Left Over Lumber... Mine, Right?

[justanengineer]

JMO but legality is irrelevent bc arguing over extra "freebies" is beyond silly. You wanted a building for $XXk and got it, hopefully it met your expectations. Arguing with the contractors about extras is simply making you look like a ****, reminds me of most of the purchasing morons I've seen laid off. The worst thing you can do is earn the reputation as a PITA customer, folks talk and the trade world in any given area really is a small one. Given that you hired someone to assemble a small kit building I'd reckon you or your family is going to need additional hired work down the line, best of luck not paying top dollar for anything now.

 

[signcrafter]

Who did you write the check to? Lester buildings or the builder? Did you order the building package yourself or did the builder order it and pay Lester for it?

If you called and ordered the building package and paid for it in full directly to the manufacturer then the building materials are yours. This would mean the contractor just supplied the labor.

If the builder was the one that ordered the package and paid the manufacturer and charged you a xxxxx.** dollars to supply the material and labor to give you a building then it is his.

Let's look at this from a different point of view now and the answer to this will most likely determine the answer to your question. If the builder needed more lumber or nails or whatever material who would be responsible for paying for those extra materials?

 

[mike_dmt]

So, If we saw the wording of the contract somewhere in the threads, I missed it.

I'm just curious what a considerable amount of leftover lumber is. Are we talking a serious pile of wood, or a handful of boards.

At the same time, without seeing the contract, I agree that it sounds like you ordered and paid for the lumber package, and had it delivered.

It also sounded like the GC is simply there to provide labor. In HIS bid should be the consumables, his saw blades, his tools or equipment rentals, etc....

Now, to me, it seems that the leftover lumber is yours.

Here's a scenario: If I ordered and bought enough siding to side my detached shop, as well as my house, and paid a GC to side only my shop, would he be entitled to the leftovers?

Nope. So, unless the contract with the GC states otherwise, it's your material.

 

[hh76]

Who did you write the check to? Lester buildings or the builder? Did you order the building package yourself or did the builder order it and pay Lester for it?

If you called and ordered the building package and paid for it in full directly to the manufacturer then the building materials are yours. This would mean the contractor just supplied the labor.

If the builder was the one that ordered the package and paid the manufacturer and charged you a xxxxx.** dollars to supply the material and labor to give you a building then it is his.

Let's look at this from a different point of view now and the answer to this will most likely determine the answer to your question. If the builder needed more lumber or nails or whatever material who would be responsible for paying for those extra materials?

Not necessarily.

Even If you paid an invoice to the manufacturer directly, it could have been for "materials to build 40x60 building" , which would mean extras were not yours.

They may have a contract with the gc which deals with leftovers, that way he isn't leaving a bunch of scraps around for the customer to deal with.

Again, need to read the fine print of the contract.

 

[lakeroadster]

Sounds like opinions vary quite a bit.

I'm surprised some folks think I am a "****" and a "Pain In The *** Customer" for even thinking the material is mine.

Contract Clearly States (exact wording is as follows):

Inclusions / Exclusions:
Includes Lester Building Material Package​

So, If we saw the wording of the contract somewhere in the threads, I missed it.

Pretty clear to me.. "includes material package."

 

[hh76]

Pretty clear to me.. "includes material package."

Do they further define "material package" anywhere?

 

[signcrafter]

Sounds like opinions vary quite a bit.

I'm surprised some folks think I am a "****" and a "Pain In The *** Customer" for even thinking the material is mine.





Pretty clear to me.. "includes material package."

Who did you write the check to for materials, the builder or the building supplier?

And, who was responsible for paying for materials if you ended up needing more? You or the builder? If you ran out of nails and needed another box who would have to pay for it?

 

[mike_dmt]

I wouldn't take it personally lakeroadster.

I think it's just a combination of contractors who HAVE had to deal with customers who were a pain, and homeowners who don't really know all of what the contractors need to bid into a job.

It's like anything. It's extremely easy for misunderstandings to escalate.

 

[lakeroadster]

The signed contract is with both the manufacturer and the GC.

The GC has a computer program supplied by the manufacturer. The GC supplies tools, labor and oversees sub-contractors. Quality and quantity of materials is the responsibility of the manufacturer, not the GC.

The manufacturer engineers, designs, orders material, loads the truck at their facility, and shipped 1 semi load of materials from Illinois to the job site at my home in Colorado.

The first time the GC saw the "material package" was when it arrived at my home. He ordered no specific materials for the project.

 

[signcrafter]

The signed contract is with both the manufacturer and the GC.

Again, who was your check made out to? The GC or the manufacturer? Did you order the building kit? Or did the contractor?

Who would pay for materials if you needed something like nails? Would you expect the GC to cover any extra material costs? Or would you supply them?

While your contract will be the deciding factor these questions will give a pretty good idea.

 

[lakeroadster]

Do they further define "material package" anywhere?

No... It's a form, they check the boxes that are applicable.

 

[hh76]

No... It's a form, they check the boxes that are applicable.

Then, it's unclear.

"Material package" may mean only the materials needed to build the shop, not any excess that was sent to cover flawed lumber or lost parts.

"Material package" may also be a specific materials list that you paid for, which would would lead me to believe excess was yours.

If it's not covered in fine print somewhere, it should be.

 

[Lassen Forge]

If (like what happened last spring) I contracted with a contractor to "rebuild my wall", told him what I wanted, we shook hands, he brought the wood he was going to use then he keeps the overage. That was easy. Sure, I would have loved to have that extra 30 ft. of 2x12 dimensional he brought in (from a demo he had done last year) but it was his wood, not mine. Still, I cried when he loaded it up!

On the other hand, another guy who O bought the wood, he did the repairs (basement in the old house), and then he tried to say the extra was his (and it was more than a few sticks)... I told him to go pound sand. He tried his customary whine of how he was losing money on this job yada yada, but I don't run a charity for contractors. Told him the same thing the guy who did my barn told me - you can have them but I'll have to charge you for them. He told me he "deserved it" after all the good work he did (and his work was glutenated hydrogenated wildcat-scented bull manure) - then I caught his minion loading my wood onto his truck "because the boss told him to".

And if that guy gave me a "bad rep" as a "azz'ole customer" I could care less, as I wouldn't want him or his friends touching my house. I hired a different contractor, and he was outstanding.

 

[Lassen Forge]

The signed contract is with both the manufacturer and the GC.

Quality and quantity of materials is the responsibility of the manufacturer, not the GC.

The manufacturer engineers, designs, orders material, loads the truck at their facility, and shipped 1 semi load of materials from Illinois to the job site at my home in Colorado.

That sounds like your wood. If it all came in the semi from the manufacturer then it sounds like it's your wood.

And like I said (above) there are more than one contractors out there to skin a cat if needed... I live in an EXTREMELY rural area and have no problem hiring contractors if need be. Then again, everyone up here is pretty aboveboard anyway, and something like this wouldn't happen.

 

[readhead]

Are you just wondering if it is yours or has this become an issue?

When I supply a metal building everything that arrives on the truck is the owners. When we get to the end there is always extra screws, bolts etc. I ask if they want it. About half the time they want me to take it away and I put it in my inventory in case we come up short on another job. If we use it on another job I don't charge for it.

 

[Ponchoguy]

It's yours unless you had an agreement to let him have the left-overs. I'd secure it and put it away from his temptation. Just my opinion.

I agree. The contractor that did my grandparents garage over took the garage siding scrap when I explicitly had in the contract that it was supposed to be left behind. Imagine my surprise when I show up there on a Saturday morning to sell it to someone and find it gone!

I did sell what was left to a guy and we split it. I got $50 and the deal was I had to help him load it up (took 20 minutes flat). It was a home run for me.

 

[Ponchoguy]

So we're in the final phases of framing my pole building. There is a considerable amount of left over lumber and the GC is acting like any left over lumber is his.

The building materials came from Nebraska. I made one of the progress payments, a material payment, when the semi load of material arrived at our home.

The GC is merely the local rep for the company. He didn't order any materials for this project nor will he be sending any of it back.

So if anybody is going to keep the left over lumber, joist hangers, etc... it should be the guy that bought the building, right?

Opinions?

Edit: Materials came from Illinois... not Nebraska.

You could always take it from the bill at the end. When he complains tell him, "That's my lumber you're taking there, champ". He'll go your way....

 

[Showkey]

This comes up often in roofing..........contractor orders a couple or more extra squares.......then every 8-10 jobs as freebie 100% material bonus. Easy with black shingles or works better with a shingle return for credit.

 

[glider]

I believe you got your building for x amount of dollars. That material is the contractors. Just my 2 cents.

 

[KDXSR5]

Sounds like opinions vary quite a bit.

I think you are seeing such a large variety of answers because you have people who deal with construction contracts and/or work in the trades giving you advice in the same thread that Joe Blow homeowner is giving you advice. That's the beauty of the internet, I suppose. People who are not familiar with contract documents and the whole Supplier/GC/Owner/Subs equation are not going to see this the same way as someone who deals with them regularly. That is why I stated in my first reply that your best bet is to read the contract documents.

I am still not real clear on if you paid the supplier and the GC seperately or not. Let me run through a few scenarios.

If you bought the building supplies in one contract (a material contract), and have a completely seperate contract with the builder (building contract), then you own the left over supplies. This would also make you responsible if the builder had needed any additional supplies during construction unless the seperate contract you made with him makes him responsible for such supplies. It's all in how the contract is written.

If you paid the supplier for the materials (material contract) and they reccomended a GC that you then paid for through the supplier (building contract), then things get murky and a well written contract should address issues like this. It could go either way depending on the wording. You still have two seperate contracts, but they are getting paid through the same entity. In this case, I think you would still own the leftovers, barring the contract documents don't read otherwise.

If your contract with the supplier includes a GC to assemble the building, and you paid to have a completed building including the materials needed and the labor to complete the building (lump sum contract including both material and building contracts in one), then the material does not belong to you. It doesnt matter if you provided material money and progress payments or paid in one large lump, it doesn't belong to you because that is not the type of contract you signed. It belongs to either the supplier or the GC depending on their contract, but either way it is not yours unless their contract specifically states to give it to you.

These are just three possible scenarios, and there are several others that could have happened. Remember, anytime contracts are written, they are written in favor of the person writing it. Also, sometimes things are left vague on purpose. Without reading yours fully, it is hard to tell over the Internet what belongs to whom.

The GC may end up just giving you the extras, because it doesn't really sound like there is that much left over, relatively speaking. It may be easier to just cut his losses and let you have at it then fight for a grand or two of extra supplies.

Unfortunately, as the owner, you need to do your due diligence to not get screwed. Right or wrong, that is the way it is. I hate it just as much as the next guy, but it is what it is. Thank the cheats and the lawyers of this world, haha. Everyone involved in any contract needs to be careful and read it it front to back and back to front several times to ensure that it is as fair as it can be for all parties involved.

Sorry this is such a long post, I will be done after this one and just wait to see what ends up happening. It is hard to describe different types of contract scenarios over the Internet and have a meaningful discussion. Keep us updated and let us know how it turns out.

 

[creativecars]

Sounds like opinions vary quite a bit.

I'm surprised some folks think I am a "****" and a "Pain In The *** Customer" for even thinking the material is mine.





Pretty clear to me.. "includes material package."

No need for names... You paid for a truck load of materials and some people want to side with a thief GC type. I would be proud to be a "**** or PITA", to thief, they don't need my money and I would spread the word far and wide about their actions. That makes more of a gap between the good GC's and the bad, it is getting harder and harder to find the good.

 

[CTyankee]

1. You paid for the material to build your barn.

2. The company that you bought the material from screwed up and sent extra/wrong material.

3. In that regard, you technically didn't pay for the leftover material either.

4. The GC who did the work knows about 1, 2, and 3 and figures he's got just as much right to it as you...and hopes you don't care.

5. The only one with any right to the material is the company that sent it to you.

6. If they don't want it...It was delivered to you and it's on your property. So it's your material. Tell the CG to keep his F'ing hands off of it.

7. You're welcome..

 

[rayra]

You bought it, it's yours. He might be accustomed to 'gleaning' other peoples' castoff property, but he has no right to it. Do with it as you see fit. And make damned sure your intent is communicated to him before it starts disappearing. And follow up to see it isn't deliberately damaged once he knows he's not getting it.


had a similar problem with our kitchen remodel a couple years ago. Did almost all the work myself. But we picked and paid for a couple stone slabs for the countertops. Had a heck of a time with the vendor getting them cut and fashioned for us. First team failed appointments, return calls, they dumped them and a 2nd team brought in. had trouble getting the stone from the first team. Then met the 2nd team planned the layout of the cuts on the slabs to best visual appeal. It was a sedimentary rock, lots of pattern / veining. Two slabs for the sizes of counters we needed (3 total) but we only used about 70% of the stone. installers arrive, things go well enough. But where are my offcuts? Paid big money for that stone, and had plans for the leftovers for an outdoor kitchen counter. Apparently the 2nd team had plans for it too. Their workshop 'showroom' featured a lot of little stone-topped side and cafe tables. Told the team lead I wanted it. No habla. Called the company mgmt, the vendor mgmt. Slow or no callbacks. I drove right down to their industrial district workshop and demanded my property. They weren't happy, but they dug it out of their supply stacks.

eta - I see the argument is about paying for services and materials separately and just paying for the whole project. We bought our stone. It was then subcontracted for install, a separate charge. All that stone was ours. If I'd paid one fee for new countertops, I'd see the argument that we got what we paid for and the surplus was theirs.

 

[rayra]

Not even close to true unless the material was bid and invoiced separately.
Sometimes when I do a job I'll order an extra ** sacks of concrete or even an extra 50 pieces of rebar to be delivered to the job in case I run short. No need to wait. It's right there.
If I tell you I'm going to T&G a porch ceiling and order 50 extra boards to be able to select the best, the rest go home with me.Your job is complete. That's what you paid for.
Ya want the F*&^%in' saw blades too since I'm done ? Drill bits ? Left over nails out of the 50 lb box ?

To think otherwise is just goofy !

If you billed me for them as supply line items, YES. If it's built into your overhead rate as it should be, then No.
I mean if you are having me pay the vendor directly for the materials and equipment, then the leftovers are mine, not yours.
If you give me a contract-estimate with 'Project total cost $x" and I pay YOU for the whole project, the remnants are yours.

 

[rayra]

Then, it's unclear.

"Material package" may mean only the materials needed to build the shop, not any excess that was sent to cover flawed lumber or lost parts.

"Material package" may also be a specific materials list that you paid for, which would would lead me to believe excess was yours.

If it's not covered in fine print somewhere, it should be.

Boy you are really splitting hairs and only in favor of your argument. The OP paid for the entire 'package'. That plainly infers the WHOLE package. Not 'only the stuff you actually use up', which is what you are essentially arguing. That's ludicrous.

If his contract spells out the duties and responsibilities and says nothing about 'rights' - which is again the entitlement argument you are making - then once again the materials belong to the OP.

 

[BillK]

Lake,
You still haven't answered this question unless I missed your answer:

Again, who was your check made out to? The GC or the manufacturer? Did you order the building kit? Or did the contractor?

 

[JimVonBaden]

You sound like the carpenter I hired who ordered multiple new blades for his compound miter saw, table saw, skilsaw, sawzallsaw, jigsaw, rotozip, multi-tool, utility knife- $700+ - on the first lumber order. He was doing a small master bedroom/bath remodel. I called BS. Found out later he had a habit of doing this, then returning most of it after the job was finished.

If it gets used on my project, I'll gladly pay for it. If you're going to grossly over-order and then expect to keep the "leftovers" then we are going to have a problem. A few leftover boards, a couple sticks of rebar-no problem; 50 extra- no way.

 

[Kaizen]

A few 2x4s or a couple extra light fixtures on a big project imo is ok for a contractor to keep. However deliberately ordering more supplies to just resell or use on another project where the contractor will charge that customer is not right.
there is a roofer up the street from me and he oders half a pallet extra on his jobs and then resells it to people doing their own roofs off craigslist. I knew he was doing that and then he came by to quote me a "special" price if I chose that color. thievery imo

for the op. I'd burn every last piece of the wood.

 

[HoosierMark]

You bought a materials package to build the building you wanted based upon certain specifications. That was done. I would bet nowhere in the contract does it say they cannot ship extra materials to the job site. They did not sell you materials, they sold you a building to be constructed by them. They can send as much material to the site as they want but that does not make it yours. If they were short, they would bring more, if they are over they take it with them. What happens to it is between the supplier and the contractor, not you. It may be the company policy that they send extras to certain jobs and then short a load later, far fetched perhaps but it is their business plan not yours. Unless you specified you were paying for X pieces of wood, it is not yours to keep. Based upon your logic, if the materials package was short, you should pay for more materials. You apparently want to hold them to the idea that whatever is in the material package is yours. Or perhaps if they left the doors off the shipment, they should just go home and leave them off. It is their package, not yours.

 

[493 scamp]

My pole barn ordered from DIY polebarns and put up by the preferred builder was shipped with extra material Used to hold posts level overnight and left over screws and metal were left on my site. They did ask me about where to put the burnable trash but left the other materials neatly stacked when they left.

 

[Playwme]

You bought a materials package to build the building you wanted based upon certain specifications. That was done. I would bet nowhere in the contract does it say they cannot ship extra materials to the job site. They did not sell you materials, they sold you a building to be constructed by them. They can send as much material to the site as they want but that does not make it yours. If they were short, they would bring more, if they are over they take it with them. What happens to it is between the supplier and the contractor, not you. It may be the company policy that they send extras to certain jobs and then short a load later, far fetched perhaps but it is their business plan not yours. Unless you specified you were paying for X pieces of wood, it is not yours to keep. Based upon your logic, if the materials package was short, you should pay for more materials. You apparently want to hold them to the idea that whatever is in the material package is yours. Or perhaps if they left the doors off the shipment, they should just go home and leave them off. It is their package, not yours.

I think I agree with this as a very logical and thought out post. I assume that you basically bought a "Barn Kit". This means all the materials required to build the barn to your design. If they include extra lengths to ensure the builder doesn't run short then that's their prerogative.
There is the flip side where I'm not entirely sure that the leftovers should belong to the GC either. This kind of arrangement really needs to be made beforehand. Obviously if someone was quoting a job and over quote the hell out the materials list then a customer should expect to keep the leftovers.

I generally charge for labour and materials (smaller jobs but still similar). I try my best to minimise wastage but in the occasions where i need to ensure full lengths then I explain that there may be leftovers. Customer has paid for it so I give them first right. If they dont want it an its larger amounts then I'll deduct some off my labour.

If I were you I'd call the barn supplier and ask them. GC is no doubt trying to reclaim back some the redo costs for getting the mini excavator back, or did you get charged extra for that?

 

[hh76]

Boy you are really splitting hairs and only in favor of your argument. The OP paid for the entire 'package'. That plainly infers the WHOLE package. Not 'only the stuff you actually use up', which is what you are essentially arguing. That's ludicrous.

If his contract spells out the duties and responsibilities and says nothing about 'rights' - which is again the entitlement argument you are making - then once again the materials belong to the OP.

Those split hairs are what should be spelled out in the fine print. Either no fine print was provided to the OP, or he isn't providing them to us.

 

[lakeroadster]

Lake,
You still haven't answered this question unless I missed your answer:

Again, who was your check made out to? The GC or the manufacturer? Did you order the building kit? Or did the contractor?

The GC is the Rep. for the manufacturer. The manufacturer requires the buyer to pay the GC.... it's not an option.

 

[creativecars]

I am amazed this type of behavior is accepted as being professional??

Apparently half the people here feel it is standard business practices for someone else to pay for their mistakes or be ok with ordering extra things they need for every job.

I guess it would be ok for the tech who needed to replace a clutch could get on the SO truck, buy the tools he did not have to do the job and bill it to the customer. Or the tire guy could order in some extras, just in case. If you need a fender painted do you feel it is ok to pay for a gallon of paint and clear, when quarts would do?

No, you would be pissed off. Why is this acceptable in the construction industry?

 

[NJ Marty]

A few people have been asking who you wrote out the check to.

 

[BillK]

The GC is the Rep. for the manufacturer. The manufacturer requires the buyer to pay the GC.... it's not an option.

If that is the case then I do not think you would be entitled to the extra material. If you contract to have a house built and there is left over material, do you get to keep it ? I don't think so.

I would say that the material belongs to the contractor in this case. You basically are paying for a completed building and that's all you get.

By the way, not saying this to be a jerk or combative, that's just the way I would interpret this particular transaction. If you had written a check to the building manufacturer for the material package, then yes it would be yours.

Just my opinion

 

[BFBOB]

had a similar problem with our kitchen remodel a couple years ago. Did almost all the work myself. But we picked and paid for a couple stone slabs for the countertops. Had a heck of a time with the vendor getting them cut and fashioned for us. First team failed appointments, return calls, they dumped them and a 2nd team brought in. had trouble getting the stone from the first team. Then met the 2nd team planned the layout of the cuts on the slabs to best visual appeal. It was a sedimentary rock, lots of pattern / veining. Two slabs for the sizes of counters we needed (3 total) but we only used about 70% of the stone. installers arrive, things go well enough. But where are my offcuts? Paid big money for that stone, and had plans for the leftovers for an outdoor kitchen counter. Apparently the 2nd team had plans for it too. Their workshop 'showroom' featured a lot of little stone-topped side and cafe tables. Told the team lead I wanted it. No habla. Called the company mgmt, the vendor mgmt. Slow or no callbacks. I drove right down to their industrial district workshop and demanded my property. They weren't happy, but they dug it out of their supply stacks.

Interesting. My wife and I bought some marble slabs at an auction, kept them for several years until we came up with a suitable use for them. Took them to a stone company to have them cut and edged. When we went to pick up the cut pieces, there, neatly stacked in a box were all the offcuts. ALL of them. At the time it hadn't occurred to us to make sure we got them (we did want them), and obviously, hadn't occurred to the stone co. to keep them. Sometimes things work out in spite of it all.

I hope the OP's situation works out too.

 

[signcrafter]

The GC is the Rep. for the manufacturer. The manufacturer requires the buyer to pay the GC.... it's not an option.

Thank you for finally answering one of the questions.

Next question, Did you sign a contract for material to build a shed at an agreed upon price? Or did you sign a contract for an itemized list of materials for a price?

If your contract was for a shed to be built then you got what you paid for. If it was an itemized list of materials then the leftovers most likely are yours.

Another question you keep avoiding is IF you needed extra materials like nails or wood who would you expect to pay for it? Contractor or you?

 

[Hpozzuoli]

Typically I take all left over materials. I bid jobs as "all inclusive" as much as possible. Occasionally I get someone who bought a pallet of hardwood flooring so any left overs belongs to them. If I order and pay for the materials they are mine. If the HO bought the materials on their own without me helping then they are the HO's and I would keep them separate from mine.

 

[ddawg16]

I recall some recent discussions where material was delivered to a job site....and then something happened where the contractor had to stop work.

If the contractor tried to remove the material, he was in trouble. Once the material was on site....it stayed on site.