Icon G2 Ratchets vs Snap On

[neophyte]

Consumer Reports is for typical consumers- they test products as delivered. They test thousands of products each year and don't have time to **** around swapping saw blades or to test a dishwasher for 5 years. If you sell a saw with a POS blade, then that's part of the grading, because that's how a typical consumer is going to use it- right out of the box.

Their long-term review tables incorporate subscriber feedback for reliability, satisfaction, etc. If you are a serious woodworker, then obviously you might want to use a woodworking magazine for reviews. If you want the best track car, then look to Motor Trend. If you want to buy a microwave, string trimmer, TV, best laundry detergent, air fryer, toaster oven, sunscreen, typical vehicle... then I find CR to be an excellent resource.

It’s not hard to add a not that a saw’s performance will be significantly upgraded by spending $15 for a carbide blade made by Freud or whomever, especially since the places selling the saws would have better blades readily available.
CR just decided to go with lazy and cheap testing, despite a blueprint having bern laid out for better testing by other sources.

 

[neophyte]

They copied them and changed it enough to where there would be reasonable doubt in court of patent infringement.

The entire ICON line is based off of stealing Snap On customers who are looking for a lower price point but want the Snap On version.

Honest to God I wouldn't even be surprised if Snap On is in on it. Harbor Freight gives them a cut and Snap On doesn't file a lawsuit.

The Icon came out stronger few in the test though, for both tested ratchet types, with the exception of slightly higher backdrag.
Either Snap-On sacrificed strength to get lower backdrag for the ratchets due to customer preferences, something that is fully possible, or Snap-On did not engineer the a better stronger mechanism, or the Icon designer simply used an older design that works better, and Snap-On tried to engineer better but failed.

I doubt Snap-On is getting a cut of profits from Harbour Freight.
Snap-On has higher asset values, but Harbor Freight is coming pretty close the SO in terms of actual revenue nowadays, (allegedly), although it’s harder to tell since HF is a privately owned company.
Ratchet designs have been made for do long that it’s likely just hard to come ip with a design that can be patented, and have the patent remain in force if challenged in court by a challenger deep enough pockets.
HF has deep enough pockets to challenge patents.


I presume users who already buy Snap-On will continue to do so, unless they are broke, or want a cheaper spare as a secondary or junk yard ratchet.
People who were on the fence about spending the extra for SO which might tale saving up will probably just buy Icon.

 

[neophyte]

No casual consumer is going to pay for a worm drive saw. If you are savvy and serious enough to buy one, you are not going to leave a throwaway blade on it even for one cut. Most of the reviews from CR have the same problem. But some of the data is just plain trash. When all of the big three automakers were selling rebranded Japanese cars, the Japanese model would get great reviews while the exact same car with a US badge would see horrible reviews.

Back when the test was done, worm drive saws were one of the two “standard types”, and the Skil 77 had been around for decades.
Somebody who saw a contractor using a Skil saw might have purchased one based on that, or because some old grizzled neighbor had had one for decades.
The cost difference between a high quality Porter Cable, or Milwaukee, or Skil 77 wasn’t that high, and Home Depot carried bulk pack carbide Freud blades that cost $15 or less, with other options that were less expensive.
The Skil 77 might have even been safer for less experienced users, since the extra weight would hedge against kickback.

 

[Wamsutta]

Everything ICON is in a sealed box or package of some sorts. If I want to try out the tool, I have to buy the tool and take it home.

If I don't like the tool for some reason, they'll give me a refund and charge me a restocking fee.

All I'd have to do is hold it in my hand and pop a socket on it to check the mechanical action.

Probably wouldn't take me more than a few minutes to find everything I don't like about it.

Harbor Freight says, "You no looky. You buy!"

 

[dnschmidt]

Everything ICON is in a sealed box or package of some sorts. If I want to try out the tool, I have to buy the tool and take it home.

If I don't like the tool for some reason, they'll give me a refund and charge me a restocking fee.

All I'd have to do is hold it in my hand and pop a socket on it to check the mechanical action.

Probably wouldn't take me more than a few minutes to find everything I don't like about it.

Harbor Freight says, "You no looky. You buy!"

If you had Harbor Freight's cost of stolen goods you might package your **** in bulletproof packaging as well.

 

[rword]

Everything ICON is in a sealed box or package of some sorts. If I want to try out the tool, I have to buy the tool and take it home.

If I don't like the tool for some reason, they'll give me a refund and charge me a restocking fee.

All I'd have to do is hold it in my hand and pop a socket on it to check the mechanical action.

Probably wouldn't take me more than a few minutes to find everything I don't like about it.

Harbor Freight says, "You no looky. You buy!"

There is no restocking fee on hand tools

 

[M635_Guy]

They copied them and changed it enough to where there would be reasonable doubt in court of patent infringement.

Believe what you want, but as someone with a relatively deep background in this area, it's not even remotely close, especially on the G2 ratchets, but really on anything.

The entire ICON line is based off of stealing Snap On customers who are looking for a lower price point but want the Snap On version.

When you say "the Snap On version" what are you referring to? The general font on sockets and wrenches?

That's honestly not a sarcastic question, but FWIW I disagree with you. People know which is which, and are making a choice. I don't think the differences are misunderstood in terms of quality (I'll say SO is better than Icon across the board, but in most places the gap isn't as much as some want to think...) or COO (SO=MiUSA, Icon=mainly Taiwan)

Honest to God I wouldn't even be surprised if Snap On is in on it. Harbor Freight gives them a cut and Snap On doesn't file a lawsuit.

This is definitely not the case. There's zero chance of that being true for any number of reasons, but the biggest one is HF literally has no need to worry about SO's IP. I'm sure they have a group of IP attorneys who keep an eye on the pipeline and make sure nobody puts a foot wrong, but there's really not a ton of protection SO can have. So much of their design is functional that it prevents an ID ("design") patent (that was their big problem in the floor jack lawsuit) and the functional patents exist in an area that has so many previous designs ("prior art") that what they can patent is going to likely be so specific that it's easy to design around. This is literally how the patent system is supposed to work. Companies can't just pile a bunch of patents to scare others away - they have to create novel/unique things that stands the tests. The Knipex pliers wrench is a great example. They monetized that design for a very long time, and now the patent has expired, which allows competition to happen and bring it to market at lower costs.

 

[Zewnten]

Believe what you want, but as someone with a relatively deep background in this area, it's not even remotely close, especially on the G2 ratchets, but really on anything.

Can you expand on what your saying? If Snap On parts interchange with the G2 ratchet would HF be infringing no matter what other differences they put in the design?

 

[zendriver]

Everything ICON is in a sealed box or package of some sorts. If I want to try out the tool, I have to buy the tool and take it home.

If I don't like the tool for some reason, they'll give me a refund and charge me a restocking fee.

All I'd have to do is hold it in my hand and pop a socket on it to check the mechanical action.

Probably wouldn't take me more than a few minutes to find everything I don't like about it.

Harbor Freight says, "You no looky. You buy!"

It's the sticky fingers group, plus they probably figure most people just buy their products and use them.

 

[Rinspeed]

Everything ICON is in a sealed box or package of some sorts. If I want to try out the tool, I have to buy the tool and take it home.

I've wondered several times why they didn't have a couple ratchets on display even if tethered to the shelf.

 

[zendriver]

I've wondered several times why they didn't have a couple ratchets on display even if tethered to the shelf.

Someone would go to another aisle and get a pair of side-cuts?

 

[zendriver]

I don't feel like watching yet another "comparison" but don't other tool makers offer ratchets that look pretty close to that supposed coveted "Snap On design" even if not exact? These ratchets probably work just fine.

I mean lets be honest. HF could offer plenty that "look close" and be fine, but they make a marketing point to get items that are almost exact copies, of something else, that is an expensive name brand..

Pretty genius, really

 

[liliysdad]

I've wondered several times why they didn't have a couple ratchets on display even if tethered to the shelf.

The local HF has the G2 ratchets set up exactly like this on an endcap.


I don’t begrudge anyone for saving money where it makes sense to them….bur it would have been cool if they had at least tried to make them look original. Instead, they tried their damndest to make them look as close to SO as they could. Fonts, handle colors and shapes, all of it.

It just makes the whole thing cheesy.

 

[d.mcfarland]

When you say "the Snap On version" what are you referring to? The general font on sockets and wrenches?

That's honestly not a sarcastic question, but FWIW I disagree with you. People know which is which, and are making a choice. I don't think the differences are misunderstood in terms of quality (I'll say SO is better than Icon across the board, but in most places the gap isn't as much as some want to think...) or COO (SO=MiUSA, Icon=mainly Taiwan)

I'm not going to argue with you as anything I say you really want to pick apart and act superior.

Here's from a youtube channel jeffs garage adventures Snap On vs ICON pliers comparison:




If you're well versed in the business world, you'll explain how ICON isn't a direct copy of the Snap On Version. The point I'm making is that the ICON marketing plan is to be cheap Snap On.

 

[liliysdad]

The point I'm making is that the ICON marketing plan is to be cheap Snap On.

That’s their only plan….and it seems to be working. Lots of folks want that flash without the cash.

 

[M635_Guy]

Can you expand on what your saying? If Snap On parts interchange with the G2 ratchet would HF be infringing no matter what other differences they put in the design?

Firstly, the mechanisms don't really interchange. Icon won't work at all in the SO head because they have a shoulder built into their hub that SO does not (which sounds like good design, but I digress) so the chamber won't allow the Icon to work. SO can fit because it rides over the part of the chamber where the shoulder would go for the native mechanism in the Icon ratchet, and it works. I'm not sure I'd want to count on it working well for any length of time, but whatever. If you look at the components of the mechanism, they're not really that similar, especially if you're looking from an intellectual property point of view. The hole they go in is fairly similar (if you discount the hole for the shouldered area of Icon's gear head), but that's about it. That's not going anywhere in court (nor should it).

Secondly, "infringing" means there's a patent/copyright/intellectual property of some kind. Securing protection for intellectual property has a relatively arduous process with a fairly high standard. For example, the shape of the chamber in a ratchet head is highly unlikely to get that kind of protection because it's not inventively unique enough, and likely there are so many previous products that are similar enough to make achieving a patent/whatever even harder. While SO has a patent on the Dual-80 mechanism (acquired from Balco IIRC, and probably aging out relatively soon), there's not much else that's truly protected, and I'd guess all of it is easy enough to avoid.

Lastly, patents aren't absolute. It's not uncommon for them to be struck down if you can show they aren't unique/inventive enough, among other things. That's ultimately the story with the (highly-ill-conceived) Snap On lawsuit against HF over the floor jack: They'd hired a company to design it and get a design patent (look/feel), which was then transferred to SO, but when they got to court, the judge tore that to shreds and did the "strongly advise you settle" thing judges do just before they get ugly. HF came out of that whole mess in perfect shape.

Again, all of that is how it is supposed to work. It's why products are affordable and available. People who truly invent new/unique things get 20 years to make money on it and then the market gets it. There are plenty of other things you can compete on: quality, customer service, better design/usability, price for value, availability, etc., etc. A lot of those things are hard to do bit are more 'protectable' in some ways because you can own it and compete without a bunch of lawyers.

 

[Professor Gascan]

Everything ICON is in a sealed box or package of some sorts. If I want to try out the tool, I have to buy the tool and take it home.

If I don't like the tool for some reason, they'll give me a refund and charge me a restocking fee.

All I'd have to do is hold it in my hand and pop a socket on it to check the mechanical action.

Probably wouldn't take me more than a few minutes to find everything I don't like about it.

Harbor Freight says, "You no looky. You buy!"

The local HF has the G2 ratchets set up exactly like this on an endcap.


I don’t begrudge anyone for saving money where it makes sense to them….bur it would have been cool if they had at least tried to make them look original. Instead, they tried their damndest to make them look as close to SO as they could. Fonts, handle colors and shapes, all of it.

It just makes the whole thing cheesy.

The HF closest to me also has the G2 flex head ratchets tethered to a display in store for anyone to get a feel for. I've got my bases covered for ratchets atm, but they seemed pretty nice for the money.

If I was in the market for locking flex heads or long pattern ratchets, I would definitely have these on my short list.

 

[merkyworks]

What about competition breeds innovation/excellence?

Maybe the Icon stuff will light a fire under Snap On to up there game

 

[M635_Guy]

I'm not going to argue with you as anything I say you really want to pick apart and act superior.

Here's from a youtube channel jeffs garage adventures Snap On vs ICON pliers comparison:




If you're well versed in the business world, you'll explain how ICON isn't a direct copy of the Snap On Version. The point I'm making is that the ICON marketing plan is to be cheap Snap On.

Dude - I'm not trying to act superior. I'm just trying to be factual in general, and was asking the question so I wasn't talking about what I think you meant vs. what you actually mean. The word "stealing" is what I was trying to be careful about. I wouldn't disagree with you that a lot of the Icon products are SO copies at much more affordable prices for quality that isn't that far off (I know you don't necessarily agree with that part but the information available and my own experience with both brands supports that statement).

I really don't think they're taking meaningful customers or revenue from Snap On, and I'd bet in a quiet room any exec from Snap On would agree: Icon exists mainly in a white space Snap On doesn't (retail, prosumer, mid-tier pricing) and clearly doesn't want to. Snap On sits in a different channel (non-retail, direct and semi-direct, pro-only and premium pricing) and is never going to worry that Icon will hit the core of their revenue and (especially) profit: large corporate contracts and government sales. And given how HF runs things, I don't think they have any real desire to try. They're not even taking a swipe at having an Icon truck fleet, and that's no accident either.

I watch Jeff's channel too, and he pretty consistently says the Icon stuff is dang nice. The Rockwell tests he does tends to show Icon isn't cheaping out on metallurgy (though I don't think that's a super-useful data point because it's only a piece of a bigger design story (which is often going to be where SO makes their differences).

I'm legit not trying to be disrespectful - I'm honestly trying (and failing) to be the opposite.

 

[liliysdad]

What about competition breeds innovation/excellence?

Maybe the Icon stuff will light a fire under Snap On to up there game

Making cheaper copies of the same thing isn’t “competition,” and the fact that HF is chasing SnapOn by copying them means that their “game”is just fine.

 

[M635_Guy]

Making cheaper copies of the same thing isn’t “competition,” and the fact that HF is chasing SnapOn by copying them means that their “game”is just fine.

You don't have to like it - I understand why you don't and it's 100% your right not to like it - but it's the definition of competition. Innovators have every incentive to keep innovating. They can only lock up real innovation and only for 20 years. Outside of that, the field is open and the market competes. That's by design. They're not exploiting a loophole or getting away with anything. It's how the market is meant to be.

 

[zendriver]

What about competition breeds innovation/excellence?

Maybe the Icon stuff will light a fire under Snap On to up there game

They are directly copying expensive tools to sell at bargain prices

That’s actually pretty innovative especially nowadays

Average poor Joe can get his hands on nice tools at affordable prices

 

[LWB]

They are directly copying expensive tools to sell at bargain prices

That’s actually pretty innovative especially nowadays

Average poor Joe can get his hands on nice tools at affordable prices

Joe can now. There's plenty of nice tools at affordable prices. I used to work with Canadian tire tools only. I did all my life. Very affordable and worked. Lifetime warranty as well. I still use them at work.

My tastes have changed lol Canadian, USA, Japanese and German tools are what I shop for now. No other reason other than I can and they're very nice.

 

[GeoBruin]

The local HF has the G2 ratchets set up exactly like this on an endcap.

I was going to say, the original quote must have been someone who never stepped into a Harbor Freight because every single ratchet and extension is hanging on the wall for you to fiddle with at your leisure.

 

[Ohio Andy]

I was going to say, the original quote must have been someone who never stepped into a Harbor Freight because every single ratchet and extension is hanging on the wall for you to fiddle with at your leisure.

Most of the icon stuff is locked on the wall and the heads are packaged (icon stuff) in a way that you cannot do much other than touch the handle and sometimes you can't even touch the handle.

I funds it difficult to get the packaging apart.

For the two near me anyway, Columbus Ohio

 

[Hakeem]

Making cheaper copies of the same thing isn’t “competition,” and the fact that HF is chasing SnapOn by copying them means that their “game”is just fine.

I’d say Selling a comparable product for less money is a text book example of competition, no?

Otherwise i agree with you - the blatant copying of the snapon aesthetic is unappealing. And this is coming from a guy who has a ton of Icon stuff and is happy with 90% of it.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

I probably own at least a dozen Dual 80's, and I love the mechanism, but I've always disliked SnapOn's locking flex head setup. I find myself using my locking flex Armstrong 88's as a result. In theory, the Icon G2 is my ideal ratchet. I'll probably give one a try if they come out with an extra long 1/4" or 3/8" locking flex. SnapOn never stops at my house, so "ease of warranty" through a driver isn't a value adder for me.

 

[liliysdad]

I’d say Selling a comparable product for less money is a text book example of competition, no?

Otherwise i agree with you - the blatant copying of the snapon aesthetic is unappealing

 

[boxy30]

I swear i read this thread before

 

[zendriver]

Joe can now. There's plenty of nice tools at affordable prices. I used to work with Canadian tire tools only. I did all my life. Very affordable and worked. Lifetime warranty as well. I still use them at work.

My tastes have changed lol Canadian, USA, Japanese and German tools are what I shop for now. No other reason other than I can and they're very nice.

By “nice” I meant snap on nice

I just purchased an icon ratchet $40 I could’ve got Pittsburgh pro or something else looks a little rough, but would certainly get the job done

That’s what this is all about

That’s why the icon stuff flies off the shelf when it’s on sale

 

[IndyGarage]

Dude - I'm not trying to act superior. I'm just trying to be factual in general, and was asking the question so I wasn't talking about what I think you meant vs. what you actually mean. The word "stealing" is what I was trying to be careful about. I wouldn't disagree with you that a lot of the Icon products are SO copies at much more affordable prices for quality that isn't that far off (I know you don't necessarily agree with that part but the information available and my own experience with both brands supports that statement).

I really don't think they're taking meaningful customers or revenue from Snap On, and I'd bet in a quiet room any exec from Snap On would agree: Icon exists mainly in a white space Snap On doesn't (retail, prosumer, mid-tier pricing) and clearly doesn't want to. Snap On sits in a different channel (non-retail, direct and semi-direct, pro-only and premium pricing) and is never going to worry that Icon will hit the core of their revenue and (especially) profit: large corporate contracts and government sales. And given how HF runs things, I don't think they have any real desire to try. They're not even taking a swipe at having an Icon truck fleet, and that's no accident either.

I watch Jeff's channel too, and he pretty consistently says the Icon stuff is dang nice. The Rockwell tests he does tends to show Icon isn't cheaping out on metallurgy (though I don't think that's a super-useful data point because it's only a piece of a bigger design story (which is often going to be where SO makes their differences).

I'm legit not trying to be disrespectful - I'm honestly trying (and failing) to be the opposite.

I'll disagree that icon isn't taking customers from Snap On.

My shop is in the same building as a production mechanic shop. I occasionally have some of the guys come over on the weekends and help me with my projects. The young guys almost all use Icon and other harbor freight stuff. The older guys buy from the tool truck.

If that is any indicator, then Snap On is losing market share and must be scared to death. They have a competitor that sells essentially the same thing for 1/3 the price. Yes they have the convenience of the truck, and they have the financing, but it's not enough to convince these guys to pay the premium price.

 

[KnurledNut]

The 3/8 flex is really Generation 3.
G1 was quickly discontinued b/c of issues.
That was a good looking ratchet.

I have a few of these new G2’s and they are well made. The hybrid SO/Matco design of the locking flex is unique and somewhat the best of both worlds. The SO FX80 was my go-to ratchet but I always had a love/hate relationship with the lock.

The G2 1/2” extra long locking flex is a warrior. I would be surprised if that isn’t one of their best sellers in this series.

I am not a fan of HF/ICON copying Knipex designs, but I don’t mind some healthy competition for Snap-on and their price gouging.

I still think ICON wrenches are the sweet spot in their product line-up. Wish they would release 21-22, 24-27mm versions of the XL Kabo flex ratcheting wrenches. Maybe sold together as an add-on set.

 

[neophyte]

Can you expand on what your saying? If Snap On parts interchange with the G2 ratchet would HF be infringing no matter what other differences they put in the design?

Items routinely get issued US Patents that should not have been issued US Patents, because the Patent claim is not “New or Novel”, and the claim is based on pre-existing technology or techniques.
The Supreme Court once ruled that if two Patents potentially conflicted then it was best to let litigation in the courts decide which Patent was valid, or whether either Patent was valid.
I am currently reading a book on the subject of Plywood, and even going back to the 1850s, there were multiple Patents, covering the exact same technology, that conflicted with each other, and which arguably should never have been issued, since the technique of making Plywood using cross laminated veneer literally went back to at least the late 1700s, and was in common use by knowledgeable wood craftsmen.
Snap-On constantly tinkers with their designs for “better” performance, but the tweaks aren’t usually revolutionary enough to be considered “new and novel” let alone “revolutionary” design changes, and therefore are likely not Patentable, or if a Patent is obtained, the Patent would likely be easily challengeable for anyone with the money to manufacture a similar product and defend their right to manufacture that similar product in court.
Harbor Freight may have copied the ratchet body from Snap-On, but HF used different internals, and got stronger results.
Snap-On ironically could probably just copy the Harbor Freight internals, and see if Harbor Freight filed any Patent Applications, and then challenge those if HF legally complained.

Fir most manufacturing for very well treaded subjects, it’s usually better to just focusing on manufacturing the item efficiently and to a high quality, and let consumers decide.

 

[neophyte]

I'm not going to argue with you as anything I say you really want to pick apart and act superior.

Here's from a youtube channel jeffs garage adventures Snap On vs ICON pliers comparison:




If you're well versed in the business world, you'll explain how ICON isn't a direct copy of the Snap On Version. The point I'm making is that the ICON marketing plan is to be cheap Snap On.

First off.
“Not This Sh!t Again”.

Secondly, yes, Harbor Freight tries to make their tools look like Snap-On.

This is hardly unique in the business world.
Crocs literally makes shoes that look like other brands such as the “Yeezy”.
The original Crocs design was essentially a plastic clog that looked like a copy of a Birkenstock design, but with drainage holes and the flip strap added. (And Patented), but Birkenstock may not have even originated the plastic clog idea.
The Crocs brand has really good attorneys, or friends in high places.
The same is true of car brands for numerous designs.

As far the Snap-On “design” goes, the red foam grips are not unique to Snap-On.
Klein used to sell red foam rubber replacement grips that looked the same.
Crescent used to sell pliers with red foam rubber grips, although I hated the material used.
Proto uses red grips, although the grips are smooth, etc.
The Snap-On needle nose design goes back decades to a Vacuum Grip (a plier brand that Snap-On bought out), however, the Vacuum grip needle/chain nose plier design seems to have possibly been copied from the needle nose design from the Bernard Scollhorn Manufactured pliers.
It could well be older than that company though as well.
The only difference is the wider flat plier legs were the two pieces cross each other, but that is practical plier design, and hardly limited to Snap-On.
The slip Joint pliers are basically copies of numerous other slip joint pliers, except the three pivot holes, out of alignment.
The basic design of these pliers doesn’t even originate with Snap-On, their older slop joint pliers were different, and copied a design going back to at least the mid 1800s.
I don’t know who originated this basic design.
Multi hole slip joint pliers are also not Patentable, and haven’t been for decades.
The out of slignment holes were Oatented by Snap-On, but by manufacturing their own, Icon effectively challenged the Snap-On Oatent, and Snap-On didn’t file a lawsuit, either meaning it wasn’t worth the legal costs, or Snap-On had reason to believe HF could get the Patent annulled.
The wirecutters are wire cutters, I have no clue why these would even be considered an “exclusive” Snap-On design.

Snap-On could make exclusive grips and file a design patent, which is what they have done in the past and why they likely switched from the hard handle design people liked to the current design.
That would protect them for I think 17 years.
They haven’t bothered so far.

 

[M635_Guy]

I'll disagree that icon isn't taking customers from Snap On.

My shop is in the same building as a production mechanic shop. I occasionally have some of the guys come over on the weekends and help me with my projects. The young guys almost all use Icon and other harbor freight stuff. The older guys buy from the tool truck.

Fair. I guess the question is whether the young guys would have found a different alternative if Icon didn't exist. For example Carlyle is an interesting choice - not *quite* a truck model, but close, and less expensive than SO/etfc. (though more than Icon in most cases, which is funny since they seem to make a lot of the same ODM choices...).

I think a lot is changing in that area of SO's business - next or same-day delivery from Amazon, lots more high-quality non-truck options (though not at SO levels, but relatively close...), etc. etc. The truck model is pretty antiquated and I struggle to think it's going to exist in its current form in 10-15 years. But whatever Icon is taking from SO I think SO is soaking up from Cornwell, MAC and Matco as they sorta fade away (I can't say I've looked at their financials, but it's the impression I have).

If that is any indicator, then Snap On is losing market share and must be scared to death. They have a competitor that sells essentially the same thing for 1/3 the price. Yes they have the convenience of the truck, and they have the financing, but it's not enough to convince these guys to pay the premium price.

The important part is that Snap On isn't reliant on the trucks for the bulk of their revenue and especially profit. It's almost certainly their lowest-profit channel and if I recall correctly less than 20% of their revenue. As I said earlier, they get their money from large corporate and government sales - HF/Icon is nowhere near that, and won't be. HF hasn't moved toward a truck model either (and I don't think they will - long-form opinion here).

Ultimately, while the tools are copycat to folks like us, I really think HF runs in a different space. Sure there's overlap, but IMHO the losses folks are pointing at probably weren't Snap On customers anyway.

Harbor Freight may have copied the ratchet body from Snap-On, but HF used different internals, and got stronger results.
Snap-On ironically could probably just copy the Harbor Freight internals, and see if Harbor Freight filed any Patent Applications, and then challenge those if HF legally complained.

There's a database where they can see granted patents/etc., and there's a whole research/"prior art" phase of patent applications to a avoid the double/conflicting patent thing you mentioned. It's also almost certainly how HF (and their ODMs) do their due-diligence to try to stay out of court...

 

[neophyte]

I’d say Selling a comparable product for less money is a text book example of competition, no?

Otherwise i agree with you - the blatant copying of the snapon aesthetic is unappealing. And this is coming from a guy who has a ton of Icon stuff and is happy with 90% of it.

Red foam grips are hardly unique.

 

[neophyte]

I'll disagree that icon isn't taking customers from Snap On.

My shop is in the same building as a production mechanic shop. I occasionally have some of the guys come over on the weekends and help me with my projects. The young guys almost all use Icon and other harbor freight stuff. The older guys buy from the tool truck.

If that is any indicator, then Snap On is losing market share and must be scared to death. They have a competitor that sells essentially the same thing for 1/3 the price. Yes they have the convenience of the truck, and they have the financing, but it's not enough to convince these guys to pay the premium price.

The reason Snap-On is losing market share is price.
Most young mechanics are paid low wages, and expected, or need to have a wide variety of tools to work on most modern vehicles.
Mechanics who can do basic financial budget math, are opting not to purchase Snap-On, because of the high cost of Snap-On tools compared to their wages.
Some young mechanics may splurge on a Snap-On tool here or there if absolutely necessary, or just for the warm and fuzzy desire feeling, but ICON purchases are mostly about cost, and plenty of other tool brands, like Gearwrench, would likely be getting those sales if ICON didn’t exist.

 

[SouthernIllinois]

........ Will this be enough to convince users (especially SO fans) to start buying Icon ratchets?.....

Nope...lol and I'm one of them
(Actually, I own 3 or 4 Icon ratchets. They work well and I like them just fine. Having said that, I reach for the SO one 99% of the time, maybe just because I paid so much for it....lol

I would like to have a Matco locking flex head but to is pricey.

 

[ecotec]

The reason Snap-On is losing market share is price.
Most young mechanics are paid low wages, and expected, or need to have a wide variety of tools to work on most modern vehicles.
Mechanics who can do basic financial budget math, are opting not to purchase Snap-On, because of the high cost of Snap-On tools compared to their wages.
Some young mechanics may splurge on a Snap-On tool here or there if absolutely necessary, or just for the warm and fuzzy desire feeling, but ICON purchases are mostly about cost, and plenty of other tool brands, like Gearwrench, would likely be getting those sales if ICON didn’t exist.

I know a LOT of mechanics that are using Pittsburgh Pro impacts professionally.

 

[IndyGarage]

The reason Snap-On is losing market share is price.
Most young mechanics are paid low wages, and expected, or need to have a wide variety of tools to work on most modern vehicles.
Mechanics who can do basic financial budget math, are opting not to purchase Snap-On, because of the high cost of Snap-On tools compared to their wages.
Some young mechanics may splurge on a Snap-On tool here or there if absolutely necessary, or just for the warm and fuzzy desire feeling, but ICON purchases are mostly about cost, and plenty of other tool brands, like Gearwrench, would likely be getting those sales if ICON didn’t exist.

I think you are saying the same as I.

There were poor young mechanics when I was young as well, but the good ones ended up buying tool truck stuff - why?

The only real good alternative back them was either Craftsman or some cheap foreign junk. And everyone knew, or at least thought, the quality of Craftsman, while good for a DIYer, wasn't as good as the tool truck stuff - even though it was only 20% of the price There was no internet, no torque test channel to make direct comparison. But you also knew that all the professionals around you were using the truck tools, so you might have started out with some cheaper tools, but you wanted the good stuff eventually.

Today, a young guy can walk into a HF store and buy something that is almost identical and by some measures as good or better than the good stuff - at 1/3 the price from day 1. The only reason left to want Snap-on is Made in USA - which is a good one, but doesn't pay the bills.

I actually started out with a full set of cheap Chinese tools - Buffalo brand. I couldn't even afford Craftsman. I still have some of the Buffalo stuff - it's pretty awful, but it fixed a lot of cars. Over time I upgraded to Craftsman and today I have mostly better stuff.