How do Vessel Screwdrivers compare to Snap-on ?

[rust in the eye]

The old black handle Snap-on's (currently sold under their Williams name) sure do stink though, MUCH more than any of my acetate Craftsmans ever did. If you ever feel so inclined they also will make your tongue go numb. Not even sure what they are made of to do that but it's a well known thing.

EDIT: Video is AvE so there's gonna be some **** language involved

I have a few of the old black handled ones and never noticed any smell so went out to check and one had a very faint odor, the others nothing and my orange ones nothing.
Anyone here with Vessel power grips care to go sniffing around for me?

 

[rust in the eye]

I've had experiences with Snap-on screwdrivers where they fit the Phillips screw head dead nuts perfect with no movement whatsoever.

I question the screw sample in that video. Try the screwdriver on a Fillister Head Phillips!

I don't know the screw type used for that demonstartion but did notice it didn't match the other, torx head screws on whatever that was he was showing us. I suspect a contrived situation, perhaps nothing nefarious but almost certainly contrived to suit this demonstration.

 

[Wamsutta]

I don't know the screw type used for that demonstartion but did notice it didn't match the other, torx head screws on whatever that was he was showing us. I suspect a contrived situation, perhaps nothing nefarious but almost certainly contrived to suit this demonstration.

His video is very misleading. He should be using some known good screws from a car manufacturer for the demonstration.

 

[BrandonV]

How well does JIS fit a regular Phillips?

Pretty, pretty, pretty good... Now a days it really doesn't matter as most "JIS" drivers and ISO/DIN (along with a lot of "Philips" screws).

 

[Chrome Vanadium Cody]

How well does JIS fit a regular Phillips?

For me it’s worked great. When my car got to the point it needs frequent work I switched all my nice old USA phillips heads for JIS (or new DIN/ISO compatible European) ones just so I didn’t have to keep twice as many around. Haven’t had any problems using them on the American screws we use at work and if anything I think they fit better.

 

[four.cycle]

^ I haven't had ANY issues using P1 or P2 Vessels on ANYthing, including electrical fixtures. Not sure what the fuss is about.

 

[Wamsutta]

Pretty, pretty, pretty good... Now a days it really doesn't matter as most "JIS" drivers and ISO/DIN (along with a lot of "Philips" screws).

Where are JIS screws found at? Japanese cars?

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

Where are JIS screws found at? Japanese cars?

Every piece of industrial equipment we have at the shop that is manufactured in Japan has JIS screws.

 

[Wamsutta]

Every piece of industrial equipment we have at the shop that is manufactured in Japan has JIS screws.

That's interesting. Does that mean the JIS screws are manufactured in Japan?

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

That's interesting. Does that mean the JIS screws are manufactured in Japan?

No idea. What was interesting is that every machine came with a little meta toolbox that contained some wrenches, hex keys, and other assembly tools that were all made in Japan. The one thing not included in the toolbox…a screwdriver.

 

[Jack Ryan]

That's interesting. Does that mean the JIS screws are manufactured in Japan?

JIS is the Japanese Industrial Standards organisation. A good proportion of all Japanese industrial equipment is made under one or more of the JIS standards.

Many of the JIS standards have ISO equivalents, such as for cross point screws and drivers. In this case, the older ISO (DIN) and JIS standards were brought together resulting in improved European cross point drivers.

Current JIS cross point drivers are not identical to those of old but they are pretty close. ISO cross point drivers should be much better able to work with old JIS screws, in addition to modern ones.

Jack

 

[pizza]

Where are JIS screws found at? Japanese cars?

ime pretty much anything from japan. from PlayStation2 to Yamaha TW200.

 

[Wamsutta]

ime pretty much anything from japan. from PlayStation2 to Yamaha TW200.

Is the Vessel the only game in town for JIS drivers or are there other brands available?

 

[BrandonV]

Is the Vessel the only game in town for JIS drivers or are there other brands available?

Hozan, KTC/Nepros, Sunflag, Engineer just to name a few.

Sunflag still makes legitimate JIS drivers IIRC... the rest are the new DIN/ISO profile or a very similar JIS profile which is dang close too.

Basically... as long as you are using a foreign (Asian/European/etc.) Philips screwdriver you'll have no issues with JIS or DIN/ISO or anything. I learned that lesson by trying to use a 30-40 year old American Philips profile Klein on a Honda JIS screw.

 

[pizza]

Is the Vessel the only game in town for JIS drivers or are there other brands available?

so this is something i'd like to see more discussion, experiments, and even videos on, but my take on it is any modern euro cruciform (DIN 5260-PH/ISO 8764-1) is going to do a respectable job because it's close enough to JIS B 1012.

also, technically JIS screwdrivers aren't being made anymore. even if vessel is making their new drivers to that spec (which i don't think they are), afaik it is not possible to make an official JIS screwdriver since JIS isn't licensing that anymore since it's obsolete.

i imagine that modern nepros and vessel for example are doing cruciform drivers to their own in-house specs.

very vintage JIS screws might not be the same.

also, you might get somewhat different fit with a real, vintage JIS driver of one brand vs another brand. and different fit with that compared to modern vessel or nepros or some euro cruciform driver.

also, general background...



see that dot? that means it's a japanese screw. however, not all screws are guaranteed to have the dot. i don't think my yamaha screws have the dot.

i honestly don't know the history of the dot or what it means precisely, but as far as i'm concerned, it might as well mean 'japanese fastener'. for example, i have seen tri-lobed screws that have the dot – likely microstix, a proprietary japanese drive system similar to tripoint.

 

[BrandonV]

so this is something i'd like to see more discussion, experiments, and even videos on, but my take on it is any modern euro cruciform (DIN 5260-PH/ISO 8764-1) is going to do a respectable job because it's close enough to JIS B 1012.

also, technically JIS screwdrivers aren't being made anymore. even if vessel is making their new drivers to that spec (which i don't think they are), afaik it is not possible to make an official JIS screwdriver since JIS isn't licensing that anymore since it's obsolete.

also, general background...



see that dot? that means it's a japanese screw. however, not all screws are guaranteed to have the dot. i don't think my yamaha screws have the dot.

i honestly don't know the history of the dot or what it means precisely, but as far as i'm concerned, it might as well mean 'japanese fastener'. for example, i have seen tri-lobed screws that have the dot – likely microstix, a proprietary japanese drive system similar to tripoint.

I've done research and to the best of my knowledge the dot has nothing to do with the drive at all. It was solely introduced when they moved from JIS threading to metric.

Sunflag still makes JIS screwdrivers. Naturally they can't technically say that... but it's the same old design from multiple sources.

The real lesson here is throw out the 50 year old Philips screwdriver you have in your garage.

 

[pizza]

I've done research and to the best of my knowledge the dot has nothing to do with the drive at all. It was solely introduced when they moved from JIS threading to metric.

interesting! that explains why i've seen it on non-cruciform fasteners. i guess it means 'japanese metric-threaded fastener' then pretty much?

 

[Jack Ryan]

Sunflag still makes legitimate JIS drivers IIRC... the rest are the new DIN/ISO profile.

I think most, if not all, of the Japanese screwdrivers are made to the appropriate JIS standard.

I believe the current JIS B 4633 is the 98th Edition, October 20, 2023.

JIS B 4633 is equivalent to, but not identical to, ISO 8764-1 and ISO 8764-2, which cover Phillips screwdrivers.

The US importer of Vessel does a pretty good job of obfuscating the standards issue.

Jack

 

[BrandonV]

interesting! that explains why i've seen it on non-cruciform fasteners. i guess it means 'japanese metric-threaded fastener' then pretty much?

Yup from what I can tell. I linked earlier in this thread to a Honda bulletin from the 60s that describes that.

Interestingly in Japan there is quite a few people using Hazet screwdrivers so DIN/ISO must be good enough.

 

[pizza]

JIS B 4633 is the 98th Edition, October 20, 2023

i wonder how the JIS cruciform spec has changed over time.
i also wonder how that compares to JIS B 1012.

 

[BrandonV]

The US importer of Vessel does a pretty good job of obfuscating the standards issue.

What's weird is the only place I can find non-JAWSFIT Megadora screwdrivers is the US distributors.

From what I can tell the standard profile tip is no more in Japan.

 

[Jack Ryan]

i wonder how the JIS cruciform spec has changed over time.
i also wonder how that compares to JIS B 1012.

In an effort to standardise, the old JIS and Old DIN standards were combined resulting in the new ISO standard. Much of the old JIS functionality was retained so that modern JIS drivers still work properly with old JIS screws.

JIS B 1012 defines the dimensions of fastener heads including non-crosspoint. The parts that are relevant to the crosspoint come from JIS B 4633.

Jack

 

[HomeTheaterMan]

I have both, but have to disagree with a lot that I've seen in this thread. I have the Snap On Instinct soft handles, but I wanted a JIS screwdriver. Imo the Snap On are significantly nicer than the Vessel. The Vessel just feels and looks cheaper. It's one of the more disappointing tool purchases I've made. I guess I was expecting something great, but it seems like I'm most cases on Japanese screws the SO #2 grabs it just as well if not better. If the SO doesn't get it out, the Vessel usually isn't either.

 

[pizza]

tbh, i've had it with "PH" collectively because of all the bad experiences i've had with it and also all of the variation.

mostly, i use pbswiss for PH. every once in a while, i come across fasteners that just fit fantastic. i feel almost no risk of camout, and they just really stick hard onto the driver and hold there on their own even when not magnetized. know what i mean? i love when that happens.

i never work on PZ stuff, and i do wonder how the best "PH" experience compares with PZ.

i'd be happy to be done with "PH" forever.

 

[BrandonV]

tbh, i've had it with "PH" collectively because of all the bad experiences i've had with it and also all of the variation.

mostly, i use pbswiss for PH. every once in a while, i come across fasteners that just fit fantastic. i feel almost no risk of camout, and they just really stick hard onto the driver and hold there on their own even when not magnetized. know what i mean? i love when that happens.

i never work on PZ stuff, and i do wonder how the best "PH" experience compares with PZ.

i'd be happy to be done with "PH" forever.

Honestly. It's shocking that Torx never took off to supersede anything resembling a Philips or Pozidriv.

 

[Jack Ryan]

What's weird is the only place I can find non-JAWSFIT Megadora screwdrivers is the US distributors.

From what I can tell the standard profile tip is no more in Japan.

I don't know what they are currently making but I have both forms and they came from Japan. I don't know if Jawsfit supersedes the others.

Jack

 

[BrandonV]

I don't know what they are currently making but I have both forms and they came from Japan. I don't know if Jawsfit supersedes the others.

Jack

From what gathered... and this is not scientific but what I've concluded... I think Vessel Japan is still selling the non-JAWSFIT models here in the US because of the demand from the motorcycle restoration community.

Lots of people do not want to muck up the fastener on a classic motorcycle with the Wera like tip.

 

[Jack Ryan]

From what gathered... and this is not scientific but what I've concluded... I think Vessel Japan is still selling the non-JAWSFIT models here in the US because of the demand from the motorcycle restoration community.

Lots of people do not want to muck up the fastener on a classic motorcycle with the Wera like tip.

Possibly. But I thought all those fasteners were buggered up in the '70s when no one had heard of a JIS screwdriver.

Jack

 

[pizza]

Possibly. But I thought all those fasteners were buggered up in the '70s when no one had heard of a JIS screwdriver.

Jack

i can say this is the case for my yamaha motorcycle screws
i ruined them myself not even a decade ago. i really need to find replacements for them.

 

[four.cycle]

Vessel still offers a NON "jaws fit" phillips. The "jaws fit" style will eventually ****** up the fastener, as it is designed to do.

 

[BrandonV]

Vessel still offers a NON "jaws fit" phillips. The "jaws fit" style will eventually ****** up the fastener, as it is designed to do.

Do you know if this is just a US thing? I'm half ready to stockpile since I can't find non-JAWSFIT outside the US which makes me think they could stop production at anytime.

 

[four.cycle]

^ That I do not know. I've purchased all my Vessel SETS through Bowers Tool - the SETS all contained the "jaws fit" type models - those were all Christmas presents. (photo #1)
The REGULAR Phillips screwdrivers (if we can call them that) I got through other ebay sellers, but they were all US based. (I bought the "standard" tip models with those "round" red rubber grip handles.)(photos #2 and #3 below)
The "Ball Grip" RATCHETING type appear to have normal tips. (photo #4) (that package is still unopened)
The long (200mm) P2 at bottom (photo #4) has the "standard" type tip.

 

[Ton ton]

Honestly. It's shocking that Torx never took off to supersede anything resembling a Philips or Pozidriv.

On the construction side, torx is starting to take off.

 

[KnurledNut]

Good info on JIS here:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/phillips-vs-jis-called-plus-in-japanese-vs-din-5260-ph-iso-8763-1-screwdrivers.395037/

 

[Dave455]

Honestly. It's shocking that Torx never took off to supersede anything resembling a Philips or Pozidriv.

Torx works very well with things like cap screws, where there is a good depth of head available.

It doesn’t work well with things like countersunk screws. Because the screw head tapers, you end up with either a very shallow screw recess, or more usually, using a much smaller recess than the size of screw would normally warrant.

Phillips, or Pozidriv, are a much better option in these cases as the tool can enter the fastener for a good depth.

 

[AEAdam]

also, technically JIS screwdrivers aren't being made anymore. even if vessel is making their new drivers to that spec (which i don't think they are), afaik it is not possible to make an official JIS screwdriver since JIS isn't licensing that anymore since it's obsolete.

Not sure if this will help or not:

The obsolescence of an government or industrial agency spec has no bearing on whether a manufacturer can build to that spec or not. It was there to help industry. There is no licensing or inspection associated with these specs.

The basic Japanese hex head spec is obsolete, replaced by the ISO spec, but that doesn't make 12 and 14mm bolt heads disappear, nor does it stop hardware manufacturers from making bolts to that obsolete spec. Engineers can specify whatever bolts they want, regardless of whether its a government project or... My USG customers prefer the older NAS and MS hardware, long obsolete, because they have it in inventory.

 

[AEAdam]

Torx works very well with things like cap screws, where there is a good depth of head available.

It doesn’t work well with things like countersunk screws. Because the screw head tapers, you end up with either a very shallow screw recess, or more usually, using a much smaller recess than the size of screw would normally warrant.

Phillips, or Pozidriv, are a much better option in these cases as the tool can enter the fastener for a good depth.

Also for items that get top coated, Torx is a pain, where Phillips etc are easier to clean out

 

[BrandonV]

Not sure if this will help or not:

The obsolescence of an government or industrial agency spec has no bearing on whether a manufacturer can build to that spec or not. It was there to help industry. There is no licensing or inspection associated with these specs.

The basic Japanese hex head spec is obsolete, replaced by the ISO spec, but that doesn't make 12 and 14mm bolt heads disappear, nor does it stop hardware manufacturers from making bolts to that obsolete spec. Engineers can specify whatever bolts they want, regardless of whether its a government project or... My USG customers prefer the older NAS and MS hardware, long obsolete, because they have it in inventory.

Yeah. Sunflag I believe continues to make the old JIS profile... I don't think they can use the term per licensing but its the old school profile.

 

[pizza]

There is no licensing

I don't think they can use the term per licensing

i must confess i was parroting rather than saying it with confidence, but which is it? how confident are either of you?

 

[BrandonV]

i must confess i was parroting rather than saying it with confidence, but which is it? how confident are either of you?

Typically, if a standards-issuing body changes the standard you can't continue to claim your product meets standard XYZ because of the usual mumble jumble regarding licensing. Doesn't mean you can't take off the logo and keep making something as someone pointed out above.

There seems to be a lot of FUD on the internet about JIS. Vessel used to claim IIRC that nobody could label screwdrivers w/ the JIS mark yet JIS B 4633 for all I can tell is still a valid and different standard from DIN/ISO.