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Kerosene Heaters

bmxdad

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I'm l looking at heating options and I see nothing on Kerosene heaters ... is there something I'm not seeing?

We used to set four or five up in a large horse arena for BMX races during the winter, and they worked pretty good keeping the chill off.

So why so little use??
 
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Falcon67

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They stink, lack of easily available fuel IMHO. Used to have one long ago, PITA to use as I remember. Used to be able to by kero at some gas pumps, not sure where you'd find it now except over priced at a home center. I've seen people use kero turbo heaters at the track, those stink like hell too.
 

LS6 Tommy

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The "turbo" heaters do smell a bit and they're noisy. I have a 70k Btu "turbo" heater and (2) round wick style heaters that used to be in the race shop. The wick heaters are silent & don't seem to smell. At least not that I can tell. The turbo has a built it t-stat, so I start all 3 up & go back into the house. When I hear the turbo shut off I know the garage is warm & I go out & unplug the turbo. The wick heaters keep it nice after that. I don't go out in the garage much in the winter, but if I could heat the garage with natural gas I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Tommy
 

Davefr

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It's so much easier to buy a tank of Propane then find a source of bulk Kerosene.

It's also a lot easier to refuel. (Just transfer the hose to a new tank which takes about 30 seconds).
 

NUTTSGT

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Loud, noisy and smelly. For a quick source of temp heat, they are great. When it comes to an everyday use, smelling and listening to them gets old real fast. There are better options out there.

I still have mine for just in case but it's rare that it gets broken out.
 

Jackfre

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There were two types. The old Kerosun vent free unit and the Monitor type DV units. As a heating fuel Keros is on the way out along with #2 fuel oil. Cost/btu and service requirements are the cause.

I'm biased due to long affiliation but the best of the un-vented gas and DV units are the Rinnai 824 Fan Convector and the Energysaver DV's. For temporary heat the 824 is hard to beat.
 

rlitman

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There were two types. The old Kerosun vent free unit and the Monitor type DV units.

There are way more than two types.

Kerosun was an example of a reflecting wick heater. Aladdin and Perfection made omni-directional wick heaters. These smell mostly when the wick burns out. Newer generation ones use a catalytic system to increase efficiency and make the exhaust cleaner. These generally require no electricity to run, but run silently (and the omni style can heat a kettle on the top too).

Then there's the torpedo/salamander heater. Lots of smell when starting, lots of smell when stopping, some smell when running. Lots of either CO or NOx in the exhaust (you'll get one, or the other, or both, depending on the fuel ratio). Either way, you're breathing not so great exhaust (technically the same as above, but with more heat comes more exhaust, and these do not burn as clean as a wick either, especially because there is no catalytic stage). These require electricity to run the blower and the pump, and spray a mist of fuel that is burned in the tube. They're also pretty loud.

Then there are the newest type heaters, which are catalytic radiant. They work unvented, but burn extremely cleanly. They're kind of a love child of the above two types. They use electricity to run a blower and a pump, and have no wick, but burn atomized fuel on a catalytic grid. They still smell at startup and shutdown, but during operation they burn much more cleanly than the torpedo option above, even though they have such high heat outputs. Also not as loud or large as a torpedo.

Finally, there is the monitor type. This is essentially a direct vent ductless hot air furnace. That's what I have in my shop. No smell inside. Just a little smell outdoors when it starts up. No louder than a quiet table top fan. Only 93% efficient, but absolutely no exhaust gases are released indoors.

As for why kerosene?

It ONLY makes sense if you can find a gas station pump source. At the ludicrous markup that hardware stores get per gallon, using kerosene is nuts, and costs more than propane.

I've worked out a spreadsheet of comparative heat sources.
First, an overestimate for the price of kerosene at the pump (last winter was closer to $4/gal). Second, the stupid price of a gallon of kerosene at HD (with sales tax). Third, the stupid price I pay to exchange a propane tank around here (assuming I get 4 gallons in a BBQ tank, which is a little optimistic). Fourth, the cost of a BBQ tank refill at the cheapest place I can find. Last, electricity at my average local rate (which is WAY above the national average).

Not included are natural gas (which would by FAR, be the cheapest source), and propane from a larger tank. What I found was that propane from a BBQ tank is a nice portable source of heat when you have no electricity available, but otherwise, an electric heater doesn't look so bad cost wise if you're only running it for a few minutes to warm your fingers.
 

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bmxdad

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So ... besides the smell, which I have a minimal amount of, and if you can get it in bulk it doesn't look all that bad.

I'm going to see what bulk prices are ... someone must have it in large quantities.

Nice information guys .. thanks.
 

kenfain

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just west of Walton
Seven bucks a gallon is what killed it for me. And that is the bulk price around here. Maybe if a guy purchased several hundred gallons, it'd be less but I doubt it.
Then I switched to a diesel fired torpedo type heater, it worked much better. Now even that's too expensive. Here in Texas, it doesn't get that cold. If it did, and I felt like I needed to get it warm enough to be comfortable, like making a living turning wrenches or something. I'd probably look at natural gas, or propane.
 

CWO4GUNNER

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BHC AZ
We used them stationed on Japan to heat the house a little extra during devotions. Fast forward 35 years and their just a memory. Now in SW Arizona since 2004 I hardly ever break out the little electric oil filled radiator type heater. In fact each year the winter hear have gotten more mild. Summer is becoming the bigger challenge here. I have heard of campers in the mountains who have all suffocated in the nigt using them huttled in a tent or van.
 
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bmxdad

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My electricity is charged at about $.083 Kwh, which is ~$2.433 ... so way cheaper then most of the states.

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Maybe a small electrical heater would be the way to go ... with a Kerosene for the times we get below freezing.
 
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Highbeam

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My electricity is charged at about $.083 Kwh, which is ~$2.433 ... so way cheaper then most of the states.

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Maybe a small electrical heater would be the way to go ... with a Kerosene for the times we get below freezing.

No, your electric is just a hair under 10 cents per kwh. Divide the WHOLE bill by the kwh used to find the actual cost.

Don't waste any money on a kerosene heater. Our local "bulk" sources or kerosene are far more expensive than anything else. Sure, they're convenient and I don't even mind the smell but they are a bad economical choice.
 
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bmxdad

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$3.40 is still cheap ... so what are you heating with? Propane might be doable too ... didn't even think about it.
 
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Highbeam

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$3.40 is still cheap ... so what are you heating with? Propane might be doable too ... didn't even think about it.

In our area, electric heat is really hard to beat. Even just straight resistance electric is right there with propane. Consider that you already have an endless supply of electric fuel "piped" to your shop. Electric heat is quiet, no chimneys, no secondary fuel source, cheap equipment, low/no maintenance, etc.

Superior to both electric and propane is firewood, wood pellets, minisplit electric (300% efficient), or NG if you have it which I don't.

I am using firewood in my permitted shop stove, plus electric resistance. I have plumbing and an RV with water in the pipes to keep from freezing but I make no effort to keep it comfortable out there all the time.

I did install radiant tubing in the floor which I may just hookup when I finish the ceiling insulation. You can heat water with any of these fuels as well.
 

xtremek

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I don't plan on keeping the barn heated all the time. My plan is to bring it up to temp with a torpedo while the furnace is starting up. I can put up witha little stink for quicker heat up times.
 

Highbeam

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Is the, mini-split, heat pump?, that efficient? I have NG, but it'll have to wait.

Yes, the minisplit heat pumps heat or cool air with 300-400% efficiency. When outside temps are super low, efficiency may fall to 200% but never as bad as 100% which is what resistance elements make.

They're pretty cool.
 

rlitman

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I don't plan on keeping the barn heated all the time. My plan is to bring it up to temp with a torpedo while the furnace is starting up. I can put up witha little stink for quicker heat up times.

Well, my suggestion if you choose this method is to point the torpedo away, and let it warm up until the cone starts to glow a little (shouldn't take more than a minute or two) before turning it around and using it to heat your interior space.

Then when you're ready to shut it down, roll it outside and close the door before shutting it off. Expect it to smoke for a few minutes, and there's no point in letting the smoke get inside.
 
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bmxdad

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Yes, the minisplit heat pumps heat or cool air with 300-400% efficiency. When outside temps are super low, efficiency may fall to 200% but never as bad as 100% which is what resistance elements make.

They're pretty cool.

How can you get more then 100% efficiency? Maybe I'm hearing it wrong ... 300% is getting extra energy for what's being put in :confused:

Electric heaters are not really 100% efficient ... may 95% or so.
 
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rlitman

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How can you get more then 100% efficiency? Maybe I'm hearing it wrong ... 300% is getting extra energy for what's being put in :confused:

Electric heaters are not really 100% efficient ... may 95% or so.

No, you are getting it all wrong.

Electric heaters ARE 100% efficient. 100% of the electricity consumed by an electric heater gets put out as heat.
Thermodynamically, this is taking energy from the power plant, and converting it to heat in your house.

Heat pumps do not convert electricity to heat. They only move heat.
They are taking heat from OUTSIDE, and moving it inside, while using energy from the power plant to move the heat.
Thermodynamically, they are not directly converting electricity into heat (except for the heat lost to the carnot cycle, and other system inefficiencies).

If you consider efficiency to be the heat moved into your house, in relation to the amount of power consumed by the power plant, then this would appear to be greater than 100% efficient. But only because a heat pump is also making the outside colder than it was before (not that you'd notice).
 
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bmxdad

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They're not really 100%, but I get what you mean ... they're close enough. And the heat pump I understand now. Its just moving the heat from outside to inside. Pricy though. Wonder what the ROI is when comparing electric heat, heat pump, propane and kerosene.
 

rlitman

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No, resistive electric heaters are pretty much 100% (ok, 99.99999% if that makes you happy).

Even if they emit visible light (as in a quartz radiant electric heater), that will end up as heat in the same room.
Any magnetic field from the heater coil will be negligible, but will mostly end up as heat as well (and what doesn't, does not end up as billable watts on your power meter).

By 100%, we mean that whatever the watts consumed by the heater will be equal to the watts of heat put into the room, and the watts recorded by your power meter (and billed by your utility).

ROI is a good question. I've seen sites that calculate this for you.
But ROI is a tricky number. Especially when the initial investment is high (so you need to calculate interest loss against that), and ROI is long term (so what happens if the equipment fails before breakeven).
 
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Highbeam

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Great posts Rlitman, you've got it down.

Some folks get all cross eyed when you tell them electric baseboard heaters are 100% efficient since they've always grown up being told electricity is so expensive. Yes, it is expensive but it is also a zero waste heat source. That is unlike NG, LP, or other fuels being burned where heat (and unburned fuel) is wasted up the flue stack. With those fuels, the fuel itself is often cheap enough to offset the waste.

The feeble little electric space heater, like a toaster, is quite dependable and cheap to install. We are lucky to have such cheap electric rates that heating with resistance can be a good deal.
 
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