Let's talk jacks (yet again)

[jrlp]

Hey guys,

I know this comes up quite a bit.. I've read all the threads over the course of the last few weeks. I'm looking for a jack (or two) for the shop. Our lift is going up this week, but I want a good jack. I do lots of luxury cars and diesel trucks

I'm looking at a few OTC jacks

This one caught my eye! http://www.tooltopia.com/otc-tools-5200.aspx

I seem to do lots of MB's with suspension problems, and lots of lowered cars. The 20" lift height is pretty impressive as well. I know it's neigh-impossible to get the best of both worlds but that one looks pretty damn close.

 

[G1GRANDEUR]

ac hydraulic

 

[EDGAR]

Expensive chinese jack. I believe it is made by Torin. You would do better if you buy a HEIN WERNER 93652, 3 ton or a HEIN WERNER 93642, 2 ton, made in USA. Also, the OTC jacks use the less desirable o- ring and o-ring retainer as a main seal. The HEIN WERNERS use u-cups, which are much better. That jack is also sold by GRIOTS GARAGE cheaper if you still want it.

http://www.griotsgarage.com/product/2-ton+floor+jack.do?sortby=ourPicks

Also shown is a Torin sold by NORTHERN TOOLS which is a "relative" of the rebranded jack sold by OTC.

 

[JoeMA]

Expensive chinese jack. I believe it is made by Torin. You would do better if you buy a HEIN WERNER 93652, 3 ton or a HEIN WERNER 93642, 2 ton, made in USA. Also, the OTC jacks use the less desirable o- ring and o-ring retainer as a main seal. The HEIN WERNERS use u-cups, which are much better. That jack is also sold by GRIOTS GARAGE cheaper if you still want it.

http://www.griotsgarage.com/product/2-ton+floor+jack.do?sortby=ourPicks

Also shown is a Torin sold by NORTHERN TOOLS which is a "relative" of the rebranded jack sold by OTC.

The Griot's jack is made in Spain, not China.

 

[I van putski]

Hein Werner. There are no other options.

 

[billymade]

The other premium made in usa brand to check out is milwaukee!

http://www.milwaukeejack.com/

 

[rshadd]

Get a USA made Hein-Werner. Pricey, but it is really a quality piece.

Don't be afraid to buy the best, you'll always be happy with it.

 

[Richard D]

I got one of these air over hydraulic jacks and I love it. Couldn't find "China" anywhere on the jack, manual, or package, but no "USA" either.
http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/5...up=npadwords&gclid=CMKGx9Tws7UCFdSmPAodJTAAew
I just use it in a hobby garage, not daily punishment.

 

[EDGAR]

That the GRIOTS GARAGE jack is made in Spain does not necessarily means it was designed in Spain. It is probably built there with a license from a chinese manufacturer.

 

[KPAero]

AC Hydraulic jacks are awesome:

http://www.acjacks.com/acjacks_003.htm

 

[jrlp]

Expensive chinese jack. I believe it is made by Torin. You would do better if you buy a HEIN WERNER 93652, 3 ton or a HEIN WERNER 93642, 2 ton, made in USA. Also, the OTC jacks use the less desirable o- ring and o-ring retainer as a main seal. The HEIN WERNERS use u-cups, which are much better. That jack is also sold by GRIOTS GARAGE cheaper if you still want it.

http://www.griotsgarage.com/product/2-ton+floor+jack.do?sortby=ourPicks

Also shown is a Torin sold by NORTHERN TOOLS which is a "relative" of the rebranded jack sold by OTC.

I was thinking of a hein werner or a milwaukee. But I didn't see they have a low pickup height model. Do they have a low lift-style one? I have been saving for a while, I'm fully prepared to spend 3-500 for a jack. I just need something that can lift low cars.

 

[CRTDI]

You might want to look at these threads.

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180853&highlight=hydraulic

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36136&highlight=costco

 

[EDGAR]

The lowest the HEIN WERNER go is 3.75". And the AC DK 20 jacks are 3.1" low, see below. If you are looking for a lower lift jack maybe you can get an aluminum racing jack but the really good ones are really expensive, maybe $700-1000 plus.

Another alternative for a really low jack is the new ARCAN 2 ton (2.75") or the older ARCAN 3.5 /3.25 ton jacks (3.5") which are China made and use the o-ring and o-ring retainer as the main seal. See ARCAN links just below.

http://www.powerstationusa.com/brands/Arcan/?s2=Steel Service Jacks&s1=Lifting Equipment (Steel jacks.)

http://www.powerstationusa.com/brands/NOS/?s2=Aluminum Service Jacks&s1=Lifting Equipment (Aluminum jacks.)

Another alternative would be the AFF 200T (2.75") but this one also uses the o-ring and o-ring retainer for a main seal and not the better u-cup seal. See below.

OMEGA has two low profile jacks. These are made by the same company (SHINN FU) that make the HEIN WERNERS but they are imported. These jacks use u-cups as their (better) main ram seal. See below.

Shown below is the o-ring and o-ring retainer type of seal used in OTC'S, AFF, TORIN, ARCAN and other lower priced jacks. Picture from HIBALL imported jack repair tutorial.

Also shown below is a typical u-cup (in red).

 

[Oneguy]

I have the torin 1.5 ton aluminum double pump and the arcan xl35, both of which have served me well.

I have been eyeing the bar for freight 2 ton low profile to round out my collection and so that I won't have to drive my wife's car up on wood blocks to service it. It also have great range at almost 24" high.

 

[itwnexus]

OTC 5200 2-Ton Capacity Ultra-Low Profile Service Jack sells for $426.84 at

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002Z2Z8BW/?tag=atomicindus08-20

But 2 reviews stating that the seller on amazon.com does not package it well so it comes damaged.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002Z2Z8BW/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Does any one on garagejournal have the OTC 5200?



Video on OTC 5200:

 

[supra90turbo]

Oneguy: I can't honestly suggest the Harbor Freight low profile jack. A friend bought one a couple years ago and it literally fell apart on us after a couple months of general use.

 

[GRX]

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36136&highlight=costco

^^ x2 on the Costco Arcan jack.
Over a year now and mine has performed flawlessly. And the price was right. Just what I needed for my lowered Mustang.

 

[itwnexus]

jrlp, are you going to buy the OTC 5200. If you get one, please post a review on this jack.

 

[mofo62]

.


Nice tool.Nice Pictures.Congratulations! rshadd


V!

 

[Monte]

the OTC 5200 jack as well as the Griots jack are made by www.Mega.es

Compac jacks are good too: http://www.asedeals.com/hydraulicjacks.html

 

[MG44]

At the shop we have an orange harbor freight low profile jack. It is 2 tons and is not aluminum, it is steel. It has been a good jack for several years, the only downfall is it releases pretty fast.

I don't understand all the hoopla about great quality $600 jacks. I have 8 jacks here at the shop and none of them are $600, the most I've probably ever paid for a jack is around $300. The cars get set on jackstands, the jack is simply a method of lifting the vehicle to set on a jackstand.

I think some of the garagejournalers wouldn't be able to sleep at night when I pick up the limo's on the drive on lift and use a fork lift to pick the rear up to place it on chinese tripod safety stands when we do exhaust work on them.

 

[AficanToolman]

That the GRIOTS GARAGE jack is made in Spain does not necessarily means it was designed in Spain. It is probably built there with a license from a chinese manufacturer.

No, Torin makes a cheap copy of the Mega design in China. It is very much inferior to the great design from Spain. Mega is a large well known jack company from spain.

 

[jrlp]

Well, I have til Tuesday to make my decision. I'll do some more reading and update this thread. Thanks for all the opinions and input guys! I really do appreciate the time you've put into educating me.

 

[EDGAR]

A jack is as good as the seals it uses. The OTC and the Mega jacks use cheap, and less desirable, seals for the main ram, mainly an o-ring and a very frail o-ring retainer. Anyone who has seen and dealt with these type of seals know how inferior is the o-ring and o-ring retainer compared to the sturdier u-cup. The ones who do not know this difference ( like in South Africa, for example) are easily fooled by expensively priced but cheaply built jacks.

O-rings and o-ring retainers are the type of seals used in most cheap chinese jacks, the ones selling for $80.00 to $90.00. So why would anyone pay $500.00 for an expensive jack with cheap and weak seals?

It does not matter if the Griots Garage jack is built in Spain by Mega or even in the Moon by Lunatics, for that matter, it still is an expensive "pretender" jack. The same can be said of the OTC jacks.

There is an old saying: "A fool and his money are soon parted", so no one should automatically think that an expensive jack is better than a lower priced one. You have to find info about the parts used in the jack and decide based on that. Sure, the OTC and the Mega jacks are very flashy and very pretty, but pretty is as pretty does. I would take either an Omega, or a Hein Werner, jack over any OTC or Mega jack any day of the week because these use u-cups.

So, the Torin model T820028D sold by Northern Tools and others, is as good or as bad as the Mega built Griots Garage jack and the OTC 5200 because they use the same cheap seals for the main ram or piston. If this company, Mega, has cheapened on the seals, what else have they cheapened on? That's the question.

See below the difference between the o-ring and its retainer and the u-cup. The u-cup has more area making contact with the cylinder, because it is taller than the o-ring, and it is much more stronger than the o-ring and its frail, and thin, retainer. So, who wants weak seals? Not me, for sure.

P.S. Of course, every one here knows these are compression seals, which means that under load they are compressed againts the cylinder wall. So, a stronger and taller and/or bigger seal, like an u-cup, performs better, and it could be said that it is safer too, than a thin and weak o-ring retainer. That jacks using o-ring retainers work at all and do not break the seal at the first lifting of a load is like a miracle. A far more dangerous miracle, for those who forget to use jack stands, than a jack using an u-cup in good shape is.

 

[itwnexus]

Edgar, how do you know what is in an OTC and a Mega jack? How do you know that OTC and a Mega jack have seal failures? Have you actually torn one down and rebuilt it?

Edgar, I have a 25 year old Allied Hydraulic import jack and it is still working. It does not need a rebuild yet.

Hiball, can you weigh in on this discussion?

Hiball, are OTC and the Mega jacks junk?

Hein-Werner unfortunately do not make a real low profile jack for lowered cars.

 

[Hiball]

Hiball, can you weigh in on this discussion?

I generally stay out of these discussions because ultimately someone is gonna get there feelings hurt.

Edgar, I have a 25 year old Allied Hydraulic import jack and it is still working. It does not need a rebuild

And I'd be willing to bet if you tear your jack down, it probably has a quality UCup and its probably somewhere around 12mm thick.

Hiball, are OTC and the Mega jacks junk?

No they are Not Junk... (Cant comment on the Mega line) Nothing wrong with the hydraulic system, And ive discussed this 100X's here at GJ, it ultimately comes down to the type Of seals used. The Shell/Oring seal is a poor design that just doesn't give you the longevity/sealing capabilities that a poly Ucup will give you. I gave up along time go trying to keep up with these Import jack manufacturers, there really is only a handful of hydraulic designs being used with 100's of different color schemes with small subtle changes. Edgar is correct, when he says that its easy to overpay... Unfortunately as a consumer you don't have the option to walk into your store and tear the jack down to verify the seal type. Sure you can sometimes find breakdowns that might shed some light, but they are somewhat generic in form and getting worse every year.

Hein-Werner unfortunately do not make a real low profile jack for lowered cars.

Low profile jacks are something that hasn't really taken off in the Hein Werner market and its unlikely you will ever see them. If you need a Low profile Jack, buy from a reputable retailer and invest in a warranty if available.

 

[rshadd]

Hein-Werner unfortunately do not make a real low profile jack for lowered cars.

I never considered it to be a big deal to drive up on a couple of 2"x10's when necessary in order to get some clearance for my Hein-Werner.

 

[stricht8]

I thought the good jacks use a leather seal instead of a rubber o ring. We're the u cups made of leather at some point? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

[EDGAR]

As I mentioned before, a jack is as good as the seals it uses.

Many old imported jacks are still operating because these usually had nitrile u-cups which last a long time. Later, the u-cups used in jacks were made out of urethane because the urethane u-cups have a higher load rating (4000-6000 psi) than nitrile u-cups (1000-1500psi). Although urethane u-cups last less time than nitrile u-cups, they are prefered because of the higher load rating. So, an early jack, using a nitrile u-cup, would be sold as a 1.5 ton or 2 ton rated jack, but now, a similar sized jack, would be sold as a 3 ton or a 3.5 ton rated jack because of the use of the urethane u-cup.

Latter imported jacks have been using for some time now, the less desirable o-rings and o-ring retainers because of cost concerns. The manufacturers want to save money precisely where more money should be spent/invested.

As far as OTC, they have parts breakdowns for most of their jacks. At least up to the 10 ton range long floor jacks, OTC jacks use the cheap o-ring and retainer except for the rebranded Weavers. Below are samples of OTC parts breakdowns. All of these have o-rings and retainers.

http://www2.otctools.com/otctools.com/newcatalog/products/520770_English.pdf

http://www2.otctools.com/otctools.com/newcatalog/products/553737_E.pdf

http://www2.otctools.com/otctools.com/newcatalog/products/519509_E.pdf

http://www2.otctools.com/otctools.com/newcatalog/products/522982_E.pdf

http://www2.otctools.com/otctools.com/newcatalog/products/555055_E.pdf.pdf

http://www2.otctools.com/otctools.com/newcatalog/products/520770_English.pdf

http://www2.otctools.com/otctools.com/newcatalog/products/545743.pdf

At least to me, if I pay a high price for a jack, I expect it to use good quality seals. Charging higher prices while using cheaper seals seems to me to be some sort of a fraud and I would feel cheated and dissappointed if I find out this after spending more money for a jack when a better jack from other manufacturer could be had for less money.

OTC model 1552 is the same jack Harbor Freight used to sell as model HF 67022. But the OTC was priced higher than the HF. A person who bought the OTC probably thought that he had a better quality jack than the HF jack. Pictures below.

 

[BD1]

^^ x2 on the Costco Arcan jack.
Over a year now and mine has performed flawlessly. And the price was right. Just what I needed for my lowered Mustang.

I agree. I bought two and can't be beat for the money. Local tire shop has them and that sold me.

 

[Hiball]

I thought the good jacks use a leather seal instead of a rubber o ring. We're the u cups made of leather at some point? Or am I thinking of something else?

They Havent used Leather Seals on the "Main Cylinder" for Quite sometime in the "Current" Hydraulic Jack World, Your Current Production HW's still Use Leather Vees on the Pump Piston as did the Early Walkers.

 

[Hiball]

Later imported jacks have been using for some time now, the less desirable o-rings and o-ring retainers because of cost concerns. The manufacturers want to save money precisely where more money should be spent/invested.

IMO Only.. I believe the change from Ucup to Oring/Sleeve was done more as a attempt to reduce the Longevity of the Jack. These companies arent in the business of selling Jacks that Last upwards of 20-30 years (as your 30 year old Yasui based jacks would with the 22x40x12 Ucup), They love the fact that we are now a Disposable Nation.

There just cant be that much of a Cost Savings between the Shell style and a Poly Ucup, Especially in the Quantities they would be buying them.

 

[AficanToolman]

A jack is as good as the seals it uses. The OTC and the Mega jacks use cheap, and less desirable, seals for the main ram, mainly an o-ring and a very frail o-ring retainer. Anyone who has seen and dealt with these type of seals know how inferior is the o-ring and o-ring retainer compared to the sturdier u-cup. The ones who do not know this difference ( like in South Africa, for example) are easily fooled by expensively priced but cheaply built jacks.

Excuse me ?

What makes you think we have no idea here about the internals of the jacks we have been working with and rebuilding for decades ?


If you think the cheap Chinese designs are found in the Megas you are very naive.


I have 5 Mega jacks that have been working 6 days a week for 4 years without a single failure or rebuild. Other shops around here have had similar reliablity for decades.

Chinese O ring designs fail in the same shop in 3 to 6 months. Ive also had U cup designs fail in just over 1 year.



P.S OTC use many different manufacturers as their jack suppliers, with many being cheap Torin designs.

 

[I van putski]

Well it's not just what's in the pump that makes a quality jack.
Here's what happened to some fools cheap jack at the drag strip one day.
Only steel hein werners for me.

 

[Hiball]

I have 5 Mega jacks that have been working 6 days a week for 4 years without a single failure or rebuild. Other shops around here have had similar reliablity for decades.

I'm not sure what type of Ram seal the Mega jacks utilize, but a Jack that is used on a daily basis (Even the Oring/Shell type) will be much more reliable than the same jack that is used Once every other week. The reasoning behind this is because when a jack sits unattended for extended times the seals start losing there elasticity little by little, and that process is accelerated on jacks that don't get used on a regular basis. This Process holds true for all seals poly/buna but on the Oring/Shell style, when the Oring starts to harden the uniformity that the seal exerts on the outer cylinder (along with the inside) is unbalanced and you get seepage.

I'd be interested in seeing some pictures of the "Mega" jacks along with internal pictures if you have any..

 

[Gotmayhem]

Oneguy: I can't honestly suggest the Harbor Freight low profile jack. A friend bought one a couple years ago and it literally fell apart on us after a couple months of general use.

Really? That's interesting to hear...my friend has had one for over a year now and it's held up very well with decently regular use. I was impressed with it enough to buy one myself. I haven't had it for very long but it's still doing well. Maybe you got a bad one, or perhaps they updated the jack?

 

[Monte]

is there really such a big difference between a hydraulic cylinder with u-cup and o-ring w/ backing ring ?? The o-ring/backing ring design is used everywhere not only on trolley jack cylinders but also on industrial hydraulics like from SPX power team etc..... ?? How much is the difference in cycle life ?

 

[Hiball]

is there really such a big difference between a hydraulic cylinder with u-cup and o-ring w/ backing ring ?? The o-ring/backing ring design is used everywhere not only on trolley jack cylinders but also on industrial hydraulics like from SPX power team etc..... ?? How much is the difference in cycle life ?

Your referencing 2 types of seals, don't confuse a Oring/Shell being used as a Piston seal versus a oring/backup in a rod or gland sealing application.

Yes.. Night and Day difference between a shell/oring and a Ucup.

 

[GRX]

At the shop we have an orange harbor freight low profile jack. It is 2 tons and is not aluminum, it is steel. It has been a good jack for several years, the only downfall is it releases pretty fast.

I don't understand all the hoopla about great quality $600 jacks. I have 8 jacks here at the shop and none of them are $600, the most I've probably ever paid for a jack is around $300. The cars get set on jackstands, the jack is simply a method of lifting the vehicle to set on a jackstand.

I think some of the garagejournalers wouldn't be able to sleep at night when I pick up the limo's on the drive on lift and use a fork lift to pick the rear up to place it on chinese tripod safety stands when we do exhaust work on them.

Well put. Jack stands are our friends! Not saying this applies to anyone here of course ... but I think anyone who is stupid enough to trust their life to a seal of any kind is well, you know

 

[s14kev]

A jack is as good as the seals it uses. The OTC and the Mega jacks use cheap, and less desirable, seals for the main ram, mainly an o-ring and a very frail o-ring retainer. Anyone who has seen and dealt with these type of seals know how inferior is the o-ring and o-ring retainer compared to the sturdier u-cup. The ones who do not know this difference ( like in South Africa, for example) are easily fooled by expensively priced but cheaply built jacks.

O-rings and o-ring retainers are the type of seals used in most cheap chinese jacks, the ones selling for $80.00 to $90.00. So why would anyone pay $500.00 for an expensive jack with cheap and weak seals?

It does not matter if the Griots Garage jack is built in Spain by Mega or even in the Moon by Lunatics, for that matter, it still is an expensive "pretender" jack. The same can be said of the OTC jacks.

There is an old saying: "A fool and his money are soon parted", so no one should automatically think that an expensive jack is better than a lower priced one. You have to find info about the parts used in the jack and decide based on that. Sure, the OTC and the Mega jacks are very flashy and very pretty, but pretty is as pretty does. I would take either an Omega, or a Hein Werner, jack over any OTC or Mega jack any day of the week because these use u-cups.

This is not entirely correct. I purchased an OTC 1727 used and decided to rebuild it. It is a USA made jack. The jack uses u-cup seals throughout both on the main ram and the pump piston. The pump piston acutally has an o-ring loaded lip seal which is superior to a u-cup seal. The overall build of the jack seems to be superior to the Hein Werner 93652 I also use and which I have also re-sealed before. The OTC side plates are flanged on the upper and lower portion which seems to make it stiffer than the HW which is flanged on the upper portion only.

Interestingly, the OTC parts list and diagram for their jacks which is available for download off their website seem to describe things incorrectly. The OTC 1727 parts diagram shows and lists an o-ring and backup washer for the pump piston but in reality it is an o-ring loaded lip seal (basically a thicker, sturdier u-cup seal with an o-ring jammed in the u part of the seal). Because of this I wouldn't necessarily believe all of the parts manuals for OTC jacks that show o-ring seals. They are very likely to be u-cup seals.

In regards to the OTC 1552 that you use as an example, that is part of their imported "Stinger" branded line. OTC have tried to hide nothing and expressly state that this is part of their imported and less expensive line. I think it is honorable when a company clearly states which products are USA and which are imported rather than hiding the country of manufacture and they should be applauded for this. I think a more fair comparison would be if you picked one of OTC's made in the USA jacks.

The 1727 I rebuilt is shown below (dirty and prior to rebuild) together with the pump and associated seal.