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JIS screwdriver

four.cycle

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stop agonizing over screwdrivers. blow $20 bucks and discover what you've been missing all this time:



you can thank me later. ;)
 
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Jack Ryan

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Technically no one makes actual JIS screwdrivers anymore, but there is an ISO standard that supersedes JIS, and is compatible both JIS and Phillips standards. I believe this is why newer Phillips drivers are not as "sharp" (for lack of a better word) as they used to be.

That said, get the Vessel. They are among the best screwdrivers you can get, and they do fit JIS screws well.
Japanese manufacturers still comply with the current JIS standard.

JIS is the standards organisation and it still operates. The standard in question is JIS B 4633 and has been updated. The current standard is JIS B 4633, 98th Edition, October 20, 2023.

So, Japanese cross point screwdrivers are still made to JIS B 4633.

The updated Japanese standard is equivalent to ISO 8764-1 and ISO 8764-2, the same standards that cover Phillips screwdrivers. I believe the measurements in the Japanese standard are not identical to the ISO measurements but are within the ISO tolerances.

That said, I use Vessel cross point screwdrivers as they fit old JIS and Phillips head screws very well.

Jack
 

ronkz650

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I just use Vessel, as for sure they fit Japanese screws since they are Japanese made. As to other brands, most new ones with the DIN5260 standard fit good enough most likely. I know for sure I have a nice Wiha driver that is by far the most terrible screwdriver ever in history to fit a JIS screw, but it's 15yrs old or more. Maybe the new ones work better. Also JIS driver is not always better for all screws. I work on Pinball machines and a JIS screwdriver is a terrible fit, but the Wiha fits perfectly. On a motorcycle use the Vessel.
 
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Johnny_opm

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You're stripping the rotor screws because they're soft rusted fasteners and you're using a screwdriver to take them out. Get a hand impact driver with a Phillips #3 and dip the tip in valve grinding compound. If you want something just for rotor screws that's specifically JIS compatible just get a #3 vessel impacta or their impact driver kit.
 

bwringer

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The Honda rotor screws are really best to use #3 and an impact driver
Agreed. Rotor screws will just laugh at your pissy little screwdriver and puny human hands.

To be clear, you need the old-school sort of impact driver that you hit with a hammer, really hard. You need a good beefy one, not the shiny flaky chrome $10 version found in certain tool stores.

This sinister black version from Lisle, for example. It's all business. Should be on the shelf at an auto emporium near you.

One of the problems here is that there are several distinct types of tools called "impact". The only way to deal with those stupid rotor screws is the old-school hit-with-a-hammer sort, not anything with a battery, air hose, or cord.

Oh, and replace the damn screws, wouldya? FFS, don't just pop 'em back in all mangled to piss off the next guy (who may be you)...


But yeah, that said, for other stuff on Toy Yoda and Honderrr products and other Japanese brand machinery (especially older stuff), get yew sum Vessel screwdrivers ASAP.

I've had mixed luck with the Vessel Impacta. It's a screwdriver you can hit, with a hidden spring loaded ramp mechanism. It can work on "lightly stuck" stuff, but the long shank seriously limits the amount of shock and awe they can transmit. Since nothing ever seems to be lightly stuck in my world, it's mostly just a nice screwdriver.
 

jayemm

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Agreed. Rotor screws will just laugh at your pissy little screwdriver and puny human hands.

To be clear, you need the old-school sort of impact driver that you hit with a hammer, really hard. You need a good beefy one, not the shiny flaky chrome $10 version found in certain tool stores.

This sinister black version from Lisle, for example. It's all business. Should be on the shelf at an auto emporium near you.

One of the problems here is that there are several distinct types of tools called "impact". The only way to deal with those stupid rotor screws is the old-school hit-with-a-hammer sort, not anything with a battery, air hose, or cord.

Oh, and replace the damn screws, wouldya? FFS, don't just pop 'em back in all mangled to piss off the next guy (who may be you)...


But yeah, that said, for other stuff on Toy Yoda and Honderrr products and other Japanese brand machinery (especially older stuff), get yew sum Vessel screwdrivers ASAP.

I've had mixed luck with the Vessel Impacta. It's a screwdriver you can hit, with a hidden spring loaded ramp mechanism. It can work on "lightly stuck" stuff, but the long shank seriously limits the amount of shock and awe they can transmit. Since nothing ever seems to be lightly stuck in my world, it's mostly just a nice screwdriver.
Why even replace the rotor screws. I thought they are only there to hold the rotor while on the assembly line before the wheels are installed. I've fought those rusty bastards a few times in years past and see no need to reinstall for the next unlucky person. If the wheel clamps the rotor on the hub then what other purpose do they really serve.
 

51dueller

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It's not much of an issue on vehicles with wheel studs but a vehicle that uses wheel bolts like a BMW, the rotor can spin free of the hub. Not very fun trying to change a tire when you got to line up the wheel, rotor and hub to start a wheel bolt.

When I still worked in the automotive trade, I would use a torch with welding tip, heat the screw red hot and let it cool down. Usually just needed a screwdriver to remove. If not, one hit from the impact driver removed it. Reinstalled them with a drop of antisieze.
 

neophyte

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Japanese manufacturers still comply with the current JIS standard.

JIS is the standards organisation and it still operates. The standard in question is JIS B 4633 and has been updated. The current standard is JIS B 4633, 98th Edition, October 20, 2023.

So, Japanese cross point screwdrivers are still made to JIS B 4633.

The updated Japanese standard is equivalent to ISO 8764-1 and ISO 8764-2, the same standards that cover Phillips screwdrivers. I believe the measurements in the Japanese standard are not identical to the ISO measurements but are within the ISO tolerances.

That said, I use Vessel cross point screwdrivers as they fit old JIS and Phillips head screws very well.

Jack
So, the old joke was “the nice thing about standards is there are do many to choose from”.
Is the new joke “the nice thing about standards, is you can change or update the standards “specifications” but keep the standard name, so customers still get items made to the “same” standards”?
 

Hohn

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Hohn

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so-you-re-telling-me-that-s-not-a-phillips.jpg

JIS screwdrivers, and the new ISO standard Phillips screwdrivers, fit traditional Phillips screws just fine because the splines full engage. However, the old Phillips screwdriver style doesn't fit JIS screws well because it's "voids" between the splines aren't as deep - so it doesn't fully seat.

Vessel, by the way, still advertises "JIS" on their screwdrivers, but like Bubba Fett said, I'm not sure they're actually JIS tips. Whatever they are, they fit JIS screws really well.
If the Vessels are wrong, I don't need to be right. Try this with a Phillips:
1711475457635.png
This is why this driver is magic on brake rotor screws. Fits like a glove *and* has the impact mechanism built in.
 

F-22

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JDTCO has a Vessel set that I plan on getting.
Only Philips, no flat heads.

That's the one set from Vessel I would avoid. Almost all other screwdrivers they offer are made in their factory in Japan, but these are not. Crystaline lineup from Vessel is their entry level but they're top quality too.

So, the old joke was “the nice thing about standards is there are do many to choose from”.
Is the new joke “the nice thing about standards, is you can change or update the standards “specifications” but keep the standard name, so customers still get items made to the “same” standards”?

I's due to regulations and laws and paperwork... It is easier in Japan to examine JIS standards than ISO, and then also far easier than examining DIN standards in Japan. Their examiners do not have the right accreditation as they would in that case need to report to the German centers. Instead they base their own standards on the German ones and then just report to their institution regarding the compliance.

Maybe I can explain with a similar example in metrology. Most large companies and universities in Japan and in the world have its own metrology lab. The equipment in those labs calibrates the scales and calipers and other measuring equipment. The equipment those labs use is calibrated based on bigger regional metrology centres. Those regional centres are calibrated based on national metrology labs. But all of those labs are calibrated based on the Bureau international des poids et mesures (BIPM) centre in Paris. It would make no sense for every factory to send their equipment to france for calibration... Similar with standards, it is way easier to manage local standards even if they are based on foreign ones.

If the Vessels are wrong, I don't need to be right. Try this with a Phillips:
1711475457635.png
This is why this driver is magic on brake rotor screws. Fits like a glove *and* has the impact mechanism built in.
PB Swiss does the same when new for sure. Did it as a party trick at work a few times. My impacta was also magnetized when new.
 

jayemm

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It's not much of an issue on vehicles with wheel studs but a vehicle that uses wheel bolts like a BMW, the rotor can spin free of the hub. Not very fun trying to change a tire when you got to line up the wheel, rotor and hub to start a wheel bolt.

When I still worked in the automotive trade, I would use a torch with welding tip, heat the screw red hot and let it cool down. Usually just needed a screwdriver to remove. If not, one hit from the impact driver removed it. Reinstalled them with a drop of antisieze.
Gotcha. My experience was with those crappy, unreliable Honda's I read about on this forum.;)
 

srs2000

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I played around with that when I got my chiseldrivers. It's entertaining especially when your previous screwdrivers were terrible.

VM9auiZ.jpg
PB Swiss does the same when new for sure. Did it as a party trick at work a few times. My impacta was also magnetized when new.
 

neophyte

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That's the one set from Vessel I would avoid. Almost all other screwdrivers they offer are made in their factory in Japan, but these are not. Crystaline lineup from Vessel is their entry level but they're top quality too.



I's due to regulations and laws and paperwork... It is easier in Japan to examine JIS standards than ISO, and then also far easier than examining DIN standards in Japan. Their examiners do not have the right accreditation as they would in that case need to report to the German centers. Instead they base their own standards on the German ones and then just report to their institution regarding the compliance.

Maybe I can explain with a similar example in metrology. Most large companies and universities in Japan and in the world have its own metrology lab. The equipment in those labs calibrates the scales and calipers and other measuring equipment. The equipment those labs use is calibrated based on bigger regional metrology centres. Those regional centres are calibrated based on national metrology labs. But all of those labs are calibrated based on the Bureau international des poids et mesures (BIPM) centre in Paris. It would make no sense for every factory to send their equipment to france for calibration... Similar with standards, it is way easier to manage local standards even if they are based on foreign ones.


PB Swiss does the same when new for sure. Did it as a party trick at work a few times. My impacta was also magnetized when new.

The standard in question is JIS B 4633 and has been updated. The current standard is JIS B 4633, 98th Edition, October 20, 2023.

So, Japanese cross point screwdrivers are still made to JIS B 4633.

The updated Japanese standard is equivalent to ISO 8764-1 and ISO 8764-2, the same standards that cover Phillips screwdrivers. I believe the measurements in the Japanese standard are not identical to the ISO measurements but are within the ISO tolerances.”

If “JIS B 4633” changed, then the actual “JIS standard” may have changed, but anyone looking for a “JIS B 4633” standard screwdriver, to match one they previously purchased, may wind up with a screwdriver with a different geometry, than than a previously purchased “JIS B 4633” standard screwdriver.
Without knowing specifics on how the “JIS B 4633” standard was updated, there is no way for a user to know if the change in the standard might cause problems, or differences in function.
If the change us something like the accuracy dimensions or precision of the bits have to be within .0001 inches of tolerance under the updated standard, verses .001 inches of dimension under the old standards, or the changes in spec are from equivalent inches to metric dimensions, then there would likely be no issue.
If the changes to the standard gave to due with geometry, such as specific angles, or depth of the driver gullets, then there could be differences for a user in actual use and function, and the changes to the standard should be known, and properly noted to users who may not actually purchase the standards specifications from the standard agency (which is usually not inexpensive).
Further, if a tool user purchases a current JIS specified driver from a dealer, made to “JIS B 4633”, but then purchases older stock “JIS B 4633” specified drivers, the “new/old stock” “JIS B 4633” may not work for the purchaser, and the purchaser may have no clue why drivers, made to the “exact same spec”, may not function the same, other than thinking the manufacturer has **** quality control.

This was one of the issues with pliers from US manufacturers.
The manufacturer would mention that x cutter meant a certain government spec, but the US manufacturer would not actually tell you what that spec meant.
Fir a tool like eire cutters, or pliers with built in cutters, knowing whether you can cut hard wire like piano wire, or just general steel wire, and the maximum and minimum gauge wires you can safely cut, without destroying the cutter edges, is actually important.
European manufacturers on the other hand seem to be or gave been required to list these specs, or at least are all in the habit of doing so.
An individual tool buyer is unlikely to spend several hundred dollars, or whatever the price is, to purchase the specification standard from the standards agency, although I presume some larger corporations might.
I’m not even sure a large public library or university would have those specification standards.
 
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Jack Ryan

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So, the old joke was “the nice thing about standards is there are do many to choose from”.
Is the new joke “the nice thing about standards, is you can change or update the standards “specifications” but keep the standard name, so customers still get items made to the “same” standards”?
Standards are updated all the time. The Phillips standard was also updated.

ANSI Z49.1:2005, for example, has been updated multiple times to become ANSI Z49.1:2021. They are qualified with a year, as I did with the JIS standard.

AWS, ANSI, IEEE, ISO and many others. They all evolve over time - there are (evolving) standards defining how updated standards are coded.

Jack
 

Hohn

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Fir a tool like eire cutters, or pliers with built in cutters, knowing whether you can cut hard wire like piano wire, or just general steel wire, and the maximum and minimum gauge wires you can safely cut, without destroying the cutter edges, is actually important.
European manufacturers on the other hand seem to be or gave been required to list these specs, or at least are all in the habit of doing so.
An individual tool buyer is unlikely to spend several hundred dollars, or whatever the price is, to purchase the specification standard from the standards agency, although I presume some larger corporations might.
I’m not even sure a large public library or university would have those specification standards.

This is one of my favorite things Knipex does with their cutters. They tell you graphically right on the package. It turns out that guitar string wire is harder than most metal wires, but not anything as hard as piano wire.

Most of the standards require payment to a subscription service like IHS and are cost-prohibitive for home gamers. Unless you happen to agree, for example, with the SAE that a pdf is worth $141.
 

Hohn

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Standards are updated all the time. The Phillips standard was also updated.

...They all evolve over time - there are (evolving) standards defining how updated standards are coded.

Jack
Yes, and those updates almost always consider retro-compatibility. It's *extremely* rare for a common standard to be updated in any way that is 1) functionally consequential, and 2) not retrocompatible, or 3) worse in performance.
 

Newell33

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stop agonizing over screwdrivers. blow $20 bucks and discover what you've been missing all this time:



you can thank me later. ;)

I ordered one of these a couple of years ago after reading about JIS here on Garage Journal. I work on a lot of older Kawasaki, Honda, and Yamaha ATVs, and thought it would be beneficial. I've found that my Milwaukee screwdrivers seem to fit tighter and work better than the Vessel JIS. My Vessel now stays in the toolbox and never gets used. Maybe the screws I'm attempting to remove aren't JIS, or maybe the Milwaukee are JIS compatible. I'm not sure the Milwaukees are anything special, but they seem to be the best in my toolbox by far.
 

JradM

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I ordered one of these a couple of years ago after reading about JIS here on Garage Journal. I work on a lot of older Kawasaki, Honda, and Yamaha ATVs, and thought it would be beneficial. I've found that my Milwaukee screwdrivers seem to fit tighter and work better than the Vessel JIS. My Vessel now stays in the toolbox and never gets used. Maybe the screws I'm attempting to remove aren't JIS, or maybe the Milwaukee are JIS compatible. I'm not sure the Milwaukees are anything special, but they seem to be the best in my toolbox by far.
JIS screws have a dimple on the head, so it's easy to check if that's what you're dealing with.

s-l1200.jpg
so-you-re-telling-me-that-s-not-a-phillips.jpg

Those Japanese ATVs you're working on seem like they would all have JIS screws, but I'm kind of suspicious when you say your Vessel screwdriver doesn't fit them well.
 

Jack Ryan

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Yes, and those updates almost always consider retro-compatibility. It's *extremely* rare for a common standard to be updated in any way that is 1) functionally consequential, and 2) not retrocompatible, or 3) worse in performance.
Yes, that's true, and I believe that's what happened.

The JIS standard was altered slightly to be compatible with the new ISO standard and the ISO standard significantly improved the original Phillips standard. I think the main purpose was to get a Phillips standard that was more like the JIS standard so that the drivers all worked. Now it is up to the manufacturers.

Jack
 

Newell33

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JIS screws have a dimple on the head, so it's easy to check if that's what you're dealing with.

s-l1200.jpg
so-you-re-telling-me-that-s-not-a-phillips.jpg

Those Japanese ATVs you're working on seem like they would all have JIS screws, but I'm kind of suspicious when you say your Vessel screwdriver doesn't fit them well.

I was suspicious of your suspicions, so I decided to drag the Vessel and Milwaukee screwdrivers out of my box to take another look. I learned something new on the dimple, so I appreciate that. This example shows the screws of a brake lever assembly on a mid-90's Kawasaki Bayou 300 4x4. I see the dimples on the heads of the screws, so I assume these are JIS. The Milwaukee clearly fits better on this screw. What I've found, however, is that I have a Vessel P1x100. According to the chart I found online this part number equates more to a #1 screwdriver, whereas the Milwaukee is a #2. Looks like for proper comparison I'd need a Vessel P2x100. I will say, however, that I'm not sure how the P2x100 would fit better than the Milwaukee. It's my go-to on these machines as the fit is perfect. Maybe I'll give a P2 Vessel a try in the future to see how it works.
 

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F-22

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PH1 JIS screwdriver will work worse in a PH2 JIS screw than a PH2 US standard Phillips will work in it, that's certain. But I assume the Milwaukee is made to the modern ISO standards and fits quite good into that screw anyway.
 

oldschoolcraft

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People post comparisons online of Phillips vs JIS screwdrivers and they all say “here you can tell the clear difference” yet I can’t see any differences
Once you join the Organization of Vessel Monks, you will receive training, in exchange for your $350 membership fee that will teach you to see the difference. It also includes complementary Amazon.JP Prime membership.

In all seriousness, is that true that there isn't a JIS specific screwdriver anymore? That modern Philips are backwards compatible? What year did tool companies make the switch? I wonder if my 5 or 10 year old screwdrivers are the new better kind? Maybe I can buy some JIS screw to try my screwdrivers in for a fit test.

If I want a JIS Philips socket, should I go Koken to be safe?
 
Last edited:

oldschoolcraft

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If you're too cheap to buy a $10 screwdriver that will save you hours of work I don't think any of us can help you.
If you really want to sell these $10 screwdrivers, have Harbor Freight brand them Icon, list them at $29.99, give a few free to Tik Tok influencers, post pics on Instagram with the screwdrivers stabbed into a tree trunk on the top of a mountain overlooking a valley, only stock stores with 1 screwdriver per store, list some eBay for $99 and buy them yourself to establish a strong secondary market.

Then slowly start releasing them to stores and you'll sell more screwdrivers than you could possibly import.
 

rust in the eye

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It's not much of an issue on vehicles with wheel studs but a vehicle that uses wheel bolts like a BMW, the rotor can spin free of the hub. Not very fun trying to change a tire when you got to line up the wheel, rotor and hub to start a wheel bolt.

When I still worked in the automotive trade, I would use a torch with welding tip, heat the screw red hot and let it cool down. Usually just needed a screwdriver to remove. If not, one hit from the impact driver removed it. Reinstalled them with a drop of antisieze.
A late reply, I know. Agreed they aren't needed and also with anti-seize if reinstalling. Every BMW and MB has a wheel alignment stud with the supplied tire changing equipment. Turn one hole to twelve O'clock, hang the wheel on the stud, no struggle aligning all the holes.
 

bobg03

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OP weren't you here with a similar handle (name) in the last 1.5 to 2 years ago trying to change a motor or timing belt in an older Lexus that was a driveway fix?
Buy the Vessel and be done..
 

laokk

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I need a jis screwdriver, because all my Phillips are stripping out my Honda and Lexus rotor screws. How can i tell if my screwdriver I have right now is JIS? I found this screwdriver in my 1994 ls400 trunk from the factory tool kit, is it safe to assume this is JIS? I’m having a hard time telling the difference between the two despite there being info online.
If you are looking for JIS - J000, J00, J0, J1 ( P.000, P.00, P.0, P.1 ) then look at the IFIXIT Pro Tech Toolkit
 

Hakeem

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That's the one set from Vessel I would avoid. Almost all other screwdrivers they offer are made in their factory in Japan, but these are not. Crystaline lineup from Vessel is their entry level but they're top quality too.
Huh, I wasn’t aware. I got the 8-piece set for like $30 and have been very happy. Grip feels comfortable and the tips have held up well. They’re missing the knurling on the shaft and the “teeth” on the tip of the Megadora but otherwise are very nice
 

Chipm

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I need a jis screwdriver, because all my Phillips are stripping out my Honda and Lexus rotor screws. How can i tell if my screwdriver I have right now is JIS? I found this screwdriver in my 1994 ls400 trunk from the factory tool kit, is it safe to assume this is JIS? I’m having a hard time telling the difference between the two despite there being info online.
For rotor screws you need an impact screwdriver. Vessel makes 5/16 impact JIS bits.
 
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