Low-yield well solutions?

[Fatboy148]

Actually, the pump guy wrote “1hp 7” on my pressure tank when he installed the pump last year. I read that as 1 hp/7 gpm. I may be wrong about the 7, but I distinctly remember him telling me that since the pump was so far down in the well that it needed to be 1 hp. The one he replaced was a 3/4 hp.

I would read that as 1 horsepower, seven stage pump. You shouldn't just pull a pump off the shelf on a hope it will work properly. The manufacturer's have charts that actually size the pump for your site and well. They consider things like, well flow, depth of the well, distance water needs to be pumped. If the pump isn't sized for the application, it will not perform properly.

I am sure your manufacturer has a similar chart, here' is the link to Gould Pump info.

https://www.gouldspumps.com/Tools-and-Resources/Pump-Selection-System/

Based on some of what you have written, I would be looking for a new "pump guy".

My question would be.... if it worked for the past year, and now it doesn't, what changed?

 

[TractorJeff]

1. Check for leaks all the way down to the pump.
2. The bladder tank should have a Schrader Valve on the Bladder to check air pressure and release or fill.
3. Check to insure the piping to the Pressure Switch is not plugged. "Mine failed about 15 years ago due to rust and build up plugging the 1/4" pipe and switch"
4. 1Hp submerged pump is probably necessary to push water up the 480 feet to surface.
5. Ask if pump can be dropped lower?
6. No where in this Thread/Posts have I seen a comment of air in the house lines due to the pump running out and sucking air as it tries to pump water?
7. Toting water to a house in 2021 is a BIG BANDAID in my opinion!
8. Horses and Lawn can be watered from a Creek, NOT the Well!
9. What is the actual diameter of your well pipe?

 

[racerboy]

I would read that as 1 horsepower, seven stage pump. You shouldn't just pull a pump off the shelf on a hope it will work properly. The manufacturer's have charts that actually size the pump for your site and well. They consider things like, well flow, depth of the well, distance water needs to be pumped. If the pump isn't sized for the application, it will not perform properly.

I am sure your manufacturer has a similar chart, here' is the link to Gould Pump info.

https://www.gouldspumps.com/Tools-and-Resources/Pump-Selection-System/

Based on some of what you have written, I would be looking for a new "pump guy".

My question would be.... if it worked for the past year, and now it doesn't, what changed?

Thanks. The only thing that changed is that I ran out of water after having a lawn sprinkler on for about 90 minutes which I never do. It’s also the time of year when my neighbor runs their irrigation system every morning. Not sure if this has any bearing on anything.


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[Showkey]

Even if your well really is 500’ deep, for the cost of those tank systems you could have another new well drilled, be a couple grand ahead, and not just put a bandaid on a bad well. Given that your pump/fracking guy failed once, I’d ask around for the old driller that’s been around 50+ years and that neighbors swear by.


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Regarding your low yield and neighbor’s great yield: Check w/ your county or state water resources. They may have aquifer maps to assist w/ well locations. Its not unusual to have a near dry hole just a few hundred yards from a 12gpm well around here.

Drilling a new well on the same property is no guarantee that there’s water deeper or several 100 ft in any one direction.

I live 1000’ from the largest river in Wisconsin have a strong deep well and same for all the neighbors but one. We are NOT pulling river water. That neighbor is 1000’ from me as low yield well, he has drilled three wells on 4.5 acres, fracked 2 of the 3 and still has low a very low yield. Not mention spent at $10-20k on each well. Currently It’s enough water to work with witha conservation and large storage tank. We have a large amount of granite in the area......but.......2000’ away it turns to sand and gravel. The well drillers have no answer other bad luck and soil/rock conditions on his property don’t have much water.
It has been mentioned that one of the three well was a surface water with supply vein from the river. That was evident by the water yield was more or less dependent on the river level.

 

[racerboy]

1. Check for leaks all the way down to the pump.
2. The bladder tank should have a Schrader Valve on the Bladder to check air pressure and release or fill.
3. Check to insure the piping to the Pressure Switch is not plugged. "Mine failed about 15 years ago due to rust and build up plugging the 1/4" pipe and switch"
4. 1Hp submerged pump is probably necessary to push water up the 480 feet to surface.
5. Ask if pump can be dropped lower?
6. No where in this Thread/Posts have I seen a comment of air in the house lines due to the pump running out and sucking air as it tries to pump water?
7. Toting water to a house in 2021 is a BIG BANDAID in my opinion!
8. Horses and Lawn can be watered from a Creek, NOT the Well!
9. What is the actual diameter of your well pipe?

Thx Jeff
1. I’m assuming that I have to wait for them to pull the pump to do this (which I hope is happening tomorrow).

2. I did check the bladder pressure on Monday, after shutting off well pump and draining the tank. It was 33 psi.

3. Ok. I can do this. I’m pretty sure they replaced the pipe last year when they put in the new pump but I will take a look.

4. Ok. Good information to know.

5. The pump guy said something about possibly lowering the pump. I’m not sure how close to the bottom of the well can they go? The well is 500’ according to the town records.

6. Is there a way to bleed any air that may have got in the lines?

7. Couldn’t agree more! This seems a bit ridiculous to me, especially since nobody around me is having these issues.

8. The horses are at my mother-in-law’s property. I definitely won’t be watering the lawn again. An interesting side note is that the fellow who built this house (he lives up the street now) lived in it for the first 4 yrs, and started to put in a Toro irrigation system. He went as far as putting all the sprinkler heads in the lawn and running the lines through the basement wall to an outside control box. He never finished and now I wonder if this is the reason? Although the well does seem to have been in better shape 20 yr ago.

9. I’ll check the well pipe diameter in a few min.

I was just about to pull the trigger on a new Kubota 2601 with an FEL and BH when this happened. [emoji4] Thought that might interest you based on your username. [emoji846]


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[TractorJeff]

Kubota 2601 - Cool! A guy always needs one to do his lifting!
Not to side track - but I am the local "Fix or Repair" guy mostly because people don't want to maintain their equipment.

 

[racerboy]

So here’s what I just did:
1. Turned off the well pump
2. Ran a faucet until the little gauge was at 42 psi (I wanted it under 50)
3. Turned the nut on the pressure switch 3x ccw (I read that this was ~ 10 psi)
4. Turned well pump back on.

Gauge rose to 49 psi and then the switch clicked off (and my little final light turned off).

Should I lower it a bit more to around 45 just to be safe? Is that enough pressure to use a shower?

I didn’t touch the differential spring, so I’m guessing that means my cut-in should now be at 29 psi. I know I have to bleed air out of the tank to less than this, but wanted to ask about whether I should lower cut-out even more first.


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[dcg9381]

50psi is plenty anyway, the adjustment is easy. If I am remembering correctly, I dropped mine down to 45 years ago.

50psi is enough at the water main, but this pump may be a substantial distance from the house or the water may travel through lines that have high drag.
The adjustment is easy (just changing the spring pre-load) - but a pump that is still running at 50psi isn't going to do any better with a switch set at 55psi. The pump and the switch have to match in terms of operating pressure.

 

[dcg9381]

Gauge rose to 49 psi and then the switch clicked off (and my little final light turned off).

Should I lower it a bit more to around 45 just to be safe? Is that enough pressure to use a shower?

What is the model of your pump? If it runs continuously (at any specific pressure) without any water use, then something is wrong.

45 psi is more than enough to take a shower. But your pressure is reduced by how far the pump is from the house, size of the water lines, and if the house is above the pump level. I run 70 psi at my well pump because it needs to pump 260' and about 20' up, so the pressure at the "water main" on the house is less. Depending on line size, it can be a lot less.

 

[racerboy]

I’m not sure what the model of my pump is. My receipt just says 1hp, 7gpm, 230v 2-wire.
It did cost $1945. Not sure that helps.



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[racerboy]

What is the model of your pump? If it runs continuously (at any specific pressure) without any water use, then something is wrong..

It seems like the pump kept running because it could never react the 60 psi cut-off. Once I lowered that to 49 psi, the pump did cut-out at that psi. There is still something wrong because for the last 11 months it worked fine at the 40/60 setting.

I also adjusted the bladder tank down to 27 psi. I did this after I closed the main to the house and the well inlet valve. When I turned the power back on and opened all the valves it took about 4 min to reach 49 psi, and then it shut power to the pump. Does this time period seem reasonable?

 

[PCustoms]

Your pressure tank and gage are in your house, correct?

 

[racerboy]

Yes. They are in my basement.


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[Sevenhills1952]

I didn't read all 90+ posts, and I'm not a well expert. Just 68yo diy'er growing up on a hand dug 40ft well on a farm, 2 springs and a 2ac lake. Underground well house, couple miles of pipes going everywhere, two houses, both springs and lake.
1) did you check tank to meter pipe?
Imho there are two separate things: pressure and volume. Here (80 ft well, Goulds 3/4hp pump) we have good pressure, low volume.
2) what is your volume?
Here we can draw about 35-40 gallons continuous at one time at about 50psi...then that's all she wrote. Wait 20 minutes and repeat.
Wife just now used water, shut it off, I filled a 5 gallon bucket. Well pump ran soon as bucket was full, ran for 12 seconds and shut off.
3) how old is your pump?
Pumps get weak. My 1/2hp pump I replaced with 3/4 Gould's was about 20 years old. (Yes, I know...3/4 is too big for 80ft well)...but man it works great. That 1/2hp was a generic one from Lowes. It acted exactly like yours. I noticed well light staying on longer and longer. I spent hours replacing pressure switch, checking everything, messed with pressure lowering it (bandaid approach)...finally replaced pump. We just had horse stable completed so I knew demand would be greater.
In 40 years here I've never needed 40 gallons of water all at once. We probably do use 100-200 gallons a day but space the demands out.
4) forget pressure. How's your volume? Before you ever had trouble, did you check it?
I filled a small above ground swimming pool here years ago no problem. At midnight I adjusted hose nozzle so it was maybe a gallon or so/minute...but that's 500 gallons overnight. Pump cycled on and off occasionally. In a few days it was full.
One last funny thing:
Growing up grandparents next door lived in a large 2 story house they had built in 1940. Grandad had a hydraulic ram in our creek (overflow from lake), ram was near a spring.
His house had a 2000 gallon water tank in the attic (it's still there, impossible to remove it). The hydraulic ram pumped spring water uphill about 600 ft away and maybe 60 ft elevation spring to attic tank.
His house everything was gravity fed from the tank. It wasn't efficient which is why he had well dug 6 years later. Two guys up the road, a dwarf and a tall skinny guy. Dwarf had a mattock and shovel with handles cut short. Well is 3 ft diameter, he would dig filling a bucket on a rope the skinny guy pulled up and dumped. They hit water at 35 ft or so, kept digging all he could. They used concrete pipe to line it.
Grandad fell through the wooden top once which is why today it has a heavy greenstone slab over it.[emoji2]


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[Kev442]

4 minutes seems a bit long to build that pressure, but not horrible. A quick look at bladder pressure recommendations shows 18 to 28lbs, so you are still good there.
Honestly, (and I'm sure I'll take flack for saying it), I think 60 psi is/was too high and strains the system way to hard at 480' feet deep.
I still think they will find connection leaks when they pull it out.

 

[Bretny]

On drilling a new well or even asking your neighbors...my neighbors have a 600ft (sulpher) well and 280'(runs out in drought years) none of them are more than 600ft from my 50ft deep well that never runs out. In fact its seasonally artesian.

It may sound like you have more of an equipment issue if the pump didnt stop running to begin with. I would have the pump pulled and checked, replaced.

If it is a water issue My parents have a neighbor who put in his own cistern useing food grade tanks, a float vale, timer and a jet pump to supply the water to the house from the cistern in the basement. It didnt cost more than $3k.

 

[BukitCase]

RB, the next troubleshooting step now that you have it turning on and off - let it come up to pressure and shut off while you're watching the gauge - just as it shuts off, GENTLY tap the gauge and see if the needle moves (ALL these gauges tend to be a little "sticky" due to the rack and pinion gears that connect the bourdon tube (pressure sensor) to the needle that indicates pressure - those parts are INTERNAL inside the gauge housing) -

Then WATCH (and gently tap) the gauge (make sure NOBODY is using water during this test) - if the gauge drops in pressure (with or without tapping) then there is a leak SOMEWHERE between the pump's check valve and whatever valve(s) is on the other side of that gauge.

Doesn't really narrow things down much, sorry... Steve

Edit - if this condition has gotten worse over time, it sounds like a pinhole got started and has progressed enough to make a noticeable change...

 

[racerboy]

RB, the next troubleshooting step now that you have it turning on and off - let it come up to pressure and shut off while you're watching the gauge - just as it shuts off, GENTLY tap the gauge and see if the needle moves (ALL these gauges tend to be a little "sticky" due to the rack and pinion gears that connect the bourdon tube (pressure sensor) to the needle that indicates pressure - those parts are INTERNAL inside the gauge housing) -

Then WATCH (and gently tap) the gauge (make sure NOBODY is using water during this test) - if the gauge drops in pressure (with or without tapping) then there is a leak SOMEWHERE between the pump's check valve and whatever valve(s) is on the other side of that gauge.

Doesn't really narrow things down much, sorry... Steve

Edit - if this condition has gotten worse over time, it sounds like a pinhole got started and has progressed enough to make a noticeable change...

Thanks BC. Another question that’s sort of related to your tap test. If it comes up to pressure to where it shuts off the pump (now @ 49 psi) and nobody uses any water no sink. No toilet. Nothing. Should it stay at that 49 psi? If it slowly drops, does that mean water is leaking out somewhere?


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[American Locomotive]

Thanks BC. Another question that’s sort of related to your tap test. If it comes up to pressure to where it shuts off the pump (now @ 49 psi) and nobody uses any water no sink. No toilet. Nothing. Should it stay at that 49 psi? If it slowly drops, does that mean water is leaking out somewhere?


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That or the air bladder in the tank is leaking air externally.

 

[racerboy]

Just some anecdotal info. I just took my first shower since this all started. The gauge was around 42 psi. My shower lasted 8 min. I went down to the basement after drying and getting dressed, fully expecting the pump to be ‘on’ but was surprised that the pump had come on, pushed pressure up to 49 psi, and shut off by the time I got downstairs. I don’t know if this is good bad or indifferent but thought I’d pass it on.


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[BukitCase]

Loco makes a good point; the valve stem on my pressure tank went south about 4 years ago, wasn't a valve core so needed to replace the entire stem - found that this kit

Amazon.com

allowed me to do it WITHOUT having to completely un-plumb and dis-assemble the pressure tank... Steve

Your shower experience could be explained by backing off the pressure setting - same size hole with lower pressure setting = quicker shutoff and slower leakdown...

 

[racerboy]

Ok thanks. For some reason I couldn’t open that Amazon link.

Again, just so I fully understand. Once the system reaches cut-off pressure, it should, in theory, hold that pressure until someone uses water. If I turn power off to the pump when I go to sleep tonight and the pressure is at 49 psi, then tomorrow morning when I get up, it should still be there, correct? Assuming that nobody uses any water.

I spoke to the pump guy and now he seems to think all is well (pun intended) and said he wasn’t coming to pull the pump until he speaks to his driller (tomorrow). Not feeling the love. I wonder if I need to look for another pump guy.


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[Showkey]

Thanks BC. Another question that’s sort of related to your tap test. If it comes up to pressure to where it shuts off the pump (now @ 49 psi) and nobody uses any water no sink. No toilet. Nothing. Should it stay at that 49 psi? If it slowly drops, does that mean water is leaking out somewhere?


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It should stay at 49 PSI indefinitely........if it drops there’s a leak. Prime suspect* is the pitless adapter at the well casing or the piping and fitting between the well and the home. If the adapter had steel fitting vs brass/bronze it’s very likely to fail over time. My adapter was brass but used a steel or iron fitting to connect the black plastic pipe to the home.


* Assuming there’s no leaks in the home like the toilet flapper valve.

 

[racerboy]

Thx. The pump guy replaced that pitless adapter last year. Hopefully it’s not leaking there.

I’m going to monitor that gauge like a hawk to see if there is any leakdown occurring.

The pump guy (PG) is just waiting for his driller to be available to discuss what to do. He thinks that there is nothing wrong with any equipment but that my well just doesn’t recover fast enough. The fact that we haven’t had any meaningful rain up here in a month or so doesn’t help.


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[Mike in Ohio]

I did not read all of the replies, I have a 25 foot hand dug well at my current place, I am having some pump issues of my own right now.

To the op, get an experienced OLD GUY well driller who has worked in your area his whole life to diagnose your problem. When I built my last house my well was 165 feet deep and could not be run dry in the test. The houses across the street were down 600 feet because they used out of town guys. At $15 a foot that is a big expense. Their water was no better than mine. My guy told me " There is no good water under here no matter how deep you drill, this is what you need to make it potable." And he was right. The wells for the older houses in my neighborhood were between 145 and 165 feet deep. Wells are an area where experience is king, the old guys know their stuff.

 

[jrsavoie]

Thanks Chapter21
The real purpose would be to ensure there is adequate water for the house. I’m not that concerned with irrigation. I like your idea of a storage tank, which might be perfect for irrigation purposes because I wouldn’t need it in the winter (I live in north NJ). I did read about underground storage tanks to use to hold water for the house that sort of get trickle-filled. But those are not cheap and need some pretty extensive excavation.


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I'd look for a much bigger tank than 275 gallon. We used to go through a couple thousand gallons at a crack watering trees.

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just that old guy is current on today’s conditions as because growth in use (gallons pulled) and number of drill wells in an area can dramatically change in a few years let alone decades.


1000 acre farm irrigation system 5 miles down the road might be pulling 8000 gallons per minute ..........10,000 acres farm uses 10 times that rate.

 

[Chapter21]

I'd look for a much bigger tank than 275 gallon. We used to go through a couple thousand gallons at a crack watering trees.

OP says he rarely waters things. As I've pointed out before big tanks are nice if you want to use a lot of water...I see nothing at all that indicates this guy needs a tank that big. I would probably use minimum 500, but if it's a continuous low flowing well, a 275 gallon tank is enough for a family of 4.

Average person uses 200 gallons per day, that includes showers, laundry, toilets, and car washing. People who irrigate tend to use more, but most people do not do that.

 

[Chapter21]

Also, I think it goes without saying, but to the OP - make sure you use low flow shower heads, low flow toilets, low flow faucet aerators, and a high efficiency washing machine/dishwasher.

Pretend like you live in CA.

 

[racerboy]

Spoke to PG today. Still no ETA on when well driller might be coming by for a discussion. I talked to my neighbor with the 2 wells. He told me that one of his wells is at 350’ and the other one is at 500’. He said neither of his wells are great producers but they are good enough. lol. He said he would send me the name of the outfit that drilled his second well. He also talked a little bit about the people who find water using a divining rod. I always though that was fictional. Do people really do this for a living?


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[Chapter21]

He also talked a little bit about the people who find water using a divining rod. I always though that was fictional. Do people really do this for a living?

Well, I mean they have "professional" psychics. They can probably tell you where the water is about the same.

 

[racerboy]

Lol. That’s what I thought. How does a well driller decide where to drill? Does it help to know where the ‘good’ wells of my neighbors are located?


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[American Locomotive]

Aquifers are like like contained rivers, snaking their way through the ground up and down, left and right. They're confined top, bottom, and on the side. The only way to know where water is, is to drill a bunch of wells and then create a contour map of the water table. If you drill enough wells in a large enough area, you can get a pretty good idea of what the local water table looks like.

If you have geological data of the local strata, you can identify structures underground that are likely to contain an aquifer. You can also drill test bore-holes to take a look. However if you don't have any existing data on a particular area - it's basically luck.

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That’s all true and accurate..........but..........OP already knows there’s issues his area........he had to frack the existing well.
Generally 50’ in any direction does not change the yield. Especially in fracked well. No real luck, no water means, no water .......an experienced driller will know depths in certain areas........they also know going deeper is not always productive.

Depending on lot size the driller is going to pick the spot based on distance ( pipe/wire) from the home and distance from the septic etc.

 

[racerboy]

I just got off the phone with the guy who drilled my neighbor’s second well (500’). He basically said the same thing. The decision on where to drill the well was based on the location of the house, the septic and where can the truck get into.

His recommendation would be to drill another well nearer to my neighbor’s well, but that’s nit really possible because of a wooded area between our properties. My neighbor actually suggested I consider drilling further back/up in my property, closer to the neighbors behind me because they both have much better wells than either me or my neighbor with the two wells.

The driller I spoke with isn’t doing any drilling right now due to problems with his rig, but he recommended an outfit called Bucks County Drilling. He said it would run $15 a foot to drill the new well.

I am also going to call my pump guy’s driller directly. I’m assuming there won’t be much of a price difference but I sort of want somebody who does this for a living to take a look at the lay of the land and give me guidance. I’m not sure I should be the one to pick the spot.

 

[racerboy]

This photo shows my current well. The red X above the generator is where my neighbor’s second well is located (through about 50-75’ of trees. The driller said to get as close as possible to that well (which is not a great well)


My neighbor suggested to go up and back on my property. The yellow circle is where my current well is and the red one is the area he is suggesting. The gravel area is where the previous owners had a swing set.

This photo shows the same area, only you are looking at it from the other direction.



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[larry4406]

Is this USGS site of any help to you?

Centralized Water Data in WDFN

Water Data for the Nation (WDFN) is being modernized to simplify our data delivery and enable all data collection categories to be found from the same pages and tools. This post will orient you to where to find water data in the modernized WDFN.

waterdata.usgs.gov

 

[tdkkart]

Just for reference, I believe the average, for a 4 person household, is approx. 5000 gallon/mo, and when we lived in town our useage used to come pretty close to that. SO, 166 gallon/day average. One of the white "totes" you pictured above is approx. 270gallons, or almost twice what you need on average. Set up a system to pump from your well into that tank(or 2 if you're really nervous) at a manageable rate, then pump from the tote to your house as needed. It will fix your problem and cost a hell of a lot less than $4000-5000.

 

[racerboy]

Thanks tdk
I was thinking that the Well Manager system looked like an elegant plug-n-play solution, but it basically does exactly what you said at a pretty high cost. If I had one of those storage tanks (or 2) would these go before the well pressure tank? How would the well know when they were full? Would you need a float that tells the well pump to turn off, or would the existing pressure switch take care of that.

Lastly, I’m not sure I could fit one of those 275 gal totes into my basement. The 210 gal ones that the Well Manager uses are more rectangular than square so they can fit through doors. I imagine I can find one like that I’d I look. I know they want ~$1500 for just the tank, and that seems excessive to me.

Also, in looking at where the well pipe comes through the basement wall to the pressure tank, there is shut off valve. Should there be? There are 2 shut-off valves from the pressure tank into the house, but nothing between the well and the pressure tank. I’m assuming that if you drain the tank and get the pressure down to 0, there shouldn’t be a lot of water spilling out of the well pipe since it’s not under pressure.


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[jrsavoie]

They usually do not put a shut off valve ahead of the pressure switch.

To keep from having the pump run when the pressure switch is not getting water. The pressure switch is usually at the bladder tank.