Is this building OBVIOUSLY bad?

[Rusted Nut]

It's not the entire contract. But there's only one more page, but it only has things like the number of windows and doors. Nothing else. Everything else that we communicated was through email with me giving descriptions of the building I wanted. I have absolutely nothing in writing showing what was supposed to be built.

ok, well those email communications are going to be very important. I agree with redhead’s post. I don’t know know Alabama state contracting laws, but most states require contractors to have a bond. You can file a claim against this bond, and maybe recover the cost of insulation etc.. I would still try to meet with the builder and discuss this debacle, maybe they will demo everything and leave the slab so you can start over.

If you go with an attorney, go with one who specializes in construction law. And don’t let an attorney just take the case, they cost you a bundle. Consult with them, and get a plan of action first.

 

[wagoncrazy]

I feel your pain. Its' tough to stomach that your best of intentions have gone sideways here.
For me, lawyers and their cost may not be the way to go here.
Might be good to spend a few bucks and get a couple of qualified metal building structural engineers to come out and (for pay) give you a full inspection and writeup on their proposed solutions to fix what is already there. Then you have a roadmap and a proposed cost for the fix.

If that roof is already sagging, it's not gonna be a good outcome over time to leave it that way.
Needs to be dealt with soon. Just bite the bullet and get a game plan together with a qualified engineer (or 2).

Sorry about the hassle this is all causing you.

 

[mikedodge]

And to add on, the plans I posted were wet stamped by an engineer on the bottom right. All 5 or so pages had the same stamp. I only uploaded the final page because it was the only page that had the complete house. I'll upload the rest here.

In a lot of places that's normal. It's all done digitally and PDF'd. If you are worried the drawings aren't legit contact the engineering company.

 

[930dreamer]

Is the building paid for?

 

[Zeke]

I'm impressed by the knowledge presented here and the genuine concern for the OP. One thing lacking is the understanding of Alabama law. I don't live in AL but I did live and work there for one year doing residential both in small and large cities, and in rural areas. I can tell you the current NEC is adopted at municipal and county level and some counties may have adopted it but they don't inspect outside of municipal. Alabama as a whole is on the 2020 but it is not mandated for each county. Some are still on the 2014 NEC. So you see where I'm going.

But I'm comparing the NEC to something that has nothing to do with the NEC. I'm only surmising that other codes are treated much the same. I can tell you that Dekalb County in AL is very rural. I've also never been there so Google maps is my source. There are no major cities in Dekalb County and I can't even find out where the county seat is, or capitol. It keeps telling me Decatur which is a few counties over.

I'm just musing here because this is an interesting and informative thread. But from a legal standpoint, this ain't Mobile or Birmingham (both 2014 NEC, as of 4/22, believe it or not). Before I spent too much money on the services of an attorney, I'd want to know a little be more about any jurisdiction, if any, that will come into play.

It's very interesting that here in CA contractor license laws almost set the standard. I know we have reciprocal agreements with AZ and NV. You pass the CA test and you can apply for an AZ or NV license with little hassle. However. a CA license is not required to contract with or work on U.S. Federal property. CA and it's counties and cities have no jurisdiction on federal land.

Last I knew as a contractor. I retired my license 5 years ago.

So there are many places in the U.S. where there just isn't any code being enforced or it's entirely local. Need to know this.

 

[Rusted Nut]

OP - another point: the “installer” noted in the contract; did you pay that company directly, or did you pay your builder who paid the installer? If you did not pay directly and only paid the builder, then then the builder has responsibility for the installers work. Just a point to keep in mind.

 

[Zeke]

OP - another point: the “installer” noted in the contract; did you pay that company directly, or did you pay your builder who paid the installer? If you did not pay directly and only paid the builder, then then the builder has responsibility for the installers work. Just a point to keep in mind.

Good point, but you may be using incorrect terms. Manufacturer, builder or sub-contractor (installer) all need to be defined here. If I read it right earlier, the manufacturer has a subsidiary or another LLC owned by the same people. Anyway you slice it, each entity has to be determined and their part in the overall scheme.

Here, we have bonds, performance bonds, liability insurance and worker's comp. It's not easy to be a small fry in CA. There are, of course a lot of 'contractors' that don't have all the ducks in a row, if any. This can happen anywhere.

 

[Zeke]

I think the Brits call this a "sticky wicket."

 

[Old tool guy]

OP - another point: the “installer” noted in the contract; did you pay that company directly, or did you pay your builder who paid the installer? If you did not pay directly and only paid the builder, then then the builder has responsibility for the installers work. Just a point to keep in mind.

I tend to agree, because … company 1 forced you to use company 2 to erect the building, and both companies are part of the same holding company. It wasn’t your choice, or even your option, to use an erector of your choice.

 

[Rusted Nut]

Good point, but you may be using incorrect terms. Manufacturer, builder or sub-contractor (installer) all need to be defined here. If I read it right earlier, the manufacturer has a subsidiary or another LLC owned by the same people. Anyway you slice it, each entity has to be determined and their part in the overall scheme.

Here, we have bonds, performance bonds, liability insurance and worker's comp. It's not easy to be a small fry in CA. There are, of course a lot of 'contractors' that don't have all the ducks in a row, if any. This can happen anywhere.

Good point. The OP signed a contract with “blank contractor” and the building will erected by “third party installer”. Did the OP pay the “third party installer” or just pay the “blank contractor“.

 

[JohnC1957]

I was a licensed GC in CA for 15 years and have worked as a project manager on multi-family projects in CA and in TN. Pay the money for an engineering consult and get pricing based on the engineers recommendations/calculations/ drawings to either rectify or replace as directed.
Schedule a meeting as everyone else has mentioned with the owner of the contracting firm that built it. Give them the opportunity to rectify as that is generally required
If they don’t rectify retain an attorney and review your options. Quit talking to the employees as they have no skin in the game

 

[tool_scrounge]

Have you found a structural engineer to evaluate the current build? That may be possible but usually given the choice they will want to work on bigger and more profitable projects.

But I suspect it will be a lot harder for you to find a licensed structure engineer who will design and sign off on a fix for the existing building. Too small of a job with too much liability.

Semi related - I have a good friend who build a dream shop 30 years ago. He had some land but was never a rich person so he built it himself without permits. Recently the county found out and told him he needed a structural engineer to sign off on it. No one would sign off on it or discuss what additional structural work would be needed to get a sign off. Too small of a job and too much liability. He is about to tear the whole thing out.

 

[liliysdad]

They are making him address a building that has been up for 30 years?

That’s absurd

 

[PugetDude]

I think the Brits call this a "sticky wicket."

Or " the dogs breakfast"

 

[Boogerman]

They are making him address a building that has been up for 30 years?

That’s absurd

Code officials are rarely the nazi tyrant stupid pig feeding at the public trough that they are made out to be by those that have enforcement actions taken against them. If they're going after him for a structural evaluation after 30 years, there's a very good chance that it's because they see things in the construction that make it really undesirable to pass along to the next owner. Having been the expert witness/analyst called in on these types of things a number of times, almost universally the code official is reluctant to open the can of worms, but the construction they're red tagging really needs some remedial help.

 

[liliysdad]

Yet another anecdote that makes me happy I live an area without that nonsense.

 

[Zeke]

Where did the 30 years come in? I missed that.

 

[Youngandfree]

Where did the 30 years come in? I missed that.

Post above that one.

 

[Youngandfree]

Code officials are rarely the nazi tyrant stupid pig feeding at the public trough that they are made out to be by those that have enforcement actions taken against them. If they're going after him for a structural evaluation after 30 years, there's a very good chance that it's because they see things in the construction that make it really undesirable to pass along to the next owner. Having been the expert witness/analyst called in on these types of things a number of times, almost universally the code official is reluctant to open the can of worms, but the construction they're red tagging really needs some remedial help.

Why were they there in the first place? I guess other poster could provide more details to run this train further off the tracks.

 

[Slimmons]

As an update, and as was predicted, I've reached out to 3 different structural engineers in my area. All of them have declined. None of them even entertained the idea. There's still a few more I'll call, but I'm starting to get the feeling that no one is going to want to touch this. What a nightmare.
I have found a few real estate lawyers with lots of experience in these kinds of issues, and of course they're all willing to talk to me about it. But I am hesitant to get a lawyer involved without sitting down with the owner first. As mentioned here, I want to go to the owner with a plan forward made by a structural engineer.....but if I can't find a structural engineer, I'm not sure what to do. I guess a lawyer who deals with this will know who could do it, but then I'm back to getting a lawyer first.

 

[Zeke]

Post above that one.

Where did he see 30 years? I didn't see 30 years in 4 pages.

 

[liliysdad]

Semi related - I have a good friend who build a dream shop 30 years ago. He had some land but was never a rich person so he built it himself without permits. Recently the county found out and told him he needed a structural engineer to sign off on it.

Where did he see 30 years? I didn't see 30 years in 4 pages.

 

[ybnormal]

Semi related - I have a good friend who build a dream shop 30 years ago. He had some land but was never a rich person so he built it himself without permits. Recently the county found out and told him he needed a structural engineer to sign off on it. No one would sign off on it or discuss what additional structural work would be needed to get a sign off. Too small of a job and too much liability. He is about to tear the whole thing out.

that wouldn't be grandfathered in due to age? or ignored because of statute of limitations? is there a time limit on this kind of stuff?

 

[billconner]

As an update, and as was predicted, I've reached out to 3 different structural engineers in my area. All of them have declined. None of them even entertained the idea. There's still a few more I'll call, but I'm starting to get the feeling that no one is going to want to touch this. What a nightmare.
I have found a few real estate lawyers with lots of experience in these kinds of issues, and of course they're all willing to talk to me about it. But I am hesitant to get a lawyer involved without sitting down with the owner first. As mentioned here, I want to go to the owner with a plan forward made by a structural engineer.....but if I can't find a structural engineer, I'm not sure what to do. I guess a lawyer who deals with this will know who could do it, but then I'm back to getting a lawyer first.

Yeah - almost impossible to find an engineer or architect for small residential work. Condolences. If there's a university in Alabama with a structural engineering program, try that, and play for sympathy. U of A Birmingham?

 

[bluedog225]

It’s really tough to find an engineer. I’d ask the engineers you speak to for recommendations.

 

[readhead]

If you would like I can run a couple of quotes based on what you have now that would show what the framing should look like if that would help. I can do it in tube steel or cold formed.
PM me and I will give you my contact information.
Regards, Andy

 

[kbuhagiar]

Where did he see 30 years? I didn't see 30 years in 4 pages.

Post 172, last paragraph.

 

[davejo]

It doesnt take an engineer to measure how much the roof is sagging. Is it already beyond industry standards?


Get the measurement and start your meeting with that issue. He might then have to justify his structure and explain the engineering choices he made for your building components and layout.

 

[PugetDude]

It doesnt take an engineer to measure how much the roof is sagging. Is it already beyond industry standards?


Get the measurement and start your meeting with that issue. He might then have to justify his structure and explain the engineering choices he made for your building components and layout.

And ask for a detailed explanation as to why the building you received doesn't even remotely resemble the plans.

 

[manwithtools]

Where did he see 30 years? I didn't see 30 years in 4 pages.

Zeke,
Just for clarity, the 30 years comment has nothing to do with the OP in this thread. It was a side comment from another poster that is not relevant to this thread.

 

[Hank11]

As an update, and as was predicted, I've reached out to 3 different structural engineers in my area. All of them have declined. None of them even entertained the idea. There's still a few more I'll call, but I'm starting to get the feeling that no one is going to want to touch this. What a nightmare.
I have found a few real estate lawyers with lots of experience in these kinds of issues, and of course they're all willing to talk to me about it. But I am hesitant to get a lawyer involved without sitting down with the owner first. As mentioned here, I want to go to the owner with a plan forward made by a structural engineer.....but if I can't find a structural engineer, I'm not sure what to do. I guess a lawyer who deals with this will know who could do it, but then I'm back to getting a lawyer first.

Call around to the “real” building supply businesses in your area. Look for the ones who sell to home builders, those who sell complete home packages. Someone will have the name of an engineer that does your kind of work. You also need an entire overview of the defective construction. (You have lots of defects.) This won’t be a home inspector, but rather an experienced licensed contractor. Get that person to visit and then write a report detailing all deficiencies. It might be the engineer doing this. Maybe not.

From what you’ve shown so far, talking to the builder is a waste of time. You need a lawyer to talk to him.

 

[jonesg]

As an update, and as was predicted, I've reached out to 3 different structural engineers in my area. All of them have declined. None of them even entertained the idea. There's still a few more I'll call, but I'm starting to get the feeling that no one is going to want to touch this. What a nightmare.
I have found a few real estate lawyers with lots of experience in these kinds of issues, and of course they're all willing to talk to me about it. But I am hesitant to get a lawyer involved without sitting down with the owner first. As mentioned here, I want to go to the owner with a plan forward made by a structural engineer.....but if I can't find a structural engineer, I'm not sure what to do. I guess a lawyer who deals with this will know who could do it, but then I'm back to getting a lawyer first.

You need to know what to ask the builder before sitting down with them, thats what the lawyer can help with.
Its always cheaper to negotiate than litigate, I never let a lawyer negotiate for me.
When the lawyer tells you to call anytime with questions and you feel nervous and want to call...don't .

I think the bottom line is you've been naive and you're going to have to pay something for that.
If you push too hard the builder will just dissolve and absolve himself. You'll get nothing but the legal bill.
So the whole idea of getting an engineer involved is just a waste.
Sometimes you just have to fall back and punt in life.

 

[gba2331]

The best part of "some other guy will install it" is that, it's not true. The same people who sold it to me, installed it. I think they just have the install company under another LLC in case they're sued. Hopefully that doesn't hold up in court, but who knows.

This strikes me as a red-flag, especially because it is on line 1.

Sorry to hear about your tale of woe but I appreciate you pos it as a warning for others in the future.

 

[LOW1]

Keep looking for an engineer. And consider contacting your insurance company. A typical policy would not cover bad workmanship. But it MAY (or may not) cover damage caused by bad workmanship. That can be a real fine line. In any event they may send out a claims rep or engineer to investigate. The info they give you may help you.

Again, good luck.

 

[Denwood]

I know that a lot has already been posted on structure, but the roof "trusses" don't look to be built even using basic understanding of load/tension/compression, much less on any kind of engineering spec. Aside from all of the other warnings regarding structure, spacing, etc., this is why your metal building consults have been so harsh with respect to safety warnings. Please be careful!

Compare your interior mezzanine floor trusses (assuming you installed these) to your ceiling support. Your mezzanine floor will support a lot more load then even a small section of the roof!

I feel for you in the situation as regardless of which way you go, a truly unfortunate amount of time, money and stress is inevitable as you move to resolution. I have been involved in several projects (wood, not steel) with in place restructuring of existing engineered trusses etc. and it is possible. That said, the starting place for the aforementioned projects was an engineered structure. With our snow loads, your building would have been on the ground a month ago. In your case, I can see why engineers may not want to touch the project as the starting point is essentially much more complicated than just building a new structure. They need to build to code, but also factor in supporting the existing structure, which will likely be more expensive overall than just starting new.

 

[Zeke]

Zeke,
Just for clarity, the 30 years comment has nothing to do with the OP in this thread. It was a side comment from another poster that is not relevant to this thread.

Well, that's what I thought. How do people derail like that? It's complicated enough as it is.
Post #173 didn't include a reference even though it directly followed the OT post above it. To me that means it defaults to referencing the OP.

OK, so I was an English major, I can't help it.

 

[liliysdad]

Well, that's what I thought. How do people derail like that? It's complicated enough as it is.
Post #173 didn't include a reference even though it directly followed the OT post above it. To me that means it defaults to referencing the OP.

OK, so I was an English major, I can't help it.

I apologize for the derailment, but common sense would dictate that the comment regarding "30 years" was in direct response to the post mentioning "30 years" directly prior and above.

Perhaps that was too complex, given the fact I was not an English major.

 

[PugetDude]

I understood it, but to be fair I did recently stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

 

[Zeke]

I apologize for the derailment, but common sense would dictate that the comment regarding "30 years" was in direct response to the post mentioning "30 years" directly prior and above.

Perhaps that was too complex, given the fact I was not an English major.

We're good. My mind derails too.

 

[Jeffh110@]

Anything new with this?