Is Harbor Freight reading GJ

[Skin]

I need to re-read that, do you have a linky? Thanks

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57071

 

[Interex]

When they see the ratchet comparison thread, we'll probably see those selling for as much as SO's.

 

[Bolster]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57071

Thanks. OK, my old Cman raised panels gotta go.

 

[southernfriedcj]

Many of the list prices have been raised significantly. We don't notice it because the sale prices are about the same. And look over there! Ponies! Urmm, free flashlights!

 

[JohnFreeman]

I'm a weekend warrior , but I really appreciate quality tools. I'm never EVER going to pick up a tool and say "Man, I'm really glad I bought the very cheapest....Chinese!"

There's pride in ownership of quality American tools. There's also a nice feeling knowing at least in this one instance, I'm able not to finance the ambitions of a country whose leaders want to crush us into the dirt.

John

I don't think HF has penetrated the board.It's more like the board demographic is changing from the older guys who liked higher quality brands to newer members who haven't come to appreciate the quality brands yet.Maybe more new do it yourselfers than pro techs.It will change again when they get tired of busting their knuckles.

 

[juiced10]

I'm a weekend warrior , but I really appreciate quality tools. I'm never EVER going to pick up a tool and say "Man, I'm really glad I bought the very cheapest....Chinese!"

There's pride in ownership of quality American tools. There's also a nice feeling knowing at least in this one instance, I'm able not to finance the ambitions of a country whose leaders want to crush us into the dirt.

John

There is also a lot of pride being debt free and saving for your retirement at 55. Pride is also in completing a job on your own even if it is with the "cheapest tools".

 

[Bolster]

I'm a weekend warrior , but I really appreciate quality tools. I'm never EVER going to pick up a tool and say "Man, I'm really glad I bought the very cheapest....Chinese!"

There's pride in ownership of quality American tools. There's also a nice feeling knowing at least in this one instance, I'm able not to finance the ambitions of a country whose leaders want to crush us into the dirt.

John

You're a brave man, John Freeman.

 

[Vinko]

This has been said before, but here goes again: Marketing 101.

In a mature marketplace, the "middle" options are usually crowded with manufacturers (Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Nissan, etc, that's where most the money is made).

Opportunities to enter the marketplace as a new player exist at the top (producing a new luxury brand: Delorean, Tesla) or at the bottom (producing a new value brand: Hundai, Yugo). If they are successful, they usually move to the middle once established. (Such as Hundai now making more respectable cars, and Cadillac or Mercedes not being what they once were). There's always pressure to move to the middle, because that's where the money is. "Pressure toward mediocrity."

So it's no surprise that a mature HF will start making better tools, and charging more. That's how marketplaces go.

And, this theory would predict that Snap-on would eventually cheapen their tools. They seem to have resisted it pretty much so far, good for them. But to resist, they must fight that inevitable "pressure toward mediocrity" that's in the marketplace.

As a marketing theory, it won't explain every example. You can always find counterexamples here and there. But it explains a lot.

I have no idea about marketing as an academic subject: but the notion that the middle is a position of mediocrity in the pejorative sense (rather than strictly the literal) doesn't seem reasonable to me.

In fact, the middle is the very thing we've lost: quality, value, consistency.

And with so many things, we are left with the extremes: expensive and high-quality, or junk.

I'd be willing to give examples from a wide-ranging field of consumer objects if you like.

edit: besides that one specific critique of your message, what I'd really want to object to is the idea that the marketplace is at all rational or governed by laws.

 

[Vinko]

Yes, I am a covert operative and they pay me in secret 20% off coupons that they insert into my newspaper every Sunday.

The NY Times had an article a while back on how all sorts of representatives of companies get on websites to tout their products. Some of them identify themselves others do not. I'm not suggesting it's happening here.

Slightly changing the topic: touting your products on enthusiast sites like this would seem fruitful, esp. for the "little guy". Think of how well Mike Wren has done here compared to if he just set up a website and waited for sales to come in. I think websites like this have all sorts of possibilities for promotion. Some up front (like Wren), and others more covert.

 

[mrholeshot]

I don't think HF has penetrated the board.It's more like the board demographic is changing from the older guys who liked higher quality brands to newer members who haven't come to appreciate the quality brands yet.Maybe more new do it yourselfers than pro techs.It will change again when they get tired of busting their knuckles.

I'm getting up in age and have been through all this. Ive seen brands come and go and spent tons of money on quality hand tools all my life. I brainwashed myself into thinking it was the only way. At one time I had nothing but Snap-On ratchets in my personal box. Nothing else was allowed it. My box was an exclusive club for nothing but the most elite brands of tools. I had boxes of other tools in my shop for students, starters and oil change guys. I wouldn't buy expensive tools to get left under hoods (it happens to pros as well) hammered on and such. Funny thing happened. That **** was doing the job. When one of my sons came to work for me I gave him a box for assorted tools to work with and told him to start building his own collection of quality tools. Over about a two year period he bought his own tools and hardly a single tool truck brand. He is now the lead technician at the local Toyota dealer. He doesn't spend a bunch of money on big name brands. The only things that matter to him is the quality of his work. He is good enough that he doesn't need the prestiege of owning a 20,000 dollar tool box. I didn't quite unstand his thinking until he told me one day that the tool takes the bolt out and puts it back in. If it withstands the torque needed to do the task day in and day out it doesn't matter whos name is on the tool. He owns a lot of C-Man, SK and even some HF. He's a smart kid who appreciates quality tools. He's smart enough to know sometimes they come from differant countries. He owns a lot of gearwrench stuff. Striaght out of Tiawan.

 

[z28snksknr]

I don't think HF has penetrated the board.It's more like the board demographic is changing from the older guys who liked higher quality brands to newer members who haven't come to appreciate the quality brands yet.Maybe more new do it yourselfers than pro techs.It will change again when they get tired of busting their knuckles.

I've noticed this too, and it seemed to have happened pretty quickly. I've also noticed a fair amount of older members not being around much anymore. If this place fills up with idiots and loses the people that add value, that's going to be depressing.

BTW, I don't care how many pro-HF threads there are - I've broken too much from that place to change my mind about it.

 

[Bull]

I've noticed this too, and it seemed to have happened pretty quickly. I've also noticed a fair amount of older members not being around much anymore. If this place fills up with idiots and loses the people that add value, that's going to be depressing.

BTW, I don't care how many pro-HF threads there are - I've broken too much from that place to change my mind about it.

Anyone who leaves purely because they dislike the direction of a board's discussion is missing the point. On a discussion forum, a multiplicity of viewpoints is required. It would be excruciatingly dull if everyone sat around by their keyboards waiting for the latest "Brand X" thread to appear so they could all chime in with "Yup, me too, I love 'em." If people can't respectfully observe a variety of viewpoints and also know how respectfully to disagree with those viewpoints, there is a problem.

On another note: do you avoid Japanese products? At one time, post-WWII, products from Japan were derided for their comparative lack of quality. Now, their products are respected and in fact often preferred.

 

[Vinko]

I'm getting up in age and have been through all this. Ive seen brands come and go and spent tons of money on quality hand tools all my life. I brainwashed myself into thinking it was the only way. At one time I had nothing but Snap-On ratchets in my personal box. Nothing else was allowed it. My box was an exclusive club for nothing but the most elite brands of tools. I had boxes of other tools in my shop for students, starters and oil change guys. I wouldn't buy expensive tools to get left under hoods (it happens to pros as well) hammered on and such. Funny thing happened. That **** was doing the job. When one of my sons came to work for me I gave him a box for assorted tools to work with and told him to start building his own collection of quality tools. Over about a two year period he bought his own tools and hardly a single tool truck brand. He is now the lead technician at the local Toyota dealer. He doesn't spend a bunch of money on big name brands. The only things that matter to him is the quality of his work. He is good enough that he doesn't need the prestiege of owning a 20,000 dollar tool box. I didn't quite unstand his thinking until he told me one day that the tool takes the bolt out and puts it back in. If it withstands the torque needed to do the task day in and day out it doesn't matter whos name is on the tool. He owns a lot of C-Man, SK and even some HF. He's a smart kid who appreciates quality tools. He's smart enough to know sometimes they come from differant countries. He owns a lot of gearwrench stuff. Striaght out of Tiawan.

Off-topic, hope not inappropriate: why didn't your son continue your business? Did he ever express the desire to have his own shop?

 

[Kurt4440]

The NY Times had an article a while back on how all sorts of representatives of companies get on websites to tout their products. Some of them identify themselves others do not. I'm not suggesting it's happening here.

Slightly changing the topic: touting your products on enthusiast sites like this would seem fruitful, esp. for the "little guy". Think of how well Mike Wren has done here compared to if he just set up a website and waited for sales to come in. I think websites like this have all sorts of possibilities for promotion. Some up front (like Wren), and others more covert.

So what would stop a company like Harbor Freight from promoting their products on a forum such as this?
Could it be their family values?

 

[impulse922]

So what would stop a company like Harbor Freight from promoting their products on a forum such as this?
Could it be their family values?

Merk probably threatened to burn the painting if they even thought 'bout comin' 'round these parts.

 

[T1320T]

I'll admit, I do own a few (literally a FEW) HF tools.... a press being the largest of my HF tools (it was a gift). I guess I'm still looking for this "quality" that guys are referring to. Like mentioned above, I've busted too many fingers/knuckles using their stuff. Heck, I rarely use a heat gun so I figured it'd be a prime HF tool to buy... used it twice, it began smoking like a freight train.. quality, value?? Huh. I've had to borrow a buddy's HF ball joint tool a few times & it scares the **** out of my everytime. Their tools are just plain scary IMO.

 

[yiranhu]

The Chinese are coming of age. Now that they can afford/buy cars/luxuries, they need/want more $$$/hr. Hopefully, this trend will swing manufacturing back this way.

Nope. There's plenty of other places to exploit... Just keep going south in the Asia continent: India, Malalysia, Africa... When there's still cheap labor around, manufacturer will keep moving their operations.

When cheap labor is gone, like in 50 years, then technology will take over. Robots will be the work horse rather than human.

 

[Bolster]

Nope. There's plenty of other places to exploit... Just keep going south in the Asia continent: India, Malalysia, Africa....

LOL, so you are saying: someday soon, the Chinese will be on GJ complaining about the low quality of those Indian tools...followed by the Indians complaining about the quality of African tools...followed by the Africans complaining about those crappy Robot-made tools.

 

[z28snksknr]

Anyone who leaves purely because they dislike the direction of a board's discussion is missing the point. On a discussion forum, a multiplicity of viewpoints is required. It would be excruciatingly dull if everyone sat around by their keyboards waiting for the latest "Brand X" thread to appear so they could all chime in with "Yup, me too, I love 'em." If people can't respectfully observe a variety of viewpoints and also know how respectfully to disagree with those viewpoints, there is a problem.

On another note: do you avoid Japanese products? At one time, post-WWII, products from Japan were derided for their comparative lack of quality. Now, their products are respected and in fact often preferred.

Realize I said "If this place fills up with idiots and loses the people that add value, that's going to be depressing." You can have a contrary viewpoint and still add value to a discussion.

You're the one who linked "idiots" with HF supporters

 

[Bolster]

On a discussion forum, a multiplicity of viewpoints is required. It would be excruciatingly dull if everyone sat around by their keyboards waiting for the latest "Brand X" thread to appear so they could all chime in with "Yup, me too, I love 'em."

While I totally agree, my contention is that, at one point in the recent past, I got the distinct impression that no more criticism of HF was allowed at GJ...

I for one have been careful NOT to criticize HF tools since that time, because I don't want to get booted from the board. BUT, what does that say about diversity of opinion being welcome here?

I agree, uniformly pleasant cheerleading would be so dull and non-educational as to not be worth the time to read the forum.

 

[Bull]

Actually, I didn't link anyone to anything! I didn't mention HF or any other brand. I am stating that, in general, a multiplicity of viewpoints is essential.

The idea that one group of people is leaving because they are frustrated with "idiots" joining is rather insulting to new members and also just a lame move. "Uh-oh, newbies are coming in with different ideas. I gotta bounce."

Maybe you could clarify what "adds value" to a discussion and what doesn't.

Realize I said "If this place fills up with idiots and loses the people that add value, that's going to be depressing." You can have a contrary viewpoint and still add value to a discussion.

You're the one who linked "idiots" with HF supporters

 

[Bull]

I know which post of Ryan's you are referring to.

His point was that he does not want all the "HF vs. SO" cage matches, with each side throwing increasingly larger and more gooey piles of poo at the other.

Sharing your honest, first-hand opinion of ANY tool or brand is what we want. What we DON'T want is when someone starts an SO thread, and someone comes in and says "My HF blabiddy-blah will do that better for 1/4 the cost. SO is for rich showoffs." Conversely, when someone shares a positive HF tool story, we don't want people coming in and saying "All their tools are ****. You're destroying America. That tool looks unused. You are a lying ****-head."

While I totally agree, my contention is that, at one point in the recent past, I got the distinct impression that no more criticism of HF was allowed at GJ...

I for one have been careful NOT to criticize HF tools since that time, because I don't want to get booted from the board. BUT, what does that say about diversity of opinion being welcome here?

I agree, uniformly pleasant cheerleading would be so dull and non-educational as to not be worth the time to read the forum.

 

[Bolster]

Thanks for the clarification. That actually makes me feel much better, and more free to express my opinion.

And my honest opinion is that Americans are doing themselves no favors with an addiction to low-quality offshore products. (Sometimes that criticism refers to me, too.) I hope I can be welcome at GJ with such an opinion.

 

[Bull]

Thanks for the clarification. That actually makes me feel much better, and more free to express my opinion.

Of course!

You know, YOU are partially responsible for HF getting a firm foothold here, thanks to your excellent "Rate HF Tools" thread. People love that one, and it's full of first-hand experience, not dogmatic ejaculations based on some overarching prejudicial philosophy.

 

[z28snksknr]

Actually, I didn't link anyone to anything! I didn't mention HF or any other brand. I am stating that, in general, a multiplicity of viewpoints is essential.

The idea that one group of people is leaving because they are frustrated with "idiots" joining is rather insulting to new members and also just a lame move. "Uh-oh, newbies are coming in with different ideas. I gotta bounce."

Maybe you could clarify what "adds value" to a discussion and what doesn't.

I was just having fun with you there Bull, no ill wil meant (hence the LOL)

I agree that diverse viewpoints are essential on a discussion board. I was just making an observation that if the amount of people that contribute useful and on-topic information (usually the established members) are diluted with people that do not, that will be depressing.

I just got done reading through the "Tight Wheel on Hub" thread and see a fair amount of off-topic "drama banter", mostly from people with <100 posts, debating who is using proper english and who is calling who a smartass. I wouldn't have to try hard to demonstrate a correlation betweeen post counts and valuable (or at least relevant) commentary.

BTW, I clearly see the irony of having this off-topic discussion complaining about off-topic discussions. Didn't plan on taking it there. Jsut want to make sure my half *** attempt at agreeing with a post isn't taken in an offensive way. I hope I've cleared that up.

 

[Bull]

I don't take things personally unless someone makes it personal so you were fine. I figured we were just having a normal discussion

I had no idea about any drama going on in the thread you mentioned. I'll put on my cape and go check it out. Probably be told I am a "dictator" if I clean it up, but let me see what's in there.

I was just having fun with you there Bull, no ill wil meant (hence the LOL)

I agree that diverse viewpoints are essential on a discussion board. I was just making an observation that if the amount of people that contribute useful and on-topic information (usually the established members) are diluted with people that do not, that will be depressing.

I just got done reading through the "Tight Wheel on Hub" thread and see a fair amount of off-topic "drama banter", mostly from people with <100 posts, debating who is using proper english and who is calling who a smartass. I wouldn't have to try hard to demonstrate a correlation betweeen post counts and valuable (or at least relevant) commentary.

BTW, I clearly see the irony of having this off-topic discussion complaining about off-topic discussions. Didn't plan on taking it there. Jsut want to make sure my half *** attempt at agreeing with a post isn't taken in an offensive way. I hope I've cleared that up.

 

[Bolster]

You know, YOU are partially responsible for HF getting a firm foothold here, thanks to your excellent "Rate HF Tools" thread. People love that one, and it's full of first-hand experience, not dogmatic ejaculations based on some overarching prejudicial philosophy.

Very true. My feelings toward that thread are ambivalent, at best.

As I've opined elsewhere, I was shocked at the number of positive ratings the tools received in that thread (and which does not mirror my experience with HF tools, many/most of which have been disappointing, even though I try to triage the higher quality items while still in the store). I had expected that thread would help us find the one good tool out of two dozen; whereas the thread has turned into more recommendations than criticisms.

I was blind-sided by that. That's the American consumer saying, "Good enough for me."

 

[Kurt4440]

Of course!

You know, YOU are partially responsible for HF getting a firm foothold here, thanks to your excellent "Rate HF Tools" thread. People love that one, and it's full of first-hand experience, not dogmatic ejaculations based on some overarching prejudicial philosophy.

You have to be very careful when using "first-hand... dogmatic ejaculations" in the same sentence, but you seemed to have pulled it off.
All kidding aside, I do agree that the posts containg first hand reviews and solutions to problems are the most valuable.

 

[Bull]

As I've opined elsewhere, I was shocked at the number of positive ratings the tools received in that thread (and which does not mirror my experience with HF tools, many/most of which have been disappointing, even though I try to triage the higher quality items while still in the store). I had expected that thread would help us find the one good tool out of two dozen; whereas the thread has turned into more recommendations than criticisms.

I was blind-sided by that. That's the American consumer saying, "Good enough for me."

Maybe. Who knows? I don't have a lot of their stuff. Maybe five tools. Of those, one was a dismal failure because it broke quickly, but others have been terrific. Seriously, terrific. Like the flooring nailer/stapler that I have used in my house and that saved me a TON of dough without even one misfire or jam!

You have to be very careful when using "first-hand... dogmatic ejaculations" in the same sentence, but you seemed to have pulled it off.
All kidding aside, I do agree that the posts containg first hand reviews and solutions to problems are the most valuable.

Haha, good one!

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

I know which post of Ryan's you are referring to.

His point was that he does not want all the "HF vs. SO" cage matches, with each side throwing increasingly larger and more gooey piles of poo at the other.

Sharing your honest, first-hand opinion of ANY tool or brand is what we want. What we DON'T want is when someone starts an SO thread, and someone comes in and says "My HF blabiddy-blah will do that better for 1/4 the cost. SO is for rich showoffs." Conversely, when someone shares a positive HF tool story, we don't want people coming in and saying "All their tools are ****. You're destroying America. That tool looks unused. You are a lying ****-head."

Like Bolster, I'm glad this was clarified. It seemed to a lot of us that ANYTHING said about HF that was not the utmost praise was getting deleted and pretty much anything derogatory could be said about Matco, Mac or Snap-on without a problem. I have more than a few HF items but the bulk of my tools are truck brands because I like the fit, finish, performance and the fact that they are American made.

I have worked hard my entire life and my tools and guns are some of the things I splurge on. I don't need to justify why they were purchased other than the fact that I wanted them, enjoy owning (and using) them and take pride in how (and where) they are made. Compared to my shotguns, Snap-on tools are a bargain.

They all have their place however. In a rainy, wet, miserable duck blind where my gun will more than likely be rusted before the day is over, I have an old trusted 870 pump that looks like it has been dragged behind a truck. I don't mind getting that one lost, run over, bent or dropped over the side of the boat.

On a ***** field or bird hunting however, the Kreighoff or Berettas come out to play and I enjoy the looks, feel and "shootability" that those firearms offer because of the custom stocks and well-tuned actions. They will last a lifetime or two before needing to be rebuilt (my K32 has over 300,000 rounds on it right now). They shoot where I look, lock up like a bank vault and I will be happy to pass them down to my grandkids.

That old 870 however needs to be re-built every 3 or 4 thousand rounds and will never be considered "heirloom" quality. All of them get the job done, they go bang when you pull the trigger and they bust the targets they are shot at however one is a “tool” that I use and the other is a “tool” that is used with pride.

The same thing goes with the tools in the garage. Some are used on the road, in junkyards or loaned out to idiots (using a ratchet as a hammer….). Those are not the better tools that I own and the HF, Great Neck and others like them serve a useful purpose in those roles. When I am working in the garage however, I like using the nicer tools that I own. Those would include SK, Snap-on, Matco, Mac (older ones), Fluke and several others including some German brands. I enjoy the feel, fit and finish of those tools and do not need to justify their purchase or use to anyone.

Each person on this board has a personal reason for buying the tools that they do. Budget constraints, age, demographics, locations and even something as mundane as marital status all enter in to our tool purchases. I don’t like being derided about being “foolish” with my money or “wasting” money that could be saved for retirement. I have those bases covered just fine thank you and what I spend on my hobbies is my discretionary income.

As long as the discussions are kept fair and impartial, no one here should have a problem. I might even pull a Bolster and hop back into some of the diatribe about tool brands.

 

[Bull]

Like Bolster, I'm glad this was clarified. It seemed to a lot of us that ANYTHING said about HF that was not the utmost praise was getting deleted and pretty much anything derogatory could be said about Matco, Mac or Snap-on without a problem.

As long as the discussions are kept fair and impartial, no one here should have a problem. I might even pull a Bolster and hop back into some of the diatribe about tool brands.

No one on here deletes posts because they criticize a tool. Now, if someone is crapping on another person's thread, making it personal, slinging poo then yeah, that stuff wont live.

To restate: honest evaluations, praise, and criticism of tools that you have direct experience with are welcomed! Telling someone that their choice in tools *****, or they are being dishonest in their evaluation, or that they are an enemy of their country, or that all tools made by Brand X ****, that stuff is not welcomed.

 

[Hiball]

To restate: honest evaluations, praise, and criticism of tools that you have direct experience with are welcomed! Telling someone that their choice in tools *****, or they are being dishonest in their evaluation, or that they are an enemy of their country, or that all tools made by Brand X ****, that stuff is not welcomed.

Yep.. there was/still is alot of confusion concerning discussing HF tools or any tool brand as far as that goes. There is nothing that says you cant have a friendly discussion concerning a brand of tools, But if your intention is to belittle the Member or clog up his thread Over and over with the "Same" type of "Im better than you and so are my tools" 5 year old behavior it not acceptable. Its not hard to tell whats kosher and what isnt, I honestly enjoy reading threads where Tool tests are done, Updates and reviews over a certain brand are communicated with the board etc...etc...

 

[Bull]

I honestly enjoy reading threads where Tool tests are done, Updates and reviews over a certain brand are communicated with the board etc...etc...

Seriously! mrholsehot and David from Florida have been bringing us some great content in this area recently. Stuff you just wont find anywhere else.

 

[mrholeshot]

BTW, I don't care how many pro-HF threads there are - I've broken too much from that place to change my mind about it.

I'm not Pro Harbor freight nor am I Anti-Harbor freight. There are good deals in HF if you are willing to take a slight risk. The US General 41 ich boxes are the best bang for the buck on the market today (My opinion only) as well as their 700 lb 5 drawer cart. There are a few other things i really like. When I go into HF I look at it more like a Treasure hunt. I hate to admit it but its fun to shop there. I can leave out of there with a basket full of stuff fo less than it would take me to go out with the boys to watch football at a sports bar. At least I have something to show for it. If you take a friend it's a blast. You just can't take a lot of the stuff seriously. Ive walked off a Snap-On truck so many times with 500 dollars worth of stuff in one hand and the recipt in the other that it's refreshing to take a 100 dollars and have to make three trips to get all that stuff in the car, lol

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Just in case anyone is wondering about me and HF, I will be buying 2 sets of metric wrenches @ $7.00 ea. and a couple of 4 1/2 grinders there tonight. The wrench sets are great to throw in the back of the girls cars when they go off to school (along with a cheap Wally World all in on tool kit) and the grinders I will try just to keep them in the shed with the lawnmower. If they disappear some night, no big deal. The grinder might cost less than $10.00 but I will not use their grinding wheels. Anything spinning at that rpm that can fly apart, I don't trust when it's stamped "hencho in china".

What is funny is that the grinding wheels and flappers will cost me more than the grinders.... I am also curious to see how they hold up compared to the Metabo, Dewalt and Makita that I have now.

 

[mrholeshot]

Those HF grinders pretty well until you let the smoke out

 

[cowboy73]

Where I work, the public relations/media department has people that search the internet for references to the company. They then post links to a lot of the stuff and publish it daily in the emailed newsletter. So I would say somebody at the corporate HQ of Harbor Freight searches around on the internet to find stuff and reports it to some higher ups.

 

[Bolster]

I might even pull a Bolster and hop back into some of the diatribe about tool brands.

Just for clarification, what's "pulling a Bolster," again? I like the phrase, but want to use it correctly. Is it being on both sides of the same issue? Or just being a windy *******?

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Those HF grinders pretty well until you let the smoke out

That's OK. I used to own a bunch of British cars and still have my Lucas smoke replacement kit. For those of you who do not own one, they are described in this article and come in very handy once the smoke escapes from your electrical equipment:

Lucas smoke kit

Just for clarification, what's "pulling a Bolster," again? I like the phrase, but want to use it correctly. Is it being on both sides of the same issue? Or just being a windy *******?

LOL Actually, both seem to fit........

 

[JohnFreeman]

"There is also a lot of pride being debt free and saving for your retirement at 55."

An excellent point and I fully agree. I'll be both at 62 with a paid off house and zero debt. Not quite 55, but close (plus I want to make sure I get SOMETHING out of the social security that was extorted from me) .

It is possible to support your country and fellow workers, and not spend yourself into the poor house. The two are not mutually exclusive.

John

PS: All cars here are US made also.