Lubricants on Threads

[Gingger22pm]

Hi guys, first timer looking for advice please on what people use for lubricating threads, mainly to stop corrosion or damage/picking up.

Here in the UK we refer to Copaslip, copper based paste. I'd use it for most things like steel to steel nut and bolt or steel into alloy. For high temperatures I'd use nickel based, probably Bostik Neverseez.

But on reflection is copper a bad idea with steel to alloy, does it make the chemistry any worse? And would nickel be better?

Also what do you guys use and where? Better alternatives/ideas welcomed!

 

[38Chevy454]

I use regular silver anti-sieze (which is mostly aluminum or zinc powder I believe) unless it is a hot area like exhaust. Then the copper or nickel based for increasing temps.

If I understand your question, does the metallic component of the anti-sieze have any corrosion effect? The simple answer is not really. For corrosion you have to have an electrolyte of some type, usually this is water. The grease component of the anti-sieze kind of seals out any moisture, and does not conduct electrically as an electrolyte. Therefore no real corrosion. If it really is a concern, then anti-sieze where the metallic component is closer to the other metals (steel, or zinc plated steel for most hardware) would be a good choice.

Ever notice that anti-sieze multiplies once you put it on something and pretty soon it is everywhere?

 

[G_P]

Ever notice that anti-sieze multiplies once you put it on something and pretty soon it is everywhere?

Anti seize is a sicence defying product. If you put some on a bolts threads, minutes later you will find it covering your entire hands and all over your clothes and all nearby tools!

 

[rburke65]

Agreed.... Anti-sieze and pipe dope.....super glue to name a few.

 

[sberry]

A can of anti seize goes a long way here, we spray every bolt we install with common penetrating spray and in crisis field service use it on aluminum pipe threads, doesn't seize.
We have a lot of equipment we keep a long time. I had a master work for me, said I never really thought all that much about it with common threads but made a believer out of him. We never end up with stuck or seized threads. Only time we use anything else is some pipe thread sealer and anti seize on exhaust parts.
I have a can with foam if we can keep track of it,, a little light oil and a splash of spray, touch bolt or nut to it.

 

[kbs2244]

Do not use it on lug nuts.

 

[Duck tape Bill]

Do not use it on lug nuts.

...why not?

 

[jaye944]

I was unaware of this till recently.

What happens is that when you TORQUE them up, they dont get tightened to the correct torque; in effect you OVER torque them.

Shops use an impact drill with an adaptor; they are usually out of tolerence,
so when they are supposed to do up to 80ftlbs its usualyy over accurate, (lets just say 90ftlbs); now add ANY kind of lubrication to lug nuts and instead they can over tighten WAYYY more than that.

Case in point; could not get my lug nuts off and NEITHER could the garage; they ended up having to break them.

This also screwed up my wheel bearings and warped my discs.

try yourself, get a lug nut dry and a lug nut lubed and see HOW much further you can tighten it up BEFORE the torque wrnch goes click.

ONLY use copaslip on the hub surfaces to prevent them from sticking, BUT NEVER on the actual threads

EVER

The

...why not?

 

[Falcon67]

Depends on why you are lubricating the threads. Various lubricants - oil, moly, and such - change the amount of torque required to achieve proper bolt stretch for correct holding power. If torque and holding power are not that important, then cad plated fasteners and spray metal preservative are as good as anything. If you have to smear something on, axle grease works as well as anything.

 

[Gingger22pm]

Thanks for this GJers.
Not so worried about the torque values/properties of lubricated fasteners but more trying to combat corrosion especially where some thread is left exposed, on the bolt once the nut is tightened onto it for example.
And also interested in what you guys use when you have different metals being fastened such as steel into alloy as mentioned.
As to anti seize going everywhere except where you wanted it to I am totally with you.....

 

[smiffy]

For high accuracy stuff the instructions will give a wet or a dry torque wet being lubricated dry being completely dry bear in mind some bolts will have a film covering the bolt for rust prevention this should be completely removed if a dry torque is given

 

[GCncsuHD]

Do not use it on lug nuts.

...why not?

I was unaware of this till recently.

What happens is that when you TORQUE them up, they dont get tightened to the correct torque; in effect you OVER torque them.

Shops use an impact drill with an adaptor; they are usually out of tolerence,
so when they are supposed to do up to 80ftlbs its usualyy over accurate, (lets just say 90ftlbs); now add ANY kind of lubrication to lug nuts and instead they can over tighten WAYYY more than that.

Case in point; could not get my lug nuts off and NEITHER could the garage; they ended up having to break them.

This also screwed up my wheel bearings and warped my discs.

try yourself, get a lug nut dry and a lug nut lubed and see HOW much further you can tighten it up BEFORE the torque wrnch goes click.

ONLY use copaslip on the hub surfaces to prevent them from sticking, BUT NEVER on the actual threads

EVER

The

It's not that you never should use it on lug nuts (and any other dry torque spec fastener) but rather that you must use common sense if doing so. Most fasteners are spec'ed with dry torque ratings. A good rule of thumb is that if you have lubed threads to reduce the dry torque spec by roughly 20-25%, of course it varies with the actual type of lube used on the threads-anti/never seize, oil, graphite, coated bolts, heck even loctite is a lubricant before it cures. Without adjusting for the reduced friction on the threads means you have applied greater tension to the bolt, potentially crushing what it is fastening, or yielding the bolt, potentially to the point of failure.

 

[Tyberius]

I use anti seize on my lugs.

I rotate my tires or swap winters for summers depending on the vehicle. I also do my own brakes. I chase the female threads with a pipe cleaning brush and polish the lugs with the grinder. I always use anti seize on my lugs and all mating surfaces and hand torque the lugs to the low side of the range with a torque wrench. Then I carry the torque wrench around for a few days and check the torque so that they are not loose.

I don't think a proper anti seize will change the torque properties of a thread. Maybe plain old grease or oil will.

ETA: I see above, that torque setting are sometimes given a dry and wet torque. I seem to remember that now. I also remember maybe something about torque characteristics of different thread conditioners (loctite, anti-seize) but not particularly about the adjustment of torque. Though loctite does state that their product will give a more accurate torque.

I was unaware of this till recently.

What happens is that when you TORQUE them up, they dont get tightened to the correct torque; in effect you OVER torque them.

Shops use an impact drill with an adaptor; they are usually out of tolerence,
so when they are supposed to do up to 80ftlbs its usualyy over accurate, (lets just say 90ftlbs); now add ANY kind of lubrication to lug nuts and instead they can over tighten WAYYY more than that.

Case in point; could not get my lug nuts off and NEITHER could the garage; they ended up having to break them.

This also screwed up my wheel bearings and warped my discs.

try yourself, get a lug nut dry and a lug nut lubed and see HOW much further you can tighten it up BEFORE the torque wrnch goes click.

ONLY use copaslip on the hub surfaces to prevent them from sticking, BUT NEVER on the actual threads

EVER

The

 

[GCncsuHD]

I don't think a proper anti seize will change the torque properties of a thread. Maybe plain old grease or oil will.

Do a little research...it's not the torque that changes, but the tension applied to the bolt for the given torque. And anti-seize typically has an even greater effect than most oils and greases.

The fact that you are hand torquing it on the low side of the torque range is a good thing, though you should probably be torquing it significantly lower than that to get the same result.

 

[Tyberius]

Do a little research...it's not the torque that changes, but the tension applied to the bolt for the given torque. And anti-seize typically has an even greater effect than most oils and greases.

The fact that you are hand torquing it on the low side of the torque range is a good thing, though you should probably be torquing it significantly lower than that to get the same result.

Good to know, thanks.

 

[pgreen]

What these guys are saying about lubricated threads is correct. Mostly. GC has it the closest.

To make it simple: When you tighten a bolted joint, you will get a combination of friction on the threads, mating under head bolt surface, and bolt stretch. The only one that really counts is the bolt stretch.

If the bolt does not stretch (in it's plastic region, normally), your bolt can vibrate loose relatively easily. This amount of stretch is not easily measured, so it is usually set up using torque.

When you tighten a bolt, you have friction, and clamp load. Those are each percentages of the energy that is put into the fastener to create a properly tightened joint.

Now, if you use exactly the same torque, but lubricate threads, your friction goes down, and your clamp load will go up. To a certain point, where you will either break the fastener, stretch the fastener to or beyond yield, or you crush the mating parts.

I have seen this in production environments where all of the sudden they are breaking bolts left and right. Many times it boils down to a different coating on the fasteners themselves. Even a different manufacturer of the supposed same coating and same bolt can vary often.

So, not trying to scare anyone from using a lubricant on fasteners, just know that it does change the clamp load, and if it is set up close to the yield point of the fastener, you can easily break bolts using correct torque.

And yes, I do this for a living..... (hope this makes sense, I have been interrupted like 5 times while typing this)....

 

[Mike Miller]

Truth.^^^^^

 

[38Chevy454]

What these guys are saying about lubricated threads is correct. Mostly. GC has it the closest.

To make it simple: When you tighten a bolted joint, you will get a combination of friction on the threads, mating under head bolt surface, and bolt stretch. The only one that really counts is the bolt stretch.

If the bolt does not stretch (in it's plastic region, normally), your bolt can vibrate loose relatively easily. This amount of stretch is not easily measured, so it is usually set up using torque.

When you tighten a bolt, you have friction, and clamp load. Those are each percentages of the energy that is put into the fastener to create a properly tightened joint.

Now, if you use exactly the same torque, but lubricate threads, your friction goes down, and your clamp load will go up. To a certain point, where you will either break the fastener, stretch the fastener to or beyond yield, or you crush the mating parts.

I have seen this in production environments where all of the sudden they are breaking bolts left and right. Many times it boils down to a different coating on the fasteners themselves. Even a different manufacturer of the supposed same coating and same bolt can vary often.

So, not trying to scare anyone from using a lubricant on fasteners, just know that it does change the clamp load, and if it is set up close to the yield point of the fastener, you can easily break bolts using correct torque.

And yes, I do this for a living..... (hope this makes sense, I have been interrupted like 5 times while typing this)....

Only thing I will add is that most bolts are torqued in the *elastic* deformation range. This is the spring force, ie tension, that gives the clamping force to the joint. Now some bolts, called torque to yield or similar names, are torqued past the elastic range and into permanent deformation or plastic range. You still have a spring tension component, but the torque past elastic is done because it gives a very uniform clamping force. It also takes a lot of the variability out of torque in elastic range. BTW, this permanent deformation of torque to yield is why these bolts are not to be reused - the bolt is permanently deformed a little bit.

Torque values in themselves are a poor indicator of the clamping force, as evident by the discussion of the effect of lube on threads. Any bolted joint the goal is some desired clamping force. It just so happens that measuring actual bolt stretch is not easily done in high volume, production environments, or outside strict lab controlled conditions. So torque is an alternative way, but it does have more error.

 

[pgreen]

Exactly what I was attempting to say.


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[Boomer343]

Two of my pet peeves ...dielectric grease and anti seize spread around like peanut butter on a sandwich.

I have never found any mfg, OE or aftermarket, that stated anti seize was to be used on wheel studs and lug nuts.

If you are a shop and doing this then if and when a wheel comes off you better have some deep pockets because it isn't industry standard.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Do not use it on lug nuts.

...why not?

Lug nuts are an interference fit. Any sort of lube on a lug nut can and will allow it to back off.

Tommy

 

[Tyberius]

Good to know, thanks.

The more you know. I will still use it on the hub though. Anything you can use to prevent corrosion of the stud?

http://www.permatex.com/resources/faqs/answers/5-lubricants

Does Permatex® suggest applying anti-seize to lubricate lug nuts when installing or tightening the nuts?
-
Permatex® does not recommend the use of any anti-seize product on wheel studs. Many people have used anti-seize for this applications, however, there is the potential for over-torqueing and therefore, higher clamp loads and potentially dangerous bolt stretch. Because of the lubricity of anti-seize, there is a tendency to over-tighten because of the ease with which the nut will bear down on the lug. For this reason, even if you try to torque the nuts to factory specs, the clamp load may become too high depending on the type of bolt, size and manufacturer.

http://tires.tirerack.com/tires/Anti-seize

We suggest removing the wheel and applying a thin coating of antiseize around the axle hubs to help prevent rust and permit easier removal when it's time to rotate your tires. Do not apply antiseize to the lug hardware or studs

 

[Jeff95TA]

Lug nuts are an interference fit. Any sort of lube on a lug nut can and will allow it to back off.

Tommy

I'm not sure what you mean by interference fit. You don't mean interference fit as in press fit?

 

[GRX]

Greetings from the US Gingger22pm.
As to your question about corrosion and different metals, I believe nickle based Anti-seize (Nickelslip) is more for high temperature and pressure applications. Nickle is also recommended instead of copper on Stainless steel & titanium to help prevent galvanic corrosion. There are many kinds. Some have graphite lubricants which is why they stain everything so bad.

[edit]
As to your question about protecting bolt and stud ends, for extreme situations you might try rubber line end caps. Liquid plastic dip as used on pliers handles works well too.

 

[Gingger22pm]

Hi GRX, many thanks for the welcome.

I'm working on cars, often classics. With the weather being ****** miserable on occasion here in Scotland rust is an ever present problem, especially underneath. Hence my interest in something to use during assembly.

As you say caps etc. probably best in extreme conditions, fortunately we're not there yet. But the dis-similar metal problem is an issue.

 

[CJKaz]

The torque question has been covered in depth.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226077

In particular the formula to determine torque and the effects of various lubricants on the desired value.

The chemical reaction question is answered by researching "electrochemical series" and "galvanic corrosion".

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I'm not sure what you mean by interference fit. You don't mean interference fit as in press fit?

Eh, I didn't really use a good term for what I meant. Generally speaking, the friction between the tensioned stud under stretch & the lug nut are what keeps things tight, although recently I've been seeing technical articles stating the VERY sparing use of copper based anti seize is starting to be considered acceptable.

Tommy

 

[Shipfittin]

I use anti-sieze regularly when I am bolting things together, it's mainly a habit I have gained from my job. Though I have never applied it on my wheel studs/ lug nuts. I figure if the manufacturer's did not put it on there for a reason.

It is amazing to me though, how many people do not realize that applying a lubricant or anti-seize will change your torque specifications.

 

[sberry]

Torque values in themselves are a poor indicator of the clamping force, as evident by the discussion of the effect of lube on threads. Any bolted joint the goal is some desired clamping force. It just so happens that measuring actual bolt stretch is not easily done in high volume, production environments, or outside strict lab controlled conditions. So torque is an alternative way, but it does have more error.

I have a Snap torque wrench manual,,, they knew this before there were computers, they call for lightly lubricated threads. You never know when a dry thread stops turning because its tight or its seized.
Wheel studs rarely come loose but are often not clamped tightly. There is one main reason they went to dry lugs,,, they gave up trying to explain to the world how to oil a bolt. They finally just picked the most simple way and tried to make a standard.

 

[sberry]

It is amazing to me though, how many people do not realize that applying a lubricant or anti-seize will change your torque specifications.

No,,, this they seem to comprehend,,, what is amazing is tech schools don't bother to teach what makes a bolt work. John Deere has a fastener manual for their tech school that should be required reading for every sprout with a wrench. 40% or the torque on a good light oiled NC bolt may be eaten in friction, the factor is and can be unknown when its dry.

 

[sberry]

Case in point; could not get my lug nuts off and NEITHER could the garage; they ended up having to break them.

This also screwed up my wheel bearings and warped my discs.

Where did you learn this? They didn't seize your nuts because they were oiled and free,, they were dry seized and likely zipped on at hi speed with air gun, actually friction welded, it happens all the time.

 

[J Persons]

I think that ARP specifies their head and main studs and bolts be lubed prior to torquing.

 

[Badger 13]

I use anti seize, but certainly agree with what G P said...

 

[GYPSY400]

Hi guys, first timer looking for advice please on what people use for lubricating threads, mainly to stop corrosion or damage/picking up.

Here in the UK we refer to Copaslip, copper based paste. I'd use it for most things like steel to steel nut and bolt or steel into alloy. For high temperatures I'd use nickel based, probably Bostik Neverseez.

But on reflection is copper a bad idea with steel to alloy, does it make the chemistry any worse? And would nickel be better?

Also what do you guys use and where? Better alternatives/ideas welcomed!

In getting back to the original question.. Copper based lubes would be a bad idea where aluminum is concerned.. If you mix copper with aluminum and add water, the copper wins and the aluminum corrodes.

This is also a good reason not to use pressure treated lumber in an aluminum boat.

And yeah, I use a SMALL amount of anti- seize on lug nuts.. So in 3 years from now, I can get it back off.. I haven't had an issue yet.. I find that rusty, dry threads don't torque properly. Even though the torque wrench clicks, your not sure if the nut is actually tight to the rim.



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[Dynamic86]

Anti seize is awesome stuff for stuff you take apart regularly. There are several places in our mill where big bolts are run on and off several times a shift and without some kind of thread lubricant the threads will not last. I use it everywhere because many things I maintain need constant periodic inspection, it makes my job easier.

I'm not sure about down south but in canada in the millwright trade the theory of a bolt in one of the first things we learned. It was actually quite eye opening how a bolt is works,the different thread pitches and the history and uses behind them. It was actually interesting to me anyways lol.

 

[kazlx]

Eh, I didn't really use a good term for what I meant. Generally speaking, the friction between the tensioned stud under stretch & the lug nut are what keeps things tight, although recently I've been seeing technical articles stating the VERY sparing use of copper based anti seize is starting to be considered acceptable.

Tommy

You just described how basically all threaded fasteners work, not just wheel studs...

I've used anti-seize on studs before that were nasty and had to go back together for some reason or another, but if they are installed correctly and in good condition, it isn't needed.

 

[ez-duzit]

Best anti-seize. We use it on yachts because of the very corrosive salt environment and on dissimilar metals.

 

[n8n]

I think that ARP specifies their head and main studs and bolts be lubed prior to torquing.

Rods too... possibly all? Right way to do it IMHO as torque to stretch relationship will be more consistent than "clean and dry" - darn near impossible to achieve on old fasteners not internal to an engine anyway.

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[mechanicalmoron]

...why not?

It's a lot better to have your lugs seize and have to replace a stud, than it is to have them anti-seize on the highway.

But the people saying it increases the torque are wrong. It makes the exact same torque, because there's less friction between the threads, put more tension on the lug/stud - less energy is being used to overcome friction, and more is going into pulling.

Anti-seize being safe or not really, if it's a good product, should depend on the bolt being intended for it - the torque spec may overload and compromise the bolt, even if you're spot on - and obviously if you go low, you don't have the necessary friction to keep it safely on, even if the bolt is loaded to it's max.

 

[sberry]

And yeah, I use a SMALL amount of anti- seize on lug nuts.. So in 3 years from now, I can get it back off.. I haven't had an issue yet.. I find that rusty, dry threads don't torque properly. Even though the torque wrench clicks, your not sure if the nut is actually tight to the rim.

This wont hurt a thing. We nev er see damaged threads or bolts that were lubed but lotso stuk rusty mf or dry and galled. Its super easy to stick a fine thread. The modern penetrant or spray lube is almost the perfect juice. We just took off some I should have got a pic of, been under water for years and came right apart.
We have a Mack truck and at first figured the fasteners would be a chore but they had great lube and torque qc when it went together and they came right apart. A neighbor company had trouble with lugs on cement trucks,, no wonder, fukkin things squeak when they go round,,, with the logic that we don't want oil cause it will make them back off,,,, well,,,, hows that been working for ya? Spray some boar jiz on them and no more problems.
We routinely remove fasteners that been weathered now for 20 yrs, loosen with end wrench and come right apart.

As the man said about the head and rod bolts where its more critical,,, they lightly oil. Its simple, it keeps it from sticking. Lets it roll over and smooth the flaws vs stick and gall under pressure.