Help with Pole Building Retrofit

[Kels]

I am up in Seabeck/Silverdale WA State area and have inherited a pole building work shop. It was not used in a long time and mice have gotten into the insulation and destroyed it. We plan on fixing up the building to use as a computer shop / art studio, so need to insulate it and put Sheetrock up and control the moisture in the finished area. I am trying my best to avoid taking the metal siding off (way beyond me) and have also ripped out as much of the white vinyl insulation/vapor barrier out as I can since the mice destroyed it, really mad about that.

Some back information: I have no idea if the shop is ventilated at all if it is its at the ridge cap there is no overhang at all. it was built back around 2002 As a rough idea. There where already condensation problems with just the standard vinyl backed insulation not horrible. the floors seems to sealed concrete that's good and the area we are finishing has a wood stove.

I am currently cleaning the room that's to be finished and trying to figure out the best way to keep mice and rodents from finding their way in again.

So what are my options in WA ST to insulate / stop condensation in the building. I have looked at the spray foam and right now that's all I can come up with besides taking off the walls and putting new insulation blanket up but I hesitate to do that since mice already created a problem the first time it was done that way. Also was thinking of doing 2" CC SPF then putting up insulation bats and sheet rocking but I don't know if that would cause a moisture problem in the wall....

Really looking for some good information here on what to do next have heard and read so many ideas that I am not sure what will really work and still work 10 yrs down the road. THANKS

 

[Highbeam]

I grew up in your area, lived on Newberry Hill Road.

Anyway, I built a pole barn and am now finishing it. Since the poles have such large spaces between them and since I too want to sheetrock, I decided to stick out the interior. Now that the interior framing is in place, I can finish it and insulate it just like a house.

Your woodstove is likely illegal. Worth a call to your insurance company to see what they will do if your barn burns down and they can prove that the stove was present.

 

[Kels]

Funny you mention newberry road we are 3 min or less from the top of that road!

I have no idea if the wood stove is illegal will check on that it's been there since the build was constructed.

We have framed in wall area in the space we plan to finish it had partial added insulation in the corner by where the stove was and was sheet rocked in that area however the mice where living like kings back there and i found that they where coming in from outside where the metal has gaps.

How do you plan on insulating your shop to avoid condensation problems and rodent problems? NM you have a vapor barrier between the metal and purlins that's unfortunately what the mice destroyed!

 

[dshop]

spray foam is your friend on a project like this...seals all entrances and insulates very well.

 

[Highbeam]

I have housewrap between metal and girts. You don't want a vapor barrier on the outside of your insulation. The housewrap is to minimize wind and water intrusion from the outside. Like a house, I will set fiberglass insulation batts, and then cover with 6 mil poly sheeting, and then sheetrock.

Spray foam is silly expensive and not practical for most folks.

I do not believe that you can build a structure to eliminate the possibility of rodents. I will poison and kill them if they ever show up. I'm not making it a major priority.

 

[nonhog]

Yet to see a single mouse near or in my shop. But I have added barriers
anyway.
See post 8, http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26250

I added closure strips above the flashing to slow down air movement.
> http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35522

Its a bit of a pain pulling all the lower screws but worth it for piece of mind.
I suppose you could foam over and seal it up tight. I'd rather have a little air flow.

I also went with frame work over the purlins to insulate.

 

[Kels]

"I have housewrap between metal and purlins. You don't want a vapor barrier on the outside of your insulation. The housewrap is to minimize wind and water intrusion from the outside. Like a house, I will set fiberglass insulation batts, and then cover with 6 mil poly sheeting, and then sheetrock."

Will this method say with-out the housewrap since I don't have that prevent condensation on the metal in the wall.

 

[joe_padavano]

spray foam is your friend on a project like this...seals all entrances and insulates very well.

X2. You'll never effectively seal and insulate from the inside any other way.

 

[Kels]

Yet to see a single mouse near or in my shop. But I have added barriers
anyway.
See post 8, http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26250

I added closure strips above the flashing to slow down air movement.
> http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35522

Its a bit of a pain pulling all the lower screws but worth it for piece of mind.
I suppose you could foam over and seal it up tight. I'd rather have a little air flow.

I also went with frame work over the purlins to insulate.

Yeah found the rat guard stuff thinking that will get done seems simple enough to do just time consuming.

You went with frame work over purlins.... what type of insulation did you use and did you put up a vapor barrier?

 

[Kels]

X2. You'll never effectively seal and insulate from the inside any other way.

I am getting the feeling that spray foam with my metal siding and the way things are are the only real option minus taking the walls off.

So if I do 2" of cc spf to create that vapor barrier and that should put it at R14. can I add in bats of insulation (I have some rolls unused) with out creating a problem in the wall? does it need to be un-faced insulation to avoid a double moisture barrier issue?

the room in the shop we are doing is about 400 sq ft. the shop is in an L shape and the larger area will be left as it is since it will be used to work on cars or whatever. the small area is where we ran into the mice problem because there was access for them and added insulation in that area that made a great home thankfully the larger area the mice left the insulation alone

 

[Highbeam]

I am getting the feeling that spray foam with my metal siding and the way things are are the only real option minus taking the walls off.

Now that's just silly. Spray foam is great stuff but the expense is not justifiable. Why on earth would you rule out insulation and poly just as your home is likely built?

The huge majority of pole barns are not spray foamed. Don't be afraid of metal siding. The water that you see condensing is from the air and once you insulate and air seal, there will be no more condensation on the metal.

 

[Kels]

Now that's just silly. Spray foam is great stuff but the expense is not justifiable. Why on earth would you rule out insulation and poly just as your home is likely built?

The huge majority of pole barns are not spray foamed. Don't be afraid of metal siding. The water that you see condensing is from the air and once you insulate and air seal, there will be no more condensation on the metal.

when you say air seal do you mean the inside of the framed wall or air seal the metal side of the wall. I just have come across enough online information where people have used insulation bats and sheet rock and then 10 yrs down the road their walls are full of mold from air leaking into the wall. I am not sure if they used the 6 mil polly between the insulation and sheetrock though. I am also really paranoid about moisture because it will be used for art and computers both moisture can be very very bad.

maybe I have done too much reading lol

 

[cyamaha2007]

For a long term solution without taking the siding off spray foam is the only way. We have had enough metal sided barns to know this. I understand its expensive but it will be a one time expense. Ive opened up the walls in tens of pole barns and seen mouse tunnels, wet soggy packed insulation, mold, rot, rust. No thanks.

 

[Kels]

For a long term solution without taking the siding off spray foam is the only way. We have had enough metal sided barns to know this. I understand its expensive but it will be a one time expense. Ive opened up the walls in tens of pole barns and seen mouse tunnels, wet soggy packed insulation, mold, rot, rust. No thanks.

So, can you give me a little more info....
would it be ok to use spray foam and do just 2 inches (less???) then ad in fiberglass batts then sheetrock? or is layering like that bad? would it matter if it was faced or unfaced fiber batts?

As far as the ceiling, It does not look like any mice found their way up there but I am not sure that there is not condensation problem with the fiber/vinyl back insulation that is up in the ceiling. also we are unsure how the roof is vented and if it is even vented at all.

I saw what you did with your roof and it looks awesome but I am not sure if we can do the same thing there because of the venting issue or if it would work fine.

THANKS!!!!

 

[Highbeam]

What you describe as a thin layer of foam and the batts is referred to as a "flash and batt" installation. You get most of the benefits of the foam and then use the cheaper batts to build up r-value. Full thickness foam is superior but also much more expensive.

I would be curious to know what caused the failures that Cyamaha described. How did water get into the wall? Was it a roof leak? Failure to air seal?

 

[kbs2244]

How much room does your computer shop or art studio need?

If your pole barn is more shed than a tight building I would think about getting older travel trailers to gut out into one big room and to park inside.

The shed will provide the basic protection while the trailers will provide a smaller, tighter places to fix up.

 

[Kels]

I really want to fix up the shop to some extent and if I pulled in a trailer it would be in the vehicle bay area and I plan on keeping that as is. there is no way to pull in a trailer to the smaller part of the L that I am trying to fix.

the total shop is HUGE the to bays that you can drive in are staying the way they are they have the standard insulation that comes with a pole building often and the mice left that area alone! It also has some wood working tools in the back those stay as well and will be putting more tool storage in there

The room that we are looking at fixing and closing off from the larger area is ~20x24 and I kinda wish it was bigger but it will work just fine for space.

attached in a panoramic photo of the property with the shop. You can the L shape and get a good idea of the layout. I'll have to take some pics of the shop inside however its FULL of stuff can't wait till summer and start going through it and organizing I have no idea what all tools we inherited out there the saw worked that was a thrill to me since there have been moisture problems and rust on anything that will rust. also plan to put some gable vents in the large area or something we will see maybe fans will do the trick. there is even a loft area that will be cleaned up for storage

 

[zcar751]

Spray foam is the easest and best rodent deterent out there. Keep in mind mice will/can still go through the spray foam but there is no inviting home atmosphere like fiberglass insulation. What mice look for is a nesting area that is small dry and dark, and a place to eat. If you eliminate the nesting area and put out mice bait they will take the bait and leave never to return again. If you put up dry wall you are asking for mice to move in as well they will bring nesting material from other places. Put up the spray foam and paint it white.

 

[Kels]

I understand that spray foam needs a fire retardant coating on it or Sheetrock because it can go up in flame....

I get what your saying though about making a home for mice i plan on installing either some z-channel or galvanized mesh or something into any and all gaps i can find at all then sealing it. was also thinking i might black off areas so should mice find their way in they are trapped to a small area and can't do the damage they did.

Part of the problem we had was for 2 reasons the original owner had framed in only a small area and you could look back in the wall so it was really really easy access as it was not finished. then the big sticker was the original owner let someone live next to the shop in a 5th wheel they then stored garbage around the shop and god forbid in the shop as well. both residents where disabled and alcoholics so they just let it go. It has been a real nightmare cleaning up the area both in and out of the shop. took about 15 large bags of beer cans to the recycling after bagging them when we first got the land. so not only was the shop not finished but it was a glorified house for mice food and home what more could they ask for!

 

[cyamaha2007]

So, can you give me a little more info....
would it be ok to use spray foam and do just 2 inches (less???) then ad in fiberglass batts then sheetrock? or is layering like that bad? would it matter if it was faced or unfaced fiber batts?

As far as the ceiling, It does not look like any mice found their way up there but I am not sure that there is not condensation problem with the fiber/vinyl back insulation that is up in the ceiling. also we are unsure how the roof is vented and if it is even vented at all.

I saw what you did with your roof and it looks awesome but I am not sure if we can do the same thing there because of the venting issue or if it would work fine.

THANKS!!!!

Ive used spray foam to seal up barns and then batt insulation on top. From my experience 1.5in of foam is enough to create a vapor barrier and stop any sweating. Then you can put fiberglass on top. Depending on your local prices this may be cheaper.

I prefer to spray 2.5-3in of foam and be done. Every time i look at the numbers its pretty close in price so i just spray the entire thing.

 

[cyamaha2007]

What you describe as a thin layer of foam and the batts is referred to as a "flash and batt" installation. You get most of the benefits of the foam and then use the cheaper batts to build up r-value. Full thickness foam is superior but also much more expensive.

I would be curious to know what caused the failures that Cyamaha described. How did water get into the wall? Was it a roof leak? Failure to air seal?

I only have issues with barns that did not plan for insulation in the original build. If you want to insulate with fiberglass there needs to be tyvek sandwiched between wooden girts and metal siding. Anything you do after the build( except removing the metal and installing tyvek) will not adequately protect the insulation from sweating metal walls. Ive been in barns that the building sweats so bad it rains inside. This may only be an issue in the midwest.Im not sure.

 

[Kels]

Ok so I thought it Might help to get some good or decent photos up of the shop as is.... Am thinking of starting a thread on the shop fix up.

Attaching some photos of the outside of the shop, its pretty big have not yet measured the larger area but the smaller room is where we are finishing and making into an office so to say. that room is about 24x20 with 8ft walls

I took a close up of the area that had mice problems it was BAD you can also see in some of the photos where there was drywall the res had no drywall and only the standard insulation in it.

I have not yet decided if we will leave the ceiling alone or not.

 

[Kels]

Also just because. here are 2 photos of the inside of the large area. It is FULL of stuff. It's going to be a big chore to go through all of it and organize it....

The car in the garage used to be my husbands fathers and when he passed we inherited the land and his sister got the car and some other stuff she does not yet have anywhere to put it so we have it for now, its a pony edition not sure of the year myself my husband would know.

In any case we plan on empty the shop this summer and start organizing once the weather is better.

I love the loft storage and am thinking of building more at some point.

 

[Kels]

LOL also pay no attention to the bushes growing out of the gutters those are also on the list to fix sooner then later lol just got to get a big ladder!

 

[Highbeam]

Love the picture of the cat watching the previously mice infested walls.

 

[Kels]

Love the picture of the cat watching the previously mice infested walls.

LOL yeah. The two cats will be moving into the shop soon, so they can earn their keep!

 

[Kels]

So got more cleaned out. the original insulation it really stuck in there on the one wall, thinking about leaving it since its between the purlins and metal maybe it will be good to have or maybe not thoughts?

Still pretty undecided about the insulation I'm leaning to Spray foam on the walls but would like to save money, and am thinking I want to keep the ceiling in the room cathedral since it would only be 7.5' tall if we frame it off. but not sure what to do about ventilation in the roof if i don't frame in a ceiling.

What have others done who spray foam for ventilation?

 

[nonhog]

Yeah found the rat guard stuff thinking that will get done seems simple enough to do just time consuming.

You went with frame work over purlins.... what type of insulation did you use and did you put up a vapor barrier?

I added foam sheet to the purlins then 2X4 framed and added f/glass insulation. Nothing touches the metal. No vapor barrier. (except the foam sheets) I am not sold that insulating a shop is the same as a house. Big open doors. Long periods of little or no heat.
I know many have used spray foam but I'm not sold. Too many issues and
maybe its due to how its applied? And yet have I seen it anywhere close to reasonable in price. That may only be in my (our) area?

Wish I had stick framed between the post to begin with. Ah well!
Good luck to you!

 

[Kels]

I added foam sheet to the purlins then 2X4 framed and added f/glass insulation. Nothing touches the metal. No vapor barrier. (except the foam sheets) I am not sold that insulating a shop is the same as a house. Big open doors. Long periods of little or no heat.
I know many have used spray foam but I'm not sold. Too many issues and
maybe its due to how its applied? And yet have I seen it anywhere close to reasonable in price. That may only be in my (our) area?

Wish I had stick framed between the post to begin with. Ah well!
Good luck to you!

So, did you leave holes at the bottom or seal the holes to stop mice? I wish the framing wasn't up already id have more option and the framing was done so weird on the room it wont be easy to do insulation because there is a ridiculous amount of cutting to fit each square with F/glass insulation.

 

[cyamaha2007]

So got more cleaned out. the original insulation it really stuck in there on the one wall, thinking about leaving it since its between the purlins and metal maybe it will be good to have or maybe not thoughts?

Still pretty undecided about the insulation I'm leaning to Spray foam on the walls but would like to save money, and am thinking I want to keep the ceiling in the room cathedral since it would only be 7.5' tall if we frame it off. but not sure what to do about ventilation in the roof if i don't frame in a ceiling.

What have others done who spray foam for ventilation?

If you want to leave the attic open(vaulted) then no passive venting is needed. Then entire area will become conditioned space. Even if you had a vented ridge cap and vented overhangs they would spray foam right over them to create a seal. If they left them open all the heat would escape in the winter. You can install power vents if you want but its not needed unless your trying to evacuate fumes/smells. If you want vents to make the building more comfortable in the summer when the A/C is OFF you can install whirly birds or power vents and plug/seal them when your using the hvac system. Just so you know when you spray the underside of the roof its called spraying the roof deck. Feel free to ask any questions.
Chuck

 

[cyamaha2007]

So, did you leave holes at the bottom or seal the holes to stop mice? I wish the framing wasn't up already id have more option and the framing was done so weird on the room it wont be easy to do insulation because there is a ridiculous amount of cutting to fit each square with F/glass insulation.

I believe he already had rat guard. Then he attached foam board right behind the metal sidding to the buildings girts. He then framed a false stick built wall to hold the batt insulation and drywall. Thats how i understand it at least.

 

[nonhog]

I believe he already had rat guard. Then he attached foam board right behind the metal sidding to the buildings girts. He then framed a false stick built wall to hold the batt insulation and drywall. Thats how i understand it at least.

Yep! see post 6.

My shop is a slow work in progress. Wish I had time/money to do it all at once. So far I only have done 1 out of 3 bays. The long bay is
walled off from the other 2. So far all I have been able to afford is insulating
one of my 2 "sealed" bays and the one that is insulated is also where I grind and weld. (wanted sheetrock for that)
Its far from airtight but made a huge difference for my lil' G73 heater.
Once its all done, I'll probably need a T-stat.

It'll be fun watching this thread to see what you end up with!
Keep the pictures coming!

 

[Kels]

Ok so i just got really curious to know if anyone has any idea why the frame work the was put up in this room to finish the walls is done in a thousand and one small squares? Some of them had cut to fit F/glass insulation in them that got ruined and tossed out but it seems to me like this was done in a manner that created a TON of extra work all around even making the inside wall would have been extra work then using 8 ft long 2x4s and spacing them appropriately for the F/glass insulation....

So is there some reason that I don't know as to why one would do something this way?

 

[Marlin363]

I am considering building a pole building and was doing a little research. This is the first thread I opened. I also live near the end of Newberry Hill. It is truly a small world.

 

[cyamaha2007]

Ok so i just got really curious to know if anyone has any idea why the frame work the was put up in this room to finish the walls is done in a thousand and one small squares? Some of them had cut to fit F/glass insulation in them that got ruined and tossed out but it seems to me like this was done in a manner that created a TON of extra work all around even making the inside wall would have been extra work then using 8 ft long 2x4s and spacing them appropriately for the F/glass insulation....

So is there some reason that I don't know as to why one would do something this way?

Ive seen more than yours done like that. Its a hybrid girt style. Its a mix of agricultural and commercial girts that they blocked in for dry wall.

 

[Kels]

I am considering building a pole building and was doing a little research. This is the first thread I opened. I also live near the end of Newberry Hill. It is truly a small world.

Indeed it is! Hope your project goes good. My tips right off is to make sure you do something about the rodents by putting in a rat guard in the beginning and also even if you don't plan on finishing it now I would put house wrap or something up so if you do want to finish it at some point it will be much easier. some people here have done some cool things with a little foresight and been able to do it cheaper then spray foam.

Oh ours doesn't have a floor drain not sure if we can do those here by code but it would be cool to have one for easy clean up and if you pull in with all the rain or the weeks of snow it will just drain away.

 

[Kels]

I met with a Masco Insulation contractor they do both spray foam and F/glass insulation.

He suggested to FILL (no air gaps) the wall cavity with F/glass insulation then poly sheeting then drywall. said that would fix condensation problems as long as the cavity was truly full of insulation.

He also said we might have problems with spray foam getting the metal clean enough for it to properly stick to the metal skin.

If filling the cavity will really work it would save a bunch of money and this isn't my retirement house so to say at least not planning on that right now. We want to someday build a custom house, but the future could change! if we only keep the place for 10 years though and its a part time use shop then I am not sure that I'd see the pay off of spray foam and would hate to have it fail do to not adhering to the metal.

Anyone used F/glass insulation to totally fill a wall cavity then poly sheet and dry wall? The catch here is the f/glass insulation would be up against the metal skin nothing between it.... Thoughts?

 

[Highbeam]

There's no rule against fiberglass touching metal. Your house, most houses, are built with the wall cavity filled with insulation batts. Glad to see a contractor steer you away from foam.

 

[Kels]

Yeah the guy was really cool we have in the shop a lot of bundles of f/glass insulation still in the packaging from 2000s. He was more then willing to use that as well to save us money and only sell us the insulation we needed! Very awesome!

 

[nonhog]

There's no rule against fiberglass touching metal. Your house, most houses, are built with the wall cavity filled with insulation batts. Glad to see a contractor steer you away from foam.

Not trying to be a nay sayer but I do think many things will need to be correct to do it that way. House and shops are usually not built the same to compare the two.
Your going to have to really trust your vapor barrier to have the f/glass touching the metal.
Just my thoughts (coming from a guy with more questions than answers)