Impact sockets on hand ratchets

[_brian_]

I think that some are still misunderstanding the intent of the thread. I am not suggesting that one buys a set of impact sockets and skips chrome. Nor am I suggesting the other way around. What I am interested in is that there are differences in the product line between the two. When it comes to chrome sockets on impact, there are clear reasons (agree or not) not to do this. When reversed, to me it was not so clear.

I have full sets of 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 drive, deep and shallow, for both impact and chrome.... only a small selection of mids in chrome. I 100% believe and agree with using the right tool for the job. Using the examples provided in my thread, you can see some examples I have provided where the product is not available in both versions. I am a fan of Astro, and it seems others here are as well, so using their nano sockets... there is no chrome version of these I am aware of. Same with the bit sockets. It seems that those are also available in a lower profile in the impact variety than the chrome/hand variety.

Many times in newer vehicles, space is a major factor. I find myself using 1/4 drive for many things that would normally (in my opinion) be a 3/8 drive, or in the older times, 1/2 drive. So when there are sockets of a small/thin/low profile design, those are of interest to me. It also seems that the "low profile" design seems to appear in the impact variety far more than the chrome, causing me to look at those impact sockets for use on hand tools vs impacts as they are designed and marketed for.

 

[Belanice]

Since the cross-section area of the "Hex" is fixed, the strength of the hex bit socket cannot be increased by increasing the thickness. Yield strength can be increased by changing the material or different heat treatments. The catalogs of some brands provide torque data, such as EIGHT and KING TONY. EIGHT hex keys(and bit sockets) are made of SNCM+V, while KING TONY impact bit sockets are made of Cr-Mo. It can be seen from the two pictures that the maximum torque of the hex bit made of SNCM+V is slightly higher than that of Cr-Mo. But in fact, we still need to do some tests to know.

2022/11/29 Edit: Add Bondhus torque capacity.

 

[Belanice]

BTW, I like stubby socket, too.

 

[_brian_]

BTW, I like stubby socket, too.

That is a nice assortment you got there. I see a chrome Astro socket I have not seen before

 

[Belanice]

I think "Astro Pneumatic" is not the same as "Astro Products". Astro Products seems to be a Japanese retailer, I'm not sure.

 

[_brian_]

I think "Astro Pneumatic" is not the same as "Astro Products". Astro Products seems to be a Japanese retailer, I'm not sure.

Yes, I see this. I mistook "Astro Products" for "Astro Tools". Too distracted by the nice looking low profile design

 

[Schurkey]

There are accessories sold for use with impact wrenches that involve a mass held to the extension with a flexible (rubber?) bushing. IF (big IF) the natural frequency of the mass coincides with the frequency of the impacts, the mass adds to the force of the impact gun. (If the mass does not coincide with the frequency of the impacts, it'd reduce the force of the impact gun.) I've seen them advertised, but I don't know what they're called, so I can't find an example on Amazon. I figured they were more "gimmick" "As seen on TV" than useful, so I didn't pay a lot of attention...

Well, I sorta remembered how they worked. Found sockets like I described, kinda by accident, in the End of Year Clearance at www.tooltopia.com. Ingersol-Rand "PowerSockets". Also a photo from www.toolsource.com.

Apparently, the mass is applied directly to the socket, not to the extension bar (so you have to buy each socket individually, dramatically increasing cost--and potential profits.

For example,

Ingersoll Rand 24mm Hex Metric Deep PowerSocket for 1/2in Drive Tool

Ingersoll Rand 24mm Hex Metric Deep PowerSocket for 1/2in Drive Tool

www.tooltopia.com

and

 

[rust in the eye]

" When an extension is driven by hand with a ratchet or breaker bar, there is no difference, at the socket. Torque is not lost on a steady twisting action. "
Lost? no. Stored? YES

I use impact extensions when undoing a tight fastener from a distance, such as the bolts attaching a transmission to the engine.
Using "regular" ones they tend to wind up more and when the fastener breaks loose it is dramatic. Less so when using impact tools.
As for sockets, why not? Aside their typical bulk no reason not to.

 

[_brian_]

" When an extension is driven by hand with a ratchet or breaker bar, there is no difference, at the socket. Torque is not lost on a steady twisting action. "
Lost? no. Stored? YES

So, if I store up enough torque, will my extension remove bolts without an impact?

 

[Lassen Forge]

I used to prefer impacts over chromies, because you have one socket instead of 2, and space was at a premium. Then as I started to work on more modern and somewhat exotic machines, I realized I needed the thinner walls of the chromies because the thicker walls of the impacts just wouldn't fit. But in general - if access isn't an issue I still like the impacts better.

THe other issue is the black finish on impacts does tend to get rusty, where the chromies are less susceptable to the rust demon.

 

[_brian_]

I used to prefer impacts over chromies, because you have one socket instead of 2, and space was at a premium. Then as I started to work on more modern and somewhat exotic machines, I realized I needed the thinner walls of the chromies because the thicker walls of the impacts just wouldn't fit. But in general - if access isn't an issue I still like the impacts better.

THe other issue is the black finish on impacts does tend to get rusty, where the chromies are less susceptable to the rust demon.

For sure, modern cars give people less room to get to things at each new year it seems. I had another thread here on external torx, where I was wanting the E10 and E11 in 1/4 drive vs the more common 3/8, so I 100% get the issue there.

I really do not use my normal / regular impact sockets on chrome ratchets. They are indeed larger in size, rust easier, harder to locate when dropped, etc. The reason this topic came to my mind is when you get the low profile impact sockets. It seems they blur the lines that you and others have shared and most of us know.

Products like the Astro Nano sockets, ARES one piece low profile hex bit sockets, etc seem to offer what seems the best of both sides. But I do not believe this is possible, as there is always a give and a take. So what goes through my mind... if I am using these Astro nano sockets on an impact, are they weaker than normal and might break easier? If I use them on a hand ratchet, are they designed in a way that is very poor on a hand ratchet vs the regular size maybe making no difference?

I tend to dislike products like the "Duo" sockets. I would not purchase them with the intent of a primary for both hand and impact. I would purchase them however for a special reason. A low profile impact use, sure. But for a hand ratchet, I would prefer to use chrome sockets and paying the cost of more sockets, unless there is a tangible benefit to do otherwise. It is just puzzling to me that the Astro nano sockets (as example) are a tool that is only available in impact (in that design/style), since I purchased them for hand use. There is a mismatch in there somewhere. Note that I understand they were marketed for use with the nano impacts.

 

[Sugarfryz]

That is interesting. I wonder if the "give" of an impact socket has any impact when used with a torque wrench? I would assume if it did, it would be minimal and almost negligible, but I do wonder.

With the tighter and looser fit, I am curious. Are impact sockets using different standards than chrome sockets? Or possibly what you experience is using the tooling further into the wearing than they do with chrome?

On rounded fasteners at work, sometimes an impact socket will slip where a chrome will not. I don’t attribute it to chromes having a “better fit” I just think the impacts are worn from impacting. They’re designed to wear instead of crack and shatter. They take a lot more beating than my chromes, and are used a lot more so the chromes are usually tighter on bolt. It only matters 1/1000 bolts.

 

[Marlin]

As an engineer that has worked in power tool and hand tool development for 34 years I can tell you that there is a lot of overthinking going on in this thread and many other threads.

 

[Lassen Forge]

As an engineer that has worked in power tool and hand tool development for 34 years I can tell you that there is a lot of overthinking going on in this thread and many other threads.

I was told (more than once) the impact sockets are made from a more malliable steel than chromies, which is both why they can take the abuse the thinner-walled chromies would shatter under, and why they are subject to wearing out (eg wallering out) under heavy use, making replacement necessary every so often... Wondering if you can confirm that or not... it seems true, at least to this end-user.

I have a IIRC very heavily abused 36 or 44mm SO impact (I got from a friend) I use as a paperweight... it had gone from the "fastener remover" stage to the "fastener rounder" stage.

 

[p00p]

impacts sockets tend to be more "husky" . the job may dictate which I will grab due to space/weight, depth, point, etc. Most of my non impact 3/8" drive sockets are six pt, deep section thin walled, which brings about some assumed risky business if using an impact. I find myself wiping the the ole impact sockets down with rust inhibitor oil more than I use them thesedays.

 

[bigenos]

One reason I don't like impact sockets (especially deep well) for hand use is the weight. If I was a pro mechanic working 10 hours a day that would matter to me.

I put chrome sockets on my impact all the time. Very few issues, but I'm just a ******* IT guy who wrenches on the weekend.

 

[Wakefield]

Then there are the specialty sockets like the Koken lug sockets that are supposed to be friendly to fancy wheels-plastic sleeve on the outside. Look like a tiny torque stick with the socket on one end, Half inch drive on the other, I don't know if they are impact rated. Looks like it can take a hog ring.

 

[jsaw]

One reason I don't like impact sockets (especially deep well) for hand use is the weight. If I was a pro mechanic working 10 hours a day that would matter

I will admit that 1/2" impact so let's may be a little heavier than non impact sockets. 1/4 & 3/8" impact sockets are not really my h heavier than non impact so let's IME.

 

[oldschoolcraft]

downsides To using impact sockets on handheld ratchets instead of chrome:

• The impact has a black oxide coating that will rust a lot faster than a chrome will.
• The impact is made of a softer material to reduce its brittleness and prevent shattering which means it will wear out faster.
• Impacts may not be available in weird SAE sizes like 25/32” that you probably don’t need anyway but if you do, there’s only chrome available
• Impact sockets are thicker walled to provide more strength and might not provide as much clearance as a thinner chrome socket for tight areas
• The impact being thicker also makes it heavier which increases fatigue of use
• impacts generally come in 6-point and you may need 12-point to deal with 12-point fasteners
• Impacts look less cool and Americans love their shiny chrome sockets

A lot of really experienced pro mechanics here say that they get away with chrome in 1/4 and 3/8 And their 1/2 are only impacts with zero chrome 1/2 drive

 

[dchawk81]

downsides To using impact sockets on handheld ratchets instead of chrome:

• The impact has a black oxide coating that will rust a lot faster than a chrome will.
• The impact is made of a softer material to reduce its brittleness and prevent shattering which means it will wear out faster.
• Impacts may not be available in weird SAE sizes like 25/32” that you probably don’t need anyway but if you do, there’s only chrome available
• Impact sockets are thicker walled to provide more strength and might not provide as much clearance as a thinner chrome socket for tight areas
• The impact being thicker also makes it heavier which increases fatigue of use
• impacts generally come in 6-point and you may need 12-point to deal with 12-point fasteners
• Impacts look less cool and Americans love their shiny chrome sockets

A lot of really experienced pro mechanics here say that they get away with chrome in 1/4 and 3/8 And their 1/2 are only impacts with zero chrome 1/2 drive

Not even 9 bucks.

Genius Tools 1/2" Dr. 25/32" Deep Impact Socket (CR-Mo) - 467825 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CCXWX8/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[joel_400]

20mm is darn close....
Joel

 

[AEAdam]

Yeah.. let me see if I can help:

The difference between impact and a steady applied force (or torque) is that the applied force in an impulse can be super high. The amount of time the force is applied is very critical.

Impact guns are like a hammer hitting a nail over and over again. The motion of the hammer generates momentum. The momentum of the hammer is its weight times velocity or Mv.

At the point of impact, the velocity goes to zero and the momentum is converted into force times time (time it takes to decelerate)

Mv = S FdT

When the time is short, the force generated can be astronomical (tons)

The fastener doesn’t typically yield for 2 reasons, the time is super short and the metal doesn’t have time to respond to the shock. Some of the impulse becomes momentum as the fastener rotates.

Keep hitting it, eventually the head (or socket) will plastically deform. If you use a harder chrome socket on an impact, the hardness of the metal reduces the time of impact increasing force and creating the potential to shatter the socket. It’s not just that the socket is more brittle. More force is generated.

A constant applied force can generate high local stresses that can exceed the fasteners yield strength. Once that happens steel starts moving and the contact patch can move further toward the corner where there’s less capability to resist that load. This how you can round a steel fastener head.

Remember, your 50lbs of force applied 10” from the axis of rotation produces 500inlbs of torque.

At the head of the fastener that 500inlbs could be applied 1/2” (or easily less) from the axis of rotation, producing a 1000lb load on the fastener head (hopefully distributed to several corners). That’s how sockets work. We think about it as a torque which it is, but the socket sees an force radially pushing it out of round.

So:
A fresh battery makes the gun go faster (v) which generates more momentum resulting in more torque.

A heavier socket (m) increases momentum resulting in more torque.

I THINK a little rotation in the socket(slop) is beneficial as it likely increases the time of rotation and thus speed at the hit.

Impacts work because they don’t act long enough for the fastener head to yield. But over time, yielding would occur and we see that in our sockets, which are sacrificial.

You shouldn’t use impacts by hand because they don’t contact the fastener in the right spot and could actually damage the fastener.

Light weight impact sockets probably aren’t a great idea for removing stuck stuff. But thin should be okay.

Impulses aside, torque in = torque out. There is no torque loss working by hand, no advantage in using impact extensions by hand.

Chrome Bit sockets typically have bits that are harder and tighter fitting than the chromed steel socket. Never use a chrome bit socket in an impact (unless it’s s really low torque model- that might be okay but I wouldn’t let my kids do it).

Don’t know if impact bit sockets have the same clearance as chrome ones do. If not, no way I’d use them by hand.

Hope this helps.

 

[dchawk81]

Yeah.. let me see if I can help:

The difference between impact and a steady applied force (or torque) is that the applied force in an impulse can be super high. The amount of time the force is applied is very critical.

Impact guns are like a hammer hitting a nail over and over again. The motion of the hammer generates momentum. The momentum of the hammer is its weight times velocity or Mv.

At the point of impact, the velocity goes to zero and the momentum is converted into force times time (time it takes to decelerate)

Mv = S FdT

When the time is short, the force generated can be astronomical (tons)

The fastener doesn’t typically yield for 2 reasons, the time is super short and the metal doesn’t have time to respond to the shock. Some of the impulse becomes momentum as the fastener rotates.

Keep hitting it, eventually the head (or socket) will plastically deform. If you use a harder chrome socket on an impact, the hardness of the metal reduces the time of impact increasing force and creating the potential to shatter the socket. It’s not just that the socket is more brittle. More force is generated.

A constant applied force can generate high local stresses that can exceed the fasteners yield strength. Once that happens steel starts moving and the contact patch can move further toward the corner where there’s less capability to resist that load. This how you can round a steel fastener head.

Remember, your 50lbs of force applied 10” from the axis of rotation produces 500inlbs of torque.

At the head of the fastener that 500inlbs could be applied 1/2” (or easily less) from the axis of rotation, producing a 1000lb load on the fastener head (hopefully distributed to several corners). That’s how sockets work. We think about it as a torque which it is, but the socket sees an force radially pushing it out of round.

So:
A fresh battery makes the gun go faster (v) which generates more momentum resulting in more torque.

A heavier socket (m) increases momentum resulting in more torque.

I THINK a little rotation in the socket(slop) is beneficial as it likely increases the time of rotation and thus speed at the hit.

Impacts work because they don’t act long enough for the fastener head to yield. But over time, yielding would occur and we see that in our sockets, which are sacrificial.

You shouldn’t use impacts by hand because they don’t contact the fastener in the right spot and could actually damage the fastener.

Light weight impact sockets probably aren’t a great idea for removing stuck stuff. But thin should be okay.

Impulses aside, torque in = torque out. There is no torque loss working by hand, no advantage in using impact extensions by hand.

Chrome Bit sockets typically have bits that are harder and tighter fitting than the chromed steel socket. Never use a chrome bit socket in an impact (unless it’s s really low torque model- that might be okay but I wouldn’t let my kids do it).

Don’t know if impact bit sockets have the same clearance as chrome ones do. If not, no way I’d use them by hand.

Hope this helps.

There's really no harm in using an impact socket manually. If they can take a beating from an impact, they'll be fine with your arm romping into it.

 

[AEAdam]

There's really no harm in using an impact socket manually. If they can take a beating from an impact, they'll be fine with your arm romping into it.

Sorry my post was so long.

What an impact does is really nothing like working by hand. In this case, it’s not a matter of comparing your applied torque with the gun’s max output.

If my post was confusing, PM me and I’ll try to answer.

 

[dchawk81]

Sorry my post was so long.

What an impact does is really nothing like working by hand. In this case, it’s not a matter of comparing your applied torque with the gun’s max output.

If my post was confusing, PM me and I’ll try to answer.

It's not confusing it's just not correct. You are simply not going to harm an impact socket by turning it by hand.

You're also incorrect about them not contacting the fastener in the right spot. If that were true, you'd be rounding off fasteners left and right with a impact. Fitment and wall contact is determined by manufacturing tolerances and condition, not whether it's chrome molybdenum or chrome vanadium.

 

[ecotec]

Well, I sorta remembered how they worked. Found sockets like I described, kinda by accident, in the End of Year Clearance at www.tooltopia.com. Ingersol-Rand "PowerSockets". Also a photo from www.toolsource.com.

Apparently, the mass is applied directly to the socket, not to the extension bar (so you have to buy each socket individually, dramatically increasing cost--and potential profits.

For example,

Ingersoll Rand 24mm Hex Metric Deep PowerSocket for 1/2in Drive Tool

Ingersoll Rand 24mm Hex Metric Deep PowerSocket for 1/2in Drive Tool

www.tooltopia.com

and

I remember those. I don’t know anyone that has ever had one.

I have the Lisle version of harmonic balancer sockets that most people have.

 

[dchawk81]

Yeah.. let me see if I can help:

The difference between impact and a steady applied force (or torque) is that the applied force in an impulse can be super high. The amount of time the force is applied is very critical.

Impact guns are like a hammer hitting a nail over and over again. The motion of the hammer generates momentum. The momentum of the hammer is its weight times velocity or Mv.

At the point of impact, the velocity goes to zero and the momentum is converted into force times time (time it takes to decelerate)

Mv = S FdT

When the time is short, the force generated can be astronomical (tons)

The fastener doesn’t typically yield for 2 reasons, the time is super short and the metal doesn’t have time to respond to the shock. Some of the impulse becomes momentum as the fastener rotates.

Keep hitting it, eventually the head (or socket) will plastically deform. If you use a harder chrome socket on an impact, the hardness of the metal reduces the time of impact increasing force and creating the potential to shatter the socket. It’s not just that the socket is more brittle. More force is generated.

A constant applied force can generate high local stresses that can exceed the fasteners yield strength. Once that happens steel starts moving and the contact patch can move further toward the corner where there’s less capability to resist that load. This how you can round a steel fastener head.

Remember, your 50lbs of force applied 10” from the axis of rotation produces 500inlbs of torque.

At the head of the fastener that 500inlbs could be applied 1/2” (or easily less) from the axis of rotation, producing a 1000lb load on the fastener head (hopefully distributed to several corners). That’s how sockets work. We think about it as a torque which it is, but the socket sees an force radially pushing it out of round.

So:
A fresh battery makes the gun go faster (v) which generates more momentum resulting in more torque.

A heavier socket (m) increases momentum resulting in more torque.

I THINK a little rotation in the socket(slop) is beneficial as it likely increases the time of rotation and thus speed at the hit.

Impacts work because they don’t act long enough for the fastener head to yield. But over time, yielding would occur and we see that in our sockets, which are sacrificial.

You shouldn’t use impacts by hand because they don’t contact the fastener in the right spot and could actually damage the fastener.

Light weight impact sockets probably aren’t a great idea for removing stuck stuff. But thin should be okay.

Impulses aside, torque in = torque out. There is no torque loss working by hand, no advantage in using impact extensions by hand.

Chrome Bit sockets typically have bits that are harder and tighter fitting than the chromed steel socket. Never use a chrome bit socket in an impact (unless it’s s really low torque model- that might be okay but I wouldn’t let my kids do it).

Don’t know if impact bit sockets have the same clearance as chrome ones do. If not, no way I’d use them by hand.

Hope this helps.

BTW, slop in the socket whether it's between the fastener and the broaching or the anvil is a bad thing. It's a place to lose torque just like an extension.

All the impacting, in a perfect world, happens inside the impact wrench. That's why you'll get the best results out of an impact by holding it as tight and straight as possible against the fastener and use the best fitting sockets you can acquire. Obviously the world isn't perfect but the looser a socket fits, the more likely you are to round off the fastener long before ever breaking it loose.

And you don't want that socket anywhere near the corners. That's why the broachings have radius designs.

Again, none of this makes using an impact socket with a hand tool like a ratchet a bad thing. Most people don't just because they're heavier compared to their thin walled chrome vanadium counterparts. It has nothing to do with being a good or bad idea or harmful in any way whatsoever.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO and limited experience, i have been using both impact and chrome sockets on hand ratchets.

 

[AEAdam]

It's not confusing it's just not correct. You are simply not going to harm an impact socket by turning it by hand.

You're also incorrect about them not contacting the fastener in the right spot. If that were true, you'd be rounding off fasteners left and right with a impact. Fitment and wall contact is determined by manufacturing tolerances and condition, not whether it's chrome molybdenum or chrome vanadium.

Okay. Yeah, as I wrote I don’t know. The concern was rounding the nut, not damaging the socket. I feel as tho impact sockets rotate more than chrome, but that’s just my gut feeling. Don’t know of any studies off hand, but there was a great thread here years ago comparing contact patches for chrome sockets. Very interesting.

A little slop in an impact would do exactly as I said. Post above explains why. Not sure if that’s how impact sockets are designed or not. I know Grey Pneumatic recommends against using impacts with hand tools. It’s right on their website. If impacts did the same job as chrome, why wouldnt everyone switch? They aren’t always thicker.

 

[dchawk81]

Okay. Yeah, as I wrote I don’t know. The concern was rounding the nut, not damaging the socket. I feel as tho impact sockets rotate more than chrome, but that’s just my gut feeling. Don’t know of any studies off hand, but there was a great thread here years ago comparing contact patches for chrome sockets. Very interesting.

A little slop in an impact would do exactly as I said. Post above explains why. Not sure if that’s how impact sockets are designed or not. I know Grey Pneumatic recommends against using impacts with hand tools. It’s right on their website. If impacts did the same job as chrome, why wouldnt everyone switch? They aren’t always thicker.

Impacting is more forceful than hand. If you're going to round it by hand with an impact socket, impacting it with an impact socket will only round it faster. There's no magical extra special tightness when you use an impact wrench with an impact socket instead of a ratchet with an impact socket.

I don't see why you don't understand this.

 

[Pinemarten]

It would be interesting to see the hardness of like brands of sockets, impact vs chrome. I would think the hardness might be very similar, but the toughness of the chrome moly may well exceed that of the chrome vanadium.

Anybody with access to a Hardness Tester out there?

 

[oldschoolcraft]

If impacts did the same job as chrome, why wouldnt everyone switch? They aren’t always thicker.

I‘m no pro, but judging by posts on this forum, it seems like a lot of people have switched. I see tons of posts of guys saying “if I were starting over again, I’d get my 1/2” drive in impacts only”

 

[oldschoolcraft]

I know Grey Pneumatic recommends against using impacts with hand tools. It’s right on their website.

I had to look it up. You’re right.

”Only use impact sockets with power driven or impact tools. Do not use impact sockets with hand tools such as ratchets, breaker bars, leverage bars or torque multipliers.”

Safety Information | Grey Pneumatic

Learn the safety tips when using impact sockets or chisels.

www.gpsocket.com

I wonder if theres concern the impact socket being softer than a chrome might deform if you use a 4 foot breaker bar on it. Notice that they specifically call out four examples, ratchets is one, but all of the rest are ways that would generate more torque than an impact gun.

I also wonder if it’s a way to weasel out of liability. They can say “well you got hurt or caused damage using it on a ratchet and we said not to do it, so we refuse to pay you out for harm caused”

You figure such a statement wouldn’t prevent anyone from buying their impact sockets so it’s essentially a “free” liability waiver Since posting it won’t reduce their business profits any and it might result in some liability protection in court.

 

[craftsman creep]

I would say if if you’re using a breaker bar where you are putting a high amount of force, on a socket, or extension, putting an impact socket or extension on it wouldn’t hurt anything
-Preston

 

[Wakefield]

downsides To using impact sockets on handheld ratchets instead of chrome:

• The impact has a black oxide coating that will rust a lot faster than a chrome will.
• The impact is made of a softer material to reduce its brittleness and prevent shattering which means it will wear out faster.
• Impacts may not be available in weird SAE sizes like 25/32” that you probably don’t need anyway but if you do, there’s only chrome available
• Impact sockets are thicker walled to provide more strength and might not provide as much clearance as a thinner chrome socket for tight areas
• The impact being thicker also makes it heavier which increases fatigue of use
• impacts generally come in 6-point and you may need 12-point to deal with 12-point fasteners
• Impacts look less cool and Americans love their shiny chrome sockets

A lot of really experienced pro mechanics here say that they get away with chrome in 1/4 and 3/8 And their 1/2 are only impacts with zero chrome 1/2 drive

There are a few impact sockets or tools that look like an extension with a 12 point impact socket end for the business end that are 12 point. I think there is one for reaching into a deep recess for taking a Subaru engine case apart. Also for working on U joints. (For working with 12 point fasteners)
I think few if any chrome sockets on a breaker bar would hold up to as much force/torque as my good old Bonney 17 mm. impact socket and it although not "deep" is deep enough to accommodate the height of a 17 mm. lug Bolt head.
Maybe the perception that impact sockets have a looser fit than chrome sockets is because those particular impact sockets were already a little bit wallowed out because of use on air impact guns.

 

[AEAdam]

Impacting is more forceful than hand. If you're going to round it by hand with an impact socket, impacting it with an impact socket will only round it faster. There's no magical extra special tightness when you use an impact wrench with an impact socket instead of a ratchet with an impact socket.

I don't see why you don't understand this.

Good discussion. Thanks.

Heres the part I’m sure about: Impact wrenches apply enormous torque but don’t damage fasteners because the torque is applied so quickly. If you applied the exact same amount of torque (or much lower) by hand, you’d damage the fastener head. The physics explains the phenomenon we’ve all experienced.

Here’s the part I’m not sure about: I don’t think it really matters where the impact socket contacts the fastener. It hits so fast, even if it’s hitting a corner, either by design or because the impact socket is worn, it will still work. That’s the magic of an impulse.

If the interior broaching of the impact socket is identical to the chrome, then I think I agree with you, it shouldn’t matter how you drive it. But I SUSPECT the broaching is not the same. It’s sloppier, which makes impacts cheaper, and the impulse doesn’t care. I’m guessing. This would also explain why GP recommends against using their impacts with ratchets.

Sorry if we’re talking past each other. Sorry for the distraction.

 

[joel63]

IMHO and limited experience, i have been using both impact and chrome sockets on hand ratchets.

As far as I can tell, it works. Right?
I use whatever I need get the job completed.
But NEVER chrome on impact!

 

[oldschoolcraft]

If the interior broaching of the impact socket is identical to the chrome, then I think I agree with you, it shouldn’t matter how you drive it. But I SUSPECT the broaching is not the same. It’s sloppier, which makes impacts cheaper, and the impulse doesn’t care. I’m guessing. This would also explain why GP recommends against using their impacts with ratchets.

That’s an interesting idea. That the impact socket is created with less precision than a chrome socket. A small amount of sloppiness doesn’t matter as much on an impact because of the nature of how quickly the small impacts occur, you build momentum in the fastener and aren’t applying a crooked load to the fastener head. Even if the socket is sloppy fitting.

I’ll add to your idea. That maybe it isn’t necessarily the impact socket is sloppier by manufacture but that it becomes sloppier over time in use on an impaxt gun because it’s a softer material than chrome, because you don’t want it to shatter, you want it to deform slowly over time rather than build up micro fractures until it shatter.


‘If that’s the case then we can say using new impact sockets on hand ratchets is fine, but once the impact is used as an impact for a while, it deforms a bit and using it on a hand ratchet would result in damaging the fastener. Whereas the sloppy fit doesn’t hurt it’s use on an impact wrench due to nature of how it’s hitting.

 

[Wakefield]

I can't visualize how a quick strike would be easier on a hex shaped fastener head than a steady hand applied force (if the peak force is equal) but I have heard that an airgun/impact will sometimes successfully turn a screw/bolt out where a breaker bar would have sheared off the bolt below the head or broken off the end down in the bore --
-- the Ford tong style sparkplug that gets varnished into being stuck in its hole such that the tong with the electrode tip breaks off below the threads and stays down in the hole--it has been reported that these often come out with no problem when a small electric impact wrench is used? (without going through a complicated process of loosening the plugs very slightly,soaking with solvent such as Kroil overnight,and then working back and forth before trying to screw it all of the way out)

 

[oldschoolcraft]

I can't visualize how a quick strike would be easier on a hex shaped fastener head than a steady hand applied force (if the peak force is equal)

Here’s how to visualize it.

Suppose you are going to punch into drywall. John Wick style to retrieve your hidden weapon cache. Theres two ways you can punch into the drywall. Super fast and hard. Or slow and steady. Either way you will generate the same total energy of the punch. Just a matter of whether the energy is delivered in one quick instant blow or slowly over 2 seconds.

One of those punches will effectively punch a hole in the drywall and leave your hand relatively unscathed. The other will not punch a hole and you’ll break your hand/wrist.

Theres something about a super quick forceful hit that causes the object receiving the force to move. Whether it be drywall particles moving out of the way of John wicks fist or a fastener moving along the threads. If the quick hit results in the second object moving, you don’t have as much damage or deformation because the energy was successfully applied into moving the Thing. If the force wasn’t successful in moving the thing, deformation occurs. In the fastener head or your fist.

The energy either causes one thing to move or one or both things to deform.