Not impressed with new Channellocks quality

[reader2580]

It would likely cost many millions to automate the Channellock factory. Channellock would need to have the capital to do so, or be able to take on the debt. Automation would need to save enough money to pay for itself over a period of probably five to ten years.

 

[dwasifar]

Nobody automates a plant to make a better product (with the exception of maybe some cnc equipment, but that isn't even necessarily true), they do it to make a plant more efficient, and less workers to employ.

I don't think there needs to be just one reason. I think it's often done for both quality and cost reasons.

I understand the human cost here, and I hope that the workers displaced by automation at Kohler were really retrained for work elsewhere in the company as they claim. But a robot's work is 100% consistent and repeatable. As HandyAndy pointed out, you still have to get them dialed in and work to the limits of their capacities, but once you've done that, it's more consistent than human hands can be.

I play guitar. I have mostly handmade USA instruments. But I am forced to admit that the instruments made using automation - CNC machines and Plek machines - are better made.

 

[anetode]

Channellock is between a rock and a hard place, they've overtaxed themselves by attempting to meet a price point by pressuring a limited skilled workforce to simply rush through faster. There's absolutely no reason that the people at their factories wouldn't be able to meet a higher standard if given the time. There are Japanese firms which cater to a similar price bracket and with the same limitations with regard to automation but are able to deliver consistently high quality pliers (e.g. Keiba -

). There's a sweet spot between pricing, labor and quality control that CL hasn't quite been able to nail down in recent times.

They're no doubt aware of this and hopefully working on it. Their new SpeedGrips will be a good test.

 

[American Locomotive]

It would likely cost many millions to automate the Channellock factory. Channellock would need to have the capital to do so, or be able to take on the debt. Automation would need to save enough money to pay for itself over a period of probably five to ten years.

As many here like to say "buy once, cry once". If you want to compete, you need to spend money. It's as simple as that. If you can build a machine that can do twice the work in half the time - you've just replaced 4 employees. That's A LOT of savings.

If Channellock (a company with 400+ employees) can't scrounge together several million dollars, then they're already doomed.

Nobody automates a plant to make a better product, they do it to make a plant more efficient, and less workers to employ.

That is literally one of the most important reasons to automate. Consistently higher quality = reduced costs. You have less rejected parts, happier customers and higher profit. Quality is ultra important to most "serious" companies.

Channellock is between a rock and a hard place, they've overtaxed themselves by attempting to meet a price point by pressuring a limited skilled workforce to simply rush through faster. There's absolutely no reason that the people at their factories wouldn't be able to meet a higher standard if given the time. There are Japanese firms which cater to a similar price bracket and with the same limitations with regard to automation but are able to deliver consistently high quality pliers (e.g. Keiba -

). There's a sweet spot between pricing, labor and quality control that CL hasn't quite been able to nail down in recent times.

I agree. Keiba is a premium brand that charges premium prices for their premium product. They can support their manufacturing processes. Chanellock is trying to compete with taiwan, when in reality they should positioning themselves more like a budget SnapOn.

 

[Parrothead]

I just think it needs to have perspective as well. Just because it's "Made in USA" doesn't mean you're getting the best of the best. You still get what you pay for. You can't buy a relatively cheap set of Channellocks and expect absolute perfection, because it's just not reasonable in the price range.

A set of 12" CL's is $15 on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Channellock-440-12-Inch-Tongue-Groove/dp/B00004SBCU/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=channellock&qid=1561383547&s=gateway&sr=8-5

And a similar set of Snap On pliers is $50:
https://store.snapon.com/Tongue-and-Groove-Pliers-Adjustable-Joint-Straight-Serrated-Jaws-12-3-4--P641008.aspx

A somewhat similar slip joint type plier from Knipex is $35:
https://www.amazon.com/KNIPEX-Tools-12-Inch-Cobra-Pliers/dp/B000X4J2HU/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=knipex+cobra+12+inch&qid=1561383800&s=gateway&sr=8-1

So basically what you want is a pair of US-made pliers that are made of high grade steel, but also aesthetically perfect, for 1/4-1/3 the price of what other premium pliers are selling for? It just doesn't seem realistic. It's like buying a Ford Focus and complaining that the car drives and functions nicely, but the interior fit and finish quality isn't on par with a Mercedes E-class.

I'm also not sure the 'overbite' of the jaw is something that any manufacturer of tongue and groove pliers can get perfect, although I'll admit I've never looked that closely at any of mine. Depending on what groove you're in, the pivot point is moving, so the jaw alignment in that direction is going to change with each groove. At best I don't think this type of plier was ever designed to use the end to flush grab things - they are for adjusting to different diameters of round (or other shapes I suppose) objects and grabbing them in the jaws.

Wilde/Tekton doesn’t seem to have the same problem Channelock does, and they’re made in the USA too.

TEKTON Tongue and Groove Pliers 3 Piece Set, 7, 10 and 12-3/4-Inch $38 | 90394 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TJQKWYU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

*using Snap On as a price comparison for anything isn’t realistic. They charged literally 3x the amount Sears did for their rethreading kit. Snap On’s game is financing and image. Yes they make or source a quality too, but they’re nobody’s value purchase.

 

[JBH]

Putting the car analogies aside - what can you get for the same price as the Channellocks (say ~$15 range) that are better? And let's talk functionally - how comfortable are they to use, how do the grips hold up, how hard are the teeth, etc?

Umm...

I was done with Channellock when the two different plastics on a pair of 7” side cutter handles started separating. That has never happened to me with Knipex, Gedore, Stahlwille/VBW, Klein, or Wiha. They’re not even relatively less expensive. The Channellock E337CB are about $25 on Amazon today. KC Tool has a pair of Gedore 180mm side cutters with comfort grips for $21.73.

https://www.kctoolco.com/gedore-8314-180-jc-side-cutter-180-mm/

To give another example, look at the Tsunoda 8” American-style needle nose pliers from Japan. They’re outstanding pliers, though they have dipped grips. Currently $16.50 on Amazon.

 

[mbshop]

Hmm, look ok to me. Want looks ? Spend much more money. My craftsman slip joint pliers from 1970 are ugly, sloppy and still do the job. I use them the most though I have channel lock, so and mac.

 

[visionguru]

The health care cost in USA is outrageously high. For example, my perfectly healthy daughter did some blood work to make sure everything is ok. The bill to the insurance company was $6000! Those pure lab work didn't involve doctors, and can be done for $500 or less if ordered from independent labs.

Think about how much the insurance would have costed for the employers. That will directly affect the competitiveness of made in USA. Basically, if the price is roughly the same as Chinese/Taiwan products, made in USA = garbage. Made in Japan/Germany should be in a similar situation.

 

[Davefr]

I tend to agree with you. IMHO CL is only mediocre.

I've compared the CL 8" needlenose against SO, Klein, Doyle and they came in dead last. Doyle beat them by a tad in quality and really beat them in value.

I like to buy USA but only when there's a quality/performance benefit.

 

[Lisamelting]

I haven't bought CL in over 20 years. Don't need to since the ones I bought when first starting out still do the job they were purchased for.

 

[Handyandy23]

Wilde/Tekton doesn’t seem to have the same problem Channelock does, and they’re made in the USA too.

TEKTON Tongue and Groove Pliers 3 Piece Set, 7, 10 and 12-3/4-Inch $38 | 90394 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TJQKWYU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

*using Snap On as a price comparison for anything isn’t realistic. They charged literally 3x the amount Sears did for their rethreading kit. Snap On’s game is financing and image. Yes they make or source a quality too, but they’re nobody’s value purchase.

What problem are you referring to with Channellock versus the Tekton's?

 

[Handyandy23]

Umm...



To give another example, look at the Tsunoda 8” American-style needle nose pliers from Japan. They’re outstanding pliers, though they have dipped grips. Currently $16.50 on Amazon.

The original post was about tongue and groove pliers, so that's more what I was referring to. But what specifically makes those Gedores or Tsunodas better than their CL counterparts? Are we still talking about cosmetics?

I have CL needle nose pliers, and they work well and do what they're supposed to do. I'm sure those other ones are nice too, but not sure what they would do better functionally. And I can get the CL cheaper locally and have them in my hands instantly.

I'm not sure what these perceived quality issues are that people are talking about. If you look around online at reviews and feedback Channellock is received very positively.

 

[dr_clyde]

I am not a CL fanboy. I do have a few sets of their pliers, and they work fine.

They are a perfectly usable product sold for an affordable price. Not the best, not the worst. I have probably 3 or 4 sets of CL pliers because they are cheap enough to be able to justify 4 sets, yet good enough quality that they will work for years.

Yes, they have some legacy baggage. Sometimes companies will overlook lots of inefficient or outdated manufacturing processes if they are still profitable. Lots of times things only get changed or replaced if the profits go away or the machine breaks.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I think that is exactly right. I've seen videos of the Channellock production line, and it looks like something out of the 1930s - dirty and manual. And the guys are rushing through the work. That's probably the reason right there.

Well, judge for yourself:

I wouldn't call that a dirty factory, that's a normal manufacturing facility. Nothing fancy, simple equipment that has been used for years and still used because it works.

 

[kngelv]

This is a crazy *** message board at times. Everyone moans about lost U.S. jobs and then wants to nitpick the supposed antiquated production methods of Channellock. I for one don’t mind a bit that there is still a lot of hands on production versus a robot doing everything. Looking at the OP’s purchase I would agree that there are some manufacturing defects and would exchange them for a new set. No company is perfect and poor quality products can slip through the cracks. I’m an industrial electrician and once had a lower jaw on a pair of Knipex Cobra’s snap while I was turning a 3/4 inch piece of rigid conduit into a LB. I own Knipex Cobra’s and Alligators, plus slip joint pliers from Craftsman, Tekton and Proto. Hate the Proto with a passion. Love their wrenches and sockets but they make terrible pliers. Every one I have had has been non-user friendly. My go to pliers at work are Channellocks for one main reason. When I’m up in a man lift running conduit or cable tray or other work the Channellock are the easiest for me to adjust with one hand. Sometimes I’m holding a stick of conduit in one hand while turning it with the other. There is something about the design that allows me to brace one arm of the tool against my leg or other arm and easily adjust it. BTW I’m still using the original 440’s from the beginning of my apprenticeship in 1996.

James

 

[American Locomotive]

I wouldn't call that a dirty factory, that's a normal manufacturing facility. Nothing fancy, simple equipment that has been used for years and still used because it works.

A bit and brace is nothing fancy, and worked fine too. Don't see any profesional contractors still using those to build houses. If you want to compete in the kow to mid price range, you need lots of automation. Period.

Automation doesn't necessarily mean lost jobs, either.

 

[dwasifar]

The health care cost in USA is outrageously high. For example, my perfectly healthy daughter did some blood work to make sure everything is ok. The bill to the insurance company was $6000! Those pure lab work didn't involve doctors, and can be done for $500 or less if ordered from independent labs.

Think about how much the insurance would have costed for the employers. That will directly affect the competitiveness of made in USA. Basically, if the price is roughly the same as Chinese/Taiwan products, made in USA = garbage. Made in Japan/Germany should be in a similar situation.

Then how does Tekton do it?

 

[Yarpo]

Then how does Tekton do it?

Tekton isn't operating a factory making pliers, wilde is doing that for them.

 

[NoahG]

The main thing that keeps me from being a Channellock fanboy is that knife and anvil is a lousy cutting edge design.

 

[gmwelder86]

You guys are to funny. Complaining about fit and finish on a tool to most trades people don’t give a single thought into. It comes down to channel locks flat out work and work well for their intended purpose. You go to any job site and you will find not adjustable pliers of differing brands but channel locks in just about every plumber, electricians, pipe fitters, tin knockers hell probably stud monkeys and ironworkers roll all day long with channel locks. Oh it’s got a little rust. Tools I have that get used don’t tend to rust. Clear the gunk out of the grooves with a rag quick spray with some wd and good to go back in the tool bags.

 

[American Locomotive]

Most tradesmen around here now use Knipex Cobras or the Craftsman version for most tasks.

It's simple. CL is charging prices for their tools that other brands can meet without the cosmetic and quality problems. Why would I buy the CL when I could get better?

 

[dwasifar]

Tekton isn't operating a factory making pliers, wilde is doing that for them.

Then how does Wilde do it?

They're made in USA at the same price point. Visionguru says they should be ****. Why aren't they?

 

[JBH]

But what specifically makes those Gedores or Tsunodas better than their CL counterparts? Are we still talking about cosmetics?

Well, for one thing I know for a fact that the Gedore handles won't split at the seams...

It doesn't matter if the cutting edge is good if the handle cuts into your hands!

As for the plus-sized needle noses, you have the CLs. Pick up the Tsunodas for just $16.50 if you want to see what I'm talking about.

By "tongue and groove" do you mean the things that look kinda like water pump pliers but are just two flat pieces instead of a fork and insert? I'll stick with my Stahlwille Fastgrips, Cobras, Gedore 142, and Orbis Speedys.

 

[mikehaugen]

Basically, if the price is roughly the same as Chinese/Taiwan products, made in USA = garbage. Made in Japan/Germany should be in a similar situation.

I agree with this... to a point. What bothers me is when a company (for some reason many gearwrench tools come to mind) is when a company decides to outsource to asian countries and still want to charge what is in my opinion a high price for their tools. Blue Point is another example of this, as well as some other truck branded tools.

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[mikehaugen]

Chanellock is trying to compete with taiwan, when in reality they should positioning themselves more like a budget SnapOn.

This imho is really the bottom line here. Similar to what sk does... though they have really jacked their prices lately, almost to the point of putting themselves out of this "sweet spot" category.

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[Tonyuk]

If they were practically perfect in every way, wouldn’t they be British?

Absolutely not.

They would be Scottish.

 

[measuredtwice]

But they're made in the US of A?

Surely they're perfect in every way.

If they were practically perfect in every way, wouldn’t they be British?

Absolutely not.

They would be Scottish.

I remember when Americans used to be patriotic.

I just looked and pair of Channellocks runs around $10. Walmart has a set of 2 for $19 shipped (over $35) or free pickup. Some of you are comparing them to $20 - 50 tools. And to be fair, even expensive tools can rust. There was a $50 Knipex Pliers Wrench at my local Menards that had a rusted button. It's a wonderful tool but poor storage conditions and/or handling can cause rust. It was there for several months and then disappeared. I could have picked that one off the shelf and then complained about it. But it would make more sense just to pick one off the shelf that wasn't rusty (or exchange it if bought online).

Personally, I'm happy to hear that Channellock is doing so well that they have trouble keeping up with demand. We don't have many American tool makers left.

 

[measuredtwice]

This Made in China impact driver rusted before the (unknown) manufacturer could even take photos of it --haha!

 

[Tonyuk]

This Made in China impact driver rusted before the (unknown) manufacturer could even take photos of it --haha!

You laugh, but the manufacturer of that tool can probably make 10 of them in the time it takes channellock to make a single pair of pliers.

It's getting harder to compete with overseas manufacturing, that's where all the money from investors is going now (the majority anyway).

 

[Handyandy23]

Most tradesmen around here now use Knipex Cobras or the Craftsman version for most tasks.

It's simple. CL is charging prices for their tools that other brands can meet without the cosmetic and quality problems. Why would I buy the CL when I could get better?

What quality problems though? The little scratch in the OP? From my own experience, reading on GJ, and reading hundreds of Amazon reviews, I hardly see any actual quality issues or complaints with CL pliers.

Also still wondering what pliers are the same price and better?

 

[Handyandy23]

Well, for one thing I know for a fact that the Gedore handles won't split at the seams...

It doesn't matter if the cutting edge is good if the handle cuts into your hands!

As for the plus-sized needle noses, you have the CLs. Pick up the Tsunodas for just $16.50 if you want to see what I'm talking about.

By "tongue and groove" do you mean the things that look kinda like water pump pliers but are just two flat pieces instead of a fork and insert? I'll stick with my Stahlwille Fastgrips, Cobras, Gedore 142, and Orbis Speedys.

Have you had CL's whose handles have split? I haven't had this issue.

Like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the ones you've listed, but I'm also not about to go to the far reaches of the earth to buy pliers that are basically the same as what I can get with a 5 minute drive to the store for CL's. I don't really have a desire to pay $16.50 for Tsunodas if there isn't some tangible reason they're better.

The water pump pliers you've listed are several times more expensive than CL's. Again I'm sure they're nice, but not really comparing apples to apples.

 

[Handyandy23]

This imho is really the bottom line here. Similar to what sk does... though they have really jacked their prices lately, almost to the point of putting themselves out of this "sweet spot" category.

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I think this is one of those opinion things that will be different depending who you ask. I am happy with the CL's I have and wouldn't want to pay more for them. For what? A more consistently shiny finish?

I like getting good functioning pliers with hard teeth for a good price. And if they raised prices to try and please some superficial Made in US pride narrative, I doubt I'd be able to find them as easily in stores.

Right now they're half the price of Knipex and more readily available. Raise the prices to somehow make shinier pliers, local stores don't stock as many, and all of a sudden I'm looking at Knipex for only $10 or less more and no harder to order online.

 

[Max]

I agree with the OP that CL is making tools to a price point and it shows. Having said that, for the uses I have for them, the CL I have work just fine. And if you like or need Knipex athen more power to you. Lot’s of choices and options are good.

Max

 

[American Locomotive]

What quality problems though? The little scratch in the OP? From my own experience, reading on GJ, and reading hundreds of Amazon reviews, I hardly see any actual quality issues or complaints with CL pliers.

Also still wondering what pliers are the same price and better?

Did you just ignore everything in his post? The finish mark in every single set where it was rusting, the sloppy jaw tips that are not ground flush, the jaws being different widths. Those are all pretty severe quality issues.

 

[dwasifar]

What quality problems though? The little scratch in the OP? From my own experience, reading on GJ, and reading hundreds of Amazon reviews, I hardly see any actual quality issues or complaints with CL pliers.

Also still wondering what pliers are the same price and better?

I think "better" is going to be hard to agree on, given that you and I disagree on what constitutes a quality issue. To me, generally sloppy workmanship is such an issue, whereas you've dismissed that complaint as not an "actual quality issue." To you, if they initially work, nothing else is a quality problem. I understand and respect your point of view even though I disagree with it.

That said, the answer to "what are the same price and better?" might be Milwaukee. I bought three of those in different sizes. They're priced slightly below CL, and the workmanship appears better. They just seem like a more finished product. I'll take some pictures this evening.

 

[dwasifar]

Here are the Milwaukee pliers:

Everything lines up, works smoothly, looks good:

I couldn't get the camera to focus edge-on, but you can take my word for it that the jaws are of equal thickness and close straight. You can still shift them side to side on their rivets if you try, but not nearly as much as the CLs.

At Home Depot, these were $14.97 for the 12" and $19.97 for the 6" and 10" set, vs CL at $15.98 for the 12" and $24.97 for a 6.5" and 9.5" set.

You will note that the finish isn't perfect. I don't need it to be perfect; I just wanted the craftsmanship to be higher level overall.

Of course, if I'm unhappy with them when I actually put them to use, I promise to come back for a steaming helping of crow.

 

[JBH]

Have you had CL's whose handles have split?

It might be a little hard to see in a picture, but it's very noticeable in the hand:

View media item 93710
That happened despite being stored in a toolbox in a conditioned space. Do you see anything similar random panel gaps on these other pliers' grips? The smaller Gedore needle nose, Orbis EvoPlus, and Wiha side cutter are all a good bit older than the CLs.

View media item 93711
That killed CL for me. That said, I also have some CL-branded German-made (likely by Schmitz) precision pliers, and their handles have held up fine. However, their handles are the same shape and feel like the materials as Schmitz's other pliers, just in the CL colorway.

Like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the ones you've listed, but I'm also not about to go to the far reaches of the earth

Amazon.com is "the far reaches of the earth"!?!

Here's a direct link:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H3QQ2YM/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I don't really have a desire to pay $16.50 for Tsunodas if there isn't some tangible reason they're better.

I guess "better" depends on one's tastes and what one is accustomed to. After buying into the hype here about a pair of Snapon needlenoses (which turned out to be among the worst tools I've ever bought and definitely the worst value: ergonomically terrible due to the superwide handle spread, and with a poorly machined joint) I picked up a bunch of 8" needlenose pliers to compare. By a "bunch" I think I bought 14 or 15 in addition to the ones I already had on hand. CLs weren't among them. I wanted to stick to:
-makers I knew from experience to make quality pliers, such as Gedore, NWS, Schmitz, and VBW/Stahlwille (in addition to Knipex, Klein, Wiha, Orbis already on hand)
-Facom, because they have a good reputation and features such as spring loading, but I'd never actually held a pair before
-pliers rebranders who generally offer quality tools, such as Hazet, Bernstein, and Elora
-ones I'd never heard of before looking around that intrigued me due to features or price, such as SAM from France, Urrea from Mexico, and Tsunoda from Japan, and Wiha Inomic from Germany.

In this company, the Tsunoda's were so far the biggest positive surprise. I think they were the cheapest ones I bought, but except for dipped handles they really don't give anything up. Size-wise they're also an interesting tweener: thicker and shorter jaws than DIN-pattern but thinner and longer than Klein.

The water pump pliers you've listed are several times more expensive than CL's. Again I'm sure they're nice, but not really comparing apples to apples.

Some of the others are admittedly more, but the standard 10" Knipex Cobra is what, $25-35? Do the CL's cost $5-8?

 

[mikehaugen]

I bought a pair of the channellock mig pliers with the "code blue" handles and they were okay... but I chipped the cutting edge on both sides of the cutters within about a week. To be fair, I was using them to clear some spatter from the nozzle and think I may have grabbed it with the cutters... I realize they are for cutting soft welding wire and not spatter but I'm not sure that I should expect them to chip. I did buy another pair (non code blue) and will give them a second chance. I haven't decided if I will seek a warranty claim on the first pair.

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[plinker]

Prices current from Menards, may vary at other retailers. The Channellock is about 1/2 the price of the Knipex alligator (which is the best comparison since both adjust the same). Truck branded Knipex will defiantly run more money (which may be worth it if you expect to be breaking pliers).

Quality is subjective, just depends on the end user and what they want to do with what. Where I'm at, any brand of pliers will rust very easily (except for chrome plated).

Channellock 10" 430's, 13.88 regular price
https://www.menards.com/main/tools/hand-tools/pliers-plier-sets/channellock-reg-10-straight-jaw-tongue-groove-pliers/430/p-1444426383906-c-9156.htm?tid=-4344499765892861659&ipos=1

Knipex alligator 10", 21.05 sale, 23.39 regular price.
https://www.menards.com/main/tools/hand-tools/pliers-plier-sets/knipex-reg-alligator-reg-10-locking-pliers/8801250sba/p-1444437030882-c-9156.htm?tid=8923721207405755578&ipos=5

Knipex 10" cobras, 26.97 on sale, 29.97 regular price.
https://www.menards.com/main/tools/hand-tools/pliers-plier-sets/knipex-reg-cobra-reg-10-locking-pliers/8701250sba/p-1444437031426-c-9156.htm?tid=8923721207405755578&ipos=2

 

[ChrisLS8]

If a barely discernible split in a handle of a tool will ruin a brand for you then I don't want to bother with your opinion on tools that are meant to be USED.

We have hundreds of guys on one jobsite, guess what brand is in use by 99% of em? and they are used harder than anything in your box day in and day out without issue. It's ridiculous to see tool polishers whine about petty details that no one else would be bothered with