandy. They commented on the old age/poor condition of power poles still in use.

I live in a rural area where they came in, performed termite treatments and "reinforced" almost every pole with a steel brace.




The major problem around here are trees falling on lines, bringing them down. People always complain until they see what trimming would need to be done to protect the local power lines in the neighborhoods. So long tree shaded lanes!



Jim

It is not unusual that one neighbor will not let his tree be cut, and causes outages for the whole block.

They use steel and concrete poles in east Asia. I'm starting to see some steel replacement ones in Missouri. Not sure if the concrete would last much longer than the wood if they are using steel rebar (splating). I'm thinking that some of the newer rebar options (particularly basalt) might make them last damn near forever.

Are you seeing that on transmission lines or distribution? I'd be surprised if distribution, due to cost of so many poles. Is the pole that feeds your house something other than wood?

 

[dave*99]

Are you seeing that on transmission lines or distribution? I'd be surprised if distribution, due to cost of so many poles. Is the pole that feeds your house something other than wood?

I can’t speak for east Asia, but many countries lack the forest resources we have in the US. Wood becomes the expensive option.

 

[SBAG]

Are you seeing that on transmission lines or distribution? I'd be surprised if distribution, due to cost of so many poles. Is the pole that feeds your house something other than wood?

In east Asia, it’s everything. Down the street from my place in Seoul.



I’ve never seen a wooden post in the country except for on the old 1970s movies my wife watches.

The ones I’m seeing and referencing here in MO I think are distribution. Just regular poles but metal. If it’s transmission, it’s lower level stuff. They aren’t ubiquitous…seem to be where they’ve replaced entire stretches along the road. I’ll snap a photo the next time I drive past them and/or ask my uncle (retired lineman) when I see him in a few days.

 

[Rounder]

In US transmission is 69 kV and up and would not be going to your house, and would have lots of clearance, at least in the US it would.
How about the country side is the that steel too? It would just seem like with the miles we have in US, it would get expensive.

Wood does last a long time, but it has a life span. If I had to guess outages are more likely caused by down wires, than down poles.

The advantage of poles over underground, is you can find the problem and fix it quick. Also people push for underground in areas, where it really is not the useful, and cosmetic, I suspect.

Drunks hitting poles, trees, and racoons and big birds are typical cause of outages on lines on poles. Underground is getting pushed in areas, when it fails and hits it lifespan it is going to be expensive. Be interesting to see what ends up being better in long run.

 

[Rounder]

I can’t speak for east Asia, but many countries lack the forest resources we have in the US. Wood becomes the expensive option.

I'd be curious the cost break down. You are shipping in poles of steel or wood, unless they are mining and taking that ore to steel in those countries. But I get your point..

 

[SBAG]

In US transmission is 69 kV and up and would not be going to your house, and would have lots of clearance, at least in the US it would.
How about the country side is the that steel too? It would just seem like with the miles we have in US, it would get expensive.

Korea and I believe Japan and Taiwan all steel or concrete. Been fifteen years since I was in mainland China, but I doubt they have wooden poles either. Plenty of nuclear and coal fired power plants and steel mills. Mature trees? Not so much and would be more valuable for the lumber.

 

[PCustoms]

The advantage of poles over underground, is you can find the problem and fix it quick. Also people push for underground in areas, where it really is not the useful, and cosmetic, I suspect.

Drunks hitting poles, trees, and racoons and big birds are typical cause of outages on lines on poles. Underground is getting pushed in areas, when it fails and hits it lifespan it is going to be expensive. Be interesting to see what ends up being better in long run.

Going on 23hrs without power due to wind/snow, this is comical

 

[Rounder]

Going on 23hrs without power due to wind/snow, this is comical

Longer than that here. They have opened warming shelters.

 

[SBAG]

I believe that underground wires loose quite a bit of effeciency at distance. The electrical current flows as part of an external field (to the wire) and the earth dampens that field. I could be completely wrong, but I believe that’s the physics.

 

[dave*99]

Underground transmission cables suffer dielectric losses. They are essentially coaxial cables filled with a dielectric. The dielectric has a loss component measured by a factor called tangent delta.

Overhead cables do not have this loss component.

 

[Rounder]

I suppose i should remember that from school. But never heard it after school. I doubt it would be a factor in distribution, which is where most people push for underground. transmission lines in most areas are kept clear enough of trees. Though i had a short outage when an insulator less loose and line fell.

Underground transmission is not common by me. Though do have some oil filled lines for 138 kV in big city. But for the miles it travels, I don't see underground working. But I suspect safety factor.

 

[WisJim]

The most common cause of a power outage when we were on the farm (33 years) was squirrels. They would get to the top of the pole and then short out across the exposed terminals on top of the transformer, and we would hear a loud "snap" and sometimes see a flash, and then power was out for us, and usually it also knocked out a fuse down the road so the neighborhood was often without power for at least a few hours. Other transformers in the area must have had better protected terminals than ours did. This happened more times than I can recall, but probably averaged once a year. Lots of well-cooked squirrel carcasses in the yard over the years.