J H Williams vintage hand tools

[Jay__Dub]

The logo on one of my spuds. Research indicates maybe 1920s. Not sure.

 

[DetailSeeker]

(Psst. Inside tip. -- If you have to use a screwdriver for a punch, don't tell us. Blame it on your wife. That's how we roll here.)

That's right--show some respect: Vintage flathead screwdrivers is for openin' paint cans!

I didn't say I'd use a vintage one!

ETA: I ended up using a screw as a makeshift punch (how do I not have a punch?), and the partially broken bit broke all the way off. Still have half the thread on that side.

 

[d42jeep]

This is likely the smallest Superrench DOE I’ve run across. The rust came off easily with a little hand wire brush.
-Don
Before
After

 

[misterbill]

I bought myself a birthday present. This NOS/NIB Williams TB-8T appears in multiple catalogs including page 48 of 1970 Catalog 307 on ITCL. Looks like it was used for multiple sets. This box has a few dings and scratches but was obviously never used.







Bill

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Nice!

 

[d42jeep]

Found an S-50 1/2” drive push through ratchet today. It has a captive plug.
-Don

 

[d42jeep]

Here are a pair of curved Williams Superior DOE carbon steel wrenches. I normally don’t collect much Williams but the Japanning on these two was remarkable.
-Don

 

[Provincial]

Finds at the flea market Sunday morning.

Williams Superrench 1112 obs. DOE 3/16
Williams Superrench 1114 obs. DOE 13/64
Williams Superrench 1116 obs. DOE 1/4
Williams Superrench 1118 obs. DOE 9/32
Williams Superrench 1124 obs. DOE 3/8
Williams Superrench 1112 obs. DOE 3/16
Williams Superrench 1114 obs. DOE 13/64
Williams Superrench 1116 obs. DOE 1/4
Williams Superrench 1118 obs. DOE 9/32
Williams Superrench 1128 obs. DOE 7/16
Williams 501 Set Screw Wrench 1/4
Williams Superrench 1112 obs. DOE 3/16
Williams Superrench 1114 obs. DOE 13/64
Williams Superrench 1116 obs. DOE 1/4
Williams Superrench 1118 obs. DOE 9/32
Williams Superrench 1170 combo 1"

 

[Jim C.]

I started collecting these Williams obstruction wrenches several years ago. The set consists of 34 wrenches. I need eight more to complete the set.

Jim C.

 

[Jay__Dub]

I started collecting these Williams obstruction wrenches several years ago. The set consists of 34 wrenches. I need eight more to complete the set.

Jim C.

Very interesting. I've not seen those before. I'll keep my eyes open and let you know if I run across any at auctions etc. Nice collection.

 

[Cruzan80]

Are there 32 different sizes/angles, or the different variants produced over the years add up to 32?

 

[Jim C.]

The wrench heads are all angled at 85 degrees on both ends. There are 34 different DOE wrench head combinations with part numbers that are derived from universally recognized industrial standards. So for example, while there are several wrenches in the set with a 1/2” head on one end, each one is paired with a different size on the opposite end. Those pairings are standardized. This particular set includes 34 of those DOE pairings. Check out this excerpt from AA.

“Open-end wrenches were one of the first tools to be offered in standardized sizes, and from an early date these tools were assigned "standard" model numbers. These numbers actually evolved from the more-or-less sequential model numbers assigned by J.H. Williams & Company, generally credited as being the first tool maker to offer wrenches in standard sizes. As the system proved to be useful, other manufacturers started adopting the same numbering, and soon the wrench models were considered as "Trade Numbers" or "Industry-Standard Numbers".
By the time of the 1912 15th Edition of the Williams catalog, open-end wrenches could still be covered by two-digit model numbers. However, additional size combinations were needed within a few years, and the system was expanded by adding a "7" prefix to some numbers, plus an alphabetic suffix (A, B, or C) to others.
Not all manufacturers adopted the Williams system, at least not at first. Billings & Spencer was probably the most significant manufacturer with a separate numbering system, and their 11xx model series offered even a few more size combinations than Williams.
Williams eventually extended the numbering system to cover box-end wrenches as well, by adding a 4-digit offset to indicate the design. For example, the 8000-series indicated a standard-length offset box “wrenches, and the 9000-series indicated a short offset box wrenches.
By the 1930s, some manufacturers (notably Blue Point/Snap-on and Vlchek) had started using the opening sizes in 32nds to encode the model number for their tools. In this more rational numbering system, the venerable 725B wrench became a (Blue Point Supreme) S1618 or a (Vlchek) W1618 wrench.”


Jim C.

 

[Jim C.]

Very interesting. I've not seen those before. I'll keep my eyes open and let you know if I run across any at auctions etc. Nice collection.

Thanks and good luck! These wrenches are not the easiest things to find. I think Williams started making them in the 1920s. I’m not exactly sure when they were dropped from their product line. Maybe 1930s, 1940s?? Others may have different experiences, but based solely on my experience, I think they’re not very common.

Jim C.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I need eight more to complete the set....[ ]...Others may have different experiences, but based solely on my experience, I think they’re not very common.

Definitely not common. If you and I are any kind of valid informal (but statistically unreliable) indication, when last we compared notes on these types (May 2022, posts #1085-1087, page 28), you needed 12 wrenches to reach 34, and I only had a total of 5 wrenches in my collection. In the interim - a little less than 3 years, you found 4 and I found 3. I'd say that's about the same pace. I don't shop online, so mine were all found in the wild. I can't remember if you're one of those guys who run automated searches and buy from online sources, but if so, that would obviously increase the sources and probably mean they were even scarcer. One or so per year scrounging around at estate sales or flea markets sounds about right.

The wrench heads are all angled at 85 degrees on both ends.

They're 75*, Jim.

I’m not exactly sure when they were dropped from their product line. Maybe 1930s, 1940s??

They last appear in the 1931 catalog and they're not included in the 1937 catalog, so, sometime in between 1932 and 1936.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here's an update on my collection. Woeful in number (and overall condition)! That's a 2731-A, 2729, 2028-S, 2727, and a 2023, for sure. The really fugly finish ones have no legible model number or sizes, but are possibly a 2731-B, 2731, and a 2029. I will likely expire before completion, so I will put a note with them to contact you!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

You may recall from our earlier conversations that I also have these WWII era examples with no branding, no size markings, and only the FSNs that I am 99.9% sure were made by Williams. It's their pattern. (I don't collect Armstrong-Blackhawk, which were symmetrical 75*, but they had different shape heads. I DO collect Bonney, but they were asymmetrical and 90*.) What's interesting about that is that Williams had discontinued these in the mid 1930's. It means they resurrected them for Ordnance Dept wartime requirements and made them with an 8600 or 8700 triple alloy, because their pet Chrome-Molybdenum formula was restricted to conserve the alloys.

 

[Jim C.]

Hey Lugz! Thanks for the additional information. Yes, 75* not 85*. Also, the pamphlet below lists the wrenches that are in the set.

Jim C.

 

[Cruzan80]

Thanks for the clarification guys. Very neat that each is different than the others (not just by model no). I looked at the picture, but couldn't tell simply from there. I will also check and see what I have (I tend to grab things like this, not just Williams, as you never know when it is the right size/shape for a hard to access thing).

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Williams did offer them as a 5-wrench set in a pouch in the same sizes as their standard engineers' 5-wrench set in a pouch, as did the Armstrong-Blackhawk partnership, same set, in the same configuration (75* angles same side of the wrench), as did Bonney, same set, but in a different configuration (90* angles, opposite sides). ISN's 723, 25, 27-C, 28-S, and 731-A. It was the most routine way to go from 3/8" to 7/8" in a 5-wrench set without a duplicate end in that era. And what's good for the goose (engineers 15* angles) is even better for the gander (obstruction). All three mfgrs also used the same model numbering scheme (2XXXX) where the "2" signifies Obstruction series and the "XXXX" is the embedded ISN.

I have only found three (3) of the Bonney (and a dupe) obstruction wrenches in the wild, linked here in the Bonney thread.

I do have this other oddball. As you can see, it follows the Williams and Armstrong-Blackhawk configuration (75* angles same side), but no branding, and does not follow the model numbering scheme. The "R" prefix perhaps signifies Right angle but the "1416" undoubtedly signifies 32nds. I have never identified the mfgr.

 

[3baygarage]

^Blue-Points Chicago oldie there Lugz

 

[3baygarage]

Here’s an interesting Williams SPECIAL stamped NAF wrench.
A modified 1990
AA lists the 1990 as a 5/8 x 5/8 brake wrench.
This has two offset bends.
# NAF 310322-1

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^Blue-Points Chicago oldie there Lugz

Thanks. Too bad the branding is filed/ground off.

AA lists the 1990 as a 5/8 x 5/8 brake wrench.
This has two offset bends.
# NAF 310322-1

1990 "SPECIAL". AA also has a 1990 "SPECIAL" (9/16" x 1/2") with a US Army Ordnance Dept drawing number (A183907) on it. They don't identify the number as anything more than generically "military" but I know it's an ORD number. (I have the reference for an A183908 wrench in my ORD 5 SNL J-4 catalog and it has weird angles, too.) I suspect your NAF wrench is the Navy equivalent to the A183907 and I would guess the offsets are afterfactory. Also guessing late 1941 or early 1942 with the CHROME-ALLOY comp and the cad finish.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here's the reference for AA's 1990 "SPECIAL" with the A183907 ORD number. It's in the toolkit for the M5 and M6 Director (an AA FDC tracking "computer"). The US Navy did not use them. But I can't find your wrench by that or any other NAF number in my Navy NAF Blue Book catalog. I still think it would be the same wrench, w/o the bends, for a similar purpose.

 

[3baygarage]

I was looking at it with the seller, a fellow tool forum member, and I think we agreed it’s different, that’s about it. Hard to tell on the bends. I assumed they were factory. Had to be for some tough to access work.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I assumed they were factory. Had to be for some tough to access work.

For sure. If the bends are factory, it would mean they made two different 1990 Specials, one with bends, and one without. Not arguing with you. Just tough for me to rationalize that.

 

[four.cycle]

@Jim C. and @Private Lugnutz -

The earliest document I have currently showing those obstruction wrenches is dated 1927, which matches the date on your brochure (post #1537)

J.H. Williams & Co., New York, NY - 75° Obstruction Wrench


1927 Motor Age Williams ad pp 72


1927 Motor Williams ad pp 134

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The earliest document I have currently showing those obstruction wrenches is dated 1927,

That's right. Williams never made carbon steel versions of the obstruction wrenches. Instigated by the massive success of the Bonney CV line, Williams made a big deal out of calling the CM composition better when they introduced it in 1925. First they converted all the older wrench types into the new 'Superrench' line, then they added new types. I haven't done it in a long time, but Google Booksing "Williams obstruction" will result in dozens of ads and notices in 1927 and 1928 trade mags introducing them. The ads and notices are an interesting read. They say they were directly inspired by automotive engines and eliminating the need to remove parts just to get at one fastener. They are also a fun read. They "ghost" (or "troll," these days) Bonney's design by emphasizing the ergonomics of both heads on the same side not putting jaws jabbing into your hand or arm.

 

[four.cycle]

^ That answers a question that came to mind while I was digging those out of the Williams folder, noticing that I had nothing for 1928 or 1929 showing those models, although I have dozens of catalog pages for those years that show every other type of wrench Williams was offering. That may or may not necessarily mean anything at all, but caused me to wonder if perhaps these just didn't "catch on" with those wholesale tool distributors for a few years. The latest page I found showing those was 1940, but again, that may or may not mean anything.

I never found anything showing a model "1990".
This did, however, provide the answer to why my file listing script wasn't working correctly.

 

[Jay__Dub]

Found a couple in the lastest wrench lot I got. I had no idea they made wrenches in Canada, and can't find a reference to it, but there it is. Unfortunately, both logos are pitted.

 

[four.cycle]

Williams CANADA - start here (and following posts)

 

[Jay__Dub]

Williams CANADA - start here (and following posts)

Thanks.

 

[jabberwoki]

I`ll add this here .

 

[Old Radar]

That's a BFW!

 

[Beerhippie]

I "left behind" an 18" 7/8" DOE Williams today. No need for a 7/8" BFW in the shop.

 

[jabberwoki]

Since when does need come in to it?

Want is enough.

 

[Beerhippie]

Since when does need come in to it?

Want is enough.

Since my shop and cabin are full!

And it isn't even my shop.

I passed on two little vises today--a rather beat Craftsman and a Columbia--because I don't have any room for another vise. I had to mount the last one on a cart.

 

[bonneyman]

I started collecting these Williams obstruction wrenches several years ago. The set consists of 34 wrenches. I need eight more to complete the set.

Jim C.

Nice, Jim! You've surpassed my collection. Haven't found a single new wrench in years.

But I do use them occasionally. Very comfortable to use, nice angle prevents wrench slip, good size range.

 

[Jim C.]

George, you got me started on collecting these wrenches. That was a while back. As you know, it’s a very tough set to complete. With eight wrenches still to find, I do wonder if I’ll ever finish it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a complete set. Like you, I do occasionally use them, mostly to work on vintage woodworking machinery. I have a lot of duplicates.

Jim C.

 

[bonneyman]

George, you got me started on collecting these wrenches. That was a while back. As you know, it’s a very tough set to complete. With eight wrenches still to find, I do wonder if I’ll ever finish it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a complete set. Like you, I do occasionally use them, mostly to work on vintage woodworking machinery. I have a lot of duplicates.

Jim C.

Yes sir, I remember. Sorry I pushed you into that rabbit hole 10 years ago. lol
But you seem to have done very well. Hope you find those last 8!

 

[Steven 33]

S30 breaker bar