Euro Tools Query

[_brian_]

Does anyone here, especially those in the Europe area, have anything to share on BGS technic tools? I saw a few threads on the brand, but nothing recent and not much in the information shared. I have been working on Euro cars a bit more than normal and have needed to add some tools to my collection, such as a T80 long impact socket, a few M14 triple square bit sockets, E11 socket, H11 bit socket, etc. Finding these tools here in the US is not so easy. Sure we have some from a few brands, but they are quite costly and rarely found in any sets. Example most sets exclude the E11 and have the E10 in 3/8 drive and not in 1/4 drive where it is often needed due to size.

In my search, I satisfied a few of my needs with Bergen / US Pro, but it seems that BGS offers a higher quality tool. I am hoping someone can share experiences as my opinions after only little use does not really cut it. Plus, looks can be deceiving, nothing can compare to the opinion of someone who has used the tools day in and day out for years. My searching is mostly on Amazon as in some cases shipping is free or reasonable. Otherwise, most I find are shipped from the UK at high prices, often making the tool more expensive than the expensive ones I can find here. I am well aware of the top brands like Hazet, Wera, Wiha, Gedore, etc, however, I am not in the market for that class of tool for general tools. Example, I use primarily Vessel Megadora JAWS cross point drivers for such needs, but I do not spend the money for the same brand for slotted, just not worth it for my uses.

Any comments are welcome. I do not need the best of the best, but I also prefer to get a reasonable quality brand vs a no name, cheap chrome plated that chips off socket. It seems that BGS is good, family owned, etc, which seems to fit the values wanted over big box. I also wanted to point out that I like the satin finish I am finding vs the polished chrome that is common here.

EDIT

I wanted to add... feel free to mention C of O. However, this is not a sticking point for me. In general, for example, my opinion is that a Taiwan tool is better than a China tool, but that is an initial opinion. Actual use of the tool might prove otherwise. Personally I rank tools in order: Japan, Germany, US as to where they are actually made. I am also aware that BGS tools are not made in Germany, but they are a German company. I understand the difference.

 

[dukefx]

BGS is just a rebranding company. Most (almost all) of their tools come from China (PRC). The same kind of tools you can buy on Aliexpress or from other garbage selling companies like Extol, Fortum etc.

For E-Torx, try Toptul. Their 1/2" socket set on a rail (GAAG0901) costs about $17 (here) and includes E11. I can assure you that they are good quality. They are not Stahlwille or Hazet but waaaaay better than BGS.

 

[_brian_]

I have heard many good thing of Toptul. I have not yet been able to find a source for the tools but will keep looking. I looked at the part number you provided and see it does have the E11. The only issue with it is that it is a 1/2 drive set. For $17, I am a buyer of that set though.

Thanks for the BGS info. I figured they were rebranding tools, but did not realize they were using the China supply. You mentioned "Extol, Fortum etc", could you share other brands like this? I have never heard of those brands, so having a list of brands to generally avoid would be great.

 

[Odd-job]

Not sure how exchange rates are with your local currency, but have been ordering Koken and other Japanese brands from Amazon Japan. They might even be superior to some of the top Euro brands you mentioned above. Given the global currency volatility, I have been buying more Japanese tools than US branded Taiwanese tools as of late.

 

[dukefx]

They also have a 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 set. I don't know what drive you need. You can also get the sockets individually.

For Toptul retailers try here

 

[_brian_]

Thanks for the replies, and I have looked at each reply. Could I ask this... has anyone used BGS tools? I am looking at costs here, and the prices that are required to get the top brands. These are tools I am not going to use daily. Toptul is for sure a good brand and as I understand, they make their own tools. I do not have enough info on Euro brands to comment on them. Ko-ken is an amazing brand, and it comes at a price. I have one tool from that brand and I love it.

 

[dukefx]

I don't own any BGS tools but I've held a few in my hand. Wouldn't buy anything from them. As far as I know they used to be a respected German company, but now they are just noname tool resellers. Show me a BGS tool and I'll link you at least 10 other companies that sell the exact same **** with their own label on it.

If you are on a low budget then the ones listed below are the ones I'd check out.

Proxxon for example is highly praised by most Germans. Decent quality for a fair price. Stay away from their ratchets tho, they ****.
Matador is another one that is kind of a mix and match. They produce here and there, even in Germany. Some tools are produced in multiple locations, started in location A (Taiwan for example) and finished in location B (their German factory). Overall quality should be quite good tho due to good quality control.
Gedore Red (formerly Carolus) is something I can't fully recommend because their quality is inconsistent imho. You can find really good stuff and also a lot of ****. Still much better than BGS.
KS Tools is one I have no personal experience with. They produce in Taiwan. I tend to see favorable reviews on Amazon.
Vigor is Hazet's daughter company. I'm not entirely sure where their tools are made, but I doubt everything is made in Germany. Their quality is nowhere near Hazet and prices vary massively, so can find some cheaper tools as well.
King Tony is quite popular in Central, Southern, and Eastern Europe. One of our workshops has a lot of their tools and they are on par with Toptul and Hans. They should be fairly easy to get.
Hans is a fully Taiwanese company I could recommend. Getting your hands on their tools may be even more difficult than Toptul.
One of the Polish tool groups: Topex. They have a brand called Neo which is intended for professional use. I've ordered a few wrenches, but they still haven't arrived, so no personal experience yet and I can only guess based on what I know about Polish metalworking that tends to get better and better these days. Their tools are dirt cheap.
The other Polish tool group: Toya has Yato which is similar to BGS, but might not pick the worst of the worst tools to resell. I have an impact socket set that I only bought because I saw how nicely they held up after a lot of abuse at our company. One of the workshops uses mainly Berner tools with some Facom ratchets and Yato sockets thrown into the mix.

These are my recommendations and I didn't check if they have what you need. Triple square for example is really rare even in Europe. Pick your poison and check out some Amazon reviews. Happy hunting!

 

[F-22]

Can definitely recomment Proxxon too. Even the ratchets - they're obivously not the best but they get the job done and also look very unique (the offset head - they need to be made specifically for proxxon and I doubt anyone else uses that design, they can't rebrand something...).



Also, consider Unior. Basic stuff like sockets and wrenches are top quality and the are they make them in was historically an important place of Austria (now Slovenia) known for blacksmithing and forging since the 18th century. I think they still make some tools for the real Gedore even (and the Gedore Oplast screwdrivers). The stuff they laser etch the name on is usually imported and rebranded from Taiwan (still decent quality though, probably same as Proxxon), but the stuff with the name forged on isn't.


I'd stay away from "Gedore RED" and also Topex. I've seen some great Matador tools but mostly older and all made in Germany (probably comparable to the well known German brands...).

 

[dukefx]

Even the ratchets

Too much play and wobbly.

Also, consider Unior.

Not budget friendly. Might as well go straight for Gedore if you are willing to spend that much.

I'd stay away from "Gedore RED" and also Topex

Topex (brand of the Topex group) for sure but they have various brands that aren't just different names for the same stuff. The Topex brand offers mostly Chinese imports. Neo on the other hand is well above Topex. They also meet all kinds of TUV, ISO, and DIN standards. Based on various data and favorable reviews I'd say they are at least as good as Proxxon if not better.

 

[F-22]

Too much play and wobbly.

I only have the one on the photo (1/2"). 72 tooth. It's for sure a bit more sloppy than my Snap On dual 80, but it also costs ~20€ and not ~210€ for a soft grip snap on. It's tighter than my vintage Hazet though. I think the Proxxon is hard to beat for ~20€.

Not budget friendly. Might as well go straight for Gedore if you are willing to spend that much.

The Unior is between 35-50€, the Gedore is 60-80€ (actually 100€ straight on their website). Budget friendly or not, it's half the cost. At around 50-60€ I think Bahco 80 tooth is by far the best option you can get.

Topex (brand of the Topex group) for sure but they have various brands that aren't just different names for the same stuff. The Topex brand offers mostly Chinese imports. Neo on the other hand is well above Topex. They also meet all kinds of TUV, ISO, and DIN standards. Based on various data and favorable reviews I'd say they are at least as good as Proxxon if not better.

Depends on what, I think I may have prejudice cause they're the cheap tools sold in supermarkets. At same price I'd definitely go with Proxxon. Polish tools historically became a bit infamous... Meeting DIN (which is same as ISO) means little, any noteworthy brand will exceed the specifications of those standards. Can they even advertise the tools as metric if they do not meet the metric standards?

 

[dukefx]

The Unior is between 35-50€, the Gedore is 60-80€ (actually 100€ straight on their website). Budget friendly or not, it's half the cost. At around 50-60€ I think Bahco 80 tooth is by far the best option you can get.

I was looking at stuff the OP is looking for and Gedore is about 10-20% more expensive compared to Unior which I consider the same price range. Even if I look at ratchets, although there are way too many variants, roughly the same applies. Other mentioned brands go for about half as much on the big average.

Depends on what, I think I may have prejudice cause they're the cheap tools sold in supermarkets. At same price I'd definitely go with Proxxon. Polish tools historically became a bit infamous... Meeting DIN (which is same as ISO) means little, any noteworthy brand will exceed the specifications of those standards. Can they even advertise the tools as metric if they do not meet the metric standards?

A lot of good tools are sold at hardware stores. Is Knipex bad because you can get Cobras basically everywhere? Is Felo or NWS bad because they are sold at Obi as Lux rebrands? I kinda fail to see your point here. The cheap part I can understand, but Polish labor is cheap and you don't have to worry about shipping from China and import fees which also helps to keep the prices low.

Yes, I agree, I also used to have some prejudice towards Polish metal. For example the made in China motorbike parts were better than the Polish ones, but that's kind of history now.

The standards aren't just shapes and sizes. There are other factors like torque test for example. Don't forget the strict TUV tests and the 25 years warranty.

I think I already mentioned somewhere that I ordered a few 6-point (yes, 6 point, not 12-point) combination wrenches (I only need the box end tho) that aren't otherwise available in Europe. I'd have to buy Nepros, Gear Wrench, SK or something like that from either the USA or Japan for an unreasonable price. They should arrive at the end of the week or early next week. Then I'll have first hand experience.

 

[_brian_]

Wow, thank you all for this information. This is more than I was expecting. I have learned myself many new brands of tools that I have not heard of before. One thing that surprised me is that triple square is also rare in Europe.

I am very aware of ISO and DIN standards, but TUV is new to me. I will look this up for myself.

I would not say I am on a low budget, but I am looking for tools that work vs those that have a fancy name on them. I also consider quality in terms of value, if my needs are met with a $10 tool, there is no reason to buy the $50 tool. What matters to me is fitment. I can deal with things like rough edges, poor looks, etc, but as I mentioned, the tool needs to be functional. This is different than my normal tools that I use daily... at least for now, the tools discussed here are not used often at all. I simply want to have reasonable quality tools in my box when I need them.

In the US here we have a brand, Tekton. They are as F-22 said, a supermarket brand. I will say that just because they have such retailers does not reduce the tool quality. I would buy Tekton over Gearwrench. I have Gearwrench tools from their very start, my first set being branded GearRatchet. They were good, they are now China rebranders. Their Taiwan products are great and I treasure them. SK is also not US anymore, unfortunately. I have many of their tools from the 60s and 70s and they are amazing.

 

[_brian_]

To address what I am looking for, needs not yet met:
- E10 and E11 in 1/4 inch drive
- Square plug sockets for oil drains - 8, 10, 11, 12, etc mm sizes
- M14, M16, M18 triple square bit sockets for brakes and suspension, stubby, normal and long

I would also like to hear opinions on Bergen / US Pro. They are a budget brand?

 

[dukefx]

To address what I am looking for, needs not yet met:
- E10 and E11 in 1/4 inch drive
- Square plug sockets for oil drains - 8, 10, 11, 12, etc mm sizes
- M14, M16, M18 triple square bit sockets for brakes and suspension, stubby, normal and long

I would also like to hear opinions on Bergen / US Pro. They are a budget brand?

- E10 should be easy enough. They are available from pretty much every brand we mentioned. E11 in 1/4 drive is not so common but far from impossible to get. If I remember correctly Vigor has an E-Torx set that includes 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 drives. The 3/8 drives totally overlap the 1/4 and 1/2, meaning you'd still have a full set even without any of the 3/8. I think it includes E11 in 1/4 drive, but don't quote me on that. Check vigor-equipment.com or whatever their website is.
- Square plug sockets for oil drains... I was never in the market for such. I only need 1, not even sure what size, but every year when I change the oil in one of our lawn mowers I ask my neighbor for his. Maybe I should get one of my own.
- Oh, you mean XZN... I somehow thought of the double square because we don't call them triple square here but XZN. I even have a few C8 bits just in case but never needed them.
- Sorry, never even heard of those brands.

 

[F-22]

A lot of good tools are sold at hardware stores. Is Knipex bad because you can get Cobras basically everywhere? Is Felo or NWS bad because they are sold at Obi as Lux rebrands? I kinda fail to see your point here. The cheap part I can understand, but Polish labor is cheap and you don't have to worry about shipping from China and import fees which also helps to keep the prices low.

Are the Topex tools actually made in Poland? I assume they just rebrand stuff for the most part
Hardware stores are one thing, the topex are sold at generic non-hardware stores like Spar. Not that it should impact quality... By the way, the Lux tools you mentioned are only the top tier Lux tools (5 star logo or something like that), the rest are more generic, kind of like Topex.


But hey, no point in arguing I guess topex is also fine but I'd only buy that in a pinch and sooner buy proxxon (that said, I don't see myself buying proxxon normally either...).

 

[dukefx]

We are still talking about Neo, not Topex. A bit confusing that the main company and one of their brands is also called Topex. Yes, Neo tools are made in Poland in their own factory. Topex on the other hand is their junk line that's Chinese import. They have like 4 other brands like Vorel and can't remember what else. I don't know about those.

Lux stuff may vary in quality and I don't consider Felo (wears too quickly) and NWS (sometimes poor finish) top dog either, but they are good enough. They have mostly German suppliers, but I agree, not everything made in Germany is top notch. They also sell some tools of questionable quality. Still much better than Holex for example. I once held one of their engineers squares in my hand. Right angle: fail. Scratches: yes, lots of them. Edges that could slit your throat: sure thing. Smooth surface: you wish. The 2 pieces tightly fastened together: nope. It's basically German junkware.

 

[ultgar]

Does anyone here, especially those in the Europe area, have anything to share on BGS technic tools? I saw a few threads on the brand, but nothing recent and not much in the information shared. I have been working on Euro cars a bit more than normal and have needed to add some tools to my collection, such as a T80 long impact socket, a few M14 triple square bit sockets, E11 socket, H11 bit socket, etc. Finding these tools here in the US is not so easy. Sure we have some from a few brands, but they are quite costly and rarely found in any sets. Example most sets exclude the E11 and have the E10 in 3/8 drive and not in 1/4 drive where it is often needed due to size.

In my search, I satisfied a few of my needs with Bergen / US Pro, but it seems that BGS offers a higher quality tool. I am hoping someone can share experiences as my opinions after only little use does not really cut it. Plus, looks can be deceiving, nothing can compare to the opinion of someone who has used the tools day in and day out for years. My searching is mostly on Amazon as in some cases shipping is free or reasonable. Otherwise, most I find are shipped from the UK at high prices, often making the tool more expensive than the expensive ones I can find here. I am well aware of the top brands like Hazet, Wera, Wiha, Gedore, etc, however, I am not in the market for that class of tool for general tools. Example, I use primarily Vessel Megadora JAWS cross point drivers for such needs, but I do not spend the money for the same brand for slotted, just not worth it for my uses.

Any comments are welcome. I do not need the best of the best, but I also prefer to get a reasonable quality brand vs a no name, cheap chrome plated that chips off socket. It seems that BGS is good, family owned, etc, which seems to fit the values wanted over big box. I also wanted to point out that I like the satin finish I am finding vs the polished chrome that is common here.

EDIT

I wanted to add... feel free to mention C of O. However, this is not a sticking point for me. In general, for example, my opinion is that a Taiwan tool is better than a China tool, but that is an initial opinion. Actual use of the tool might prove otherwise. Personally I rank tools in order: Japan, Germany, US as to where they are actually made. I am also aware that BGS tools are not made in Germany, but they are a German company. I understand the difference.

If you want a basic torx socket set, you might want to try this 16pc set from USAG........see https://www.ultimategarage.com/shop/part.php?products_id=8570 . Cheap at $29/set (with a case) plus they have a US warranty. BTW, I've never run across a fastener requiring an E11 socket. Facom and USAG don't even offer this size in any drive.

 

[Odd-job]

Wow, thank you all for this information. This is more than I was expecting. I have learned myself many new brands of tools that I have not heard of before. One thing that surprised me is that triple square is also rare in Europe.

I am very aware of ISO and DIN standards, but TUV is new to me. I will look this up for myself.

I would not say I am on a low budget, but I am looking for tools that work vs those that have a fancy name on them. I also consider quality in terms of value, if my needs are met with a $10 tool, there is no reason to buy the $50 tool. What matters to me is fitment. I can deal with things like rough edges, poor looks, etc, but as I mentioned, the tool needs to be functional. This is different than my normal tools that I use daily... at least for now, the tools discussed here are not used often at all. I simply want to have reasonable quality tools in my box when I need them.

In the US here we have a brand, Tekton. They are as F-22 said, a supermarket brand. I will say that just because they have such retailers does not reduce the tool quality. I would buy Tekton over Gearwrench. I have Gearwrench tools from their very start, my first set being branded GearRatchet. They were good, they are now China rebranders. Their Taiwan products are great and I treasure them. SK is also not US anymore, unfortunately. I have many of their tools from the 60s and 70s and they are amazing.

If you happen to be US based, would just stick with the Taiwan made Tekton, Astro Pneumatic, Gearwrench, Carlyle (on sale), Icon, VIM, Titan, EZ Red, autoparts stores, etc. stuff as the quality is pretty consistent across the board unless the Euro offerings have a unique feature like satin finish that you are after.

 

[F-22]

We are still talking about Neo, not Topex. A bit confusing that the main company and one of their brands is also called Topex. Yes, Neo tools are made in Poland in their own factory. Topex on the other hand is their junk line that's Chinese import. They have like 4 other brands like Vorel and can't remember what else. I don't know about those.

Lux stuff may vary in quality and I don't consider Felo (wears too quickly) and NWS (sometimes poor finish) top dog either, but they are good enough. They have mostly German suppliers, but I agree, not everything made in Germany is top notch. They also sell some tools of questionable quality. Still much better than Holex for example. I once held one of their engineers squares in my hand. Right angle: fail. Scratches: yes, lots of them. Edges that could slit your throat: sure thing. Smooth surface: you wish. The 2 pieces tightly fastened together: nope. It's basically German junkware.

Oh okay, I did not know about Neo. I checked the Neo catalogue. They have a very complete offering! I am certain most stuff is imported though, but probably nice quality and really good warranty. I wonder which tools are truly made in Poland. The regular wrenches look like they could be theirs. I'm certain the ratcheting wrenches aren't (cause I think noone besides Gedore makes them in Europe), pliers etc... Probably everything with the laser etched name, since that is done after the tool is already made and finished (for a bunch of manufacturers, they just stick their own branding on the chrome with a laser...).


Holex is just the cheap hoffmann brand, it's usually low end imported stuff from asia. The high end Hoffmann brand is Garant which does have really nice stuff like rebranded pb swiss screwdrivers or stahlwille socket sets...

 

[Kasal]

I don't have anything from BGS but at first glance they don't look like quality tools. I have some KingTony and Toptul, they are good tools for me (Weekend Gamer). But what you are looking for may be available from Usag (like Facom but a little cheaper).

 

[dukefx]

cause I think noone besides Gedore makes them in Europe

Laser engraving means absolutely nothing. Apart from your example here are 3 more variations:

Both Stahlwille types: made in Germany (laser engraved, also kind of a unique shape, but still flat and laser engraved)
Wera Jokers: made in Chez Republic (unique and embossed)
Hazet ratcheting combination wrenches: made in Taiwan (unique and embossed)

Sure, it's convenient to order ratcheting wrenches with a flat surface and laser engrave, but that's not always the case. Some manufacturers do it to cut production time and cost, and some insist that the Taiwanese manufacturer produce them in their signature style. You never know until you spend hours of research looking for that ****** COO.

Holex is just the cheap hoffmann brand, it's usually low end imported stuff from asia. The high end Hoffmann brand is Garant which does have really nice stuff like rebranded pb swiss screwdrivers or stahlwille socket sets...

I know about the Hoffman group, but how is "made in Germany" imported? The **** I saw was German made. COO was crystal clear. Hoffmann USA even advertises them as German made: Holex tools, built in Germany and sold exclusively in the United States by Hoffmann Group, are precision, German made tools designed to perform for years of... blablabla

 

[F-22]

Both Stahlwille types: made in Germany (laser engraved, also kind of a unique shape, but still flat and laser engraved)
Wera Jokers: made in Chez Republic (unique and embossed)
Hazet ratcheting combination wrenches: made in Taiwan (unique and embossed)

Stahlwille is made in Taiwan.
Hazet is made in Taiwan as you say yourself.

Wera is most likely also made in Taiwan, as in this quote:

The Joker wrenches are forged and plated in Taiwan complete with ratcheting box ends and shipped to CZ for final assembly and packaging. COO marking? CZ. I was told that by a Wera rep back when they first came out.

COO definitions are only strict in the USA. In case of Wera, it seems that if the products are packaged in CZ, they can already give them that mark.
For the mark of made in Germany:

The Stuttgart Higher Regional Court made a start in 1995 and defined the decisive criteria for the designation Made in Germany. In 2002, this ruling was further substantiated by the Stuttgart Regional Court. The following three aspects are decisive:

significant production in Germany
final assembly in Germany
decisive share of value added in Germany

Guess final assembly can be very loosely defined, and god knows what the requirements are for "Made in CZ". Maybe that's also why Wera tools aren't marked "made in Germany"? Their requirements prevent them from selling Taiwan tools like that?

 

[dukefx]

KCTool lists the Jokers as CZ (so does RS-Online). It's a US company and they get their info directly from the manufacturer. According to the info from "the Wera rep" you mentioned they are basically subject to prosecution in the US. The info for Holex COO is also from the US rep of the Hoffmann group. Same here? Are companies constantly lying? Besides... even if we look at German laws... what "final assembly" or packaging or anything can a Holex engineers square get? It's just 2 machined metal pieces screwed together with no packaging and it clearly said made in Germany.

 

[dutchgray]

BGS is cheap junk like all the other cheap import brands, mostly will work but nothing special.
I have a set of XZN bits that I needed a couple sizes of once and they needed to be cheap, they did the job fine but It was low torque, only used them about 3 times in total.

 

[richfinn]

Thanks for the replies, and I have looked at each reply. Could I ask this... has anyone used BGS tools? I am looking at costs here, and the prices that are required to get the top brands. These are tools I am not going to use daily. Toptul is for sure a good brand and as I understand, they make their own tools. I do not have enough info on Euro brands to comment on them. Ko-ken is an amazing brand, and it comes at a price. I have one tool from that brand and I love it.

I've seen guys using BGS branded socket sets and tool carts in UK workshops, don't really know much else about them.

I almost exclusively buy Ko-ken sockets nowadays from UKTOOLS.COM

Wrenches I bought Stahlwille from Primetools

Screwdrivers I buy Vessel from ebay

I only buy when stuff is on special offer though and Ialready have a lot of older tool truck stuff

I don't think I would bother going "ultra budget" with basic hand tools to be honest, those three brands are priced reasonably for the excellent quality you get in my opinion

 

[F-22]

they are basically subject to prosecution in the US. The info for Holex COO is also from the US rep of the Hoffmann group. Same here? Are companies constantly lying?

Yes they're lying because it does not matter. What kind of persecution can the US make if the Czech say those things are made in CZ? I assume the US laws are mostly about who can be using the "made in USA" designation, and requiring products to have COO marked. If Wera is selling Taiwan tools marked as made in CZ, it's really the Czech which should persecute Wera.

Check out Weras socket sets. Individual sockets are made in Taiwan, but a set is made in CZ? Do you really believe they import individual sockets but then also make totally identical sockets in CZ but only use them to form the set? Their small ratchet is also made in taiwan but the wrench ratchets and larger ratchets aren't? Clearly they have a forge in Taiwan that stamps out the unique wera metal handle for the small ratchet - but then they'd make another tooling to stamp the big ratchet in CZ?

They're clearly lying with the sockets so I'm not buying they're honest with other things. I assume they manufacture screwdrivers in the czech republic, perhaps also the allen keys, but I assume almost everything else is imported.

And I have lots of wera tools. Nothing wrong with them...

Edit: Besides, thinking about it more, Hazet and Stahlwille are most famous for their wrenches (even more so than Gedore), and they export the production of the ratcheting wrenches to Taiwan. Wera only started making wrenches and sockets recently, and must've definitely outsourced all of that production to Taiwan. The joker wrenches aren't mass produced, they only started getting more known and popular. No sense in (relatively small) Wera investing R&D into designing unique ratchets when the Taiwanese tool makers can offer better designs than they'd come up with anyway, meanwhile the historical hand tool brands like hazet and stahlwille do not seem to think r&d and setting up production for it would be worth it either (and those two undoubtedly already have ratchet production in Germany so it would cost them far less than Wera which would need to come up with everything from scratch).

 

[dukefx]

Yes they're lying because it does not matter. What kind of persecution can the US make if the Czech say those things are made in CZ? I assume the US laws are mostly about who can be using the "made in USA" designation, and requiring products to have COO marked. If Wera is selling Taiwan tools marked as made in CZ, it's really the Czech which should persecute Wera.

That's not how it works. If you want to sell your stuff in a foreign country you abide by THEIR laws. If the Chez are OK with the label, that's their right. Laws regarding COO are always local. Lawyers in the US could simply fine the company or ban Wera tools from the US entirely. I don't think they'd risk it. It's a big market.

Check out Weras socket sets. Individual sockets are made in Taiwan, but a set is made in CZ? Do you really believe they import individual sockets but then also make totally identical sockets in CZ but only use them to form the set?

The sets are correctly labeled as made in TW, the sockets on the textile rail at least. I didn't check heavily mixed sets, but I assume some sort of majority rule applies. A Stihl chainsaw isn't labeled made in China either just because they use Chinese carburetors and a few other parts.

Edit: disregard that. It was the plastic rails I saw (small thumbnail, sorry) and they labeled as TW. TW sockets and CN rail. The ones with the textile rail are labeled az CZ, so TW sockets and CN rail. Both rails are made in China. Interesting. So... CN + TW = TW and CN + TW = CZ, got it

Their small ratchet is also made in taiwan but the wrench ratchets and larger ratchets aren't? Clearly they have a forge in Taiwan that stamps out the unique wera metal handle for the small ratchet - but then they'd make another tooling to stamp the big ratchet in CZ?

No. Their small ratchet is made by Rotar according to the clients specifications. I don't think Wera has any kind of forge in TW. They simply place an order and tell the Taiwanese manufacturer how to customize their base model. It's what everyone does.

They're clearly lying with the sockets so I'm not buying they're honest with other things. I assume they manufacture screwdrivers in the czech republic, perhaps also the allen keys, but I assume almost everything else is imported.

And I have lots of wera tools. Nothing wrong with them...

I wouldn't go that far. Meanwhile I was out doing chores and thought a bit about it. I mentioned that the Stahlwille ratcheting wrenches are made in Germany (according to 2 separate sources, 1 in the US). Stahlwille also has ratcheting screwdrivers that are labeled made in TW. Why label one made in Germany and the other made in Taiwan if that is not the case? Doesn't look they are trying to hide anything.

 

[_brian_]

Oh, you mean XZN... I somehow thought of the double square because we don't call them triple square here but XZN. I even have a few C8 bits just in case but never needed them.

Yes, by triple square I do mean XZN. I have a set of double square / 8 point sockets, but those are probably my least used sockets. I am not sure what "C8" bits are though. An internet search tells me it is some sort of carbide grade of steel?

If you happen to be US based, would just stick with the Taiwan made Tekton, Astro Pneumatic, Gearwrench, Carlyle (on sale), Icon, VIM, Titan, EZ Red, autoparts stores, etc. stuff as the quality is pretty consistent across the board unless the Euro offerings have a unique feature like satin finish that you are after.

That is what I have purchased and used for the last 30+ years. I agree with you for the most part, but in this case, the tools I mentioned are not really available in those brands. I have a Gearwrench external torx set, 13 piece, 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 drive with E4 to E24, but no E11. This is why I landed on Euro brand tools as the specific tools I mentioned seem to be common in those brands and sets whereas here, they are not.

Not to go far off topic, but Gearwrench is mostly China made now. Their Taiwan stuff is good for sure, but the China made tools, specifically ratcheting wrenches, are junk. I would never buy ICON. While I do not have any, others I know tried them and the sockets wear out fast, China made Sears Craftsman being more durable. Now Tekton, Astro and VIM, those are winners for value and performance. Carlyle is a bit expensive so value is not there, as you also stated, get them on special. Sunex and ARES are also good tools, they are just more rebranders, but the selections are decent quality and hold up well.

You mentioned Titan, which brings me to another question of sorts... warranty. In the US it is common for "good" brands to offer a lifetime warranty. This seems very specific to the US. I spoke with a rep at Vessel on their warranty and warranty is something they have only introduced for US customers. Further research shows me that tool brands outside of the US do not focus on warranty, while in the US it seems a requirement of sorts. What do the non US GJ users think about that? I have my feelings, which is that in the US tools are more abused and we expect the brand to replace a tool that we broke via misuse. I have broken a handful of tools over the years and I would say that only two of them were truly a manufacturer defect of sorts.

There has also been a large discussion on COO. I really appreciate that as the info is good, but I also wonder how relevant it really is in modern times. In the US, Snap-On is generally considered the gold standard of tools. But when you look at their product line, you will find tools made in China and Taiwan. Yes, their core tools (wrenches, sockets, etc) are made in US. Milwaukee Tool is another brand considered the top of the cordless and power tool market, those tools no longer made in the US. The truck brands like Mac and Matco, mostly rebranded now. That said, rebrands are not inherently bad. Matco sells a lot made by Astro for example, and Astro provides a good tool. My only gripe on rebranded tools are when the price is marked up for no reason.

 

[Odd-job]

I have a Gearwrench external torx set, 13 piece, 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 drive with E4 to E24, but no E11. This is why I landed on Euro brand tools as the specific tools I mentioned seem to be common in those brands and sets whereas here, they are not.

I see what you are getting at. Sorry for missing the ask. Definitely frustrating the way US sets are specified, such as the common E10 is usually in 3/8 size rather 1/4. Have a couple of US sets similar to the Gearwrench set you have, but have been supplementing with specialty sockets from mostly Koken like the 1/4 short E10 and 1/4 E10 universal swivel. Still looking for a stubby 1/4 E10, but only Snap On seems to make that.

COO definitely means less these days with quality control being more important. On balance the Taiwan sourced hand tools seem to be better than China as a COO and heck give a lot of other countries a run for their money.

 

[F-22]

Yes, by triple square I do mean XZN. I have a set of double square / 8 point sockets, but those are probably my least used sockets. I am not sure what "C8" bits are though. An internet search tells me it is some sort of carbide grade of steel?



That is what I have purchased and used for the last 30+ years. I agree with you for the most part, but in this case, the tools I mentioned are not really available in those brands. I have a Gearwrench external torx set, 13 piece, 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 drive with E4 to E24, but no E11. This is why I landed on Euro brand tools as the specific tools I mentioned seem to be common in those brands and sets whereas here, they are not.

Not to go far off topic, but Gearwrench is mostly China made now. Their Taiwan stuff is good for sure, but the China made tools, specifically ratcheting wrenches, are junk. I would never buy ICON. While I do not have any, others I know tried them and the sockets wear out fast, China made Sears Craftsman being more durable. Now Tekton, Astro and VIM, those are winners for value and performance. Carlyle is a bit expensive so value is not there, as you also stated, get them on special. Sunex and ARES are also good tools, they are just more rebranders, but the selections are decent quality and hold up well.

You mentioned Titan, which brings me to another question of sorts... warranty. In the US it is common for "good" brands to offer a lifetime warranty. This seems very specific to the US. I spoke with a rep at Vessel on their warranty and warranty is something they have only introduced for US customers. Further research shows me that tool brands outside of the US do not focus on warranty, while in the US it seems a requirement of sorts. What do the non US GJ users think about that? I have my feelings, which is that in the US tools are more abused and we expect the brand to replace a tool that we broke via misuse. I have broken a handful of tools over the years and I would say that only two of them were truly a manufacturer defect of sorts.

There has also been a large discussion on COO. I really appreciate that as the info is good, but I also wonder how relevant it really is in modern times. In the US, Snap-On is generally considered the gold standard of tools. But when you look at their product line, you will find tools made in China and Taiwan. Yes, their core tools (wrenches, sockets, etc) are made in US. Milwaukee Tool is another brand considered the top of the cordless and power tool market, those tools no longer made in the US. The truck brands like Mac and Matco, mostly rebranded now. That said, rebrands are not inherently bad. Matco sells a lot made by Astro for example, and Astro provides a good tool. My only gripe on rebranded tools are when the price is marked up for no reason.

Yes, I do not believe anyone expects to get a lifetime warranty on tools over here in Europe. One year is most common, sometimes a bit more. I doubt the tools are used or abused more in the US, that's just a totally personal thing... Maybe the warranties are shorter because more commonly it's businesses that buy tools in Europe and supply them to their workers, while in many cases (like mechanics) the workers buy and use their own tools? So businesses aren't as concerned with warranties while individuals are?

Totally anecdotal but just yesterday I took some photos of a screwdriver I noticed somewhere at work. Made by PB Swiss, marketed as garant, so it's definitely one of the best on the market. But I think it is the most worn screwdriver I ever saw, the ph2 tip just became a point and the handle disintegrated. May be cause it's used near ceramics (very abrasive), and after the tip was useless they kept using it for poking some things, but just found it interesting how worn it is haha

The COO stuff really turned into some bickering, sorry

 

[Monte]

Condor Werkzeug
another source....

www.condorwerkzeug.de

 

[mslim]

Not sure how exchange rates are with your local currency, but have been ordering Koken and other Japanese brands from Amazon Japan. They might even be superior to some of the top Euro brands you mentioned above. Given the global currency volatility, I have been buying more Japanese tools than US branded Taiwanese tools as of late.

Not sure if you live in the USA or not but the shipping from Japan is always the deal breaker for me.

 

[dukefx]

Yes, by triple square I do mean XZN. I have a set of double square / 8 point sockets, but those are probably my least used sockets. I am not sure what "C8" bits are though. An internet search tells me it is some sort of carbide grade of steel?

C8 is an 8 mm, or 5/16 bit. Much like C6 and E6 are 1/4 bits.

 

[f121]

In the UK we 100% expect lifetime warranty on decent tools, most people use it as point of comparison. It's not just high end euro/us tools that have lifetime warranty, the decent rebranders do too. Sealey Premier, Halfords Advanced, Draper expert are all rebranded Chinese/Taiwanese tools with a lifetime warranty - I recently warrantied a Draper Expert ratchet I bought about 18 years ago. It's not that I expect to break my tools through abuse, but a lifetime warranty on a cheap tool tells me its built strong enough to last a few years.

People get way to hung up on COO. We tend not to worry about that for tools in the UK, just car parts.

I would also like to hear opinions on Bergen / US Pro. They are a budget brand?

Some of their stuff is great. My favourite 1/2" ratchet is a long 72t US Pro, I've been beating on it for years with no issues. Amazing quality for $20. Bergen tend to feel slightly cheaper, I have a bunch of Bergen 'standard' sockets and they do the job fine, just aren't as nicely finished as sealey etc. Other stuff looks worse made, stuff like pullers and Ball joint splitters looks like very cheap meral. I probably wouldn't bother to import US pro/Bergen, would assume you can buy the same thing locally.

 

[dukefx]

In the UK we 100% expect lifetime warranty on decent tools, most people use it as point of comparison. It's not just high end euro/us tools that have lifetime warranty, the decent rebranders do too. Sealey Premier, Halfords Advanced, Draper expert are all rebranded Chinese/Taiwanese tools with a lifetime warranty - I recently warrantied a Draper Expert ratchet I bought about 18 years ago. It's not that I expect to break my tools through abuse, but a lifetime warranty on a cheap tool tells me its built strong enough to last a few years.

I think there's a difference between warranty and warranty. In most of the EU it goes something like this:

Exclusions:
- Natural wear (not including rapid wear due to defect)
- Using the tool for purposes that it was not intended for (using a screwdriver as a pry bar or most other tools as a hammer, etc.)
- Failure due to improper care (lack of maintenance, mishandling etc.)

What you get a warranty for:
- Initial defect (doesn't work right out of the box, or has a poor finish like something wasn't ground away that should have been, or has deformities, etc.)
- Doesn't meat advertised specs, meaning it breaks easily, wasn't heat treated when it should have been, etc.

As you can see it hardly matters if you get a 10 year, 5000 year, or infinite warranty because those defects will present themselves early on. At best it's an indicator for how much the manufacturer trusts their product under normal circumstances. Otherwise companies that are not tool truck companies or similar suppliers will either have to heavily overprice their tools like the tool truck companies or face warranty abuse. In the US if I buy a slotted screwdriver with a lifetime warranty at lets say Home Depot and use it as a chisel to split rocks, then 2 days later go back and say "yo, this one's f*cked, gimme another" and they do. They actually do. You can repeat this until you are the most hated person at Home Depot, but who cares.

People get way to hung up on COO. We tend not to worry about that for tools in the UK, just car parts.

Not really. It gives you a general idea of what to expect tho, like in case of car parts like you said. I'm not just talking about quality (i.e sturdiness), but manufacturing process. What I mean is tolerances and coating mainly. Chinese and Taiwanese Chrome will peal off sooner or later because they use a single layer of Chrome and that's it. Tolerances of my Facom sockets (TW) simply cannot compete with my Stahwilles (DE). Another example is the wobbly Proxxon ratchet I mentioned earlier. There are plenty of good Chinese and Taiwanese tools and I've seen a lot of poorly made German, USA, and Japanese tools as well, but you get the general idea.

 

[_brian_]

Definitely frustrating the way US sets are specified, such as the common E10 is usually in 3/8 size rather 1/4.

Yes, this is the bulk of my reasoning for looking at Euro brands. The E10 is a great example, 3/8 drive is most common, and it is also often too large to fit where needed. The E11 is the same, but 3/8 drive works more often than it foes for the E10. I guess those could be considered "specialty" tools for the US market as the applications in question are Euro cars, I am not sure. I have to admit, I never knew the E11 size even existed before, it seems to be a "non standard" size, it is even missing on the Wiha chart (https://www.wihatools.com/pages/external-torx-head-sizes).

I was able to find an external torx set that meets my needs. It is BGS 6402 and includes E4-E11 all in 1/4 drive. It was only $18 shipped, so although the opinions do not seem to favor the brand, it is cheap enough to try. Those are all low torque sizes, so I think worth the risk to give it a try. I really appreciate the opinions shared on the brand. My first impression was they provided a higher quality tool than it seems they do.

The COO stuff really turned into some bickering, sorry

No worries at all. I am mostly neutral on COO, but it does matter to me. It is always good to know where tools are made, and as I understand it, outside of the US brands are not required to disclose COO. The value for me is a sort of caution flag. If I see a tool is made in Japan, I am expecting a good tool. If I find made in Taiwan I usually expect good, but seeing made in China requires me to look more closely at the tool. Some are good and some are bad. I assume that German made tools are quality, although I do not own any. The Wiha tools I have are not made in Germany, just German brand.

I probably wouldn't bother to import US pro/Bergen, would assume you can buy the same thing locally.

Yes, I agree in general, however, US Pro / Bergen offers some that locally are hard to find. One example is a 3 inch 1/2 drive T80. I was able to get one advertised as Bergen (but shipped US Pro) for $14 shipped, which is something I cannot do with US available brands. The same is true for the E10/E11 portion above, the E11 is more rare here and the E10 is common in 3/8, not 1/4. I guess for me, the use of US Pro / Bergen and BGS is more because they offer a tool at a price that I cannot get here.... not really that I want the brand, especially after hearing the thoughts on the brands here.

Another question I have after looking at Euro tools is the drive sizes. I find that for example, 3/8 drive is marked as also 10mm. However, 1/4 is 6.3mm and 1/2 is 12.5mm. Why would 3/8 be 10mm and not 9.5mm? I wish the drive sizes were metric, but that is not likely to happen in my lifetime. Something like 7mm, 10mm and 13mm would be so much easier. I might actually think that 6/10/14 is even better.

 

[_brian_]

Not really. It gives you a general idea of what to expect tho, like in case of car parts like you said. I'm not just talking about quality (i.e sturdiness), but manufacturing process. What I mean is tolerances and coating mainly. Chinese and Taiwanese Chrome will peal off sooner or later because they use a single layer of Chrome and that's it. Tolerances of my Facom sockets (TW) simply cannot compete with my Stahwilles (DE). Another example is the wobbly Proxxon ratchet I mentioned earlier. There are plenty of good Chinese and Taiwanese tools and I've seen a lot of poorly made German, USA, and Japanese tools as well, but you get the general idea.

This matches my general thoughts exactly. It is an indicator of what you should expect.

 

[f121]

I think there's a difference between warranty and warranty. In most of the EU it goes something like this:

Exclusions:
- Natural wear (not including rapid wear due to defect)
- Using the tool for purposes that it was not intended for (using a screwdriver as a pry bar or most other tools as a hammer, etc.)
- Failure due to improper care (lack of maintenance, mishandling etc.)

What you get a warranty for:
- Initial defect (doesn't work right out of the box, or has a poor finish like something wasn't ground away that should have been, or has deformities, etc.)
- Doesn't meat advertised specs, meaning it breaks easily, wasn't heat treated when it should have been, etc.

As you can see it hardly matters if you get a 10 year, 5000 year, or infinite warranty because those defects will present themselves early on. At best it's an indicator for how much the manufacturer trusts their product under normal circumstances. Otherwise companies that are not tool truck companies or similar suppliers will either have to heavily overprice their tools like the tool truck companies or face warranty abuse. In the US if I buy a slotted screwdriver with a lifetime warranty at lets say Home Depot and use it as a chisel to split rocks, then 2 days later go back and say "yo, this one's f*cked, gimme another" and they do. They actually do. You can repeat this until you are the most hated person at Home Depot, but who cares.


Not really. It gives you a general idea of what to expect tho, like in case of car parts like you said. I'm not just talking about quality (i.e sturdiness), but manufacturing process. What I mean is tolerances and coating mainly. Chinese and Taiwanese Chrome will peal off sooner or later because they use a single layer of Chrome and that's it. Tolerances of my Facom sockets (TW) simply cannot compete with my Stahwilles (DE). Another example is the wobbly Proxxon ratchet I mentioned earlier. There are plenty of good Chinese and Taiwanese tools and I've seen a lot of poorly made German, USA, and Japanese tools as well, but you get the general idea.

I'm talking about scenarios like 'I've used a socket for 20 years and it just cracked' or 'the reverse lever just snapped off my 4yo ratchet' or 'my 15yo ratchet doesn't ratchet anymore', all of which I have claimed for from Sealey or Draper.

 

[dukefx]

Yes, that's like in the US. The ratcheting mechanism is a wear part and if your socket didn't snap in 20 years it snapped due to structural weakness from frequent use (wear) or abuse. You wouldn't get a replacement for these here.

The only tool I ever sent back was a Knipex pliers wrench. The first bolt head I tried it on left a serious mark on the jaws.

 

[Odd-job]

Not sure if you live in the USA or not but the shipping from Japan is always the deal breaker for me.

Seems like over $100 Amazon Japan "bulk shipping" starts to pencil out vs prices from US vendors like Palmac, etc.