Left Over Lumber... Mine, Right?

[Git]

I think if it is "installed" it stays, any other 'leftovers' usually go with the contractor

If for some reason you were short of something (2x12's etc) would the contractor charge you extra to get and get them?

If you order a hamburger at McDonalds and tell them to hold the pickles - do you expect a discount or to keep the pickles? (you bought a hamburger, not the ingredients)

Ever hear of ordering an extra 10% just in case?

similar discussion from a contractor's point of view:
http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/left-over-materials-63161/

 

[James-W]

The building materials came from Nebraska. I made one of the progress payments, a material payment, when the semi load of material arrived at our home.

The GC is merely the local rep for the company. He didn't order any materials for this project nor will he be sending any of it back.

I am confused again. The above is what you said in your opening post. This leads me to believe that you ordered the kit yourself right from the manufacturer and had it sent to your job site. You paid for the kit, or at least part of the kit, at the time it was delivered. Then you contacted the general contractor, who happens to also be a rep for the company from which you bought the kit. You hired the general contractor to put up the building rather than doing it yourself because you lacked the expertise, or didn't have the time, or maybe you just didn't want to do it yourself. But for whatever the reasons you decided to have the general contractor do the job.

The GC is the Rep. for the manufacturer. The manufacturer requires the buyer to pay the GC.... it's not an option.

Now you are saying you are required to pay the general contractor, but you don't say exactly what it is you are paying him for. Are you paying him for materials, or are you paying him for labor, or is the payment for BOTH? I was under the impression, from the things you have been saying, that you had purchased the materials and the only thing the general contractor was doing was supplying labor to put up the building. If I am wrong on this please let me know. Who pays for the materials and how the project was contracted makes a difference as to who gets to keep the materials in the end.

 

[Ironhorse74]

I had a lumber yard estimate the materials. I paidfor them. Used or not they are mine

Brad

 

[Git]

It sound like someone is mincing words

"the manufacturer requires the buyer to pay the GC.... it's not an option."

Does the manufacturer actually sell to the general public? (yes or no)

 

[lakeroadster]

Thank you for finally answering one of the questions.

Next question, Did you sign a contract for material to build a shed at an agreed upon price? Or did you sign a contract for an itemized list of materials for a price?

If your contract was for a shed to be built then you got what you paid for. If it was an itemized list of materials then the leftovers most likely are yours.

Another question you keep avoiding is IF you needed extra materials like nails or wood who would you expect to pay for it? Contractor or you?

A shed... who's building a shed?

With respect to materials, the contractor has done nothing but hand my money to the manufacturer. That is the only way this manufacturer does business.

I bought a barn, from a company that builds barns, through the Rep. that sells their barns.

Why would I buy extra materials when I signed a contract stating the manufacturer was supplying me, the buyer, with a material package?

The manufacturer sent everything that was needed, and then some. The only materials the GC bought was some extra 2 x 8's, 'cause he instructed his guys to cut 2 x 6's in error.

Now, let me ask you a question: Are you a business owner, or a contractor, or both?

 

[lakeroadster]

It sound like someone is mincing words

"the manufacturer requires the buyer to pay the GC.... it's not an option."

Does the manufacturer actually sell to the general public? (yes or no)

No.....

 

[csp]

The GC is the Rep. for the manufacturer. The manufacturer requires the buyer to pay the GC.... it's not an option.

Does that mean that the check was made payable to the GC or was it made payable to Lester and just handed to the GC?

BTW, many pole buildings are referred to as sheds, as in machinery or equipment sheds. I have two of them that are 60'x100' but we still call them sheds. In my world a barn is for animal shelter.

 

[Git]

http://www.lesterbuildings.com/

"Each Lester Building is a custom building based on the customer’s location and needs. All planning, pricing and construction services are provided by your local Lester Dealer or Lester Representative"

Q. Why can’t I talk to someone from the main office to get a price?
A. All of our Dealers / Representatives live in the sales territory they cover. They're eager to develop a personal relationship with you and find out what’s important to you as you move forward.

 

[cdestuck]

What a waste of 5 pages of worthless opinions. They amount to zero. I ya want them so bad and GC wants them so bad, courts the only answer that matters

 

[Inabox85]

Its a tough question. On a much smaller scale I just got a new metal cabinet for my gararge. It came with a hardware kit full if screws. There was one bag that had one extra of each screw type. Incase one got lost or what not. I get to keep extras. But I'm not sure if this is the same principle.

 

[keelan]

Can you get a bill of materials from the manufacturer? Ignoring stuff that was shipped out of error, anything that is on that bill of materials that wasn't used in your barn should be yours. Anything else belongs to the manufacturer, and it's between them and the GC to sort out.

 

[readhead]

Well now we have the whole story. I agree with Keelan. That is exactly how we would handle a metal building project.

Now that we are getting the whole story, how much material are you actually talking about? Does the building match the plans? Was everything installed? Was extra material shipped for temp bracing?

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

I am a general contractor.

I have read the entire post and no where have you clearly stated how everything was purchased only a vague comments like, "The GC is the Rep. for the manufacturer. The manufacturer requires the buyer to pay the GC.... it's not an option." and you also stated that the pole barn company does not sell to the general public. Therefore I think it is fair to say that you purchased everything through your general contractor. It also means nothing that you made a materials payment to the manufacturer, you probably did so in lieu of a payment to the general contractor.

If this is the case, you have no rights to the materials. Sorry.

I have had many cases where there was extra materials once the job was completed. Some customers want the extras and some don't. My profit margins are already pretty low with labor, insurance, workers comp, and the occasional screw ups so if there are significant extras I will generally return them. However if it is a few boards and leaving them will make my client happy, sure I will leave them. ...and no I do not buy extra **** so I can return it once the job is over to make a profit! I wouldn't have any customers if I pulled that nonsense, besides who has the time for that?

 

[signcrafter]

A shed... who's building a shed?

With respect to materials, the contractor has done nothing but hand my money to the manufacturer. That is the only way this manufacturer does business.

I bought a barn, from a company that builds barns, through the Rep. that sells their barns.

Why would I buy extra materials when I signed a contract stating the manufacturer was supplying me, the buyer, with a material package?

The manufacturer sent everything that was needed, and then some. The only materials the GC bought was some extra 2 x 8's, 'cause he instructed his guys to cut 2 x 6's in error.

Now, let me ask you a question: Are you a business owner, or a contractor, or both?

The material is not yours. You paid to have a barn put up and you got that. When building something like that it isn't like legos where they send the exact amount of each piece needed and instructions. They will send a little extra.

My question of who would buy any extra material that may be needed was trying to get to the bottom of this since you still haven't answered half the questions people have asked you. For some reason your answers are very vague. If you bought an itemized list of materials then you paid for those materials. And if for some reason you needed more materials then you would have to provide them. And you could keep the leftovers. But if you paid for a barn to be built then you got what you paid for. And if they needed more materials to finish they would supply them without sending you an extra bill. Then the leftovers aren't yours. Think about this for a second. From your answers it sounds like you didn't buy each individual piece of material, you bought a barn to be built and you got that.

Another question that will help answer who's material it is would be could you return the leftover material for a refund? I understand it would be silly to pay the shipping to return it. But ignoring that if you drove the material back to manufacturer would they give you a check for a refund?

Honestly you said you were happy with the building. I don't remember if you said exactly what was left but I think you said something like 50 two by fours. So we are talking about what,150 bucks here?

 

[lakeroadster]

Now, let me ask you a question: Are you a business owner, or a contractor, or both?

For some reason your answers are very vague.

......

 

[signcrafter]

......

I'm neither, not that it makes any difference. And not sure why I should even answer since you can't take the time to put all the facts out here and answer the questions I asked.

Now, if you want to get a real answer why don't you answer the other questions that I asked. As mentioned by many posters you aren't sharing all the details for some reason. If you want a better answer then give all the details and answer the questions I asked.

If all you want is to hear that the material should be yours then you already got that from some people, even though only you know all the details of the contract.

 

[lakeroadster]

I'm neither, not that it makes any difference. And not sure why I should even answer since you can't take the time to put all the facts out here and answer the questions I asked.

Now, if you want to get a real answer why don't you answer the other questions that I asked. As mentioned by many posters you aren't sharing all the details for some reason. If you want a better answer then give all the details and answer the questions I asked.

If all you want is to hear that the material should be yours then you already got that from some people, even though only you know all the details of the contract.

The contract is very simple, re-read the thread... the answers are there.

 

[signcrafter]

The contract is very simple, re-read the thread... the answers are there.

I've read the whole thread. You have not answered questions by myself or others that would give a very good clue as to who the materials belong to. Since the contract is so simple then it should be simple for you to answer these questions but you won't answer them for some odd reason.

Based on that and what you have said the leftover materials are the contractors. You wrote a check to him for materials and labor for a pole barn. Which you received. You are entitled to nothing more. You didn't pay for *** amount of lumber, you paid for a pole barn. You got what you paid for.

 

[lakeroadster]

...You didn't pay for *** amount of lumber, you paid for a pole barn. You got what you paid for.

Great, thanks. Have a nice day.

 

[404]

Why is this acceptable in the construction industry?

It is easier to hide what is going on.

Most people only build one structure in a lifetime. So they don't think everything through.

Another thing that can happen is that material is delivered and billed to site A by the lumber yard, then the contractor moves it to site B and uses it there.

 

[404]

Sounds like opinions vary quite a bit.

I'm surprised some folks think I am a "****" and a "Pain In The *** Customer" for even thinking the material is mine.

Pretty clear to me.. "includes material package."

These are the same people who want your materials.

 

[Kevkx125]

When I had my pole barn built they left all leftovers, I kept the wood and scraped the rest.

 

[signcrafter]

Great, thanks. Have a nice day.

You're welcome. Not sure why it took 6 pages to get to the bottom of this. If you would have answered the questions on page one it would have been easy to figure out. Still haven't answered them. But that's OK.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

My customers own all the materials, and they pay for all the materials. If I provide materials, they must pay me for the materials I provide, or replenish those materials.

But I contract for labor, and my contract clearly states that they will pay for all materials, or else get charged a markup fee.

If I contracted for the end product, all they would own would be the end product, and all they would pay would be the contracted price, plus extras. Any materials I bought would be mine, if they were left over from the project.

If they are paying a contract price for a product, all they get is the product. If they are paying for extras, and they paid for those materials separately, they get to keep those materials, because they paid for them, and not a contracted price for the extra product.

My contract is pages long. It tells a client what they will get from me, how I will provide it, and what they will provide for me in return, and how they will provide it. Any alterations to the contract must be made before the document is signed.

Much of my contract is there to protect me, BTW. I worked for a lot of lawyers, and believe me, if it isn't on paper, you are screwed when you are swimming with the sharks.

 

[Git]

I think there are several great examples in the other thread I linked to

A landscape contractor buys landscape cloth by the 3,000 sq ft roll - because he gets a better deal that way. He takes the roll to his client's job site because he is going to use 250 sq feet off of it. Does the client then get to keep the other 2,750 sq ft because it was on the jobsite?

NO

The client got what he paid for and so did you

 

[Keel]

The contract is very simple, re-read the thread... the answers are there.

yup it is, you paid a g.c. to build you x by x by x barn.. the company that supplies the "kit" sent the truck load of supplies,
the g.c. built it..

you own the built barn, and nothing else.. PERIOD..


you bought the barn kit through the g.c. (vendor rep)

you bought an x by x by x barn..

it is simple, you just are not getting it..
you bought and paid for a barn.. the price of the kit/barn means you own the supplies it takes to build it, not any extras left over..


you want to know how you'd own the extras
it the company handed you plans and you went to the lumberyard with the supply list and ordered it all, and paid the lumber yard..
you didn't,, you paid a deposit to the barn co. then paid the balance through the vendors dealer rep./g.c

 

[FFRKing]

When I had my 30x50 polebarn built, the contract consisted of 2 pages and a drawing. It had the size, sizes and quantities of windows and doors, insulation, concrete specs and building colors on 1 page. The building specs were outlined on the other page. Any changes we're also noted on the 1st page; different roof pitch, 2x6 gifts, thicker material, etc.
It also stated any leftover material was the property of the builder.
I bought a completed building and that is what I ended up with.

Chris

 

[PugetDude]

Lester Buildings (used to be the pole barn/ag building division of Butler Buildings, once the largest pre-engineered building manufacturer in the US) isn't licensed as a general contractor in all 50 states. Their business model is to have local dealers who are licensed to conduct business in their assigned markets selling and erecting Lester-provided building packages.

Your contract is with your local dealer, not with Lester Buildings. You bought a building from them, not a building kit from Lester. Lester provides their dealers with national advertising, design services, and building packages. The dealers provide Lester with a locally-licensed conduit to local customers.

This model isn't unique to Lester, many building manufacturers operate this way as well. It isn't practical to be licensed as a general contractor in hundreds of local jurisdictions.

So, back to the original question- without seeing the actual contract between you and the local dealer- I'd say that the leftover wood, packaging, dunnage, gable end cuts, flashing off-cuts, screws, nails, hangers etc. should be removed by the dealer "in a workmanlike manner" and the site left as clean as they found it when they arrived.

GC's deliberately over-ordering material they expect to keep at the end of a project is a subject for another thread.... it doesn't sound like that is what happened here. Sorry.

 

[justanengineer]

These are the same people who want your materials.

No, its the opinion of someone who spends a few million annually on prototypes, sets up 1st run production pricing agreements, and has a history of getting prices and deals both professionally and personally so good that few here could comprehend - pro-bono quite often. Btw, the OP himself established he doesnt have any legal right to the material a few pages back since he had one contract.

Ask anybody in ANY trade or business, they're going to add a small percentage to the cost of every job for unforeseen issues, expenses, a good customer's lunch, other "costs of doing business." If they ****** the estimate, the job, or otherwise its a lifesaver, if not its a few bucks that helps lower the cost of the next job. If I order a dozen prototype parts from a fab/machine/other shop, unless its uber pricey/rare they're going to order extra stock, likely full bar/tube lengths/sheets. They're also going to order whatever they need to build special jigs/fixtures and tools to get the job done bc if theyre late customers like me start losing big bucks quickly ($thousands/day a part is late isnt uncommon for me). If they need 70% of a bar or sheet for my job I might not pay for a full bar, but I'd likely pay for at least 80% of it.

From experience, one of the easiest ways to run up the cost of a job is to be a PITA customer, its the #1 reason why there are so many jokes about purchasing depts and homeowners. The truly sad part is that most dont even realize theyre doing so. When I outsource work personally or professionally there's only two things that matter - the job being done correctly and the bottom line. Incidental fees like extra material costs, tooling, etc that are factored in are irrelevent bc 5% on materials doesnt matter in most cases when a ticked tradesman's rate goes from $50/hr to $100/hr on the next job, lead times go from 2 to 12 weeks, and quality drops. The auto industry's famous for this, they call it "cost reduction," the supplier takes 5% off for a year or two then doubles prices while dropping quality to the minimum allowable. Folks gladly argue/beat on businesses over the stupid **** on individual bills not realizing it costs them serious money in the long term, they miss the proverbial forest for the trees. In this case the OP's arguing over (I'd venture a WAG) a few hundred, maybe a grand worth of material on a bill thats tens of thousands. If they offer it great, but if not there's no sense digging into legalities. He might "win" the argument this time, but guaranteed with that attitude he'll lose it several times over long term when he next needs a contractor, or one of this crew go work in a body shop and he needs his car painted, his mower worked on, etc.

 

[Strouty]

This has been a funny read, it always amazes me the threads that tend to polarize us against each other.

My question would be this, did you get the building you paid for?

If yes then the materials that are left over are the contractors, you bought a building not materials.

If you paid the architect to design the building, then went shopping for materials then hired a contractor the materials would be yours.

This of course is based on the minimal facts we have and is also a strong opinion from a contractor.

 

[JimVonBaden]

What a waste of 5 pages of worthless opinions. They amount to zero. I ya want them so bad and GC wants them so bad, courts the only answer that matters

Another "worthless opinion"!

 

[lakeroadster]

.... In this case the OP's arguing over (I'd venture a WAG) a few hundred, maybe a grand worth of material on a bill thats tens of thousands. If they offer it great, but if not there's no sense digging into legalities.

Arguing? I'm not arguing, I merely asked for opinions. Lot's of other folks, such as yourself, are name calling and arguing.

Whatever Lester decides is what will happen, done deal. No lawyers or arguing.

Asking for the overage materials is just plain common sense. I did after all pay for the materials. A penny saved is a penny earned.

So we're in the final phases of framing my pole building. There is a considerable amount of left over lumber and the GC is acting like any left over lumber is his.

The building materials came from Nebraska. I made one of the progress payments, a material payment, when the semi load of material arrived at our home.

The GC is merely the local rep for the company. He didn't order any materials for this project nor will he be sending any of it back.

So if anybody is going to keep the left over lumber, joist hangers, etc... it should be the guy that bought the building, right?

Opinions?

Edit: Materials came from Illinois... not Nebraska.

 

[2CWG]

Lot of strong opinions on the 'extra' material already stated. Regardless of how that lands, make certain that the finished shed is constructed as per Lester Building's design/plan. Materials, frame spacing, joinery, everything.

I've dealt with two GCs in California who tried to cut corners in order to pad their pockets. One tried to use thinner drywall, less than half the insulation and 2x4 rather than 2x6 frame. The other tried to downsize PEX runs by using 1/2 OD rather than 3/4 OD and later tried to skip insulating the hot lines altogether.

In each case, the correct specs were called out in the drawings and BoM. Neither job was lowballed, both were middle-tier bids with solid references. There were also no customer-driven changes once the work began.

I'm sure most contractors are above-board and do quality work even when you're not watching, but I've found it best to inspect everything. Even more critical in spaces that are 'buttoned-up'. Best of luck!

 

[rayra]

What a waste of 5 pages of worthless opinions. They amount to zero. I ya want them so bad and GC wants them so bad, courts the only answer that matters

lol, screw that. Court edicts are increasingly nonsensical and outright outrageous / tyrannical. Our 'justice' system has become at best laughable and at worst destructive. Why would any rational person willingly submit anything to them?

 

[rayra]

Its a tough question. On a much smaller scale I just got a new metal cabinet for my gararge. It came with a hardware kit full if screws. There was one bag that had one extra of each screw type. Incase one got lost or what not. I get to keep extras. But I'm not sure if this is the same principle.

It is, generally. You purchased that cabinet 'package' - and thus everything that comes with it. Even if you then paid someone else to put it together for you, those leftover parts are yours. Unless you specifically ceded them in your agreement with the builder, as an enticement / tradeoff. We seem to have several contractors in here arguing that the extra bits are theirs as an entitlement.

 

[signcrafter]

It is, generally. You purchased that cabinet 'package' - and thus everything that comes with it. Even if you then paid someone else to put it together for you, those leftover parts are yours. Unless you specifically ceded them in your agreement with the builder, as an enticement / tradeoff. We seem to have several contractors in here arguing that the extra bits are theirs as an entitlement.

The difference is the OP didn't order and buy a kit from the manufacturer. He paid the contractor for a pole barn to be built and that is what he got. He also paid the contractor for the materials, not the manufacturer.

 

[rayra]

My customers own all the materials, and they pay for all the materials. If I provide materials, they must pay me for the materials I provide, or replenish those materials.

But I contract for labor, and my contract clearly states that they will pay for all materials, or else get charged a markup fee.

If I contracted for the end product, all they would own would be the end product, and all they would pay would be the contracted price, plus extras. Any materials I bought would be mine, if they were left over from the project.

If they are paying a contract price for a product, all they get is the product. If they are paying for extras, and they paid for those materials separately, they get to keep those materials, because they paid for them, and not a contracted price for the extra product.

My contract is pages long. It tells a client what they will get from me, how I will provide it, and what they will provide for me in return, and how they will provide it. Any alterations to the contract must be made before the document is signed.

Much of my contract is there to protect me, BTW. I worked for a lot of lawyers, and believe me, if it isn't on paper, you are screwed when you are swimming with the sharks.

Dudley has broken it down correctly, as far as I'm concerned. It matters explicitly what is being contracted for and by what conduit the materials are paid for.

If I contract with a craftsman to provide a service and I separately or directly pay for the materials, then the leftovers are mine. Not the craftsman's by dint of his laying hands on them in the course of the project..

 

[rayra]

I think there are several great examples in the other thread I linked to

A landscape contractor buys landscape cloth by the 3,000 sq ft roll - because he gets a better deal that way. He takes the roll to his client's job site because he is going to use 250 sq feet off of it. Does the client then get to keep the other 2,750 sq ft because it was on the jobsite?

NO

The client got what he paid for and so did you

All depends on if he's billing the client for a 3000' roll or the 250' that were used.
If you say 3000, it's padding the bill. It's stealing from that client to generate a 90% surplus of material.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

I will state again that it is my belief from the vague answers by the O.P. that the G.C. purchased the materials and therefore gets to dispense with them as he sees fit.

The same rules apply if it were reversed. For example today an elderly woman contracted with me (last Friday) to build her a laundry room in her basement. I must have used a Harbor Freight tape measure when I initially measured the space because my walls ended up being 3' longer than I had planned for. Who do you think is paying for the extra dimensional lumber, sheetrock, tile, and what not? I am. I contracted to build a laundry room and was paid a deposit for it. I would only ask for an additional amount if I found a serious unforeseen issue such as mold or faulty wiring but never for a screw up I made that is absolutely no fault of my client. Now I might still end up with a few extra outlets or piece of pipe or two when the job is done, those I will probably hang on to unless the client expresses an interest in them...

 

[KDXSR5]

All depends on if he's billing the client for a 3000' roll or the 250' that were used.
If you say 3000, it's padding the bill. It's stealing from that client to generate a 90% surplus of material.

I know I said I was going to leave this thread alone, but I can't.

You are touching on the differences between a lump sum contract and a time and material contract here. I will not go into time and material contracts, because many (not necessarily you) on this site can't even comprehend a basic lump sum contract.

You bill the client for a finished product in a lump sum bid. You do not bill for time and material in a lump sum bid.

Lets say I was going to build you a finished 8x10 shed for $2500 with a complete set of specs and finishes specified by you. In the contract, it would read that I provide all material and labor necessary to complete the shed to your specs.

I could order 5 bunkers of 2x4s, ten stacks of 5/8 OSB, 20 squares of shingles, and 500 lbs of various screws/nails while I built your shed so I could get good discounts on supplies I know I will use in the future. I would obviously not use all that material to build your shed, it just happens that I was low on stock, so I ordered my materials in the most economical way I could from my supplier.

Let's say I even ordered 500 ft of 2 inch steel pipe while I was working on your shed, and I didn't actually need any of it for your shed. I just happened to order it while ordering materials for my stock that your shed will be built out of.

When the shed is done and you, as the owner, sign off on the finished product as meeting your specs that we originally agreed on, then I get my $2500, and you get your shed completed to your specs.

You do not get all of my material stock that I happened to order while building your shed. It doesnt matter if I used some of the material on your project(2x4s OSB, fasteners, shingles), or not (steel pipe), you get none of it other than what was used in your shed. In fact, my materials that I happened to buy while building your shed are worth more and cost me more than your entire shed. You do not get those materals as a client. That is not how a lump sum bid works. You get a completed shed built to your specs.

I don't know how to explain this any better over the Internet. This paragraph is a general statement, not necessarily aimed at you in particular. If you guys really care to know the how's and why's of construction contracts, then go to your local library and rent a book on construction contracting. It is abundantly clear that there are several on this site that have no clue how construction contracting works.