Lighting recommendation

[Kevin54]

I need some help on deciding what kind of lights to put into my new addition. I can't find the thread I had started, and maybe I didn't really ask specifically (I can't remember) but I am ready to get my electrical started. My addition is 28' wide and 30' deep and 10' walls with scissor trusses (3/12 pitch inside) where I need to have lights. I was wanting to put in canned lights, but need enough to be able to light it up bright enough to see. I was thinking 4 rows of 5 lights on two switches (inner two rows, and outer two rows) but the electrician told me that would be too many lights on a 60 amp circuit. He said I would be better off going with LED or fluorescent lights. I'm at a loss other than I'll need to be able to see. So I need some help from the lighting guru's on here.

If I go with fluorescent, I want to mount them right up against the ceiling. Can I go with 4' fixtures, or do I need 8' fixtures, and how many?

If I go with canned lights, how many would I need in that space to adequately light it?

LED's.......I don't have a clue, nor do I really know anything about them other than pay up front for savings later. Is the cost worth it? And how many lights would it take for a space that size?

Any ideas will be appreciated, and any pics would really be appreciated. Hopefully he will be starting like Tuesday on this.

TIA......Kevin

 

[pablo94sc]

How many foot candles do you want, and for much do you want to spend? My opinion, do enough fluorescent lighting to get about 330 lux (about 30FC) around the whole area and then add xenon or halogen task lighting where you need a lot of light. You'll get an even amount for basic stuff without it being blinding, and then have light on demand for detailed work. Also, with your ceiling height you may want to consider getting those fixtures that reflect light off the ceiling. Those are great as you can't blind yourself if you happen to look up. Otherwise, use more single lamp fixtures vs fewer multiple lamp ones. It'll make your overall lighting more even and lessen hotspots of light.

Hope that makes sense. It's a little late it's been a long week. Oh, I posted a little write up to help another member select bulb temps in another thread yesterday. It might help you out. No link since I'm on my phone - sorry.

 

[Autorotica]

Kevin,

First off thanks for all the different topics that you post on. There are consumer LED fixtures available that wont break the bank. I posted in this thread a picture of my shed with Costco LED lights.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270879&showall=1

Post #81.

I saw some higher lumen output lights at Sams club last week for $36 that would be what I go with next. I have 30 fixtures on a 20 amp 110v circuit. My shed isnt heated and the lights are instant on even in -10 degree ambient temp.

Don't settle!
Chris

 

[Platonic Solid]

Kevin, Here is the thread you started.
Have you looked through the layouts in my sig line below?
Aim for 90fc at 30" work plane. 4 rows of 5 F32T8 2-lamp fluorescent strip lights will accomplish this = 20 fixtures 40 bulbs.
If you have even the most basic electrical knowledge you can go LED (same amount and arrangement as fluorescent strip lights)

Lowest cost enclosure known to date: (unknown - removed due to insane vendor shipping charges)

Best value LED Bulb known to date: James Industry ZY-T8P-22W1200 - shineretrofits.com $10.50. If you go this route, only buy the ones with frosted lens. The clear lens is painful to look at.

Only problem with this LED bulb is they must be purchased in boxes of 30 and you need 40. Maybe you could update lighting in the old garage with the remaining 20 or sell them to a friend.

Since the LED tubes don't emit light at 360° like fluorescent tubes, they will leave your ceiling darker than fluorescent.

Without a detailed floor plan drawing, that's as far as I can go.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A large number of CFLs (20 is large) on one circuit can cause problems.

2 rows of dual tube, 4' T8 florescent "shop" fixtures. Cheap. Throw away the mounting chains. You can mount them to the ceiling with toggle bolts if you have to. If you are real concerned about shadows, you could go with 4 rows of single bulb fixtures, but many of them don't have reflectors and you need reflectors. Single bulb fixture ususally cost more than double bulb "shop" fixture.

I don't think you will live long enough to recover the cost difference for LEDs.

 

[Nathan b]

My brother got me 2-led for garage.. And I love eee them worth every penny....no flicker an when it's cold..and no squinting to look in engine bay. ........size t12 hard wired strate to wall..check one out before u buy fluorescent light

 

[Nathan b]

Here is a few pics..light on right is regular fluorescent light bulbs and the one on the left is led brilliant bright light..

 

[Platonic Solid]

Standard flat (paint sheen not physical orientation) white finished ceiling doesn't need reflectors.

 

[Kevin54]

Platonic......The floor plan is just 28'x30'x10' walls with scissor trusses. One side has my 2 post lift in it. There is the 6' overhang from my existing garage that is still in the main garage and I have 3 can lights in it as there will not be much going on underneath the overhang other than a possible TV or a small bench. And where I would put a bench (if I decide to) there is one can light directly above that area. Other than that, I may just keep my rolling toolbox in that space. But the main part I am concerned about is the 28' wide x 30' deep area.

Whether I go with LED's or fluorescents, (I think can lights are out) don't most come with a cord that plugs in instead of being hardwired? If so, then all I need to do is add my plugs into the ceiling. My buddy hardwired his corded lights, and mounted his up with toggle bolts.

I did just call my buddy to see what his garage size is and the number of fixtures he has in his garage. As soon as I hear back from him, I'll post up hat he has.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Whether I go with LED's or fluorescents, (I think can lights are out) don't most come with a cord that plugs in instead of being hardwired? If so, then all I need to do is add my plugs into the ceiling.

Well, yes that is true. It won't look "professional" mounted flush against the ceiling. It looks fine in my son's open rafter garage.

I guess you could put 1 ceiling (octagon) box at the front of the strip and plug the first fixture in (PLEASE SHORTEN THE CORD TO THE APPROPRIATE LENGTH !) and then "hard wire" the rest of the lights in that strip, using appropriate connectors/grommets and wire.

If you want get fancy, you could split the duplex outlet in the ceiling box into 2 different switched circuit and run 2 plugs into the first fixture. Wire every other one (or front half/back half) to each circuit. If you want to do it this way, run the feed from the panel to the ceiling fixture. Use an extra deep box. Then run 4 wire (plus ground) to the switch box. Might be cheaper to use use 2 - 2 wire pieces of romex, but I would color code them with tape (black, white/black, red, red/black ?).

 

[Platonic Solid]

Kevin, when you said: "If I go with fluorescent, I want to mount them right up against the ceiling." to me that indicates you want hard wired fixtures.

"Don't most come with a cord that plugs in instead of being hardwired?" No, that's your choice: hardwired strip lights or corded Shop Lights.

Interior dimensions: 27' x 29', Wall Height: 10', Pitch: 3/12
Garage door width - height - type - qty - location.
Ceiling pitch direction with respect to garage doors.
Workbench or other critical primary work areas.

This info would be very clear with a simple sketch. Deciphering text into an image leads to errors and wasted effort.

 

[Kevin54]

I was looking at 2 tube LED lights that is 4' long, and if I go with that, this is what I come up with. Mind you that the two inner rows will be on one switch, and the two outer rows would be on another switch.......or would it be better to have one side on one switch and the other side on another switch? I was thinking I had 30' of area but I only have 28'. My inner overhang is 8' and not 6' as I was thinking. The LED's would cost me more in the longrun, but the cost to operate would be cheaper. Even at that, a decent fluorescent light fixture is only about $15 cheaper per fixture. The LED's are $44/fixture. Times 16 comes to $720. But a decent fluorescent is $30/fixture and would come to $480 total, so $240 difference. I think I can live with that price difference and step up to the LED lights.

So what say ye all about that?

Platonic....I just now read your reply. My garage doors (2) are 10' wide x 8' tall and are on the right side of the garage (layout shown)

 

[Platonic Solid]

Since all fixtures are not created equal, please define LED fixture.

 

[Kevin54]

Since all fixtures are not created equal, please define LED fixture.

Not sure what you mean by define the fixture. I thought LED was LED When it comes to lighting, I am plumb dumb. I was looking at this at Lowes but can't find it on their website. This is HD's ad. The one I was looking at was $44 though. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Feit-Electric-4-ft-2-Light-LED-Utility-Shop-Light-73985/205701897

 

[Platonic Solid]

I thought LED was LED...

Ouch. That hurt, and then you linked to a Fiet fixture. That hurt even more.

OK, since you've earned some serious street cred with nearly 25,000 posts, I ran your layout. I say this cause my GJ Inbox is getting full and every time I do one of these I get swamped with requests - many from ppl with 0 posts. Anyway here's what Qty. 13 - 8ft 4-lamp F32T8 Fluorescent fixtures looks like (yes, that's 52 4ft F32T8 bulbs).

Fixtures near walls are 3ft from whatever wall they're parallel to. And garage doors, as in your sketch, would be on the right.
(all images are links with more info or just larger views)

 

[Platonic Solid]

If you want LED, the best $1 per lumen output right now is the James plastic housing lamp ($10.50 ea) installed in a PLT housing ($12.52 ea). See the Lighting System Comparison spreadsheet for links.
At 22W per lamp all the fixtures could run on one 15A circuit. You could get creative with switching and run 1 lamp in each fixture on it's own switch, thus each switch turns on 26 lamps (1 in each fixture).

52 James LED Lamps = $546, but you have to buy 60 so = $630
26 Fixture housings = $325.52
Total = $955.52 (leaves you with 8 spare LED lamps)

Total Lumens for 52 LED Lamps = 127,920

You'd have to install 34 Feit fixtures to reach that lumen output.

 

[Kevin54]

If you want LED, the best $1 per lumen output right now is the James plastic housing lamp ($10.50 ea) installed in a PLT housing ($12.52 ea). See the Lighting System Comparison spreadsheet for links.
At 22W per lamp all the fixtures could run on one 15A circuit. You could get creative with switching and run 1 lamp in each fixture on it's own switch, thus each switch turns on 26 lamps (1 in each fixture).

52 James LED Lamps = $546, but you have to buy 60 so = $630
26 Fixture housings = $325.52
Total = $955.52 (leaves you with 8 spare LED lamps)

Total Lumens for 52 LED Lamps = 127,920

You'd have to install 34 Feit fixtures to reach that lumen output.

Platonic......don't take this the wrong way, but I'm still lost. What you are listing, are those 8' fluorescent lights with 4 lamps in each, or are they 4' fixtures doubled up to make 8' fixtures? And where I'm getting lost is the fluorescent vs. LED. Some say to put LED, some say I won't recoup my money if I buy LED. I do know according to my electrician that I don't want to put in can lights. I have not seen any 4 lamp 8' fixtures anywhere, but I can get two lamp 8' fixtures but they are regular fluorescent.

Where would I find the James fixtures at to look at those online?

Like I said, I am plumb dumb when it comes to lighting, and I want to make my addition right and only do it one time. Currently in my existing garage, I have (20) 4' double lamp fluorescent fixtures from Menards that were like $11 each, and they seem to be adequate with my black ceiling and 8 foot walls (flat ceiling). Notice I said appear to be adequate. I know that won't fly in the new addition. And the older I get, the brighter it seems that I need things to be.

I also want to thank you for taking your time to help me out. I never venture up into the Lighting section, so I didn't know you had done all of those layouts. So I appreciate your helping me VERY much.

 

[motofool33]

the 8ft fixtures are essentially 2 4ft fixtures so 4 bulbs per 8 ft

these are flourescent fixtures, hes telling you to put LED replacement bulbs in instead of Flourescents.

here are the bulbs hes speaking of:
http://www.shineretrofits.com/james...luminum-housing-internal-driver-100-277v.html

led gets u more light, with less fixtures. in my mind thats cheaper as electricians are expensive.

 

[Platonic Solid]

motofool33 - (edited since plastic housing lamp no longer available due to overheating issues)$12.99 Aluminum Housing LED Lamp current leader as of 10/12/2015 (yeah - this stuff changes daily).

Kevin - To add to motofool's explanation, here is a link to a typical tandem fixture (and at $39.50 is a darn good price). (OK, sorry, I just noticed that add says min. qty.35, so that won't work for you, but the picture is accurate) This fixture would require about 0.91A (108W), thus 13 fixtures = 11.83A 1404W which just squeaks in to the 12A 1440W max of a 15A breaker.

(removed 1000bulbs dot com link due to excessive shipping charges)(best housing value unknown)
Each lamp requires 0.18A 22W, thus 52 lamps = 9.5A 1144W.

Is this clear?

 

[Platonic Solid]

Maybe this will make it clearer:

If you want to install hanging shop lights with cords and pull switches you'll have to do that research yourself. I'm only going to address hardwired permanent ceiling mounted fixtures in this post.

Suggested Fluorescent Option:

Qty.13 4-Lamp 8ft Tandem available @ HD for $45 ea.(linked) = $585

Qty.52 F32T8 Fluorescent Lamps @ glodalindustrial for $73.80 (30 pack, thus 2 packs) = $147.60

Total = $732.60 (leaves you with 8 spare fluorescent bulbs)

-------- OR --------

Suggested LED Option:

Build your own fixture. It's really really easy.
(below = as stated before):

52 James LED Lamps = $546, but you have to buy 60 so = $630

26 Fixture housings = $325.52
(removed 1000bulbs dot com as viable housing supplier due to excessive shipping charges)

Total = $955.52 (leaves you with 8 spare LED lamps)

 

[Kevin54]

Platonic....The last remarks you made, and the one Moto made cleared up my muddied mind.

And if I am reading this correctly, the first thing I need to do is get the fixtures from HD, then I can either go with the fluorescent tubes or go with the LEDS depending on the piggy bank......correct?

 

[bczygan]

Kevin,
Don't forget to decide on a color temperature.

I picked 6500K.

What is in the rest of your shop/garage?

Bill

 

[Platonic Solid]

Platonic....The last remarks you made, and the one Moto made cleared up my muddied mind.

And if I am reading this correctly, the first thing I need to do is get the fixtures from HD, then I can either go with the fluorescent tubes or go with the LEDS depending on the piggy bank......correct?

No. The first thing you need to do is decide whether you want to go Fluorescent or LED.
If you choose fluorescent then you can purchase the HD fixtures and fluorescent bulbs.
If you choose LED then you can purchase the PLT housing and LED lamps.

Do not purchase the HD fixture if you want to go LED.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Following comments refer to LED only:
If you choose LED I recommend 5000K CCT and Frosted Lens.
5000K LEDs are slightly more efficient than 4000K, however either one will serve you well.
You definitely want the frosted lens. LEDs behind a clear lens creates sharp point light source that is painful to look at.

 

[C2 Turbo]

Following comments refer to LED only:
If you choose LED I recommend 5000K CCT and Frosted Lens.

You definitely want the frosted lens. LEDs behind a clear lens creates sharp point light source that is painful to look at.

Does James Industry LED lamps fits this ^ criteria?

Kudos to you for putting up with all these lighting requests especially from ignorant people like us LOL

 

[Platonic Solid]

C2 - Yes, the James lamp is available in 4000K or 5000K and with clear lens or frosted lens.

 

[mopar440_6]

No. The first thing you need to do is decide whether you want to go Fluorescent or LED.
If you choose fluorescent then you can purchase the HD fixtures and fluorescent bulbs.
If you choose LED then you can purchase the PLT housing and LED lamps.

Do not purchase the HD fixture if you want to go LED.

Platonic, I've been following this thread pretty closely as I'm getting to the stage where I need to start making some lighting decisions for my shop build. Can you please clarify why standard fixtures won't work for the James LED tubes?

 

[Platonic Solid]

mopar - Standard T8 and T12 4ft fixtures will work with the James LED tubes. You just have to remove (aka: bypass) the ballast. The James lamp is wired one end to Hot (black) the other end to Neutral (white). It's really that simple. Since Kevin is buying new fixtures and not updating old fixtures, I recommended a low cost fixture housing that comes without a fluorescent ballast. You don't want to pay extra for a ballast that you won't use.

 

[vonhef]

I want to thank Platonic Solid and others who have contributed to this thread. I just ordered 60 bulbs & 30 fixtures to install into my shop. The information and links were valuable to my purchase decision.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I want to thank Platonic Solid and others who have contributed to this thread. I just ordered 60 bulbs & 30 fixtures to install into my shop. The information and links were valuable to my purchase decision.

Excellent! Please post pics of the housing when you get them.

 

[Kevin54]

Platonic.....I decided that I am going to go with the (13) 8' (double 4') fluorescents and the T8 bulbs for now. Then later on, if I decide to go with LED's, I can bypass the ballast like you recommended. I have to get with my electrician and tell him that he can wire up my outlets, but I am going to run my lights in conduit after my drywall is up.

I want to thank you very much for having patience with me, and for also coming up with a design that will work in my garage. Not too many members go to the extent you do to help people out, and to put up lighting designs like you have. You sir, are to be commended for doing all of that for free. Again, thank you very much. You are a stand up guy among the many members we have on here.

 

[C2 Turbo]

The PLT 55027 T8 LED fixture is a suspended unit. Could these or any other suspended fixtures be fixed to the ceilings?

Paying someone to hang these up would add to the price of the fixtures making them not as cost effective?

Thanks

 

[smalltown]

Platonic Solid, I also would like to thank you for providing so much information about which I, and apparently many others have so little information upon which to base our lighting decisions.

I would like to ask (if I may) two follow up questions.

First: Previous threads have reported that certain light fixture ballasts were generating RFI interference. Being that the light fixtures built specifically for LED lamps do not have a ballast, can I assume that RFI interference is not an issue with LED lamps configured this way?

Second: In the past I have purchased what I would call "generic" CFL lamps from big box stores, and in my opinion they do not seem to last all that long. In your opinion is there any such concern regarding "generic" LED lamps?
Generic in the sense that they are not a GE or Philips etc.

 

[Platonic Solid]

The PLT 55027 T8 LED fixture is a suspended unit. Could these or any other suspended fixtures be fixed to the ceilings?

Paying someone to hang these up would add to the price of the fixtures making them not as cost effective?

Thanks

I've been unable to figure out why the PLT housing defines mounting as "suspended". It's just a metal box with 4 lamp holders. I suppose it might not have pre-punched mounting holes, in which case I'd just drill 2 holes and call it a day.

 

[Platonic Solid]

smalltown -
1. LED lamps and fixtures have drivers instead of ballasts. Drivers generate RFI just like ballasts, sometimes worse than ballasts. I'm not aware of any residential UL Class B sound rated LED drivers/lamps/fixtures with the exception of the military grade LED fixtures which are made to a completely different standard.

2. It's the wild west of LED lamps and they're all made in China. Name brand doesn't amount to much in this category. The best you can do is stick to UL Listed and DLC Qualified products purchased from established distributors. This technology is moving so fast that most products are technologically obsolete by the time they hit the store shelves.

 

[oldtinsmith]

I'm using 100watt (equivalent) daylight CFL's (1600 Lumens, 6500K with a life of 8000hours). When I originally built my shop (about 15 years ago), I installed 100watt incandesent bulbs. About 10 years ago, I began replacing the incadesents with the CFL's. Would it be/should I replace the CFL's with a replacement LED bulbs?... If I'm stepping on toes (highjacking) here, feel free to delete this post. ...Oh, my shop is 24ft. x 40ft. with 10ft ceiling and a 6ft. by 20ft. bump out with a 8ft. ceiling.

Doug

 

[Platonic Solid]

Doug, how many bulbs do you have and are you satisfied with your current layout, lumen output, lamp life, lamp warm-up time and electricity usage?

 

[Platonic Solid]

Thank you for the kind words Kevin. Both LED and Fluorescent options have their merits. The fluorescent option you’ve chosen will work particularly well with your sloped ceiling as the 360° light output of the fluorescent bulbs turns your ceiling into a giant reflector providing exceptional shadow free light distribution. This has the added benefit of making the space feel larger. As mentioned earlier, to take full advantage of these features, painting the ceiling with flat white paint is recommended.

 

[oldtinsmith]

Platonic Solid,
To answer your questions. 1) two 60watt (equivalent) bulbs in the rear bump out and twenty eight 100watt (equivalent) bulbs in the main shop area, all CFL's. ...2) the layout has been that way for about 15 years, and I'm quite used to it that way. That said, I'd be willing to make SOME (as in maybe minor) changes if it meant better all around lighting. ...3) lumen output? I never even thought about that with the incandescent, and when I heard about the incandescent going bye-bye, I began installing the equivalent CFL's. ...4) lamp life wasn't/isn't too bad IMHO. At this time, I'm seeing more bulb burnout now than I did before. ...5) warm-up time doesn't seem to take long at all. After all these years I may be just used ti it. ...6) electricity usage is of more concern when running the AC! My dad used to say,"if you have to ask how much it will cost, you can't afford it! LOL! ... The only problem I have with my lighting is the bright slightly blue tint. After doing sheet metal layout for a period of time, I find I start squinting my eyes! I hope this helps! ...Oh, maybe I should add that in six months I'll, be seventy years old and all my lighting problems may be my age! LOL!

Doug

 

[barnee]

I'm in the same analysis for my build (LED vs T8), and my decision is largely being influenced by my desire to have blazing light levels but be able to dim them when I don't need as much light. I'm assuming that the LED strip lights can be placed on a dimmer but don't see that discussed much. I know fluorescent cant.

I'm surprised more people don't consider that distinction when making their choice unless you cant dim the LED lights mentioned above.