Mystery tool, 1937

[Old Man Roger]

I don’t get it?

 

[four.cycle]

I don’t get it?

Don't lose any sleep over it.
It's doubtful you ever consumed enough alcohol to be able to figure out Bukowski.
An old girlfriend loaned me that book, along with a volume written by Anais Nin ("Delta of Venus").
That was most certainly an interesting episode in my life.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Great discussion, thanks!

Before I unveil a reference that will really put my arm in a sling and make it hard to get my ego's already overinflated head through a doorway, I thought it only courteous to inform you of a long, rich tradition we have here on Garage Journal for whatzit inquirer's to offer handsome rewards. (I accept Cash, Postal Money Orders, or rare spanners in return!)

 

[Old Man Roger]

Hmm, I usually just say you ****.lol

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Kidding the newcomer. Of course. Good research and information are always free here down on the Vintage Board. Especially for good sports like the OP. (Although I DO like the precedent that Mike is establishing here...)

I haven't gotten it into the 1930's yet, but given the exactitude of the cited spanner, by the unabbreviated name I suggested, and the exact part number on the actual tool, this 1929 reference would tickle me very, very pink if that "HYD BUFF No. 146" thingamajig were mine!

Regulations for the Equipment of the Army

books.google.com

 

[Old Man Roger]

Google doesn’t show me anything in a Howitzer recoil system that looks anything like it?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Sorry. I can't help you. No illustration or description in the reference I found, because that reference document is a compilation of many, many guns and other equipment. I may poke around tomorrow or as I have time. I am a reference guy, and for me, having the abbreviated name ("HYD BUFF") and the exact number ("No. 146") of the spanner identified as a gun spanner on a tool with a shape that looks like what remains of tools that have been identified as gun spanners would do it for me! YMMV.

 

[sgrammel]

Sorry. I can't help you. No illustration or description in the reference I found, because that reference document is a compilation of many, many guns and other equipment. I may poke around tomorrow or as I have time. I am a reference guy, and for me, having the abbreviated name ("HYD BUFF") and the exact number ("No. 146") of the spanner identified as a gun spanner on a tool with a shape that looks like what remains of tools that have been identified as gun spanners would do it for me! YMMV.

I agree the reference book is for Officer Training and is a broad list of items..not just the Howitzer (although the Howitzer is specifically referenced in the Site category above our Spanner section.

Found this...Check page 64 of the manual. I references Spanner no 146

gun_drill_4.5-inch-q.f.-howitzer.pdf

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Found this...Check page 64 of the manual. I references Spanner no 146

Nice work! Thanks for posting that. That's two references that list it by the name and number on the tool! And now we know it was kept in the carriage toolcase. I'd still like to see it later than 1929, but I can attest that all kinds of inventory from the 1930's made its way into US Army issue during WWII.

With the number of mystery items I find, or that cross Page 1 here, I'd be calling this as good as it gets (and it's actually better than it often gets) and moving on myself. We'll see what the OP thinks. At least he has something to dive deeper on at his convenience.

This was a fun one!

 

[Old Man Roger]

Every buffer I’ve seen looks more like a steering damper not an offset screwdriver, what am I missing here? Would one of you describe what you believe this thing does?

 

[sgrammel]

To me it's weird it's called a 'spanner'. Is that another word for what we would call a wrench today?

 

[alfadan]

We need CSI to analyze it.

"Zoom and enhance...there imbedded in the finish you can see a fingerprint of the workman from 1937...run that through the database..."

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Would one of you describe what you believe this thing does?

No idea. Almost impossible to say without seeing the actual recoil mechanism. And we're probably not seeing the entire tool. If it had milled square and basin openings, etc like the ones similar in shape that 3Bay posted. The blade would be used like a key or offset screwdriver to also engage something, probably a slot. If you go to Google Books and search on "Gun Hydraulic Buffer Key Spanner" you'll see a number of documents for various prewar British guns in a list, all of them having a hydraulic buffer. Open the documents and read until you can get a feel for the equipment. What you will find described and in some cases shown are cylinders, pistons, rods, valves, etc. Many of them describe the keys and spanners for inserting and removing plugs, or engaging with slots or prongs or "nibs".

To me it's weird it's called a 'spanner'. Is that another word for what we would call a wrench today?

Yes.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

"Zoom and enhance...there imbedded in the finish you can see a fingerprint of the workman from 1937...run that through the database..."

Snerk.

 

[Old Man Roger]

No idea. Almost impossible to say without seeing the actual recoil mechanism. And we're probably not seeing the entire tool. If it had milled square and basin openings, etc like the ones similar in shape that 3Bay posted. The blade would be used like a key or offset screwdriver to also engage something, probably a slot. If you go to Google Books and search on "Gun Hydraulic Buffer Key Spanner" you'll see a number of documents for various prewar British guns in a list, all of them having a hydraulic buffer. Open the documents and read until you can get a feel for the equipment. What you will find described and in some cases shown are cylinders, pistons, rods, valves, etc. Many of them describe the keys and spanners for inserting and removing plugs, or engaging with slots or prongs or "nibs".

Yes.

Ok thank you. I was thinking you were saying it was part of the recoil buffer, but its likely a tool for the breech mechanism or something.

 

[RTM]

To me it's weird it's called a 'spanner'. Is that another word for what we would call a wrench today?

I think the British still call spanner what we call a wrench. I’m not old enough to recall spanner as a US term, but I don’t dig into manuals like Lugz does, so I may be amiss.

In case you didn’t know, the Aussies and others refer to a wrench as a shifter, no relation to the 4 on the floor, or 3 on the tree.

 

[Old Man Roger]

A spanner in the U.S is usually something like a specialty wrench like a coil spring adjusting tool, or the tool you use to remove the disc on an angle grinder, or remove the bung on a barrel.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I’m not old enough to recall spanner as a US term, but I don’t dig into manuals like Lugz does, so I may be amiss.

I won't say never, as a rule, but I am not aware of a tool with one or two ends with milled openings (i.e., engineers wrench, tool post wrench, etc) ever being called a spanner in any American technical literature or the street, like the British did and still do. This forum is loaded with examples of US pin spanners, adjustable pin spanners, face spanners, etc, (photo of some of my Fairmounts below as reference) and I know you know that and weren't referring to those.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I was thinking you were saying it was part of the recoil buffer, but its likely a tool for the breech mechanism or something.

Huh!? Why would you suggest it's a tool for "the breech mechanism or something" or be trying to think of any alternative use case for it when the two references that I and @sgrammel posted above both definitively identify the tool as a hydraulic buffer spanner (i.e., a spanner to be used to service the hydraulic buffer) in standard government/military nomenclature format?

"Spanner, hydraulic buffer, No. 146."

If the table format in my reference (which does not repeat the name of the tool in front of each declined model number) confused you, and you did not click on his link, here is a composite excerpt... Good to have one at thread face value anyway!

 

[Old Man Roger]

Wouldn't the buffer be attached to the breech block? I guess I just assumed it was a multi tool for a howitzer. Don’t read too much into it.

I guess I was also assuming the suspected missing part was an open end or box end wrench, considering your literature calls it a spanner.

 

[four.cycle]

Aussies and others refer to a wrench as a shifter,

^ Unless I am mistaken, "shifter" is the term generally used in Australia (and New Zealand) for what we call an "adjustable wrench" (e.g., "Crescent wrench") The Australians and New Zealanders, if I am not mistaken, use the term "spanner" for other types of wrenches.

A spanner in the U.S is usually something like a specialty wrench like a coil spring adjusting tool,

Correct, as @Private Lugnutz notes just above (post #138).

Just to make sure, however, that the waters will never be clear, what we call "wrench" is a "Key" in eastern European countries and Russia, and I've seen a bit of "spill-over" on that one; the usage of the term doesn't recognize international borders.

Nomenclature

Nomenclature: (n.) (1) the devising or choosing of names for things, especially in a science or other discipline. I recently began broadening my search parameters in an effort to dig as many names out of the woodwork as I can for my LIST (which is being updated almost daily lately, in case you...

www.garagejournal.com

sorry about the thread drift

 

[Oregon Dave]

Is a possible current summation of the astute observation and research thus far:

The O.P. submitted an image of a tool meant to be used on the recoil suppression system of a British artillery piece, that some, likely WWII veteran fashioned into a paint can opener. Later thrown away, likely by a grandson; who like us, couldn’t figure out, what is was or how to use it. Aint ingenuity ingenious.

BTW: Found a labeled cross-sectional TM diagram of the hydraulic buffer on a British 15 pounder; but unless you have access to image enhancement; would not spend much time googling/looking for it

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I guess I just assumed it was a multi tool for a howitzer. Don’t read too much into it.

I guess I was also assuming the suspected missing part was an open end or box end wrench, considering your literature calls it a spanner.

The original complete tool may very well have milled openings such as the US gun wrenches 3Bay found on eBay has, or perhaps even prongs for a retaining ring etc, but it almost certainly also has a deep "key" or offset screwdriver type blade, such as the OP's tool still has remaining. I'm not sure if you're saying you didn't read too much into it, Rog, or you are you telling me not to read too much into your comment, but if the latter, I wasn't. But I hope you can see how your statement not only seemed to be missing or ignoring the salience of the explicit identification of it as a spanner for a HYDraulic BUFFer with model No. 146 for a 4.5inch Howitzer in a period-correct British military technical manual on that artillery piece, but suggesting it was a spanner for some other part of the gun. I was just clarifying.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...what we call "wrench" is a "Key" in eastern European countries and Russia, and I've seen a bit of "spill-over" on that one;

Well, in France and America, too!

I've been talking about the OP's tool as a "key" since Friday when I first proposed that it could be a tool for servicing a HYDraulic BUFFer to a railway or a large British gun and the reference I included referred to keys, screwdrivers and spanners. Note that the word for "key" in French (clé) is still also used to mean "wrench" (clés a pipes, still made by FACOM, for example, which appropriated the type of wrench made popular by Vlchek and Braunsdorf-Mueller here in the 1920's, are my favorite wrenches!) and we, too, still use the term "key" here in the States in certain cases. Think "hex key," the original, formal name for the "hex wrench".

In this case, it is not as complex as a hex bit or any other cruciform style male piece to fit in any cruciform style female opening (i.e., Bristol, Torx, etc). Just a deep offset screwdriver-like blade, probably for installing and removing something like a threaded fill or drain plug with a slotted recess in its face.

This detective work was a great team effort this time.

@alfadan confirmed my hunch about the 'C with arrow' symbol and his source confirmed it as 1937 timeframe. @Mintgrun 's suggestion that it was modified opened up the possibility of there being more to the key/offset/spanner than what remained. @PCustoms early American rifle tools, shaped like offset screwdrivers or slot keys, helped confirm its basic utility in the history of ordnance and gunsmithing. @RTM and @Karl_B identified that "AS&S" was very likely Armstrong, Stevens, & Son, who had a long history supplying tools, including spanners, to the British military, keeping us on that track. @3baygarage 's eBay WWII Naval gun wrenches, while US make, helped confirm the trend of replacing single purpose keys to multi-purpose spanners, including those servicing the hydraulic buffer, that I found in British Interwar handbooks, and the resemblance of the deep blade-like key part to the OP's tool was unmistakable.

While we don't have a picture of it, I am guessing the HYDraulic BUFFer spanner No. 146 in the references that @sgrammel and I just posted last night might look something akin to the wartime gun spanners.

Here are several "keys" from a 1928 Handbook for a different gun - the BL 60-lber. I already posted the one key with the T handle and blade. As I suggested at the time, when I noticed the transition and reduction in their manuals from keys to spanners, I can easily see them combining a few of these service ends and openings with that key-like blade into something akin to the US Naval gun wrenches, which are clearly combination tools.



Interestingly, enough, this website dedicated to WWII British artillery, has a page on our No. 146 HYDraulic BUFFer spanner's 4.5 inch Howitzer, and says, "Designed as a replacement for the 60 pounder gun, the first 4.5in Mk. I guns arrived in 1938 and shared the same carriage as the 60 pdr."

Which is just about perfect.

 

[Old Man Roger]

The original complete tool may very well have milled openings such as the US gun wrenches 3Bay found on eBay has, or perhaps even prongs for a retaining ring etc, but it almost certainly also has a deep "key" or offset screwdriver type blade, such as the OP's tool still has remaining. I'm not sure if you're saying you didn't read too much into it, Rog, or you are you telling me not to read too much into your comment, but if the latter, I wasn't. But I hope you can see how your statement not only seemed to be missing or ignoring the salience of the explicit identification of it as a spanner for a HYDraulic BUFFer with model No. 146 for a 4.5inch Howitzer in a period-correct British military technical manual on that artillery piece, but suggesting it was a spanner for some other part of the gun. I was just clarifying.

Yes I meant don’t read too much into my comment, I was assuming you nailed it.

I found some military training videos on a pack howitzer of that era, but it only showed the fuse tools. I did come across a video of a women who restored one, but didn’t see anything other than modern tools.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The O.P. submitted an image of a tool meant to be used on the recoil suppression system of a British artillery piece, that some, likely WWII veteran fashioned into a paint can opener. Later thrown away, likely by a grandson; who like us, couldn’t figure out, what is was or how to use it.

Funny and too true!

 

[Old Man Roger]

View attachment 2386989

Linky no worky

Is a possible current summation of the astute observation and research thus far:

The O.P. submitted an image of a tool meant to be used on the recoil suppression system of a British artillery piece, that some, likely WWII veteran fashioned into a paint can opener. Later thrown away, likely by a grandson; who like us, couldn’t figure out, what is was or how to use it. Aint ingenuity ingenious.

BTW: Found a labeled cross-sectional TM diagram of the hydraulic buffer on a British 15 pounder; but unless you have access to image enhancement; would spend much time googling/looking for it

Another problem is there are so many iterations of the howitzer. Models, manufacturers, COO.

 

[RTM]

Linky no worky

Works here on my phone

 

[Old Man Roger]

Works here on my phone

Working now. Looks like most of the tools I came across while searching.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Another problem is there are so many iterations of the howitzer. Models, manufacturers, COO.

?? None of those would be as specifically relevant, though.

We know that our poor, whittled, once-trusty "Spanner, Hydraulic Buffer, No. 146" was issued to the QF 4.5-inch Howitzer made by Conventry Ordnance Works and the Ordnance Factory in Woolich, and that the gun...

"....equipped some batteries of the British Expeditionary Force in France in 1940. Ninety-six were lost, leaving 403 in worldwide service (only 82 outside UK) with the British Army, plus those held by Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_4.5-inch_howitzer

My point being that in the absence of a complete example or an illustration of a complete example of the tool, if the OP or you or any one of the collective "we" wanted to derive its likely male and female shaped maintenance service forms, the hydraulic buffer we would need to examine for plugs, glands, rings, etc should by definition be for the QF 4.5-inch Howitzer.

It won't be me. I am satisfied with what we have.

Enjoy that relic, @Junk&Disorder !

 

[Oregon Dave]

Linky no worky


Another problem is there are so many iterations of the howitzer. Models, manufacturers, COO.

Not so many iterations if you approaching the task from the standpoint this is a tool used on the British hydraulic buffer #136; lot of really astute observation & research (may take some re-reading) to rely on, up-thread↑.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Not so many iterations if you approaching the task from the standpoint this is a tool used on the British hydraulic buffer #136;

The number marked on the spanner and in the manual (No. 146, by the way) is the number of the tool, not the hydraulic buffer. But yes, we had the same idea in reply to Rog.

 

[four.cycle]

My point being that in the absence of a complete example or an illustration of a complete example of the tool, i

Dollars to donuts there's a specimen in some military museum somewhere.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ I've already notified several WWII collecting colleagues in the UK. One of them is a co-coordinator of an Air Museum, and I have sent him pounds and pounds of tools. Mainly wheeled vehicle guys, like me. But I am pretty confident that they will be able to run it down with the research and identification of the specific gun and tool.

 

[Old Man Roger]

?? None of those would be as specifically relevant, though.

We know that our poor, whittled, once-trusty "Spanner, Hydraulic Buffer, No. 146" was issued to the QF 4.5-inch Howitzer made by Conventry Ordnance Works and the Ordnance Factory in Woolich, and that the gun...

"....equipped some batteries of the British Expeditionary Force in France in 1940. Ninety-six were lost, leaving 403 in worldwide service (only 82 outside UK) with the British Army, plus those held by Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_4.5-inch_howitzer

My point being that in the absence of a complete example or an illustration of a complete example of the tool, if the OP or you or any one of the collective "we" wanted to derive its likely male and female shaped maintenance service forms, the hydraulic buffer we would need to examine for plugs, glands, rings, etc should by definition be for the QF 4.5-inch Howitzer.

It won't be me. I am satisfied with what we have.

Enjoy that relic, @Junk&Disorder !

Not so many iterations if you approaching the task from the standpoint this is a tool used on the British hydraulic buffer #136; lot of really astute observation & research (may take some re-reading) to rely on, up-thread↑.

The number marked on the spanner and in the manual (No. 146, by the way) is the number of the tool, not the hydraulic buffer. But yes, we had the same idea in reply to Rog.

I wasn’t going to find an image of the tool by being so specific, I was searching through hundreds of photos.

 

[four.cycle]

^ I've already notified several WWII collecting colleagues in the UK.

I just fired off an email to the Royal Artillery Museum in Salisbury.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I wasn’t going to find an image of the tool by being so specific, I was searching through hundreds of photos.

An approach in which you are likely to run into "many iterations, models, manufacturers, COOs" etc. However, due to the evolution of human industrial technical capacity to standardize, you might run into a version with a different number for a different gun that isn't so different, having to perform similar services on similar apparatuses. That's at play in the US Naval gun wrenches looking similar. Which is part of why I say I am satisfied. If my blokes across the pond come up with one, it'll be icing on the cake, but I'm pretty happy we got this one. I'm more of a documentation guy anyway. Seeing that nomenclature in a manual three days after we had nothing but a question mark gives me a buzz.

 

[Old Man Roger]

An approach in which you are likely to run into "many iterations, models, manufacturers, COOs" etc. However, due to the evolution of human industrial technical capacity to standardize, you might run into a version with a different number for a different gun that isn't so different, having to perform similar services on similar apparatuses. That's at play in the US Naval gun wrenches looking similar. Which is part of why I say I am satisfied. If my blokes across the pond come up with one, it'll be icing on the cake, but I'm pretty happy we got this one. I'm more of a documentation guy anyway. Seeing that nomenclature in a manual three days after we had nothing but a question mark gives me a buzz.

But but but, I want you to find a video of a guy with a British accent adjusting a recoil buffer with the exact tool.lol

 

[four.cycle]

^ maybe somebody at the Royal Artillery Museum can fix us up with a video!

( I am envisioning Rowan Atkinson playing the lead, doing the adjusting, with John Cleese standing by as his assistant.)

 

[Old Man Roger]

^ maybe somebody at the Royal Artillery Museum can fix us up with a video!

( I am envisioning Rowan Atkinson playing the lead, doing the adjusting, with John Cleese standing by as his assistant.)

It is but a flesh wound.lol