Failed junk from China

[Mr_B]

For-Profit corporations exist solely to make a profit. A corporations primary directive is to produce a good or service at the lowest possible cost and to sell that good or service at the maximum price the market will support. While people can debate the social morality of corporations, the fact is that corporations and capitalism have lifted more people out of poverty than an other socio-economic system.

Who is more greedy, Snap-on who sells tools at over inflated prices or Craftsman who imports overseas tools to sell at affordable prices? Both companies employ different strategies to arrive at the same result: maximize profits.

Here is something interesting.

https://ycharts.com/companies/SNA/profit_margin

Snap-on's profit margins have grown 50% over the past 5 years.

I would suggest that Snap-on's margin increases are due to less competition as industrial tool sellers consolidate and that Craftsman profit margins (poor Sears management withstanding) are decreasing in part from increased competition in the DIY market.

While it may be popular to denounce greedy corporations as the scourge of mankind, most people would be sitting naked and near starving in straw huts without them.

capitalism and want for easy profit is likely going full circle and will be creating as much poverty as it cured if no changes are made to balance easy profit to sustainable domestic economy . Basically common sense is needed as current business mode is going end up with a bankrupt domestic economy .

 

[visionguru]

I had two Chinese made items fail on me this weekend.

The first was a Harbor Freight 25" breaker bar with chrome peeling off end of handle. (I didn't notice peeling chrome on end of handle when I bought it yesterday.) The chrome is peeling in large pieces and I ended up with a chrome sliver in my hand. I couldn't wait to order an American made one and I don't know any local retailers selling an American made one.

The second is a Torin Big Red two ton floor jack I bought over the winter. I only use it for my riding mower, but it failed today and no longer stays up. I am not aware of anybody making this size floor jack in the USA today. Not sure what to do about floor jack since I need one and none are made in the USA that I know of.

I never saw "chrome peeling" on the store shelves. Old/used/rusty, sometimes. New, never, even those dollar store things. Without a picture, I tend to think you are making things up.

As for floor jack, I think most likely you didn't maintain the jack well (such as bleed air out and add jack oil). I have a Craftsman 3ton jack. 2 years ago, it won't go up fully anymore. 10 minutes of bleeding air/add oil, the jack works like new again.

Jack is a simple device. Most complaints are probably due to the incompetence of the user. You spend more on Made in USA, but fail to maintain it, you will end up with the same result.

 

[kythri]

My comment about corporate greed was meant to be sarcastic. I fully support the profit motive of corporations whether it is to jack up prices or reduce costs. Overall it allows a much broader range of tools that fit within their many people's budgets and needs.

Oh, that wasn't directed towards you - I caught your sarcasm.

 

[MUD DAWG]

For-Profit corporations exist solely to make a profit. A corporations primary directive is to produce a good or service at the lowest possible cost and to sell that good or service at the maximum price the market will support. While people can debate the social morality of corporations, the fact is that corporations and capitalism have lifted more people out of poverty than an other socio-economic system.

Who is more greedy, Snap-on who sells tools at over inflated prices or Craftsman who imports overseas tools to sell at affordable prices? Both companies employ different strategies to arrive at the same result: maximize profits.

Here is something interesting.

https://ycharts.com/companies/SNA/profit_margin

Snap-on's profit margins have grown 50% over the past 5 years.

I would suggest that Snap-on's margin increases are due to less competition as industrial tool sellers consolidate and that Craftsman profit margins (poor Sears management withstanding) are decreasing in part from increased competition in the DIY market.

While it may be popular to denounce greedy corporations as the scourge of mankind, most people would be sitting naked and near starving in straw huts without them.

Good arguement and well said. But how do you explain executive compensations going through the stratosphere in the last 20 years, while the Labour force compensation is in retreat?

 

[JazzBlueRT]

capitalism and want for easy profit is likely going full circle and will be creating as much poverty as it cured if no changes are made to balance easy profit to sustainable domestic economy . Basically common sense is needed as current business mode is going end up with a bankrupt domestic economy .

Capitalism is kept in check by competition. When government impedes competition or favors one corporation over another, it creates crony capitalism and we all end up suffering. I think many of the regulations in place nowadays are put there to impede competition. I guess I should stop here because this is not the place to discuss politics.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

Good arguement and well said. But how do you explain executive compensations going through the stratosphere in the last 20 years, while the Labour force compensation is in retreat?

Globalism is suppressing wages, you have 7 billion people to compete with you who will work twice as hard for a fraction of your pay. Conversely, this creates millions of new customers and markets for the large corporations which also increases revenues and profitability.

The top executive pay is usually determined by some performance metrics. If the CEO increases profits by $10 billion, is an additional $10 million excessive pay? How many other people could do that? It seems unfair, but if you distribute that $10 million CEO pay to all 250k workers at say, Walmart, it equals about $40 extra a year. Does $40 a year make a difference to the workers? Would another CEO who would do the job for less, run the company into the ground and cause those 250k workers to lose their job?

 

[MUD DAWG]

The top executive pay is usually determined by some performance metrics. If the CEO increases profits by $10 billion, is an additional $10 million excessive pay? How many other people could do that? It seems unfair, but if you distribute that $10 million CEO pay to all 250k workers at say, Walmart, it equals about $40 extra a year. Does $40 a year make a difference to the workers? Would another CEO who would do the job for less, run the company into the ground and cause those 250k workers to lose their job?

Problem is, the CEO is so fixed on the short term to meet that bonus, that he won't give a damn about the long term or who gets hurt. He'll nickel and dime the lowest paid, which won't have the resources to fight back. And if the government isn't watching, the CEO will polute and pillage the environment while he's at it.

CEOs won't give a damn if a worker gets hurt or dies of cancer, unless they're forced into it. This is where unions and regulations come in. The management team is well compensated and fully represented in court, so why shouldn't the workers?

Unions are necessary evil. They have lots of good, and lots of bad about them. I wish there was no need for them in the first place. But back to my original point. If anyone thinks unions are the cause of the middle class demise, then someone's head is buried very deep in the sand.

 

[PeterT]

I always buy AMERICAN MADE TOOLS

 

[JazzBlueRT]

Problem is, the CEO is so fixed on the short term to meet that bonus, that he won't give a damn about the long term or who gets hurt. He'll nickel and dime the lowest paid, which won't have the resources to fight back. And if the government isn't watching, the CEO will polute and pillage the environment while he's at it.

CEOs won't give a damn if a worker gets hurt or dies of cancer, unless they're forced into it. This is where unions and regulations come in. The management team is well compensated and fully represented in court, so why shouldn't the workers?

Unions are necessary evil. They have lots of good, and lots of bad about them. I wish there was no need for them in the first place. But back to my original point. If anyone thinks unions are the cause of the middle class demise, then someone's head is buried very deep in the sand.

I believe they teach in business school that there are no profits in the long term. From what I understand this means that in a truly competitive market, competition will destroy all profits. I cannot say I fully understand the advanced theories but at a low level it kinda makes sense. Competition should drive prices and margins down to the point where the company with the lowest fixed costs and most stable variable costs will cause all competitors to go out of business. Kinda like survival of the fittest and it causes CEO's to focus only on short term profits because they know their tenure has a limited shelf life.

There is a big role for government to play, in particular, to protect what is common to everyone (environments, water supply, trade, consumer protections, etc...), but that fails when corporations or special interest groups control government.

I find much of this fascinating, but I think we are getting on the fringe of political discussion which I will back off of.

 

[zendriver]

The top executive pay is usually determined by some performance metrics. If the CEO increases profits by $10 billion, is an additional $10 million excessive pay? How many other people could do that? It seems unfair, but if you distribute that $10 million CEO pay to all 250k workers at say, Walmart, it equals about $40 extra a year. Does $40 a year make a difference to the workers? Would another CEO who would do the job for less, run the company into the ground and cause those 250k workers to lose their job?

IMO, this is the same propaganda, they have tried spoonfeeding us forever and it just does not equal fact.

CEO's get that huge pay and bonuses, even if the company heads into the toilet, because all that loot is agreed by written contract before hand.

CEO's are hired and have their pay/bonuses set, by the Board of Directors, which, coincidentally, is made of of CEO's from other Companies.

Kind of like having the guys from the welding department, sit down and set the pay and benefits, for new hire welders.

A Walmart employee would not want an extra $40?

No one would want to be CEO of Walmart, only for the paltry $22 million a year wage the job currently pays?

 

[JazzBlueRT]

IMO, this is the same propaganda, they have tried spoonfeeding us forever and it just does not equal fact.

CEO's get that huge pay and bonuses, even if the company heads into the toilet, because all that loot is agreed by written contract before hand.

CEO's are hired and have their pay/bonuses set, by the Board of Directors, which, coincidentally, is made of of CEO's from other Companies.

Kind of like having the guys from the welding department, sit down and set the pay and benefits, for new hire welders.

A Walmart employee would not want an extra $40?

No one would want to be CEO of Walmart, only for the paltry $22 million a year wage the job currently pays?

C. Douglas Mcmillon/President and Chief Executive Officer of Walmart earns a base salary of 1,278,989 and another 4,851,561based upon company profitability. He also got awarded 15 million in restricted stock options which is not cash and not easily convertible into cash. It does provide an incentive to continue the growth and profitability of the company which provides a means of income for 250k other people.

http://insiders.morningstar.com/trading/executive-compensation.action?t=WMT

That headline number of $22 million falls apart pretty quickly.

Now compare that to LeBron James who gets paid $30 million in cash each year and then endorsement deals with $50 million more all off the backs of the people who can least afford to go to watch him play and who can least afford to purchase the products he advertises.

The CEO of Walmart runs a $300 billion enterprise that employes over 250,000 people, LeBron James contributes nothing but entertainment for the unwashed masses. Why do you believe CEO's are overpaid?

 

[dogdog]

I always buy AMERICAN MADE TOOLS

Lmfao you know your miller 211 welder you have,is assemble

In the USA and parts are made in China? Right unless you got that older transformer based 211.

 

[zendriver]

C. Douglas Mcmillon/President and Chief Executive Officer of Walmart earns a base salary of 1,278,989 and another 4,851,561based upon company profitability. He also got awarded 15 million in restricted stock options which is not cash and not easily convertible into cash. It does provide an incentive to continue the growth and profitability of the company which provides a means of income for 250k other people.

http://insiders.morningstar.com/trading/executive-compensation.action?t=WMT

That headline number of $22 million falls apart pretty quickly.

Now compare that to LeBron James who gets paid $30 million in cash each year and then endorsement deals with $50 million more all off the backs of the people who can least afford to go to watch him play and who can least afford to purchase the products he advertises.

The CEO of Walmart runs a $300 billion enterprise that employes over 250,000 people, LeBron James contributes nothing but entertainment for the unwashed masses. Why do you believe CEO's are overpaid?

Good catch. I quotedReuters, where $22 million was for total compensation, which he received, even though, Walmart had a 5.6% drop in profits and 11% the year before.

He still received a bonus, regardless, because that's how his pay is contracted.

I believe sports and movie stars are overpaid aswell and yes, I think many CEO make too much money. They don't make every decision themselves.

BTW The average Walmart store Manager, make less than $100,000 yr, which is not **** and IMO a pretty important jobs as well, where one WM store takes in $50 million, yr.in revenue.

I just never have been one to kiss executive ***, since my experiences, they are usually not all that.

 

[MUD DAWG]

I believe they teach in business school that there are no profits in the long term. From what I understand this means that in a truly competitive market, competition will destroy all profits. I cannot say I fully understand the advanced theories but at a low level it kinda makes sense. Competition should drive prices and margins down to the point where the company with the lowest fixed costs and most stable variable costs will cause all competitors to go out of business. Kinda like survival of the fittest and it causes CEO's to focus only on short term profits because they know their tenure has a limited shelf life.

There is a big role for government to play, in particular, to protect what is common to everyone (environments, water supply, trade, consumer protections, etc...), but that fails when corporations or special interest groups control government.

I find much of this fascinating, but I think we are getting on the fringe of political discussion which I will back off of.

I get the feeling you're a bit younger, which isn't a bad thing. You make good arguments and present them well. But give it a few years and you'll see a glimpse of what's behind the curtain, and who's pulling the puppot's strings.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

Good catch. I quotedReuters, where $22 million was for total compensation, which he received, even though, Walmart had a 5.6% drop in profits and 11% the year before.

He still received a bonus.

I believe sports and movie stars are overpaid as sell and yes, I think many CEO make too much money. They don't make every decision themselves.

BTW The average Walmart store Manager, make less than $100,000 yr, which is not **** and IMO a pretty important jobs as well, where one WM store takes in $50 million, yr.in revenue.

I just never have been one to kiss executive ***, since my experiences, they are usually not all that.

I do not believe in kissing executives butts either. My point is that blaming the executives and pointing to income disparity is a distraction from real structural and societal issues we have in this country.

The point about the $40 for each employee for the year is that it changes nothing. it doesn't even buy 1 ticket to see LeBron play

I believe the whole CEO against worker income disparity is just another ploy from bigger fish who wish to keep us divided. Everyone is so busy hating on each other, we miss what the real players are doing to us.

 

[GasNSteering]

The floor jack I bought is much smaller than a standard two or three ton model. Would I have any luck finding one of those made in the USA even in used? Someone on CL is selling a used one with a 1982 date on it and even 35 years they were made in Taiwan.

I guess I could get a Hein-Warner, but they are much larger than the Torin I have. There are rumors that they switched from Made in USA to Assembled in USA. Why pay a premium to buy Chinese parts put together in the USA?

A local hydraulics shop will rebuild floor jacks if they can get parts. I'll have to call them to see what they charge.

Sounds like a trolley jack.

 

[cherrybomb]

I do my best to buy Proto,SK,Williams USA Wright or Snappy.As a retire, I've bought a lot of tools (a sickness I know)I look for quality,performace and price.I don't expect to use my warranty.I upgrade when I see something I justa got of have.I know I could go HF for a better price,yes a warranty,but the inconvenience of going back,a real inconvenience to get a replacement,drives me to support my fellow USA worker .

 

[dnschmidt]

Cherrybomb, you've got to be kidding right. Now I've got no idea as to where you live with respect to a Harbor Freight, in my case I live within a mile, but calling the manufacturer to make a warranty claim, packing something up, taking it to the post office on your dime and mailing it to them and waiting at least a week for the replacement you find easier than walking into Harbor Freight giving it to them and their handing you a replacement within seconds? That's complete nonsense. Supporting your fellow American worker is well and fine and I get that but this argument that you're making with respect to the ease of warranty is completely invalid.

 

[M_George]

This all started back in the late nineties early 2000's. The US government was trying to boost trade with China. I remember they referred to China as the "Most Favored Nation" and were offering incentives for company's to relocate there. Don't know if these incentives are still in effect. Did here rumbling about it during the election.

 

[M_George]

Just got word my HJE order arrived. A hole box full of good USA made tools!

 

[Cummins_Tech]

How does HF not employ Americans??


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[M_George]

They do, and the store employees seem to be happy. Be interesting to know their pay scale and if they provide company benefits.

I would also like to see them take on some of the higher end American tools.

 

[dogdog]

How does HF not employ Americans??


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Probably imported

 

[Cummins_Tech]

They do, and the store employees seem to be happy. Be interesting to know their pay scale and if they provide company benefits.



I would also like to see them take on some of the higher end American tools.

Oh I'm aware, it's all this "support American workers" stuff in regards to not buying from HF that has me confused... I'm pretty sure that the people at the counters aren't shipped in from India and paid in pesos...


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[M_George]

The folks at the HF near me are just local people trying to earn a living like the rest of us.
With the number of stores the have, we need to get the message to them to try stocking one of the USA tool companies. Wouldn't it be cool if Stanley struck a deal with them to stock US made Craftsman...

 

[M_George]

Oh I'm aware, it's all this "support American workers" stuff in regards to not buying from HF that has me confused... I'm pretty sure that the people at the counters aren't shipped in from India and paid in pesos...


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They get paid in rupee's in India

 

[M6erfan]

With the number of stores the have, we need to get the message to them to try stocking one of the USA tool companies. Wouldn't it be cool if Stanley struck a deal with them to stock US made Craftsman...

Keep dreamin'

 

[visionguru]

This all started back in the late nineties early 2000's. The US government was trying to boost trade with China. I remember they referred to China as the "Most Favored Nation" and were offering incentives for company's to relocate there. Don't know if these incentives are still in effect. Did here rumbling about it during the election.

You are confused about what "most favored nation" means.
"Most Favored Nation" = "normal trade relations" = non-discriminatory
China is only ONE OF MANY countries that gain that status. US government has stopped using that term already and uses "normal trade relations" instead.

Like the huge profit is not enough. We did this for our own benefit: keep our economy growing. China has 1.4 billion people, a huge market for our products. Other places are mostly saturated already.

Use common sense, it's not possible for US government to offer incentives for companies to relocate to other countries. It's never happened before and won't happen in the future.

 

[dogdog]

You are confused about what "most favored nation" means.
"Most Favored Nation" = "normal trade relations" = non-discriminatory
China is only ONE OF MANY countries that gain that status. US government has stopped using that term already and uses "normal trade relations" instead.

Like the huge profit is not enough. We did this for our own benefit: keep our economy growing. China has 1.4 billion people, a huge market for our products. Other places are mostly saturated already.

Use common sense, it's not possible for US government to offer incentives for companies to relocate to other countries. It's never happened before and won't happen in the future.

That is a lie. You know we do this because we want to help China, not to access their untapped market.

 

[M_George]

George Bush made a deal to move several textile plants located in Allentown area to Turkey so he could have an air base there.

 

[M_George]

Last I looked, we have a trade imbalance with China. They send all their products over here, while blocking many of ours. They also adjust their currency it their favor. I here that all the time in the news.

 

[M_George]

Keep dreamin'

Why not? It's the squeaky mouse that gets the cheese. Besides, you know their reading the GJ.

 

[malibu101]

George Bush made a deal to move several textile plants located in Allentown area to Turkey so he could have an air base there.

Yep. There were textile mills all around my area. Made many jobs for many people for many years.
My first job was in one.

Then Mexico joined NAFTA. Then everything went "global".
The former mills are now just empty buildings with the machinery sold off for scrap metal.

 

[M_George]

Yep. There were textile mills all around my area. Made many jobs for many people for many years.
My first job was in one.

Then Mexico joined NAFTA. Then everything went "global".
The former mills are now just empty buildings with the machinery sold off for scrap metal.

And from what I remember, those weren't the high paid union jobs I here about on this thread. Just a decent living.

 

[M6erfan]

Why not? It's the squeaky mouse that gets the cheese. Besides, you know their reading the GJ.

Maybe, but I was actually referring to Stanley/Craftsman having anything USA made in the near future

 

[malibu101]

And from what I remember, those weren't the high paid union jobs I here about on this thread. Just a decent living.

Yeah.
No working stiffs in the mills got rich and sailed yachts (although unions were in many mills) when I worked there for less than 2 years I was in the ILGWU.
International Ladies Garment Workers Union. I am a male.

But it allowed people to earn money to put food on the table and pay taxes instead of needing to use tax subsidized programs since the jobs went away.

It's an big ugly circle of events.

 

[zendriver]

Last I looked, we have a trade imbalance with China. They send all their products over here, while blocking many of ours. They also adjust their currency it their favor. I here that all the time in the news.

Yes, but.

China has purchased over $1 trillion in US treasury bonds and is investing big money, in US properties and even buying and building factories here.

It's not as "imbalanced" as everyone likes to believe it is.

 

[zendriver]

Yeah.
No working stiffs in the mills got rich and sailed yachts (although unions were in many mills) when I worked there for less than 2 years I was in the ILGWU.
International Ladies Garment Workers Union. I am a male.

But it allowed people to earn money to put food on the table and pay taxes instead of needing to use tax subsidized programs since the jobs went away.

It's an big ugly circle of events.

It was way more common than people realize, that want to beat up Unions.

I was in the UAW back in the 70's at a small town parts plant, that made about $5/hr (plus benefits) which was probably at least 1/2 the hourly wage, at International Harvester or Fisher Body.

They were "livable" wages, but nothing like the big boys, for sure. Those jobs were scarce and coveted, for obvious reason. All Union shops in most any factory in my town (and there were plenty), paid around $5 average, for line workers.

 

[M_George]

Maybe, but I was actually referring to Stanley/Craftsman having anything USA made in the near future

I remember the days when most things were made in USA. Just hoping the pendulum swings back our way.

 

[M6erfan]

Yes, but.

China has purchased over $1 trillion in US treasury bonds and is investing big money, in US properties and even buying and building factories here.

It's not as "imbalanced" as everyone likes to believe it is.

Basically, a la Japan in the 80's. Remember when everyone was running scared that they would take over the world?