Lakefront barn - Michigan Carr

[Farmall450]

Wow, looks good OP. Lots of concrete in this one!

 

[chevyracer5613]

Tapout187- Thank you! I placed the lift about 12.5' from the front wall, some quick math suggested it would be ideal considering my space and what I plan to do. I think 10-15' would be typical but it'd depend on if you want to use a symmetric or asymmetric lift and if you plan to load anything heavy like a diesel truck.

My logic is that most vehicle are about 16' long, so loaded symmetric would be 8' front and back (relative to hoist) and leave 4' of clearance to walk in front of the vehicle to my work area. However, a truck is closer to 20', so this leave 2' of clearance, but a diesel would be shifted further back (because you need to support the CG). Having a 22' diesel truck loaded 70% rearward is about 15.5', plus another 16.5' truck leaves (lift 12' from wall plus 15.5 of the truck behind lift + 16.5' for another vehicle) leave 1ft of clearance between vehicles and the back wall (since a 48' barn is really about 46' interior). Lastly, the rails for my overhead garage doors go back about 12'...so the lift will sit very close to them.

Oh here are some general guidelines from a life I am considering.

 

[chevyracer5613]

Drive- Thanks....it took a lot of planning and double checking measurements!

From what was suggested, i'd like 50's would be good weather, all about controlling curing time

Good to know about the Trex, I am open to the idea of playing around in the future, I have a concrete place literally like a mile north of me.

Actually probably neither. I did the "bubble" insulation on the exterior to give me a thermal bridge and air seal, now I could get away with batt insulation and I should have a reasonably tight building (For a barn)......unless I get an awesome deal on rigid insulation, then I might. The biggest thing for me to decide after gas/electric is done, is how I want to build up the walls. The last barn was easy b/c a 1.5" sheet of rigid insulation plus a 2x4 put the wall in line with the main posts. If I don't do rigid insulation, i debated on joist hangers/blocks and running girts interior to the posts so that they are flush, or live with the 1.5" of interior reduction on each corner and run girts on the interior faces of the posts...maybe 2x6 and or i'll brace the center. I am happy I put some insulation on the exterior perimeter of the concrete floor, it only took 2 4x8 sheets for 1.5" and some time to cut it up.....research says a significant portion of your heating is lost through this portion of the slab.

Thanks and Happy Christmas to you too!

 

[chevyracer5613]

Famall450, thanks! Yes, a little over 4500 sqft of concrete, generally 4" thick but it was thickened up in a few key areas (where it meets the road and where the lift will go)....actually by my measurements the entire concrete floor must be 5"+ but that is just a bonus

 

[Farmall450]

Famall450, thanks! Yes, a little over 4500 sqft of concrete, generally 4" thick but it was thickened up in a few key areas (where it meets the road and where the lift will go)....actually by my measurements the entire concrete floor must be 5"+ but that is just a bonus

It's nice when they over shoot. Spec'd out 6 and got more like 8 around the edges, can't really complain about that!

 

[chevyracer5613]

Farmall450 - For sure, its also a nice sign of people that care about their work and would rather over-deliver. He even put a little sealant down, without cost, just because I mentioned that my last floor (another guy) was annoying with all of the dust.

 

[chevyracer5613]

I took a timelapse of the build, I couldn't get the GIF to work, so I attached a youtube link

 

[chevyracer5613]

BTWif anyone is considering to wire their barn themselves, I found this (kind of lengthy) write up pretty good for explaining a few potentially confusing points:
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/home...o-dwellings/wiring-a-detached-garage-2002.php

I'll be running 4 wire, MHF 2-2-2-4 AL wire, from a sub panel in the home, to the sub (sub) panel in the barn. Per my research, it looks like ground rods are helpful to be installed to help protect against lightning strikes, for my situation.

Also, if anyone is curious. I'll be running 3/4" gas. CSST is very easy to work with, although poly is used for the buried portion. I am using "Xrisers" from Chicago fittings, that were like half the price of box stores and super easy to work with.

Gas is 12-18" deep (only has to be 12" here), and 18-24" deep for the electric, they are spaced about 2' apart, although at the house they are about 14".

Ah, maybe someone will be in the same spot I was in. So I used MHF for the outside portion, but without conduit, it can't come inside (apparently since it doesn't have a single jacket rated for indoor use??), anyhow, once inside (with a short run of conduit), i'll be using a Jbox (junction) and "splicing" it with similarly sized AL SER rated wire. I was surprised that it was so difficult to find a simple, clean, safe way to connect everything. There are a lot of products for splicing single wire, and some for tapping multiple lines, but very little that have 4 insulated/isolated splices. However, when I looked up "terminal block", I was able to find exactly what I wanted for like $25. I could technically use this style for reducing the wire too...but I am not.

 

[sean Buick 76]

The yard and shop both look fantastic! I have serious concrete envy, that is a nice pad!!!

 

[chevyracer5613]

Sean Buick - Thank you, i'll be recovering from them all of 2018

 

[chevyracer5613]

Drove two 8' 1/2" ground rods, a little more than 6' apart. The first 4' or so was actually pretty easy, one of them was able to get driven with a sledge in a few minutes the rest of the way, and the other took like 20 minutes (2 lb sledge).

I also ran an Ethernet cable(100 FT Cat6 Outdoor Dry Gel Filled Direct Burial Ethernet (Self Healing)) in the electrical trench(24+" deep) 6-12" below the surface....but in the spring I plan to bring in another few inches of dirt and soil. At the previous house I did powerline ethernet adapters that worked well....but for $65 and my trench still being open, i figured why not.

 

[drivesitfar]

Chevy: BEE CAREFUL when wiring up your new shop, but i like doing that sort of stuff myself too cause i just changed an outlet that i paid an electrician to put in about 25 years ago and it took me forever to see how he wired a double switch.

if you do it yourself you only have one person to blame and hopefully you won't have to blame anybody. of course there are still a few electrical jobs i'd pay to have an electrician do cause if you don't do them all the time a wrong method might have a very unhappy ending.

i forgot did you wire your last garage? if so this should be almost mundane and hope you maybe improve on the last time if there was any room to improve.

good luck

I might see you again before the holidays arrive, but if i don't have a MERRY CHRISTMAS and congrats on selling your old home, buying your new home and getting your new shop built all in the same year. WELL DONE!!

(or maybe it was 2 years which still deserves a WELL DONE)

 

[chevyracer5613]

Hey Drive,

Thanks for the words of caution . I can't stand paying people for jobs that I can do....because apparently I don't value my time as much as they value theirs lol.

I did most, not all, of my previous barn myself. As an engineer, I have done way too much research to ensure that all of my inspections will go smooth and (for general safety) is why I am indeed having all of my inspection setup.

The short version of key points for my build, 4 wire from a sub panel in the house that does not have the neutral and ground bounded, then at the barn the neutral and ground are not bonded again but the ground will be connected to my ground rods. If I had known about a UFER ground before hand, I would of had that done to simplify not having to install ground rods (potentially).

Thank you! This has been a crazy year, yes less than a year (almost half a year really) to close on the old, move into the new, build the barn and hopefully have everything moved over by the end of the year.....my bank account is not happy but I will be once I am settled in

Merry Christmas to you as well!

 

[drivesitfar]

Chevy: remind me later and i'll get you a few pictures of the curved sidewalks we poured with the trex as forms if you are interested.

yep i can imagine it might cost a few bucks to move and build another shop, but hope your new job will pick up some of that. also hope you also found some great neighbors cause it's not easy moving into a new area and getting that piece of the puzzle right the first time.

cheers

 

[chevyracer5613]

So I was trying to determine if I could save some money and run 3/4" inside the house and to the barn, then drop to 1/2" inside the barn. Considering the heater i'll likely use can accept a good pressure drop, I could likely get away with 1/2", but 3/4" is a better bet, follows conventional wisdom and potentially allows for a minor upgrade later, if ever needed.

 

[chevyracer5613]

Drive - sounds good, yes work helped out some....but basically I depleted a few years of savings to move here and get the barn built....so now it is rebuild time while still trying to build up the barn, what fun lol. Fortunately, we did get good neighbors, on both sides!

 

[drivesitfar]

Chevy: good neighbors are not easy to find so thankfully it sounds like you might have a few for many years to come while you pay off that cool new home.

MERRY CHRISTMAS and looking forward to see how you ORGANIZE your new shop in 2018.

cheers

 

[chevyracer5613]

So the barn now has power (had to run power to an interior sub panel for the house, then power from that to the barn sub panel). Anyhow, everything works great, just need to schedule the inspection. So far, I only have one socket wired up...but the rest are relatively easy.

I was debating strongly on where to position the outlets and how far to offset them relative to the posts, but since I haven't decided if I am doing all sheet metal, all dry wall or the bottom 3' in sheet metal, I allowed for any of those with careful planning and adjustable boxes

I'll take some pics of the box if I can convince myself to go outside again today (its warmed up to 11 degF, currently).

 

[drivesitfar]

Chevy: since you have power to your new shop i'm guessing lights are not far behind?

what kind of lighting are you going to use?

hope your 2018 maybe isn't quite as busy as your 2017 was, but i hope it is another positive year for you and your family.

cheers

 

[chevyracer5613]

Drive:

I forgot to mention, I had my "rough inspections" and everything is golden, i'll still have to do a final but its nice to know everything was done right the first time

Lights are an area that still needs more research.....what I did last time worked (with the lights on the outer edge of the wall rotated 45 deg), but I upgraded the trusses to handle a bottom chord dead load, so I can do almost anything I want. At the last barn, i experimented with T8 (or maybe they were T5...I don't recall now) LED replacements (had to remove ballast from fixture though) and I really enjoyed them being nearly full bright regardless of temperature (not having to "warm up")....so LED's are of interest as long as I can get it setup so they don't flicker (I have a few fixtures inside my home that seems sensitive to flickering with LED's, but part of me wonders about the rusted/clearly overloaded transformer). I will probably do at least two zones (left and right side) but will probably go a little overkill on lights near the eventual lift and working area....as always i want a good value, so hopefully I can figure out what I want to do sooner than later.

Honestly, with this weather, I am pretty tempted to spend $800 and insulated the builder real quick (unfaced batt insulation, r11 walls r30 ceiling) and then install an upgrade version (compared to my last) radiant tube 2 stage heater, that way I actually want to be out there!

2018 will hopefully be reasonable, 2019 will get busy again. 2017 surely has had ups and downs and in the end, perception is reality and things are well. I hope 2018 goes well for you are your family also

BTW I have all of my toys in the barn now, the truck and trailer are sitting outside and the homes attached 3 car garage is packed with my tools that i'll have to transfer over, but it is filling up.

 

[chevyracer5613]

So I think I might have roughly figured out what to do for lighting. I was debating on cans, T8, T5 or LED's. I liked my last experience with LED's but the prices were high, I am happy to see the prices have come down considerably.

The short version is it looks like I should be able to get about 5000+ lumens per fixture using 40W or less.....even better, there is a store local that I should be able to piece things together for just over $30/fixture.

I'll give the epiphany and guidance (through reading the sticky in the lighting section) to "Platonic Solid", who quoted shipping of some items to Brighton which prompted my research to realize one of his recommendations if a few miles away!

His thread is over here https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278420

BTW this also came after I purchased a fixture from rural king for $30, similar features as a whole but uses 55W instead of 36W....with 10 fixtures or the minor price differences covers itself in a year or two, depending on usage.

 

[chevyracer5613]

So I gave the lighting a bit of thought and I am considering 15 fixtures but placed closely on the areas that I plan to spend time......that should come out to about $500, just under 80,000 lumens @ 540 watts. I am thinking two zones....for primary and secondary work locations, but maybe i'll alternate lights.....dimming would be cool but i don't know that i'll pay up for that, plus if I average 3 hours every day (realistically that is high on average) that is like $90/year.

I am open to opinions?

 

[drivesitfar]

Chevy: I'm guessing you might be maybe a bit low on GARAGE FUNDS, but don't scrimp on the insulation. it might be a little (or a lot) of money upfront, but if you are able to use your garage more and like going out there cause it's not in the DEEP FREEZE that your area can get i'd spend the money.

i'll just sit back and watch and learn about your lighting cause since you just did your other garage not too long ago i bet you've got a pretty good idea of where improvements could be made or what worked.

great news your inspections are done and i hope maybe you get a bit nicer weather cause i'm guessing you are in the minus temps like everybody else back in the midwest now.

cheers

 

[chevyracer5613]

Drive-I think R11 walls and R30 ceiling should be reasonable, considering I have a vapor/air barrier to minimize convection (and the bubble wrap is very slightly reducing thermal bridging...not much likely though). I'll probably do a little more in the ceiling as time passes. Although I am still debating on R19 walls...it'll cost another $200...but maybe

I did go out and buy my lights today, $500, 8x4ft 2 bulb and 2x4ft 4 bulb and then i'll add a little later if I need it. The short version is since I know where i'll be most of the time, it is getting the main amount of light, the shelving gets reasonable but a little less light, and the areas that the cars will sit and not move gets "ok" lighting. I still have to decided if I want to hardwire, surface mount, run a plug etc.....

I also did some quick layouts for electrical. Air lines will run the entire perimeter and loop back to the compressor (which I think i'll keep near the panel...but not 100%)

 

[chevyracer5613]

So effectively, I have 12 more of these to install (yes its laying on the firebird, but you get the idea). Should be fairly bright

 

[chevyracer5613]

Small update, nothing special....so my gas meter states that it is 175 CFH unit.....apparently they can output much more than that though, the gas company for my unit said it'll be good up to 300,000 BTU's.....reading the label for everything in the house plus the barn heater puts me at almost 280,000 BTU's (BTW with like a touch over 6" WC at the heater in the barn, which only needs 5" WC).....so I am good to go without an upgrade

Also, I just realized that I need 84 bags of insulation and my trailer is full of....well other insulation (byproduct XPS). So I am considering renting a Uhaul and grabbing it all soon (Menards has a nice deal)...but I am also getting quotes from a few local people to see if I can save that time to spend wiring the barn.

Lastly, my radiant tube heater is on order...should be here in a week or two. 30' 2 stage (60kbtu on the high side) but it has a stainless insert on the burner side to reduce heat at that section, but that means I get more heat towards the end, this results in a temperature variance of 15% or less from burner to exhaust which was a minor annoyance with my last heater since my workbench was (And is again) near the exhaust, not the burner.

 

[chevyracer5613]

Another small update - gas line (pressure test) passed .....now all I have is final electrical, heater and final building.

Also, I included some learned clarity on my above wiring layout...technically I need to add 14-2 either from each 3 way switch, or since I already have the wire ran as shown...from the first/last fixture of each zone. A slightly better diagram....BTW I am feeding both zones power with a 14-3 wire on a double pole breaker.

Lastly, for now, I hung one of the correct light fixtures, a two bulb LED fixture. in the future it'll be moved to the left (it is plugged into the future heater spot)....but I wanted to see what they looked like semi-installed...I am actually happy overall and look forward to installing the rest, if I get bored, i'll do a night time pic at some point.

I tried rotating and uploading the photos again, but they wont correct themselves...hmm

 

[chevyracer5613]

13 ceiling receptacles are now functional. 1 for a heater, 2 spare and 10 split between 2 zones on 3 way switches. 2 lights installed, 8 more to go

 

[drivesitfar]

Chevy: it looks like you are progressing nicely. with R11 in walls and R30 in ceilings that was about minimum for our new homes here and we never get temps as low as you guys in the upper Midwest. are you re thinking that to add more or do you REALLY THINK that will be enough?

not only will you like going out and working in your garage if it's better insulated in the winter the heat savings should pay for the extra insulation pretty quickly is my guess.

lights look great and good to you hear you passed another inspection.

cheers

 

[chevyracer5613]

Drive, I think R11/R30 is the minimum that would be tolerable, r19 walls would be better and adding more than r30 ceiling over time would be nice too. Since I don't plan to install an AC, meaning i'll only be trying to regulate temps for 1/3 of the year, the cost savings are a little slow...but not bad really.

With insulation, its mostly about the assembly that really matters, preventing air from getting in and touching the insulation makes a huge difference (convection is great than conduction...in general), I have that mostly accomplished (on the walls currently(. Next, controlling vapor is very important...moist insulation (especially fiberglass) does not retain heat well....this is why I will not use a vapor barrier on the interior, or i'll insulate enough to resist moisture build up. The last part is thermal resistance (R value)...higher is better, but a surprising amount of heat is lost through thermal bridging and the perimeter of the concrete, I have the bubble wrap (~R1, rigid insulation would have been better) on the exterior to very slightly help with thermal bridging and the way i'll do the interior walls will help too (and provide a larger cavity, including air gap, for insulation), in addition the concrete perimeter has insulation all around it (I would have been better putting it beneath it also, although I did have extra bubble stuff and did put that down, but again, it is only R1).

The short version, is I hope the building will be semi-tight and will be better insulated that my last. If I can afford to install a higher Rvalue now, I agree I will enjoy the benefits later...hence strongly considering R19 (largest I can reasonably afford) for the walls as the ceiling is easy to update later.

I am actually chatting with a guy about more scrap XPS, depending on his price, I might go that route instead of fiberglass....it has additional benefits also...but it does come down to money. If I were living in it, or I was going to cool it, i'd budget more money but I have a finite budget....and the cost jumps up a lot to insulate more than R19 for the walls!

 

[drivesitfar]

Chevy: good to see that you've put the numbers and thought to paper and it's your call and i just wanted to throw out my thinking.

best of luck!!

 

[chevyracer5613]

Drive: I appreciate it, it is a good reminder about insulation. There are two general truths about a barn, 2. build as big of a barn as you can afford. 2. spend as much as you can on insulation. Of course followed by, having too many electrical outlets to allow for future expansion

 

[chevyracer5613]

Progress has slowed a little bit, my heater arrives next week though.

I have finished all of the 120v wiring, except one outside outlet and light...oh and one interior "night light". So that is 7 duplexes on the wall, 3 quads on the wall, 2 sets of 3 gang switchs (2 in each set is a 3 way switch), one exterior outlet and light, one attic outlet, 12 (give or take) outlets on the ceiling (1 of which is dedicated for the heater).

I still have to run 220v for the welder, air compressor and lift...then hopefully done wiring for a while.

At some point I will run air lines, the same way as last time (rapid air) in a loop around the building with a few drops.....still debating if I want to run speaker wire or just enjoy a bluetooth speak.

Side note about my lights, I like the fixtures OK, the bulbs are great though...a little pricier than some of the other ($7/each) but they basically work in any fixture, even if it has a ballast, so I replaced a few inside my home also. If I had spent a little more time and understood them a little more, I would have hunted craigslist for old T8 fixture, removed the ballast myself and saved some coin but I still got a reasonable deal for how bright everything is.

Oh, the "insure" connectors are great, I just tried them and definitely recommend them...what else, automatic (spring loaded) strippers work great to remove the outer sheathing from wire too=a lot of time savings. Gripple cables/adjusters are awesome and contrary to recommendations, I found only one (not two) per fixtures works great.

Lastly, I got caught up on another project, making a new computer table (3/4 plywood birch veneer)....ok another lastly, for Christmas the Wife got me a thread/nut/bolt checker that I have been wanting for a while, it came in handy when my exterior lights only came with one(not two) of the nuts needed to secure them

 

[chevyracer5613]

Heater is hung (still have to finish exhaust, connect the gas and electric, wire Tstat) and I purchased the Rapiair kit again to run the airlines

 

[drivesitfar]

Chevy: with heat i bet the progress will be amazing now. I also think i need to buy one of those nut and bolt checkers as i GET ORGANIZED. speaking of which i'd love to have you post on my thread as I attempt to get my STUFF ORGANIZED so that i can actually find something when i need it. the link is in my sig line. i have a few DIY projects too that I've done or plan to do that might help you as you get to working more on the house and grounds around your cool new home.

keep up the great work!!

 

[chevyracer5613]

Hey Drive,

i'll certainly take a look through your thread....getting organized (and planning well from the start) makes a huge difference to productivity and enjoyment....something I am still learning

Yes, the thread checker is awesome...I almost look forward to sorting my drawers full of random nuts and bolts!

Heater is installed and functioning, this one is a slight upgrade over the last one and I can already tell a difference. I am not sure why, but it seems quieter (although these are inherently quiet). The heat beneath the burner is not nearly as hot as it used to be and as such the end of the exhaust does actually have more heat (which is near my work station)...I look forward to determining if it is indeed 15% as advertised

I have attached a thermal image after about 15 minutes of the heater running, it is like mid 40's F peak temp today.

 

[sean Buick 76]

Looking awesome.

 

[chevyracer5613]

Sean- Thank!

All but two lights are installed.....its seems reasonably bright to me
In all reality, I am pretty impressed how far out the light spreads on these bulb. I don't even have the lights spaced perfectly to my plans (still debating on a few locations)...but it works well....although I am kind of wishing I had done dimmers instead of zones...or ideally both....but oh well.

 

[drivesitfar]

Chevy: just curious where all your vehicles were while you moved and were building your new shop? looks like they are all at home now.

 

[chevyracer5613]

Drive- I rented half of a 28x80 barn about 20 minutes away....the price was reasonable but I am happy to not have to pay it anymore .......the rest of my "stuff" is packed into the 3 car attached garage at the house, not looking forward to moving it all over but I am looking forward to it getting over there lol