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Final Nail in the Craftsman Coffin.

concealer404

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Hey Link-Belt: Read this and then tell me you'd still buy the USA Craftsman 3/8" ratchet.

http://www.sonic.net/~alexz/Ratchet shootout.pdf

This is what i'm talking about. Whether it says "USA" or not, it's still **** no matter where it's made, and i'm not buying it.

Supporting ****** products made in America does more harm than good. THAT'S unAmerican.
 
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Link-Belt

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On the flip side, is it ethical to limit someone's success? I thought that capitalism was a good thing....?

Can the assembly worker run the company? Likely not. If he could, he'd be running a company. So... yes. The CEO's time is more valuable. TO THE COMPANY.

I'm not so delusional to think that my time is worth the same as my CEO's... that's just asinine at best. I couldn't run the company, so i don't expect to be paid the same. I'm not greedy or jealous.

Albert Einstein was a store clerk or some **** when he changed the laws of physics.
 

Link-Belt

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Them making more money then us really isn't the point. The point is them expecting the working man to give up everything while they give up nothing. News flash once a worker Gibson something up they will not be able to negotiate it back even if it becomes profitable for the corporation. They will just keep lining there pockets.
 

shoturtle

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News flash, not all ceo's are bad, Ford avoided that whole mess. Did not take bail out money or anything. Ford's CEO drives a really high end lincoln.

That is the economic environment we are in. Airlines workers are making concession if not the airline goes belly up. Shoot in the last 5 years, a bunch of US airline did go belly.
 

shoturtle

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I think you see what I am saying given your under par statement

But at the same time some of the best business manager have little clue about the science of their product. They just know what are the best decision to grow their company. Both are educated. But the business guy runs the whole ship as they see beyond the lab. And can make the correct decision for the company.

And while executive compensation is high. If you look at the GM issue. What they got paid was peanuts compare to the debt they were accruing every second.

Executive compensation was something the media and party liners jump as it was flashy.
 

concealer404

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Albert Einstein was a store clerk or some **** when he changed the laws of physics.

That's great.... but...?

I'm not saying i'm not doing great things... but merely that i'm incapable of running the company i work for, and i'm not greedy or jealous enough to begrudge my CEO the money that make.

They worked for it, they can have it. Anything less is a slippery slope into communism.
 

Link-Belt

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But at the same time some of the best business manager have little clue about the science of their product. They just know what are the best decision to grow their company. Both are educated. But the business guy runs the whole ship as they see beyond the lab. And can make the correct decision for the company.

And while executive compensation is high. If you look at the GM issue. What they got paid was peanuts compare to the debt they were accruing every second.

Executive compensation was something the media and party liners jump as it was flashy.

So in your head it's OK for executive compensation to be high while the working man gets the shaft and has to lower his standard of life to the point it becomes a struggle to support his family. I don't see how this helps the economy what I see is an economy fixed so that the rich get richer and the poor get more poor.
 

Link-Belt

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That's great.... but...?

I'm not saying i'm not doing great things... but merely that i'm incapable of running the company i work for, and i'm not greedy or jealous enough to begrudge my CEO the money that make.

They worked for it, they can have it. Anything less is a slippery slope into communism.

On the flip side do you not work hard for your compensation? Why should you give yours up? In like your last three post you have judged yourself to not even be equal to but less then another man. Just saying.
 

HandyManny

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Fact of the matter is that there are still plenty of jobs in this country for people to do if they are willing to. Maybe not as many skilled labor or manufacturing jobs, but there are jobs, we've just moved into different fields in this country. The drawback is that too many Americans today feel that many of these existing jobs are beneith them, and that is largely leading to the problem of importing forign labor these day. Just talk to any farmer or rancher about labor issues and the challenges they face with hiring good help. It's the same in a lot of industries as well.
 

concealer404

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On the flip side do you not work hard for your compensation? Why should you give yours up? In like your last three post you have judged yourself to not even be equal to but less then another man. Just saying.

Yes i work my *** off. Still has nothing to do with it. My job is a time bomb anyways because of what my fellow American wanted, and i'm ok with it.

I'm equal to my CEO, i just can't perform THEIR JOB equally. HUGE difference, and if you can't understand this, then i can't help you to understand it. Different jobs warrant different salaries, end of story.

PS: It's a woman.


And now, can we get back to the original topic at hand goddamnit? Did you read the link i provided earlier? I'd like you to tell me why i should actively buy the inferior tool just because it's made in the US. If you can't answer that, then don't reply.


Here's the link again: http://www.sonic.net/~alexz/Ratchet shootout.pdf

Read it. Then tell me why i should buy the Craftsman anyways to put food on an American's plate.
 
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ncfh

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Who cares what people make.

What I want to see is a nice great big divide drawn between corporate "citizens" and the various levels of "the people's" gov't.

War all the time is only good business for the military industrial complex.

Exploding rates of cancer and illness are only good business for big pharma. Why cure people when you can keep them coming back forever?

Why undermine profits with genius when we can dole out mediocrity indefinitely, forcing consumers to pay for each and every incremental advancement?

Inferior building practices and materials are a cyclical boon to major construction. Why have roads that last 40 years when we can "create jobs" and patch continuously and resurface every 10 years?

I forget where, but some highly impartial and corruption free county gov't decided to privatize the juvenile detention center, but rather than reuse the old facility, the unbribable county officials spent millions to not only build a new facility on the private contractor's land but to then make lease payments on the building forever aswell. Double points!! Woo!!

Then some incorruptible judge took money from agents of the private contractor to put innocent kids away and impose overly harsh, long sentences on the rest. Triple points!!! Yeehaw!

And with no public oversight, employees of the private contractor were directed to lengthen sentences of children by saying they are unstable or violent, just to keep them there, and the private contractor collecting money on each child in it's custody.

...

I can go on and on here, there are virtually unlimited examples of "what's good for business is NOT good for the country" at all levels of gov't.

But honestly, I know I'm wasting my key strokes. It's too late and Americans as a whole are too stupid and preoccupied with their ipads and Harleys, and whatever else to do anything about it.



I thought this was interesting and pretty funny...

 

concealer404

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Ether way my point was made you can't judge aperson by there job title mankind is capable of amazing things.

Nobody is judging anyone by their job title. They get paid based on the job they perform. I'm not understanding why this is hard to grasp.

Do you believe that everyone in America should be paid the same? :spit:



Is there an "ignore" feature on this board? Ohhhhhh there is!!!!
 
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IndyGarage

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I believe Sears will be out of business soon if they can't get competitive, and as I've mentioned in the past, the second or third new CEO in a crisis really doesn't care much about the past.

Despite the vocal crowd of "I won't buy tools that are made in China", the vast majority of customers don't care, because a great percentage of many other products they sell are made in China: Toys, furniture, clothing, housewares.
 

Link-Belt

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How about pay the working a fair wage ware he can afford to buy the American made product instead of paying them just enough that they can struggle to make ends meet.I guess that does make pretty goodbusiness sense though pay the worker just enough so they have to show up for work tomorrow.

Really guys can you not take off the corporate blinders and see what's really going on here?
 
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IndyGarage

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Albert Einstein was a store clerk or some **** when he changed the laws of physics.

He worked in the patent office. And a few more things about that:

First: He didn't get much recognition or win the Nobel prize for another 15 years.

Second: He gave all the prize money (quite a sum) to his ex-wife and children. His wife was a physicist at the time of the discovery - while he was a patent clerk - and there is some speculation that she actually came up with it instead of him. It's pretty clear they at least collaborated on it.

Third: No, he (they) didn't necessarily change physics, but he did change our understanding of physics.
 

IndyGarage

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How about pay the working a fair wage ware he can afford to buy the American made product instead of paying them just enough that they can struggle to make ends meet.I guess that does make pretty goodbusiness sense though pay the worker just enough so they have to show up for work tomorrow.

Really guys can you not take off the corporate blinders and see what's really going on here?

Nearly every American has food and clothing and shelter in abundance and is weighed down with electronics. So much so that houses have to get bigger, cars have to get bigger and still storage businesses are showing up in every town.

You have plenty of money to buy whatever thing you need. What you don't have is plenty of money to buy every thing you want...
 

Link-Belt

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Nearly every American has food and clothing and shelter in abundance and is weighed down with electronics. So much so that houses have to get bigger, cars have to get bigger and still storage businesses are showing up in every town.

You have plenty of money to buy whatever thing you need. What you don't have is plenty of money to buy every thing you want...

Correct sir. Again I say I don't think people choose to by overseas products it is simply we cannot afford USA products because corporations have figured out buy pricing them so high the average American cannot afford it and is forced to buy outsourced goods. They don't pay as much for outsourced labor making there profit margins greater and because we can't afford to buy USA made products there is no reason to keep manufacturing said products in the USA thus closing factory's and putting Americans out of work increasing profit margins even more. Now that unemployed worker is on unemployment and it's rice and beans, Romon noodles for his family. In the short run yes good for the business man vertigo rich quick but bad for the American economy.
 
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geologist

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Seems like the main reason for this has been missed.... Sears is a publicly traded company...their product is their share price. Once a company is public. the only thing that matters is what the numbers look like THIS QUARTER. If they screw up, the numbers dive, then the next genius gets to step into the batters box to see what he can do for the numbers next quarter. There is no interest on the part of the investor for long term, stable corporations, it's all about the latest numbers and how fast they can make a buck. The corporations know this all too well and that's why they do the stuff they do...they're indebted to the shareholders not their customers and as long as that's how the structure is set up, then moves like what Sears and nearly everyone else are making will be the norm.

Sears is two guys that hold something like 90% of the company's USEFUL stock... the voting shares. Eddie Lampert is the chief idiot, and he knows exactly what he's doing - making the numbers bad enough that he sells off profitable divisions... TO HIMSELF.

It's all in the shareholders reports if you want to see for yourself. He's been stripping away and buying the profitable entities for years now. Shareholders will eventually be left with a useless, bankrupt husk of a company.

I've been slowly buying Channellock. It used to be that my local Boxmart only carried Channellock, until Stanley started selling tools there as well. It sickened me when they started putting china-**** Stanley garbage (of visually inferior quality) next to the US made Channellock equivalents. Most people noticed two things:

1.) Stanley has a cushy grip - Channellock is dipped.

and

2.) Stanley is half the price.

When I casually observed people comparing to the two, I can say that there wasn't a single one that actually looked at the tool itself. The Stanley side cuts were a joke as was the fit and finish, whereas the Channellock fit nicely together. Sure, the handles are different, but one will last a lifetime and can be re-dipped at home. The other doesn't last nearly as long, and once they're messed up, it's done.
 
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BrokewrenchLS1

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How about pay the working a fair wage ware he can afford to buy the American made product instead of paying them just enough that they can struggle to make ends meet.I guess that does make pretty goodbusiness sense though pay the worker just enough so they have to show up for work tomorrow.

Really guys can you not take off the corporate blinders and see what's really going on here?

Fair wages went out the window when unions gained power. No high school diploma, can't read past a 6th-grade level, spins nuts onto bolts on an assembly line - but he's union and makes $45 an hour because of seniority. What's wrong with that?

Nearly every American has food and clothing and shelter in abundance and is weighed down with electronics. So much so that houses have to get bigger, cars have to get bigger and still storage businesses are showing up in every town.

You have plenty of money to buy whatever thing you need. What you don't have is plenty of money to buy every thing you want...

Most Americans who "need to go bigger" with their stuff are living on a mountain of credit card debt. The average family still lives from paycheck to paycheck and sure as hell isn't on a constant search for a bigger tv or the newest BMW. Electric prices are going up, gas prices are going up, service prices (like cable internet) are going up. Wages aren't.
 

oldgoat

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I did cover concession look at my airline post, legacy airlines have made their union make huge concession to stay in business. GM did not get those concession till they were about to go out of business. They were pretty much selling cars at a lost each and every model with their cost structure.
But you forgot about all the other things that GM was failing on like what they advertised and built and customer service especially. In 88 I bought my first new car and had trouble with it after a few months. The dealer and Chevy basically tough luck. Guess what I haven't bought a GM product since then, new or used. Their loss.
 

Mister Moose

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So in your head it's OK for executive compensation to be high while the working man gets the shaft and has to lower his standard of life to the point it becomes a struggle to support his family. I don't see how this helps the economy what I see is an economy fixed so that the rich get richer and the poor get more poor.

This is wrong in so many places.

What kind of backwards, big brother world would need to exist for the rich to be forced to get poorer? I never understood this "rich get richer, woe is me" statement. Of course the rich get richer. They likely got rich by A) working hard B) living beneath their means, and C) investing their savings. You want to change that?

News flash, as you type this from your computer, with cold beers in your fridge, with a cell phone in your pocket, and 2 cars or more in your family. Your standard of living HAS gone up, and gone up big time. I have traveled the world, and what passes for 'poor' here would be wealthy in 3rd world countries. We are so wealthy as a nation even our 'poor' are spoiled. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve our most unfortunate citizen's education and standard of living, feed our hungry and nurse the sick, but get some perspective.

One of the great things about this country is our freedom. Our freedom to
make our own choices, about which job to take, about which school to go to, about what company to work for, about where to live. We are in control of our own destiny. These freedoms include the right to own property, which also includes the right to own companies, either outright, or partially through shares of stock in corporations.

Why is it you seem to begrudge the CEO of sears or GM his salary, but you never hear complants on how much Mick Jagger, or Tom Cruise or Micheal Jordan makes?

The fact is what the CEO of Sears makes is none of your business, nor mine. It isn't my company or yours. Saying what Sears "should do" for their worker is equally out of place. It's up to Sears.

Salaries are set by supply and demand, just like the price of Craftsman tools. The more civil engineers there are looking for work, the lower their salaries will be. If there are too few civil engineers, salaries will rise. You get to choose if you want to be a civil engineer or not. The more talented, hard working, and creative the CEO is, the higher his pay will be. If Sears wants to hire someone with more management experience away from some other company, Sears will have to pay the going rate for that talent. And on the other end of the scale, if Sears wants to hire a cashier with no high school diploma and pay the going rate for completely unskilled labor, then that again is up to Sears. If that cashier wants to make more money than that, then they should A) work harder, B) get their diploma, C) either advance in the company, or find a better job once they have better credentials. Notice none of that comes from the CEO's salary. It comes from the cashier's drive and ambition.

Have you worked 14 hour days and advanced in your company? Learned multiple functions of various departments like finance, sales, marketing, production? Did you work hard all through school and get good grades so you could go to a good college and have good credentials? We all make choices in life, and we all were all dealt different cards at the start, and we all ended up in different places. Don't think for a minute that gives you the right to go and take someone else's cards, or begrudge them the cards they are holding.

Lastly, how can the poor get more poor? Poor means no money in the bank, no assets. How can you have less than nothing? This is a nonsensical statement as well. It is born from seeing the rich man's possessions without appreciating the hard work and sacrifice that the rich man made to get there. It is born from being jealous of someone else instead of focusing on yourself.

Years ago in the company I worked at the job of service manager opened up. One of the nicest, talented guys (Mark) didn't even apply for the job. I asked him why. He told me that he didn't want the stress, the long hours. He had young kids, and only wanted to work the 40 hours. That's a valid choice. Who's to say whose life is better, the at home low stress family man, or the richer stressed out burn the midnight oil for his salary executive?

Mark knew that with more money came more hours, more responsibility, he knew that job wasn't just more money. It meant working harder. Something apparently not understood by some of the "working man' .

Lastly, there are some folks who are rich by virtue of being born into it, or winning the lottery, or being able to throw a baseball better than anyone else. Get over it.

At the end of the day, happiness doesn't come from the private jet, the 5 million dollar garage, or the corner office. It comes from you.
 

IndyGarage

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This is wrong in so many places.

What kind of backwards, big brother world would need to exist for the rich to be forced to get poorer? I never understood this "rich get richer, woe is me" statement. Of course the rich get richer. They likely got rich by A) working hard B) living beneath their means, and C) investing their savings. You want to change that?

News flash, as you type this from your computer, with cold beers in your fridge, with a cell phone in your pocket, and 2 cars or more in your family. Your standard of living HAS gone up, and gone up big time. I have traveled the world, and what passes for 'poor' here would be wealthy in 3rd world countries. We are so wealthy as a nation even our 'poor' are spoiled. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve our most unfortunate citizen's education and standard of living, feed our hungry and nurse the sick, but get some perspective.

One of the great things about this country is our freedom. Our freedom to
make our own choices, about which job to take, about which school to go to, about what company to work for, about where to live. We are in control of our own destiny. These freedoms include the right to own property, which also includes the right to own companies, either outright, or partially through shares of stock in corporations.

Why is it you seem to begrudge the CEO of sears or GM his salary, but you never hear complants on how much Mick Jagger, or Tom Cruise or Micheal Jordan makes?

The fact is what the CEO of Sears makes is none of your business, nor mine. It isn't my company or yours. Saying what Sears "should do" for their worker is equally out of place. It's up to Sears.

Salaries are set by supply and demand, just like the price of Craftsman tools. The more civil engineers there are looking for work, the lower their salaries will be. If there are too few civil engineers, salaries will rise. You get to choose if you want to be a civil engineer or not. The more talented, hard working, and creative the CEO is, the higher his pay will be. If Sears wants to hire someone with more management experience away from some other company, Sears will have to pay the going rate for that talent. And on the other end of the scale, if Sears wants to hire a cashier with no high school diploma and pay the going rate for completely unskilled labor, then that again is up to Sears. If that cashier wants to make more money than that, then they should A) work harder, B) get their diploma, C) either advance in the company, or find a better job once they have better credentials. Notice none of that comes from the CEO's salary. It comes from the cashier's drive and ambition.

Have you worked 14 hour days and advanced in your company? Learned multiple functions of various departments like finance, sales, marketing, production? Did you work hard all through school and get good grades so you could go to a good college and have good credentials? We all make choices in life, and we all were all dealt different cards at the start, and we all ended up in different places. Don't think for a minute that gives you the right to go and take someone else's cards, or begrudge them the cards they are holding.

Lastly, how can the poor get more poor? Poor means no money in the bank, no assets. How can you have less than nothing? This is a nonsensical statement as well. It is born from seeing the rich man's possessions without appreciating the hard work and sacrifice that the rich man made to get there. It is born from being jealous of someone else instead of focusing on yourself.

Years ago in the company I worked at the job of service manager opened up. One of the nicest, talented guys (Mark) didn't even apply for the job. I asked him why. He told me that he didn't want the stress, the long hours. He had young kids, and only wanted to work the 40 hours. That's a valid choice. Who's to say whose life is better, the at home low stress family man, or the richer stressed out burn the midnight oil for his salary executive?

Mark knew that with more money came more hours, more responsibility, he knew that job wasn't just more money. It meant working harder. Something apparently not understood by some of the "working man' .

Lastly, there are some folks who are rich by virtue of being born into it, or winning the lottery, or being able to throw a baseball better than anyone else. Get over it.

At the end of the day, happiness doesn't come from the private jet, the 5 million dollar garage, or the corner office. It comes from you.


I believe you've got it.

Not too many complain about Peyton Manning getting $21+ million a year - even though I would venture he works fewer hours than most anybody here. They don't complain because in those few hours he works, he's able to entertain us thoroughly with his work. Same goes for Leonardo Dicaprio, Jay Leno, and Jeff Gordon, and maybe even Donald Trump - even though his main source of income seems to be to promote Donald Trump, he obviously works very hard and effectively at it.

I might add that happiness doesn't come from a garage full of shiny tools either - no matter where they are made.
 

Link-Belt

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Mister Moose, I hold nothing against a rich man making more money although my post may seem that way. What I do have a problem with is a rich man making more money at the expence of someone else's livelyhood. Poor does not mean having nothing it means not having very much of. So with inflation on the rise and wages on the decline it is possible to become Moor poor.I CAN'T believe you guys actually think corporations play ball fair. I do see the business side is to make money but is it ethical and actually helping the grouth and prosparity of our economy the way business is conducted these days? I tinkering not. Give me the days of a hand shake on and honest deal with a man I could trust anyday over this cluster ****.
 

geologist

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Fair wages went out the window when unions gained power. No high school diploma, can't read past a 6th-grade level, spins nuts onto bolts on an assembly line - but he's union and makes $45 an hour because of seniority. What's wrong with that?

Unions have their place, but I do agree that some unions are pointless. There are two types of unions:

1.) Skilled Labor Union (trade)
2.) Workers Union

With skilled labor unions, there are generally rigorous qualifications in many areas (electricians and boilermakers for example). Some guys may slip by in, say, a general laborers union, but they generally don't last. A typical union construction trades worker is worth their weight in gold. Substance abuse isn't tolerated, safety training is negotiated into contracts, and everyone gets a square deal.

I worked on a 28 million dollar bridge project (US Grant Bridge Replacement) that ended up getting rebudgeted at 41 million because of a design flaw that the State of Ohio DIDN'T catch, but the trade unions did (it involved the tower cable stays and abutments on a suspension bridge. Needless to say, the state had the bridge redesigned and the trade unions completed the construction almost 8 million under budget.

Now lets talk about non skilled unions...

I'll be honest, I think teachers unions are garbage. They do very little for teachers or students except making it hard to have a teacher replaced. I've been fighting a crooked professor for almost 4 years now and his union contract protects his *** from just about everything (short of a violent crime). Is that right? No. However, that's a chronic plague to academia (as is tenure) and not necessarily a problem with the unions themselves.

Unions in general aren't bad. If anything, they provide a method for insuring a fair and consistent wage while providing a high level of organization, optimization, and consistency of services provided. The UAW contracts were incentive laced, and it spiraled out of control. The UAW is not representative of any other union other than itself.

Labor Unions are the only reason there's a minimum wage in this country. If you want to go sew up soccer balls for $0.40 per day, by all means, go do it.
 
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HandyManny

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Nearly every American has food and clothing and shelter in abundance and is weighed down with electronics. So much so that houses have to get bigger, cars have to get bigger and still storage businesses are showing up in every town.

You have plenty of money to buy whatever thing you need. What you don't have is plenty of money to buy every thing you want...

Yup, the average American who cries poverty today still has a roof over their head, at least one car but usually two cars, a cell phone, a big tv, and gets three meals a day. Far better than the average working class American had in the 1930's. Hell even better than many working class people had in the 1960's.

I'll tell you one major thing I notice over the years. Today the working class and middle class in this country sure live much larger and with more luxury than they did even 30 or 40 years ago. I even see people who are on welfare having and buying things that I still don't have. Seems to me like the vast majority of so-called poor people today are terribly obese and overweight, hmmm looks like they get fed well. I have a hard time believing that the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is becoming extinct. It's up to individuals to budget their own finances and money matters. Don't spend money you don't have. With advent of instant credit and credit cards for everyone these days, we americans have largely lost sight of this spend money wisely philosophy. I didn't obtain my first charge card until I was 30 years old, never even wanted one or really needed one before that time, that was a long time ago. Only ever kept two cards on hand and don't use them all that much. Your employer is not responsible for managing their employees finances either. This is the USA, work hard and make wise choices, you are responsible for your own keep. I wish more Americans believed that. Too many today expect everyone else to take care of them.
 
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Bigpigdave

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This is wrong in so many places.

What kind of backwards, big brother world would need to exist for the rich to be forced to get poorer? I never understood this "rich get richer, woe is me" statement. Of course the rich get richer. They likely got rich by A) working hard B) living beneath their means, and C) investing their savings. You want to change that?

News flash, as you type this from your computer, with cold beers in your fridge, with a cell phone in your pocket, and 2 cars or more in your family. Your standard of living HAS gone up, and gone up big time. I have traveled the world, and what passes for 'poor' here would be wealthy in 3rd world countries. We are so wealthy as a nation even our 'poor' are spoiled. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve our most unfortunate citizen's education and standard of living, feed our hungry and nurse the sick, but get some perspective.

One of the great things about this country is our freedom. Our freedom to
make our own choices, about which job to take, about which school to go to, about what company to work for, about where to live. We are in control of our own destiny. These freedoms include the right to own property, which also includes the right to own companies, either outright, or partially through shares of stock in corporations.

Why is it you seem to begrudge the CEO of sears or GM his salary, but you never hear complants on how much Mick Jagger, or Tom Cruise or Micheal Jordan makes?

The fact is what the CEO of Sears makes is none of your business, nor mine. It isn't my company or yours. Saying what Sears "should do" for their worker is equally out of place. It's up to Sears.

Salaries are set by supply and demand, just like the price of Craftsman tools. The more civil engineers there are looking for work, the lower their salaries will be. If there are too few civil engineers, salaries will rise. You get to choose if you want to be a civil engineer or not. The more talented, hard working, and creative the CEO is, the higher his pay will be. If Sears wants to hire someone with more management experience away from some other company, Sears will have to pay the going rate for that talent. And on the other end of the scale, if Sears wants to hire a cashier with no high school diploma and pay the going rate for completely unskilled labor, then that again is up to Sears. If that cashier wants to make more money than that, then they should A) work harder, B) get their diploma, C) either advance in the company, or find a better job once they have better credentials. Notice none of that comes from the CEO's salary. It comes from the cashier's drive and ambition.

Have you worked 14 hour days and advanced in your company? Learned multiple functions of various departments like finance, sales, marketing, production? Did you work hard all through school and get good grades so you could go to a good college and have good credentials? We all make choices in life, and we all were all dealt different cards at the start, and we all ended up in different places. Don't think for a minute that gives you the right to go and take someone else's cards, or begrudge them the cards they are holding.

Lastly, how can the poor get more poor? Poor means no money in the bank, no assets. How can you have less than nothing? This is a nonsensical statement as well. It is born from seeing the rich man's possessions without appreciating the hard work and sacrifice that the rich man made to get there. It is born from being jealous of someone else instead of focusing on yourself.

Years ago in the company I worked at the job of service manager opened up. One of the nicest, talented guys (Mark) didn't even apply for the job. I asked him why. He told me that he didn't want the stress, the long hours. He had young kids, and only wanted to work the 40 hours. That's a valid choice. Who's to say whose life is better, the at home low stress family man, or the richer stressed out burn the midnight oil for his salary executive?

Mark knew that with more money came more hours, more responsibility, he knew that job wasn't just more money. It meant working harder. Something apparently not understood by some of the "working man' .

Lastly, there are some folks who are rich by virtue of being born into it, or winning the lottery, or being able to throw a baseball better than anyone else. Get over it.

At the end of the day, happiness doesn't come from the private jet, the 5 million dollar garage, or the corner office. It comes from you.

Amen, I love this post!! :thumbup:
 

litng1

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2011
Messages
116
Just because u don't have a degree doesn't mean you don't deserve a good wage.Its more than just putting a nut on a bolt.Most of those people earn there money and its not 45a an hour
 

sooperdave

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
283
Location
NY
At the end of the day, happiness doesn't come from the private jet, the 5 million dollar garage, or the corner office. It comes from you.
^I only quoted part of it, but Mr Moose nailed it.


I think about some of this stuff, A LOT. One of the frequent misnomers quoted by the media and the "occupy" groups is that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting pooer. It's very misleading and not true.

People "migrate" from poor to average to wealthy and vice versa. There are immigrants and folks who grew up "poor" who are scratching and clawing their way up the ladder of wealth. They are doing things that most 3rd and 4th gen Americans won't do to get wealthy. For example, around here, Latin Americans will pack a house with extended family for 10-15 years until they save enough to start their own company in a trade they learned from a "native" American. Tree businesses, landscaping, contracting, plumbing, you name it. Then the "native" Americans get undercut from the market.

From my own observations in life - and this is going to sound crazy to some - I think growing up comfortable can demotivate someone and often lead to a feeling of entitlement. And vice versa. The book, "The Millionaire Next Door" revealed similar findings.

The majority of people that I saw grow up in a very comfortable lifestyle were in for a rude awakening in the real world. I'm talking "upper middle" class in terms of median household income. They grew to expect the same lifestyle. They entered the real world to competing with people who didn't have an entitled attitude and simply out work them.


I guess my point is, we should never rest on our laurels. We should never expect the future to be exactly like the past. The world economy, US environmental laws, cooperation with communist countries, and many other factors have completely "changed the game" over the past 40+ years. There will be very few middle class manufacturing jobs in the US until the playing field is leveled around the world.

If we really want American manufacturing to thrive in the near future, you guys should use your inventive minds and creativity to design and patent factories that wouldn't benefit from cheap unskilled labor or lenient enironment laws, and blow away the competition, instead of daydreaming about yesteryear.

I think that's something we'd all get behind.
 

BrokewrenchLS1

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Messages
1,650
Location
WV
Just because u don't have a degree doesn't mean you don't deserve a good wage.Its more than just putting a nut on a bolt.Most of those people earn there money and its not 45a an hour

I don't have a degree, and I have a highly-technical job. I earn pretty good money for my age. I worked my *** off to learn what I needed to get to where I am now. I'm not in a union, nor would I ever join one, and my personal experience with union workers is that they're some of the sloppiest, laziest, stupidest bastards I've ever met and I sure as hell wouldn't hire them or work beside of them.

I also know my experiences with union workers doesn't mean all, or even most, are like that. Some specialist unions do require a high degree of skill to be in, and some treat fairly with the companies that employ union workers.
 
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