MaxJax Transport, Install, Impression, and Comparison

[Joe From NY]

Nice job VM. Looks like we have a few things in common

I used these 6" extensions on the lift, makes it just high enough for me to comfortably get under the Z.

Be careful with those cinderblocks. They are not designed to load from that direction. You are only using three vertical members for support rather than the five it is designed for. Dont get under it on those blocks.

 

[Rodbuilder]

Be careful with those cinderblocks. They are not designed to load from that direction. You are only using three vertical members for support rather than the five it is designed for. Dont get under it on those blocks.

Thanks but I just had them sitting there to set the car on for a minute while I put the extensions on the lift. Vettes are too low to fit them under so I have to lift it about 10".

 

[troublemaker427]

Where did you get the 6" extensions ?

Nice job VM. Looks like we have a few things in common

I used these 6" extensions on the lift, makes it just high enough for me to comfortably get under the Z.

These 90* elbows make the hoses lay down flatter on the floor.

 

[Rodbuilder]

Where did you get the 6" extensions ?

Got them from Dannmar, they have both 3" and 6" I use them all the time, just enough height to make it a little more comfortable under the car and they work great for lifting pick ups and suv

 

[demoderbydave]

How much do they get for the extensions?

 

[petee_c]

from a practical perspective.... I wonder if it would be easier to temporarily mount the hoses to the ceiling to get them out of the way, and then unhook them, if you wanted to remove the posts for storage.

I'm thinking about either ziptie'ng them, or using velcro cable ties, or even building a false channel, where you could lay them up in, and paint them ceiling colour, instead of rebleeding them?

P

 

[petee_c]

I've also had MaxJax for about 6 months now, very pleased. Recently completed my "permanent" install. Here it is in action:

540i6,

Just wondering what the distance is between posts (inside measurements). I'm researching posts and trying to figure out how close I can get them, while still being able to get in/out of the driver door on a daily basis vs. removing and 'storing' one of the posts after use.

P

 

[540i6]

from a practical perspective.... I wonder if it would be easier to temporarily mount the hoses to the ceiling to get them out of the way, and then unhook them, if you wanted to remove the posts for storage.

I'm thinking about either ziptie'ng them, or using velcro cable ties, or even building a false channel, where you could lay them up in, and paint them ceiling colour, instead of rebleeding them?

P

The supplied hoses are very short, if you want to keep them attached to the posts and store them away on the ceiling, you'd still have to disconnect them from the pump, which would require system rebleeding anyway.

Just wondering what the distance is between posts (inside measurements). I'm researching posts and trying to figure out how close I can get them, while still being able to get in/out of the driver door on a daily basis vs. removing and 'storing' one of the posts after use.

I can't remember now, I'll measure tonight and post. I set my posts so that they would be at a good distance to lift both of my cars, they had to be set so that the second car would fit comfortably in the other bay and I also had concrete expansion joints to worry about, but it worked out pretty good. My car gets parked between the posts, if I park more towards the right post I can get out relatively comfortably, but I've found that it's easier for me to stop the car so that I could open the door all the way, get out, put it in neutral and push the rest of the way.

 

[Dolfan]

540i6,

Just wondering what the distance is between posts (inside measurements). I'm researching posts and trying to figure out how close I can get them, while still being able to get in/out of the driver door on a daily basis vs. removing and 'storing' one of the posts after use.

P

I can tell you that I put my posts in at 124" and you can see in all the photos of this thread how that works. I find it tight for many of the cars, the vette is a bit tough due to the long doors, I have to put the seat all the way back, then recline it a bit to get out, when you back is hurting this *****.

If I had it to do over I would go 128" that extra couple inches would help with entry, but also allow the arms to swing into position better on cars with wide jacking positions, the C5 and C6 corvettes are pretty wide and the jacking is right from the edge of the car practically.

 

[tenorplayer23]

Dolfan - Great OP. Thanks again for posting the various looks and comparisons between your two jack systems.

I too have a C5, 6sp. wZ51 handling pkg, plus a full size 08 Impala that I would like to be able to lift, much as you have demonstrated here. Appears to be moderate equipment to do basic lifting tasks....the very kind I need for my indoor mechanics work.

My garage: 3 car; one 2-door bay; one 1-door bay. Bare concrete floor with center drain and appropriately sloped garage floor for drainage into the central drain. All ~ 10 yrs. old.

May I ask you some specific questions? (I apologize if they are redundant within the posts, somewhere).

1) I see the arms of the MaxJax settle under the recommended "lift points" of the car?? (aka, with the C5...on the jack tabs). Do you use the lifting pads/pins that are used with floor jacks with the MaxJax? How do you specifically address the lift point on your vette's, as well as, your other vehicles? (For instance, Eckler's or Mid-America Corvette both sell lift pad/pins for floor jacks to be used with the vehicles lifting pads under the vehicle.)

2) How thick did your concrete floor need to be to support the MaxJax posts and needed anchor bolts? What was the drill depth for the anchors, please?

3) Could you tell me a couple of height measurements within your garage?

>> From the floor to the inside of the overhanging garage door when it is all the way up?

>> From the floor to the ceiling above the bay where your MaxJax is located?

>> Finally, the most verticle MaxJax "lift height" you use for your C5 Z06 to raise it to it's maximum height while retaining proper clearance with the ceiling/overhead door, etc.?

4) Approximately how far away is the hydraulic system/controls located from the hydraulic cylinders at each post? Just want an idea about your application length to understand what I would need to do...and see how they compare with what the factory req'ts are.

5) Finally, while I have read through the threads and taken note of the comments; perhaps you could list (if again, my apologies) some of the installation tricks or learned knowledge points that you believe are key for a quality install? That would be most appreciated.

Sorry for the long list of questions, but you application seems to mirror what would be most practical for my garage size/height, along with the vehicles you are lifting....and for what purposes.

PS - can I ask....what material is your floor surface done in??

Look forward to your response shortly. Again, thanks for your insight, in advance.

Regards.

See ya,

Bob

Hey, I'm the OP author and I put together this video that I sent in to the MaxJax folks, shows the lift in operation.


<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UKPNUxcQkqo" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Hope this helps.

 

[540i6]

540i6,

Just wondering what the distance is between posts (inside measurements). I'm researching posts and trying to figure out how close I can get them, while still being able to get in/out of the driver door on a daily basis vs. removing and 'storing' one of the posts after use.

P

I have mine set at 115.5" measured at the outside edges of the base plates.

 

[Denee007]

HI! I set mine at 118", I played pulling cars in, and it seemed to be my number! lol I'm quite thin and can get out easily, but my husband~ no way!!
dne'

 

[RipperFox]

After looking at your bike attachment, i have an inspiration to weld up my own now.

I plan on welding one up too. That thing looks so easy to fab, and way to pricey for 4 pieces of metal. But, I also need to fab someting to get this up in the air too.

Plan on putting one set of holes at the very edge of the garage, so I can lift the mower up outside to power wash under the deck, and do the "hard to get at" grease zerks.

 

[RipperFox]

Question:

For those that have used the epoxy anchors. Do the seem to be a better product than the stock anchors?

I am going to be installing about 4-5 more locations for my MJ, and will be needing to by more. So why not go with the better choice.

 

[Garage5.9]

Im sure its probably been asked but what is the minimum garage ceiling height ?

 

[RipperFox]

Im sure its probably been asked but what is the minimum garage ceiling height ?

Have seen 8ft installations, kinda a waste I would think, but I think for most people 9-9 1/2 is the most practical.

The biggest obstacle for me is the garage door chain drive the is hung at 8 1/2 foot for with a 10+ ceiling. The previous owner/design/builder of this house was an idiot about some things.

 

[Denee007]

I beg your pardon, but it is not a waste in an 8' garage! It beats the hell out of jackstands any day! Many people don't have high ceilings, like me. I'm so proud of my Maxjax I could jump for joy! Working under a car on jackstands is reall tough, but this is by far superior~ and Jay Leno also promotes it as well for people like me with low ceilings.
Just letting you know~ ; )
dne'

Have seen 8ft installations, kinda a waste I would think, but I think for most people 9-9 1/2 is the most practical.

The biggest obstacle for me is the garage door chain drive the is hung at 8 1/2 foot for with a 10+ ceiling. The previous owner/design/builder of this house was an idiot about some things.

 

[Denee007]

A little upgrade to my Maxjax today, and thanks to Capt Van and of course everyone here! I put the pump unit front right and lengthend the longside hose by 120"s(Northern tools hose 28.oo and a union), and put two 90degrees fittings at the base of the columns. Now I don't have to move the pump, just drive a vehicle in, get the vehicle in the air!! The lines are out of the way running beneath the baseboard, the visible line is just not in my way either, but maybe I can put a carpet over it or something. Moving the pump the old way, each time was kind of a pain! The lengthening of the hose didn't impact the lifting, I did of course have to bleed the air out, but no biggy! I'm Rockin baby! ; )
Musclecar enthusiast!
dne'

 

[dmeadow]

Question:

For those that have used the epoxy anchors. Do the seem to be a better product than the stock anchors?

I am going to be installing about 4-5 more locations for my MJ, and will be needing to by more. So why not go with the better choice.

I think so. They go in cleaner (less spalling) and seem to be much more solidly placed. No worries about them pulling out. They are way more expensive ($18 apiece, plus the epoxy), though, so 4 or 5 more locations are going to be very costly.

 

[Dolfan]

I think so. They go in cleaner (less spalling) and seem to be much more solidly placed. No worries about them pulling out. They are way more expensive ($18 apiece, plus the epoxy), though, so 4 or 5 more locations are going to be very costly.

I didn't realize those were that expensive as Dannmar provided me with a set, but I think they are great.

They give you a little more play with your hole sizes which is absolutely critical with the standard provided anchors. I guess if I had to buy these myself to do several install locations I might use a mix of maybe 3 regular and 2 epoxy anchors per location. It would manage the cost but make life a bit easier and I like the certainty of the epoxy anchors.

 

[SuperSocket]

Installed !!



Works great. Dannmar DID mark the wrong ports on the fluid distributor and that cost me about 2 hours of troubleshooting.

For the Grandsport and the Z06 owners here, how far did you set your posts apart? Are you able to get in and out easily and would you consider leaving the posts and parking between them on a weekly basis (weekend car)?

 

[Falcon67]

Denee, you are an inspiration for those of us with low ceilings.

 

[Dolfan]

May I ask you some specific questions? (I apologize if they are redundant within the posts, somewhere).

1) I see the arms of the MaxJax settle under the recommended "lift points" of the car?? (aka, with the C5...on the jack tabs). Do you use the lifting pads/pins that are used with floor jacks with the MaxJax? How do you specifically address the lift point on your vette's, as well as, your other vehicles? (For instance, Eckler's or Mid-America Corvette both sell lift pad/pins for floor jacks to be used with the vehicles lifting pads under the vehicle.)

2) How thick did your concrete floor need to be to support the MaxJax posts and needed anchor bolts? What was the drill depth for the anchors, please?

3) Could you tell me a couple of height measurements within your garage?

>> From the floor to the inside of the overhanging garage door when it is all the way up?

>> From the floor to the ceiling above the bay where your MaxJax is located?

>> Finally, the most verticle MaxJax "lift height" you use for your C5 Z06 to raise it to it's maximum height while retaining proper clearance with the ceiling/overhead door, etc.?

4) Approximately how far away is the hydraulic system/controls located from the hydraulic cylinders at each post? Just want an idea about your application length to understand what I would need to do...and see how they compare with what the factory req'ts are.

5) Finally, while I have read through the threads and taken note of the comments; perhaps you could list (if again, my apologies) some of the installation tricks or learned knowledge points that you believe are key for a quality install? That would be most appreciated.


PS - can I ask....what material is your floor surface done in??


See ya,

Bob

OK,

1 - I use a set of "hockey puck" lift pucks for the Z06. These are needed as you know to protect theside body panels. I don't use any of the MaxJax pads I let the arm contact the jacking pucks. I my case that is all the room I have due to lowering of the car.

2 - Dannmar recommends 4", 2500# concrete which is pretty typical for most residential slabs. The drilling depth is through slab drilling just in case you need to push anchor through, and I did need to do this.

3 - Floor to ceiling in my case is 11' 2" plenty of room. My garage doors are below that 11' 2" ceiling by only about 12-14". With a corvette on the MaxJax and this ceiling you have no clearance issue above, I have raised my Z06 with the hood open.

4 - I wheel the power unit just behind the Z06, it sits about 2' behind the car when I hook up the lines, This I would change with extensions to the hydraulic lines, when I get time!

5 - IMO the number one "trick" is a quality masonry drill bit and proper hammer drill. If either of those are not up to par it will be difficult and could also result in improperly drilled holes that make the standard anchors difficult to set. I wish I had rented a good hammer drill/rotary hammer. I also started my drilling with a small pilot drill about a 5/32 bit just to get a good plum and centered start to the holes.

Hope I got your questions.

 

[Dolfan]

For the Grandsport and the Z06 owners here, how far did you set your posts apart? Are you able to get in and out easily and would you consider leaving the posts and parking between them on a weekly basis (weekend car)?

I did 124" on mine and I have a C5 Z06, I wish I had done 128" or so. It depends on how mush space you have between parking positions and where the doors are when parked.

 

[Dolfan]

A little upgrade to my Maxjax today, and thanks to Capt Van and of course everyone here! I put the pump unit front right and lengthend the longside hose by 120"s(Northern tools hose 28.oo and a union), and put two 90degrees fittings at the base of the columns.

Denee, I think I may do something similar as I would like to get the power unit more out of the way. I've got a Northerntool just around the corner. I checked the website, can't remember for sure, was it 1/2" hose? The hoses I've found at Northern are rated t 3500PSI, I think that is fine.

 

[Dolfan]

OH, found it in my own dang post!!!!! 3/8" 300PSI minimum, so these from northern would work fine.

 

[Denee007]

cool! yes, the 3/8" and you'll need the union. I got the 90 degree fitting from a local hydraulic shop. I'm so happy with my setup now! I wish you the best!!
dne'

OH, found it in my own dang post!!!!! 3/8" 300PSI minimum, so these from northern would work fine.

 

[Denee007]

A double cheers in that case! It's nice to be excited about something! The older I get the more difficult it is getting excited But I am excited about this lift! Imagine how I'd be about a full sized lift!

Denee, you are an inspiration for those of us with low ceilings.

 

[Denee007]

My brother thought it was kind of neat how my garage door just fit up to the rear of my Mustang, of course when the Mustang is in the other direction ,I can open the garage door all the way! The other photo just shows the more cleaned up floor space and not having to move the pump everytime I want to move a car in or out! Plus when disconnecting a quick coupler makes a little mess of ****** fluid, not a lot, but enough!
cheers to my MJ buddies!! dne'

oh, I never took down my garage door opener, I do have a liftmaster, but just haven't taken down the old opener!

oops showed this photo earlier!

 

[les_garten]

I'm thinking I want this Jack. I have 3 cars and a Motorcycle that I work on. One of my cars "may" be an issue.

I called the MaxJack folks and talked to whoever the phone was passed off to and was not impressed by the answers I got. The guy didn't ask me a single question and I'm trying not to risk my life here!

I have a 2002 Toy Landcruiser, the weight is according to specs around 5122 Curb weight. So it looks like it should be at 85% of the Jacks rated capacity if my Curb weight is correct. The left side is a little heavier than the right because of Fuel tank location and steering. I would Love to be able to work on the LC on the Rack.

It would be nice if there was a list of cars compatable with the rack. I can get this for Windshield wipers??

Is there a contact at MaxJack who would be able to answer technical questions or any other questions, because they don't answer emails off their webpage. I wanted to find the closest freight depot to my Location and their Mailbox closely resembles a black hole!

What weight are the Jacks designed for? I thought they were usually desgned for 1.5x their advertised or something like that.

 

[Denee007]

Hey, Call Joe Vermillion @ 800-261-7729 x 103 and [email protected] is his email address. Tell him dne' sent you! ; ) Joe is very nice to speak with and very knowledgeable! It's a family owned and operated business and they try harder than larger companies! I lifted our Cx9 and it weighs 5500lbs. The MJ is rated at 6000lbs. of course all this is based on how well you put your anchors in too! Just do it correctly and you should be able to meet the weight specifications. I hope this helps you~ if you need someone to talk to in helping to make a decision~ I'd be more than happy to tell you what I know, and there are many many people here very happy with the MJ! ; ) it's taken me a little while to become wary of being under my lift, but not anymore! I Love this thing!
dne'

 

[les_garten]

Hey, Call Joe Vermillion @ 800-261-7729 x 103 and [email protected] is his email address. Tell him dne' sent you! ; ) Joe is very nice to speak with and very knowledgeable! It's a family owned and operated business and they try harder than larger companies! I lifted our Cx9 and it weighs 5500lbs. The MJ is rated at 6000lbs. of course all this is based on how well you put your anchors in too! Just do it correctly and you should be able to meet the weight specifications. I hope this helps you~ if you need someone to talk to in helping to make a decision~ I'd be more than happy to tell you what I know, and there are many many people here very happy with the MJ! ; ) it's taken me a little while to become wary of being under my lift, but not anymore! I Love this thing!
dne'

Thanx for the info, I'll call him monday!

I had a friend of mine, who is a Pro Mechanic. He had a 4 bay shop. I rebuilt my Porsche 930 there. He let me use a bay with a Big 2-Post lift for a couple months(he's a good friend). I had never used a lift before and It was like being on a roof and looking over the edge off the 10th floor at first, I was leary when I was under it at first. But got used to it and it was nice to push a button and you go round and round!

About a year after I finished my car, I was talking to him, he had his Vette up on the lift tinkering around and one side collapsed. The Vette slid over and landed on one of the Posts. Total mess.

Nobody was hurt, but there was car damage though. That lift was spec'd I'm sure over 10,000 pounds. All it had on it was a little Vette. So it can happen on a big Lift.

Anything can fail, I understand that. The thing that made me nervous about the guy on the phone at MaxJack was, he didn't really drill down on what I had. The Jack has a 6000# limit and a 1500# arm limit.

So, a 5500# Pickup truck could overload an arm, as far as Marketing specs are concerned. My LC is almost dead on 50/50. But I'll be close to 1400# on 2 of the arms.

There's some Videos on Youtube showing Jacks failing which are "FUN" to watch.

I think my LC wull be within the specs, they will just be using most of the specs, if that makes sense.

 

[Denee007]

HI Les! (is that your name? I love your Avatar!) Well, I understand your concern, and perhaps Joe or another guy I spoke with, Ryan, can help answer your questions. Joe wasn't available the other day when I ordered a Tailbone creeper. It sits about 13" so rolling under my mj will be much better than this cheapy seat I have.
My '57 Chevy only weighs 3500, but looks like it would weigh alot more, but it is a large vehicle or a lot of mass. Anyway, when I did put my Cx9 on, my mj did creak a little more, but still had no trouble. I have my columns set at 118" (some people set them closer, some further apart, I felt that closer was better) and when lifting on the CX9, the lift pads are placed on the pinch moulding so the lever arm "thing" keeps more pressure vertically than say haviing the arms fully extended and picking up on a frame deep under the car. I don't have a degree in physics, but I think common sense goes a long way ; )
My Cx9 is new and it will rarely be on the lift, but I like to think I can lift anything I want! when I want! But you do have to ask yourself realistically~ How often would I be putting each particular vehicle on this lift? Mine are more for my classic cars as they working on seems like all the time!!! newer cars for oil change, Cv axles, brakes, etc, don't even need to be put at the top of the lift, just go to the height that the job can be completed).
I think the most important part is the drilling of your anchors!
I'm just having a discussion about your concern about the arm limit with my husband. These arms, let me tell you, I have to use a dolly to move them around! They are heavy! They make them look lightweight on some of the advertisments.
My common sense tells me the weight is dispersed/equalized through out the arms, so no one arm is "feeling" the weight. I do make sure my vehicles are strategically placed on the lift so that the weight is distributed equally as possible, taking in consideration of the motor being the heaviest, then lifting the car about a foot, shaking the car somewhat, then proceeding with reasonable caution. I still have some stands to order that are medium sized that I will place one in the front and one in the rear for added protection/stability, etc.
You're going through what many have contemplated before buying a lift. I was kind of the same! These are genuine concerns, but once installed~ you will love it! I was going back n forth between a scissor lift and the MJ~ I'm so glad I chose the mj!
oh, when I email at Joe's email address, they probably get flooded with emails, so probably be best to contact him. They do talk to their techs or engineers when I have questions they themselves cannot answer, so be patient ; ) Let not your heart be troubled, everything will come out ok!
dne'

 

[Dolfan]

I can second some of Dne's comments.

I think knowing the vehicle's weight distribution is important, my Z06 is about 51/49 so just centered is good, but my wife's FWD VW Passat is certainly heavier in front so I account for that when I position he car.

As for the car being rated or certified for a model of car, I'm not aware of any lift company that does that, I believe they are all rated for weight but not specific cars/truck being lifted, I think that is up to the operator.

As for the arms Dne' is right they are far heavier than I expected they would be when I unpacked the lift. Hones;t the weight of the arms is one of the reasons I leave mine in place. For me to break down the entire lift, and place the posts, etc. is more work than I want to do when needing the lift. I understand if space was a big issue that one might need to do that, for me I just move the hoses and power unit out of the way and treat the MaxJax like a short, permanent two post lift.

 

[les_garten]

Hi,
Nice Chebby! I Like the Color a lot. I sure thought those '57s weighed well into the 4000 pound range for some reason.

I've thought you should set the lift up so that your widest vehicle was correct with the least amount or arm extended to be able to work on it. Hopefully that would be the heaviest vehicle as well.

Having the arms extended makes it easier to work on the car, but I would think would be leveraging more pressure on the jack.

I think I am going to find a Race Tuning shopand see if they have one of those fancy 4 wheel scales to see exactly what I have to work with.

Drilling anchor holes is old hat for me, I've been mounting Telecommunications racks in heavy concrete since '95. I've got a pretty nice Bosch Hammer drill that drills so fast it will make your head swim!

I'm sure I will get one of these and will feel better about it after a phone discussion with Joe.

-- Les

 

[PowerDubs]

We have 2 VW Phaeton in my family. They weigh over 5300#'s. The lift lifts them just fine. No sign of flexing or straining.

But..after raising one of them the first time on the lift and lowering it on to the bars to take the load off the cyls, we finished our repair and afterward when removing the bars noticed they had bent from the weight.

We still continue to use them like that for over a year now.. but it just shows the force behind the mass.

I would never suggest leaving the car raised above the bars (not resting on them) and expect the bars to 'catch' the weight if a cyl blew out.

 

[les_garten]

We have 2 VW Phaeton in my family. They weigh over 5300#'s. The lift lifts them just fine. No sign of flexing or straining.

But..after raising one of them the first time on the lift and lowering it on to the bars to take the load off the cyls, we finished our repair and afterward when removing the bars noticed they had bent from the weight.

We still continue to use them like that for over a year now.. but it just shows the force behind the mass.

I would never suggest leaving the car raised above the bars (not resting on them) and expect the bars to 'catch' the weight if a cyl blew out.

Those bars look like aluminum, is that true?

 

[540i6]

Those bars look like aluminum, is that true?

No, they are heavy steel rods.

 

[les_garten]

Thanx!

 

[Denee007]

I just love to see fellow MJ owners chime in! I'll have you to know Les, I was very skeptical about the MJ and shopped and shopped, but kept coming back to the MJ! Between this site and it being shown on Jay Leno's site, that's pretty much what sold it! Then Joe Vermillion was just as nice as he could be to deal with. Be sure to mention "group buy" off of this site~ I got the lift for 1800 shipped to a local shipping place. I called the other day for possibly buying the 6" extensions, but they are about 40 bucks each, so I think I"m going to go ahead and drill holes, but when I'm able to roll the lift outdoors when we pour concrete, I may splurge and buy the extensions.

If you should decide to purchase it, it would be a good time for extending the hoses, putting 90 degree fittings at the base of the columns, etc. there's a lot of information on this, however, you can "upgrade" at anytime down the line. I just got tired of having to move the pump roller cart, disconnecting a quick coupler, then move a car out. Now I just drive in, put the car in the air. I wanted to put the pump on the wall permanently ,but again, may be moving it outdoors from time to time. I'll be posting what we're doing here after I'm sure we're doing it.

Ps; I had to relook up the weight of my '57, and it is really only about 3200 lbs, but it does look much heavier. My '67 mustang is lighter, but not by much~ amazes me.

As far as additional stuff: HF had their roll around carts/tool box cart for 99 bucks at their sidewalk sale, and then I also bought the Tailbone creeper from geusa, same place that sells the MJ. Joe wasn't there, but Ryan sold it to me, and explained that geusa is a family owned business, I didn't know that!

Mustang is back on the lift~ steering problems with my new rack n pinion!
Cheers!
dne'