Is it just me?

[Hammell]

I wouldnt sell off any of my USA tools from a company that went overseas, ( ie Husky, I was very fond of their line). It makes no sense unless you like to burn money, but I sure wouldnt buy from them again. Find someone else. I did, and now purchase a lot of Wright tools for this very reason. That said, I dont know if Jet tools are sold in the states but they are an exception, very well made overseas tools, good steel, good products, good price.

 

[jetmech09]

If the quality control stays the same, where it is made will not effect performance.

 

[3xpendable]

Also let me know how well the money spent on that good ole USA made comupter you typed that on is doing.

Assembled in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA by me with global parts

That work for you hoss

 

[3xpendable]

First off, some of you are comparing apples to oranges. There are some things that just aren't made here. Who's making computers in the states? It one thing to buy something when there is no American option, it's another to say piss on the the American option when there is one. I attended a community college program to obtain the certifications I needed to operate freight trains. The curriculum was less about the global economy and more about not getting my f#%king legs cut off but I'm not to ignorant to understand that when these skilled machinist and tool makers lose their jobs on the line to some Chinaman working for pennies they aren't going to work for Microsoft! They're going to the unemployment office to sign up for their check and when that runs out they'll find something making a fraction of their Union negotiated manufacturing job paid. You're absolutely right Professor, we don't make much in this country anymore, how's that working out us? You looked at the unemployment rating lately? I'm not willing to give up on those Americans who still support their children making quality tools and praying they get one more good year before their job goes to China. If paying a little more to support those people makes me ignorant than I guess I can't deny it. Pennies before people is a lot of what got this country in the shape it's in.

 

[franzdom]

I notice Land's End is now offering USA T-shirts, expensive but they are really nice, and they seem to be selling. I bought four of them and love them! It's ironic that it's the same company that owns Craftsman

 

[bcradio]

I have a good job manufacturing orthopedic implants. So far mostly this type of medical manufacting has remained in the USA. Yes their is some foreign conversion starting to happen.
My theory is after the USA has been beat down to 3 world wages in manufacturing we will see all our good old jobs come back. So far know one really wants a implant with a china stamp on it. But when everyone starts thinking china (like the Toyota bandwagon) is cool again I'm screwed. The answer seems to be go to college for more education? Maybe we can all be CEOs?

Not "cool", but reliable rather. A corvette is much cooler.

 

[jmm]

I know it's oversimplification, but isn't capitalism all about bringing goods to the consumer at the lowest price possible? Isn't that what's happening?

...playing devil's advocate there. I don't like it, but I think that's how capitalism works. I work in manufacturing, textiles of all things, and see both sides of the coin painfully clear.

 

[Dieselbutterfly]

You know where they were made before the stamp was back on. What ever theory you might have for the removal they were still made in the USA. Now that it's back on does it make it a better ratchet? Smoother? stronger? Better warrenty? No its all the same and people were freaking out about. By placing 3 simple letters on the ratchet didn't make it functionally better.

Don't get me wrong my box is filled with channel lock, knipex, cdi, matco, and snap on but I don't wrench for a living and am not going to spend 300-500 on a tap and die set when a tiawan one will do and I use it 3 times a year.



I can see that point and it makes alot of sense. These companies don't do it by choice though. It's the general public that forces the move as the vast majority don't care as to where its made. They see they can buy set of 4 pliers for $15 or one pair of klien linemans for $45. As production costs so much here they have to reduce costs becasue units sold decline.

i did not say they functioned better.i said i would not give my opinion on why they removed it.my point was that the attitude of not caring is one of the reasons things are getting worse

 

[Dieselbutterfly]

I'm an economics major specializing in energy econ. Tell me how well you're going to be doing in a couple years with your good ole american oil. The fact of the matter is it's not economically reasible to produce everything here. American has past the industrial age and entered the information technology age. They specialize in information (medical advances, aerospace) while other parts of the world are converting from agriculture to industial. Many people now a days feel they are better than working at a factory, especailly for the wages needed to be profitable. They don't want to run a 12 ton press all day or stare at pliers going by looking for defects. My hat goes off to these individuals because I sure wouldn't want to do it. I buy american when I can but to spend 10x more for same quality items isn't realistic for me. It's ignorant individuals such as yourself that give the collective their arrogant reputation.

Also let me know how well the money spent on that good ole USA made comupter you typed that on is doing.

for sh*t sake i had not read this post yet.you cant fix stupid.you have no concept of how an economy works

 

[Dieselbutterfly]

i see i was wrong you know exactly how an economy works,thats why you advocate destroying ours.you say;'' how well YOUR going to be doing with YOUR good ole american oil.AMERICAN has past the industrial age.THEY specialize in information''.you are not even American.of course you advocate destroying our economy you dont even live here

 

[Conductor562]

Canadian and here I thought we were supposed to be friends

To think I was debating on ordering a GRAY ratchet

 

[Dieselbutterfly]

oh you mean they are still in the industrial age in canada.producing tools.why dont they outsource.maybe 96snma will be voted in office and he can work on his countries economy

 

[dandan111]

If I lived in Canada I would try to buy tools made there. Am I wrong? Anyway good debate guys!

 

[Conductor562]

If I lived in Canada I would try to buy tools made there. Am I wrong? Anyway good debate guys!

And who could blame you? There's no shame in having pride in your country and doing what you can to support it. But they wouldn't be as good as American tools, lol.

Are these canadian economics classes online by chance?

 

[Dieselbutterfly]

I know it's oversimplification, but isn't capitalism all about bringing goods to the consumer at the lowest price possible? Isn't that what's happening?

...playing devil's advocate there. I don't like it, but I think that's how capitalism works. I work in manufacturing, textiles of all things, and see both sides of the coin painfully clear.

what good does it do to bring goods at the lowest possible price when no one has a job to buy things at any price

 

[Conductor562]

The basic idea of capitalism is earning your keep and keeping what you earn. This is opposed to a socialist system where wealth is distributed among the population or a communist system where the government takes it all and gives you back whatever the hell it feels like. Capitalism is making the most you can, that doesn't mean that as a consumer it's our job to by the cheapest **** you can find.

 

[fsdogwood]

Wasn't even close to being alive then, but I've seen some of Japan's.. interesting older work as far as tools. They have a few companies with a good history of quality tools but in general I wouldn't trust 99% of their stuff from way back when. Now? Absolutely. Night and day difference.

So the criteria is quality? not the country?

 

[96snma]

for sh*t sake i had not read this post yet.you cant fix stupid.you have no concept of how an economy works

Please explain what the subprime financial crisis was. What cdo's have to do with it as they played a major role and what roles the money multiplier, monetary base and reserve ratio play in it.

If I lived in Canada I would try to buy tools made there. Am I wrong? Anyway good debate guys!

I do. I own a lot of gray tools and buy them when I can at small bolt supply businesses owned locally.

So the criteria is quality? not the country?

That's what I'm trying to say. Quality is quality. There are a lot of great tools made here and there are junk ones too. Same holds true for outside of north america. If I can get good quality for a reasonable price that's my choice. When I went to buy my pin punch set recently they had a USA made one for 30. Am I going to buy that over the 25 dollar Taiwan one right next to it. Of course. Am I going to buy the 159 dollar one over the Taiwan one. No.

 

[Dieselbutterfly]

well im not sure how that has anything to do with your post concerning production in the United States,however the problem with sub prime in a nutshell is lenders with no scruples loaning money to people who cant pay it back,on properties that dont have enough value.however there are other factors.none of which has anything to do with outsourcing production.

 

[Trucky]

So the criteria is quality? not the country?

Country AND quality when I can get it along with a decent price. USA->Germany/Japan/Canada/Switzerland, etc->China is my usual route. Now if there's a US and a similarity priced Taiwan version that's just a better tool, I'm going to buy that one every time. Most of my tools are US made due to availability and "good" quality but maybe not best for the price. Now when I want the best available the country doesn't matter all that much. Did I need to buy a Noga mag base for 100+ when I could have gotten one at horror freight for 10? Heck no but those are the best bases in my opinion and I need it to last me a few decades. I've also had much better luck with warranty service for US tool companies as well.

 

[zmotorsports]

My dad was a tool guy. Before the years got the best of him he prided himself on his tools and I suppose that trait was passed down to me. He taught me from the very start that if you bought quality stuff you'd only have to buy it once and buying quality meant buying American. When shopping for a tool the first question has always been "where is it made?" Other than very few exceptions I've always held to that philosophy and the vast majority of imports I have were Christmas gifts or something. Even as a young man making barely over minimum wage I saved for an extra payday and shelled out top dollar on brands like Proto, Klein, Channellock, etc. and I don't regret 1 single dollar of it. However, when I see an American company known for quality "think Klein" putting out a bunch of import stuff it pisses me off! Not only do I lose the desire to buy their products, I lose the desire to own them. I catch myself wanting to sell or trade them and reinvest the money into companies who have yet to sell out. Is this weird? Does anyone else do this?

No it isn't just you. I feel the exact same way but probably more in spite of my dad's tool set than because of it. My dad was a great mentor in the fact of getting the job done and feeling good about getting it done. However, he somewhat lacked in the overall fit/finish and final details of a project no matter how major or minor of a repair. My parents didn't have much money and they did the best they could raising seven kids. They bought quality used cars/trucks and farm equipment but he bought the cheapest tools he could find and used them for multiple tasks. Pipe wrenches also served as hammers, as did pliers or screwdriver handles, whatever was closest.

When I was in my early teens I worked on small engines, motorcycles and other odds and ends for neighbors and brothers/sisters as I followed in my father's footsteps as far as mechanical abilities, however, I hated to use his tools because of their condition and having to hunt for every single socket or wrench when I needed it.

As I approached high school and started wrenching more and more on my own stuff as well as buddies and other peoples for extra money I quickly learned the importance of having quality tools to earn money with.

I worked at a couple of auto parts stores throughout my high school years and would generally get some decent deals on some of the tools they carried and they were qualtiy American made tools.

As my collection of tools grew I always bought the best quality I could and had the thinking of buying a tool once and having it last a lifetime. I don't regret it one bit even though with the amount of money I have spend on high end tools, I could have bought cheaper ones and spent the money on other things. I am glad I made the decision I did every time I open a drawer and grab whatever tool I need.

Mike.

 

[T.E.D. Jordan]

I live and work in the UK in Engineering, and we're frequently contracted to America for works so I've gotten a good idea of what the scene is here and there.

We seem to have experienced the same as what the U.S. is experiencing now with industry. An interesting thread I found about someone requesting UK tools:

http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/topic.asp?t=321184

Seems to echoe minor similarities anway

Jordan

 

[larryq]

This is just my opinion and I know I'm probably not going to change anyones mind and get bashed for it. This is just the way the world is changing.

I ask does this desire to buy american made extend to other items besides tools. If not then why is it so important to a buy USA made plier buy not a TV.

Good points. We forget the competitive pressures these companies face. I'm sure the lure of bigger margins drives much of outsourcing, but so does the need to cut costs. If your competitors are gaining the edge then...

The problem is a lot of folks are looking for bargain wrenches/pliers/what have you and price is 90% of their decision. I think when it comes to tools that can be a mistake, since a well built one lasts far longer but some people don't think that way.

And, let's not ignore that a number of US companies hurt themselves too by not innovating. Think RCA and Zenith compared with Sony in the 1970s & 80s when it came to TVs and consumer electronics, and the big 3 automakers at the same time, when the oil shock made it imperative that gas mileage be taken into account. Datsun, Honda & Toyota moved into that vacuum and have done well ever since.

 

[Mickey O]

Also let me know how well the money spent on that good ole USA made comupter you typed that on is doing.

Not sure what a comupter is but I have a USA made computer, it has spell check, and I also know that it's now nearly impossible to find one thanks to people in this country showing a willingness to buy imported ****. You act as if it's the supporters of USA made products fault, as if they did something wrong, like you caught them in the act. It's the same old argument, where's your PC made, where were your sneakers made. If it were up to us, supporter of USA made products and their USA employees, we'd have TV's, computers and sneakers made in this country, it's the supporters of imported **** and their lack of support for the country they live in coupled with their cheapness that have stuck it to us again.

I ask does this desire to buy american made extend to other items besides tools. If not then why is it so important to a buy USA made plier buy not a TV. If you look around your house there is probably 95% that isn't made here. TV, fidge, couch, mattress, cell phone, shoes and cloths are all imported for the most part. so why not spend so much time seeking out american made items like those

The A in American should be capitalized.

First consideration for almost everything I purchase aside from things specific to certain countries, Italian wine, Greek olives, British Crunchie bars, etc.

The majority of my stuff is USA made.

You guys will figure it out eventually, but in the mean time I have to pay the price for a bunch of cheap asses.

 

[Dieselbutterfly]

here here^ but you must be wrong 96snma is a Canadian ,American economics expert

 

[woody 73]

Many years ago I started buying cars that were made in the USA, but the only problem was every car I ever bought broke down 24/7. Back then(late 60's early 70's) I kept seeing at first just a few then maybe more foreign cars, so then I began to question the owners with questions like:

Does your car hold up over time?
Can you get parts for it?
Gas mileage.
how much did it cost?
Does it break down often?
And each time the answers were simple, great mileage,never breaks down,cheap to buy,parts are getting somewhat easier to buy,rust problems yes but they keep going.

So I bought my first Toyota and that sucker lasted for 180,000 miles before it imploded and the rust just destroyed it. It never gave me any problems and I have never looked back. So I like tools and products from all over the world that will last and not fall apart at the drop of a hat.

If my Ford and GM and American motors cars would have been like my first Foreign car I would still be driving american made cars so I ask did we as consumers kill the American made dream or did the manufactures fail us?

I don't know the answers but I know what works for me day in and day out.

 

[IndyGarage]

I know that I'm in the minority - if not here at GJ, at least on this thread, but I could care less where my tools are made.

There is not a single shred of pride from me on what I build because of where my tools came from, and I won't pay a dime more to a guy because he uses American Made tools over any other tools. As long as he has proper tools to do the job, then that's all I care about.

I will pay more for a guy that does better work than another guy - and if that's because he has better tools or is smarter or is able to save money by buying cheaper tools and then spend more time on the job, then that's great.

And I believe 90% of Americans feel the way I do.

I didn't always think this way. I used to feel the same way as the OP - perhaps I was indoctrinated into thinking this way because of my time with the UAW.

Either way, I've since changed my mind.

I've had a chance in my career to work at more companies in more countries than most people do and I feel you should buy the best thing, but cheapest thing for your job at hand. Some days that is German tools. Some days that is good old USA tools. And some days that is Harbor Freight. All based on my budget, the design of the tool, and the added utility for higher cost.

I don't think protectionism will save jobs in the US. I believe innovation will. Innovation in design, innovation in, production, innovation in shipping distribution and service.

 

[NC-Fordguy]

I know that I'm in the minority - if not here at GJ, at least on this thread, but I could care less where my tools are made.

There is not a single shred of pride from me on what I build because of where my tools came from, and I won't pay a dime more to a guy because he uses American Made tools over any other tools. As long as he has proper tools to do the job, then that's all I care about.

I will pay more for a guy that does better work than another guy - and if that's because he has better tools or is smarter or is able to save money by buying cheaper tools and then spend more time on the job, then that's great.

And I believe 90% of Americans feel the way I do.

I didn't always think this way. I used to feel the same way as the OP - perhaps I was indoctrinated into thinking this way because of my time with the UAW.

Either way, I've since changed my mind.

I've had a chance in my career to work at more companies in more countries than most people do and I feel you should buy the best thing, but cheapest thing for your job at hand. Some days that is German tools. Some days that is good old USA tools. And some days that is Harbor Freight. All based on my budget, the design of the tool, and the added utility for higher cost.

I don't think protectionism will save jobs in the US. I believe innovation will. Innovation in design, innovation in, production, innovation in shipping distribution and service.

Agree with wise man from Indy

 

[Dieselbutterfly]

unfortunately when the companies that read this thread see wise indies post it may help them to decide to ship more production overseas

 

[bcradio]

what good does it do to bring goods at the lowest possible price when no one has a job to buy things at any price

You're right... Manufacturing jobs are the only ones out there

 

[dandan111]

Indy are you talking about your tools or somebody that works for you? Are you american?

 

[IndyGarage]

unfortunately when the companies that read this thread see wise indies post it may help them to decide to ship more production overseas

I guess if the thread was put here as a political statement to influence companies you might be right.

But I'd hope they would read my response and say - hmm - how can I drive more value into the products I make so that the people who use my tools can earn more money than the people who don't.

 

[IndyGarage]

Indy are you talking about your tools or somebody that works for you? Are you american?

I guess I'm talking about anybody. Not sure why the question.

Let me relay a story. Many years ago, I was working in a factory and we had this high precision part that we were struggling to make. The company (very large American company) wanted to buy a new $500,000 machine to make the parts.

We had a vendor who supplied a lot of similar parts, and we knew they made them cheaper than we could and with better quality. So I went to visit them to see how they did it.

I was astounded. They were doing the parts on a machine that was considerably smaller and less "good" than the current one we had, and certainly not in the same league as the $500,000 machine our guys wanted to buy. In fact, they had built a 2x4 and plywood extension to the machine in order to handle multiple parts at once. They were using very strict Statistical Process Control to manage the quality, and they didn't even inspect the parts before they shipped them. This was totally contrary to everything I had been taught.

It also meant we would never, ever compete with them. They had out-innovated us totally. I went back and reported what I saw - and what did the company do? They sent a QC audit to the company requiring them to do a final inspection on the parts - in order to make sure they weren't charging us for something they didn't do....

Our answer to everything was to throw money at it - their answer was to throw their brains at it - guess who won?

 

[IngyHere]

I know that I'm in the minority - if not here at GJ, at least on this thread, but I could care less where my tools are made.

There is not a single shred of pride from me on what I build because of where my tools came from, and I won't pay a dime more to a guy because he uses American Made tools over any other tools. As long as he has proper tools to do the job, then that's all I care about.

I will pay more for a guy that does better work than another guy - and if that's because he has better tools or is smarter or is able to save money by buying cheaper tools and then spend more time on the job, then that's great.

And I believe 90% of Americans feel the way I do.

I didn't always think this way. I used to feel the same way as the OP - perhaps I was indoctrinated into thinking this way because of my time with the UAW.

Either way, I've since changed my mind.

... .

Then, what about safety?

You got the efficiency ("better work") right. I'm tired of stripping heads off nuts or shearing the Philips head off a machine screw due to a poor fitting tool. This wastes a lot of time. Unless, of course, I don't give a sh*t about what I'm working on and put half stripped screws, bolts and nuts back into the project. So, good tools save time and mean a person who cares about the quality of their work product.

In terms of safety, please don't kid me and pretend all your Chinese and India tools are measured to tolerance. Or, that they are made of similarly strong materials in a controlled environment. Metal can be ductile, brittle, malleable, uneven, a number of different problems. I've used almost every make of cheap import tools in the book, and because of the above properties, they have broken, deformed or ruined projects. I've damn near broke my hand, slammed myself into the ground and hurt every part of my body with cheap tools. I've seen every mode of failure, and I am done with that!

I'll give you Germany and Japan. I own German and Japanese tools. Personally I like advanced manufacturing economies where people get paid living wages and where the people actually *want* to work and *want* to make quakity goods. I don't like places where privileged classes take out their angst on the poorest and least capable members of society because they are members of organizations such as the Chinese Communist Party.

People cite Capitalism here. That's similarly bullsh*t. China's subsidizing of its ploy to engineer its economy means sometimes goods are made there because they come back cheaper than the raw materials to make them. Read that again. An engineering manager at TRW Automotive told me about that one. It's not how most people look at Capitalism. It's more like Mercantilism where a foreign country is waging long-term economic war on another.

 

[IndyGarage]

Then, what about safety?

You got the efficiency ("better work") right. I'm tired of stripping heads off nuts or shearing the Philips head off a machine screw due to a poor fitting tool. This wastes a lot of time. Unless, of course, I don't give a sh*t about what I'm working on and put half stripped screws, bolts and nuts back into the project. So, good tools save time and mean a person who cares about the quality of their work product.

In terms of safety, please don't kid me and pretend all your Chinese and India tools are measured to tolerance. Or, that they are made of similarly strong materials in a controlled environment. Metal can be ductile, brittle, malleable, uneven, a number of different problems. I've used almost every make of cheap import tools in the book, and because of the above properties, they have broken, deformed or ruined projects. I've damn near broke my hand, slammed myself into the ground and hurt every part of my body with cheap tools. I've seen every mode of failure, and I am done with that!

I'll give you Germany and Japan. I own German and Japanese tools. Personally I like advanced manufacturing economies where people get paid living wages and where the people actually *want* to work and *want* to make quakity goods. I don't like places where privileged classes take out their angst on the poorest and least capable members of society because they are members of organizations such as the Chinese Communist Party.

People cite Capitalism here. That's similarly bullsh*t. China's subsidizing of its ploy to engineer its economy means sometimes goods are made there because they come back cheaper than the raw materials to make them. Read that again. An engineering manager at TRW Automotive told me about that one. It's not how most people look at Capitalism. It's more like Mercantilism where a foreign country is waging long-term economic war on another.

Did you read my response? or just focus on "I don't care where the tools come from".

I've busted my knuckles using the cheap stuff and the best and it hurts bad either way.

However if a tool doesn't have enough quality to be safe or you bust your knuckles and can't work, then it's not a good enough tool for the job - no matter where i is made. You shouldn't buy it.

But here's the conundrum - if you don't use it, or refuse to buy it, you do not know. Making the assumption that just because a tool is made one place vs. another it is safe or isn't is no longer a valid argument - it may have been more valid years ago, but it's not any longer.

There are people that can heat treat properly in America and there aren't. There are people who can heat treat properly in China and there aren't.

I recall when Alan Mulally was hired as CEO of Ford, he was driving a Lexus and folks went nuts. I'm going to tell you there is no smarter man running a business in the US than Alan and there is nobody better than him for Ford Motor Company. He basically said - I've tried all of them and this car is the best for me - if you Ford engineers haven't owned the competitors cars - how can you know if they are better or not?

Last time I was in Dearborn there seemed to be some competitor cars in the executive spots.

 

[NC-Fordguy]

Then, what about safety?

In terms of safety, please don't kid me and pretend all your Chinese and India tools are measured to tolerance. Or, that they are made of similarly strong materials in a controlled environment. Metal can be ductile, brittle, malleable, uneven, a number of different problems. I've used almost every make of cheap import tools in the book, and because of the above properties, they have broken, deformed or ruined projects. I've damn near broke my hand, slammed myself into the ground and hurt every part of my body with cheap tools. I've seen every mode of failure, and I am done with that!

Sounds more like you suffer from a coordination issue rather than a use of tool issue.

I've broken tools ( in some cases USA made tools) and other than skining knuckles I've never experienced the trauma you have. Then again I've studied martial arts ( oh no--an asian discipline) for over 40 years, hell even taught it for a few years.

I suggest that perhaps you take some classes and at least learn some self control. A good instructor should be able to figure out if there is any salvation for you concerning self control and coordination. Based upon your self description you may be past any sort of redemption. There is a point where genetics comes into play. Either way another option is to consider a career change.

 

[bcradio]

Sounds more like you suffer from a coordination issue rather than a use of tool issue.

I've broken tools ( in some cases USA made tools) and other than skining knuckles I've never experienced the trauma you have. Then again I've studied martial arts ( oh no--an asian discipline) for over 40 years, hell even taught it for a few years.

I suggest that perhaps you take some classes and at least learn some self control. A good instructor should be able to figure out if there is any salvation for you concerning self control and coordination. Based upon your self description you may be past any sort of redemption. There is a point where genetics comes into play. Either way another option is to consider a career change.

wned2:

 

[jmm]

what good does it do to bring goods at the lowest possible price when no one has a job to buy things at any price

Don't Americans flock to Wal-Mart in droves? Someone's got a job.

 

[jmm]

The basic idea of capitalism is earning your keep and keeping what you earn. This is opposed to a socialist system where wealth is distributed among the population or a communist system where the government takes it all and gives you back whatever the hell it feels like. Capitalism is making the most you can, that doesn't mean that as a consumer it's our job to by the cheapest **** you can find.

In order to keep what you earn, one might reasonably assume then, that when you have to part with your money, you spend as little as possible. Place an American made good beside a Chinese good. Which is cheapest? The cheapest [often Chinese] goods getting bought up en masse satisfies your definition.

If we were to regulate the free market to protect American made goods, that'd be a step toward socialism. And I'm all for it.

 

[hifi_hokie]

If the quality control stays the same, where it is made will not effect performance.

That's the point Freidman made; however, getting a global supply chain to actually do it in practice has been like trying to find an honest politician.