Let's talk jacks (yet again)

[itwnexus]

All of this information is very beneficial. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to explain everything.

How much does it cost to have a hydraulic / machine shop modify the Ram to fit a standard Ucup?

Do you have any pictures of this process?

 

[Hiball]

All of this information is very beneficial. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to explain everything.

How much does it cost to have a hydraulic / machine shop modify the Ram to fit a standard Ucup?

Do you have any pictures of this process?

Cost will vary from area to area, but its not a real labor intensive job. If you scroll back to post #42 I actually took a picture of a ram that utilized the shell/oring type seal and you can see ridge that needs to be removed.

 

[123Go]

I couldnt stand the thought of having plastic wheels on my floor jack like the OTC5200 and others like the Norco's have too now. {Ya I know nomex/kevlar/polymide {aka Nylon its all PLASTIC} Ive been a certified molding tech for yrs and ran it all. Ive made high grade parts for M16/M60 weapons,Crane naval rocket parts to ford,GM,Toyota,ect..Ran most materials new/old.

But like the plastics in all cars, its great and passes all the QC tests when new. Over time the molecular structures break down and it all fails. Like vinyl siding, it gets brittle with age and UV so everything goes through it when its old instead of bouncing off like when new.

Wheels rolling through chemicals depending how its cared for and what chemicals contacted them it will determin life span the same way. If you clean them alot it will add life to them..Not washing my jack wheels though...lol
In the near future the subject of degrading jack parts like seals will also include wheels and folks here will be asking to modify their jacks for steel ones...Mark my word. lol Whats next the saddle or worse the lift arm? Give me an all steel jack please.

In the early 1980's when I was in tech school there was a complete plastic car engine in my tech book ready for market! Only thing it was lacking was the better oil needed to keep friction/heat down that was causing it to melt. Yep' you heard correct...Its the oil companies falt it wasnt in cars already and they needed to catch up according to Dupont...lol
Well as you may see under the hood if your cars under 15yrs old theres plastic intake manifolds,valve covers,oil pans ect.. They **** too...Warp,crack,leak you name it. Again though its the oils fault so theyre all working on it for us..IMO Plastic shouldnt be near much less under any car hood...But it pays my bills.
For anyone thinking its the same material bullit proof vests are made from you're correct. Thats why the vests have experation dates of around 5 yrs. Whats the wheels exp date?

======HW SIDE PLATES?
I never noticed the 3 ton HW 93652 didnt have flanged side plates on its lower side like my 2 ton HW93642. Its pressed steel so Im sure its a one step operation to do one or both edges in one shot? So no cost savings? Anyone have an idea why they dont do it?
It may be to allow marketing hype for the OTC boss line to state strongest in class frame to help sales for its highly inflated cost? Completely guessing but possible in todays marketing stratagies? Profits on the boss have to be astronomical.

 

[itwnexus]

AC hydraulic jack wheels are polymar. I think jack manufacturers are making plastic wheels because steel wheels tear up garage floor finishes.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/TOOL/POR_TOOL_ACHyd1_pg6.htm

 

[rmsg0040]

Saw this at princessauto today, looks kinda like a compac jack, tested it in store and it rolls smooth, quick lift pedal, and you gotta lift the handle up and twist to the right to lower

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8382293/Floor-Jacks/2-Ton-Low-Profile-Garage-Jack

COO unknown

 

[Hiball]

It doesnt share any characteristics with the Compaq linked in this Thread (other than the foot pedal), What model are you referencing?

 

[EDGAR]

The princess auto jack is the Torin T820028D I mentioned in post #3 of this same thread, with a different brand and a different color, for the one shown in the link, otherwise the same red color for the one in the store. It is very similar in shape to the OTC 5200/Mega T2. Northern Tools sells it for less, $275

 

[Hiball]

The princess auto jack is the Torin T820028D I mentioned in post #3 of this same thread, with a different brand and a different color, for the one shown in the link, otherwise the same red color for the one in the store. It is very similar in shape to the OTC 5200/Mega T2. Northern Tools sells it for less, $275

I believe Shape is all it shares with the Otc.. The hydraulic unit has different characteristics.

 

[EDGAR]

Yes, the pump is different. First picture is the Torin pump, the second is the OTC pump and the third is from the Princess Auto parts breakdown. Yet these use the o-ring and o-ring retainer as a main seal.

 

[Hiball]

Yes, the pump is different. First picture is the Torin pump and the second is the OTC pump. Yet both use the o-ring and o-ring retainer as a main seal.

Possibly... I hate to say because I haven't had that torin apart, and there manual is generic at best. My gut tells me yes it will utilize the shell/oring also. I mainly noticed the tank style and valve location.

 

[EDGAR]

All the Torins I have opened, small or large, had an o-ring and o-ring retainers. I doubt they have ever used an u-cup, maybe in their first years of operation but maybe not. Maybe Torin is the inventor of the retainer but I have yet to find that out.

Except for the aluminum jacks which only use an o-ring without the retainer, similar to the pump below which uses 2 o-rings as a main seal, part #31.

 

[Hiball]

All the Torins I have openned, small or large, had an o-ring and o-ring retainers. I doubt they have ever used an u-cup, maybe in their first years of operation but maybe not. Maybe Torin is the inventor of the retainer but I have yet to find that out.

Except for the aluminum jacks which only use an o-ring without the retainer.

Could be...I don't mess with enough of them to recall... For some reason I recall the pedal style (quick lift) having a Ucup. That's probably the last Torin I recall working on, Sold tons of parts.. Just not worth my time from a financial standpoint.

The first thing that comes to mind when I see a retainer setup, is that it has to go, and its getting replaced with a Ucup.

 

[EDGAR]

If the pedal type jack used the same pump (not similar) as the one in your tutorial, then it had the retainer. The pump in your tutorial is the same pump made by Torin. If you still have it check if it has the letters TR in the front part of the pump body. These letters stand for Tongrun, the maker of Torin jacks. This particular pump design has always used the retainer. As I mentioned before, maybe they used u-cups in their beginnings, in a different pump design, but today, they mostly use retainers (except alumunim jacks).

I have a couple of the pedal jacks that I rescued from a scrap metal yard and the pumps they have are the Torin pumps with the retainers.

I am assuming the pedal you refer to is the one that is attached to the lift arm axle or pivot.

 

[Hiball]

If the pedal type jack used the same pump (not similar) as the one in your tutorial, then it had the retainer. The pump in your tutorial is the same pump made by Torin. If you still have it check if it has the letters TR in the front part of the pump body. These letters stand for Tongrun, the maker of Torin jacks. This particular pump design has always used the retainer. As I mentioned before, maybe they used u-cups in their beginnings, in a different pump design, but today, they mostly use retainers (except alumunim jacks).

I have a couple of the pedal jacks that I rescued from a scrap metal yard and the pumps they have are the Torin pumps with the retainers.

I am assuming the pedal you refer to is the one that is attached to the lift arm axle or pivot.

Yes.. The pedal is connected to the lift arm and draws fluid via ball/seat that is inside the cylinder. I'm almost 100% sure it had a ucup, because I remember thinking "we'll they must have used a Ucup to create and keep the vacuum steady"

 

[rmsg0040]

It doesnt share any characteristics with the Compaq linked in this Thread (other than the foot pedal), What model are you referencing?

When I first looked at it, it seemed similar in the sense of a D handle and bogie wheels

 

[rmsg0040]

It doesnt share any characteristics with the Compaq linked in this Thread (other than the foot pedal), What model are you referencing?

When I first looked at it, it seemed similar in the sense of a D handle and bogie wheels

 

[Hiball]

When I first looked at it, it seemed similar in the sense of a D handle and bogie wheels

The Chinese are pro's at taking a product and stealing the details to make the unobservant consumer think its the same.

Yes.. They both have a D handle.
Yes.. They both have bogie wheels.


But doesn't have the same type do hydraulic unit, if you look at the majority of the compac units you'll see that there is nothing else in common. If you look closely, The hydraulic cylinder is inverted and pushes towards the user, versus away in your typical jack. This is why there is a copper feed line that runs from the unit to the front of the Jack. <--- as you can see in the Compaq picture in this thread.

 

[rmsg0040]

^^ Plus they gotta proofread, read the owners manual on it, many times they say hack instead of jack

 

[EDGAR]

For Hiball and anyone interested

I e-mailed one David Lu of the Tongrun company, makers of Torin jack and asked about the use of u-cups in Torin jacks. He answered that from last year, 2012, what they call their professional line of jacks are using new seals. He refered me to their catalog and it shows that the new seals are urethane u-cups with the step at the bottom (upper left corner of the page shown below). He mentions they are doing this to have better quality jacks.

So I guess that it is since last year that they are using u-cups??? I did ask him if they used u-cups before, like at the begining of the company operations, but he did not answer that question. I may try again with that question and see if he answers it.

Also, see pics of the catalog pages he sent me. These are the jacks supposedly using u-cups. He does mention that not all Torin jacks will be using the u-cups because there is extra cost. Below is the answer he sent me (as sent).


Dear Edgar,

Many thanks for your e-mail, can you tell me what's your company name, then I can check record.

You are right, before last year our jack used normal rubber O-ring and nylon O-ring retainer on ram, but in order to make better quality and longer using life, we develop new material O-ring on professional jack, you can see attached description on our new catalogue. Of cause, these seal kits are not for all jacks now, only according to customer's request, because of some cost different. That means we can supply you new O-ring jack, you need note on your order and the items.

If you any questions, pls contact me at once.




Best regards

David Lu
G.M. of sales company

Changshu Tongrun Auto Accessory Co.,Ltd.

Tel: 0086-512-52345599
Mobile: 0086-13901578460
Fax: 0086-512-52341090
E-mail: [email protected]
Skype name: David5599
Website: www.tongrunjacks.com

 

[homesale]

Edgar, since you are not a fan of the o-ring & retainer, why did you rebuild your low lift version Arcan (blue in color) prior to the present ARCAN 3.5XL with an o-ring & retainer instead of retrofitting it with a u-cup?

You also mentioned that you rescued an Arcan 3.5xl. When you rebuild the Arcan 3.5xl, will you retrofitted it with a U-cup?

 

[EDGAR]

Did not care enough to retrofit the blue Arcan with an u-cup since I was not going to used it. Anyway, it was a "gift" because it was not working. But the problem was not with the retainer, it was something else. I tested it a couple of times. Since then, it has being in storage for some years now, behind other equipment and boxes, and I am not planning on taking it out anytime soon. I already have a few old Lincolns and Hein Werners 93642 that I use whenever I need to use a jack. Also rescued from scrap yards!

Why should I use anything else?

 

[tearlessj]

It would be awesome if someone could do a write-up on a Ucup seal for a Arcan 3.5 .

 

[Jeeper]

Question on the ucups. What is the purpose of the backing washer (black arrow in the picture below)? Is it really needed?

It sounds like when you convert a jack from oring retainer/oring to ucup, you wouldn't have a backing washer just the ucup. Is that an issue?

 

[Hiball]

For Hiball and anyone interested

I e-mailed one David Lu of the Tongrun company, makers of Torin jack and asked about the use of u-cups in Torin jacks. He answered that from last year, 2012, what they call their professional line of jacks are using new seals. He refered me to their catalog and it shows that the new seals are urethane u-cups with the step at the bottom (upper left corner of the page shown below). He mentions they are doing this to have better quality jacks.

So I guess that it is since last year that they are using u-cups??? I did ask him if they used u-cups before, like at the begining of the company operations, but he did not answer that question. I may try again with that question and see if he answers it.

Also, see pics of the catalog pages he sent me. These are the jacks supposedly using u-cups. He does mention that not all Torin jacks will be using the u-cups because there is extra cost. Below is the answer he sent me (as sent).


Dear Edgar,

Many thanks for your e-mail, can you tell me what's your company name, then I can check record.

You are right, before last year our jack used normal rubber O-ring and nylon O-ring retainer on ram, but in order to make better quality and longer using life, we develop new material O-ring on professional jack, you can see attached description on our new catalogue. Of cause, these seal kits are not for all jacks now, only according to customer's request, because of some cost different. That means we can supply you new O-ring jack, you need note on your order and the items.

If you any questions, pls contact me at once.




Best regards

David Lu
G.M. of sales company

Changshu Tongrun Auto Accessory Co.,Ltd.

Tel: 0086-512-52345599
Mobile: 0086-13901578460
Fax: 0086-512-52341090
E-mail: [email protected]
Skype name: David5599
Website: www.tongrunjacks.com

Outside of the Color Difference, It looks similar to the Cup/Backup that Shinn fu used on some of there Jacks (4 ton Craftsman etc..) Unless the Nylon piece is just a Washer? Ill hold off Judgement ill i run across one or see some better pics, Thanks for the Info, Cant fault a company for trying to better there Product.

 

[EDGAR]

For Hiball

To me it looks like the u-cup of the new Torin has a step, on the bottom, similar to the u-cup presented by you. If you amplify the image you can more or less see that there is blue color inside the back up washer.

For Jeeper

The back up is needed more in the case of nitrile u-cups, but these are not used nowadays in jacks. Earlier models of Shinn Fu jacks used nitrile u-cups but were later changed to urethane.

The purpose of the back up is to prevent what is called extrusion, which is when the bottom end of the seal wants to go into the space between the ram body and the cylinder under pressure. This can also happen with o-rings and that is why you always see o-rings with back ups. The back up is supposed to be slightly bigger in diameter than the bottom of the u-cup so it is made with closer tolerances with respect to the cylinder, without binding or jamming. Extrusion can damage the seals.

With urethane u-cups the possibility of extrusion is less but still the backups are recommended and used. It could be an issue on very high pressures but maybe not on the pressure generated by the weights lifted by floor jacks.

See below with and without back up rings. See also extrusion of o-rings.

 

[homesale]

tearlessj, I also would love to see a write-up on a U-cup seal retrofit.

 

[itwnexus]

Edgar, regarding the Craftsman 3 Ton Aluminum Floor Jack, even though sears still sells this jack, many of the parts are discontinued already (power unit, handle lock fastener, handle socket asy, tool try, oil filter screw).

http://www.ereplacementparts.com/craftsman-21450244-floor-jack-parts-c-158286_160075_160083.html

 

[123Go]

When you look at the Torin flyer here that Edgar posted you'll see a 3.5 ton T83505 low profile service jack. I owned that jack for a couple yrs. The first one failed after a few months. Squeeled so loud the neighbors dogs howled. Changed oil, it was full but I thought it may have moisture,bled cylinder etc..and it wouldnt shut up.

Torin service was no help but spoke english. It finaly siezed and PepBoys swapped it out for me.
Second one squeeled the same exact way and after about 2 yrs it junked too. I scraped it instead of fixing it. I lost all trust in it because after really looking closely at the 3.5 ton Torins lift arm its just an 1 1/2 x 1/4 inch steel box frame with sheet metal welded on top and bottom. It creaked pretty loud everytime I used it even with my 88 maxima on it.

Looking at the rear swivel wheel mounts {shoulders} the welds were not completed. They were welded across top but not down the sides at all. Gaps on both mounts.
Too me it looked like Torin slapped it together half a$$ed and threw it in a box. It was rather shocking because I used them so much expecting them to sieze maybe. But not collapse!
It looked like a really well made heavy duty jack until you looked closer. You have to look close at these China jacks. They really have mastered the craft of hiding half a$$ed work.
I'll "never" own another Torin anything after that!
If anyone is going to use a torin product, look it over very well first, all the welds,supports and everything. Really look close.

This all said, I too am glad they are upgrading the cylinder. Hope they figure out their problems with them too. I hope its a sign of better things to come for anyone who owns them. They need to upgrade their quality control too for sure. Maybe the right person is running the show now? For all their customers sakes I sure do hope so.
I know all their jacks are not built by the same company. So please understand guys this is just my experience with one Torin model jack. Your luck of the draw may be better?

 

[Ladd]

I'm sure this is a foolish question, but perhaps someone will answer it. The Tongrun catalog pages show several jacks have u-cup seals in their hydraulics. I can't find a *Torin* catalog or any other *Torin* listings on the Internet that claim to have u-cups. And I can't find anyone selling Tongrun jacks here in the U.S.

Could someone please point me in the correct direction to find out which Torin models have the u-cups? "Looks like" doesn't count.

I'm looking at the TR2006 and TR2005 jacks, specifically. But any of them will do.

Thanks.

 

[StillKeen]

Seems in the $50 - 250 range, there is no guarantee of getting a better product by spending more. I'm down to either HF (not sure if steel or alloy) or a Hein-Warner if the HF jacks really are junk.

1) I assume the HF jacks don't have U-cup seals?
2) Can the the HF jacks be rebuilt at home if issues arise? I.e. Is it a simple matter to fix a leaking jack?

I do DIY work on two cars, and plan to do more DIY as time goes on, but I'm definitely no professional and not lifting up heavy trucks or SUV's. If an HF alloy racing jack or steel jack is not repairable/maintainable and I'll be throwing it out in a few years, then I'll wait and save to get a Hein-Warner for $300 - 400 or maybe a jack from NAPA.

 

[BajaBound]

I have a 4 ton HF and use it on two cars and a bunch of dodge diesels and it's been absolutely awesome for the last couple of years. I to would like to know about rebuilding it as I plan to have to for a while.

 

[EDGAR]

The HF jacks are repairable, just replace the O-rings for the release, the ram nut, the pump pistons and any other leaky o-ring found. As for the main seal, what is usually replaced is the o-ring in the o-ring and o-ring retainer combination as the retainers are not readily available. The only jack seller that offers (or used to offer) repair kits for sale, that include oring retainers, is OTC. But some of the jacks they sell are either rebranded Torin jacks or use pumps made by Torin. Maybe other retainers could be obtained from other jack manufacturers but that would require finding the manufacturer in China and then contacting them to see if they sell a kit. And then the kit would need to be shipped from the manufacturer, which could be another problem, not to mention that you would need to first find someone from the manufacturer that understands enough english so that he understands that you want to buy a repair kit. Probably not an easy quest.

The alternative for the retainer is to do some light machining on the ram to replace the retainer with an u-cup. For that to be cheap to do, you either need to have a lathe or a friend with a lathe.

As for u-cups in Torin jacks, these are extra cost options that the distributor buying jacks from Torin has to request when ordering. I am pretty sure that these distributors are going to go with the cheaper oring and oring retainer equipped jacks just to save some money. Anyway, most end buyers/users won't know the difference.

The OTC 1504 shown below is an example of one of the jacks OTC offers a repair kit for with a retainer. Another jack I believe they sell a kit for, is the expensive OTC 1525, which uses the less desirable o-ring retainer. Nice looking jack but not the best value. A better value would be either the HW 93642 or the HW 93652 because these use an u-cup as the main seal. Omega jacks, as well as PRO LIFT jacks, manufactured by Shinn Fu, also offer u-cups in all of their floor jacks and bottle jacks. All of these jacks are repairable either with kits or by sourcing aftermarket same-size seals from the local hydraulic shop or online. OTC used to sell an OTC 1727, similar in shape as the OTC 1525 and made in USA, which actually used an u-cup but that ended when OTC decided instead to buy jacks from China.

 

[Baldfox157]

Hey,guys. Joined the site today. Love all the info here. Working on a HW winner series. After 30+ years, it finally let me down. I sent Hiball an e-mail to check cup seal availability. Thanks to all for knowledge on this site.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Not encouraging but enlightening none-the-less.

Thank you

 

[AnthonyJ124]

does anyone know what model this jack is I'd like to restore it

Yeah, it's a spam jack you've posted too many times this morning. Good only for lifting your low post count.

 

[cn90]

...The alternative for the retainer is to do some light machining on the ram to replace the retainer with an u-cup. For that to be cheap to do, you either need to have a lathe or a friend with a lathe...

Most people don't have a lathe (I don't have a lathe).

Question: has anyone used a thin washer (such as crush washer) to even out the surface, let's say 2-ton floor jack by Harbor Freight.
- The I.D. is 24 mm, this will "hug" around the ridge.
- The O.D. is 30 mm.

Once the washer is in place, it is now a level surface for the U-cup.

I am posting a photo of my thought, just wonder if anyone has used washer before:

 

[Hiball]

You can simply take the Retainer that was originally used and trim down the sides to mimic a washer, thus leveling the base and readily accepting a Ucup, No need to buy anything. I would be Leary of using any material that could possibly expand and damage the cylinder wall or build up in between the guide/wall and wreck the cylinder.

Secondly, if you have the patience and time you can remove that ridge with a file, Ucup's seal at the top end, thus removing that ridge is only done to allow the base to have a nice flat/uniform place to rest.

 

[threewood]

At the shop we have an orange harbor freight low profile jack. It is 2 tons and is not aluminum, it is steel. It has been a good jack for several years, the only downfall is it releases pretty fast.

I don't understand all the hoopla about great quality $600 jacks. I have 8 jacks here at the shop and none of them are $600, the most I've probably ever paid for a jack is around $300. The cars get set on jackstands, the jack is simply a method of lifting the vehicle to set on a jackstand.

I think some of the garagejournalers wouldn't be able to sleep at night when I pick up the limo's on the drive on lift and use a fork lift to pick the rear up to place it on chinese tripod safety stands when we do exhaust work on them.

I don't have a shop but I agree. The jack lifts the vehicle and jackstands go in. I could not and would not pay $400+ for a jack to do that. If you have a large budget in your shop, go for it. I have been using a HF 2.5 ton low profile jack for a few years with zero issues and I have not been nice to it. I always use jackstands and leave the jack up snug with the frame.

 

[cn90]

For the piston with a small 1mm ridge as shown above, I agree with HiBall that in order to use the U-cup:

Either:

1. Trim the clear factory "Bowl Washer" so it becomes a flat washer.
Then install U-Cup.

Or, I am thinking:

2. Get a utility knife and trim a very small sliver in such a way the U-Cup settles down nicely.
I am thinking something like this, what do you guys think?

 

[Hiball]

For the piston with a small 1mm ridge as shown above, I agree with HiBall that in order to use the U-cup:

Either:

1. Trim the clear factory "Bowl Washer" so it becomes a flat washer.
Then install U-Cup.

Or, I am thinking:

2. Get a utility knife and trim a very small sliver in such a way the U-Cup settles down nicely.
I am thinking something like this, what do you guys think?

I cant see any issues with removing a little bit of the inside of the Ucup, possibly a little bit more controllable with a rotary tool versus utility knife, but a viable option I suppose.