Not your usual Mini-Split install

[bzinsky]

looks like a pro installation. Ain't to tech can do a better job than that unless you throw them a bunch of money.

yeah I think that about everything, I haven't had a day of complete relaxation in like a year lol, my weekends are all DIY projects for that very reason.

perfect execution with everything because us DIY'ers haven't spent a career learning what steps are "not all that important"

I'm at the point now where I'm jealous of homeowners that don't know anything about their house lol.

I'm ripping out 150ft of chain link fence with an engine lift this weekend and putting in a 6ft vinyl fence next weekend.....sigh

Nice job on the AC install

 

[Gerald O]

I've never seen a forced air system that doesn't have leaks going in or going out.

Well I guess this will be a first for you. I guarantee you there are no leaks in this system. I've been pretty obsessive about that.

 

[miketyler]

Sorry to kick start an old thread but had to post up. Good job on this project Gerald. Appreciate the level of detail too.

I just got finished reading all 5 pages of the install. I have a 28' x 38' detached shop with an upstairs loft similar to yours. Its all finished out and recently converted it to a media/game room. Next is A/C install and I am considering possibly heating and cooling the shop as well.

My loft has an 8ft ceiling and I have a little more attic crawlspace than you do. I like the idea of the cassette as it would allow me to place the source in the center of the zone. Installing a wall unit at one end leaves me concerned about getting conditioned air to the far reaches of the zone. It is all open so maybe it wouldn't be an issue?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Gerald, I'm curious about how you like the ceiling cassette now that you have lived with it for awhile. I have heard they are not as efficient.

 

[msgross]

I'm happy with my ducted ductless fujitsu system in my house addition. Unlike the cassette it allowed my run run heat/air to three areas. It costs a bit more than wall system but worth the flexibility.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Gerald O]

Sorry to kick start an old thread but had to post up. Good job on this project Gerald. Appreciate the level of detail too.

I just got finished reading all 5 pages of the install. I have a 28' x 38' detached shop with an upstairs loft similar to yours. Its all finished out and recently converted it to a media/game room. Next is A/C install and I am considering possibly heating and cooling the shop as well.

My loft has an 8ft ceiling and I have a little more attic crawlspace than you do. I like the idea of the cassette as it would allow me to place the source in the center of the zone. Installing a wall unit at one end leaves me concerned about getting conditioned air to the far reaches of the zone. It is all open so maybe it wouldn't be an issue?

Thanks Mike. Is your garage posted here somewhere? In my building I didn't have a good wall space available to use a wall unit, unless I put it down low on a knee-wall. I think a centrally positioned unit like I did would do fine in an open space without adding ducts. The one downside is that it needs a sizable access opening next to it in case you plan to ever have to service it. So that leaves a good-sized footprint on the ceiling.

Gerald, I'm curious about how you like the ceiling cassette now that you have lived with it for awhile. I have heard they are not as efficient.

Wiz, I'm completely satisfied with the cassette unit. It's just the right size for the loft and even helps cool the garage below if I leave the door open. Eventually the garage will have its own cassette too. Today it was 95 degrees outside and the temperature in the loft was at 92 when I turned it on. It got down to 77 in the loft within about an hour even with leaving the door open to the garage below which is not insulated yet.

One thing I notice is that the air filter behind the grill picks up a lot of dust and needs to be washed now and then or the air flow falls off. But that's not surprising with all the construction dust going on. As far as efficiency, It's still rated pretty high compared to my house HVAC system. I don't leave it running all the time either, just when I'm working out there.

 

[Gerald O]

This is where I have it as of today. after the drywall is finished I'll add a nicely trimmed cover for the roof access hatch.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Wiz, I'm completely satisfied with the cassette unit. It's just the right size for the loft and even helps cool the garage below if I leave the door open. Eventually the garage will have its own cassette too. Today it was 95 degrees outside and the temperature in the loft was at 92 when I turned it on. It got down to 77 in the loft within about an hour even with leaving the door open to the garage below which is not insulated yet.

Sounds like you could hang meat up there after a couple of hours with the door closed !

Keep us posted when you get around to doing the lower level.

 

[miketyler]

Hi Gerald - I dont have a build thread for it but I have my introduction post here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=149855

I posted a few relevant pics below including a couple of the loft still in progress. I would be interested to know how you sized the unit for your application.

I dont want to muddy up your thread, I can start a new one but appreciate brief insight here.

 

[Gerald O]

Mike, that's a nice looking building you have. Is that staircase open to the garage below, or is it separated with a door? Whether you are conditioning two zones or a single larger volume would be a factor in sizing your HVAC.

I sized mine based on the volume of the zones, the local seasonal temperatures, and the degree of insulation. For the upstairs, which is about 500sqft and reduced volume from the cathedral ceiling, the 12k unit is just perfect for heating and cooling. But for the garage, which has 11' ceiling and about 800sqft the additional 12k unit is a bit undersized, especially for the heating season. Unless I leave the heat on full time I'll probably have to supplement with an auxiliary electric heater down there to bring the temp up quickly. I expect to find out next winter when the garage is done.

 

[miketyler]

Mike, that's a nice looking building you have. Is that staircase open to the garage below, or is it separated with a door? Whether you are conditioning two zones or a single larger volume would be a factor in sizing your HVAC.

Its a staircase open from the garage level. My first priority is heating and cooling the loft. The structure is about 30' x 40'. Adding the floor zone is an option but I am inclined to add it as well. I did install a 220v Farenheat ceiling heater in the shop. For such a small unit it does pretty good job of warming the space.

I am submitting all my specs to the guys at ecomfort to see what they recommend. My loft is partially vaulted like yours and I also have the three dormer spaces that probably factor into the equation as well.

 

[Gerald O]

For heating the loft, the open staircase will not work too much against you because the warmer air will naturally rise to the top and fill from the top downward. But for cooling, all your cool air will want to flow down the staircase to the lower floor first and so you will have to size the AC for the volume of the entire building. In very hot weather there will probably be a strong enough air convection current that you'll feel the cool airflow going down the stairs and the hot air flowing up near the top of the stairs. Good insulation will help. Do you know how it is insulated?

 

[miketyler]

It was constructed in 2004 and has yellow fiberglass batting in the walls and white fiberglass batting in the attic in the loft. I have looked but couldn't find any R values printed on the paper backing of either. There is no insulation in the floors between the loft and the shop. Also has a power roof vent located about the middle of the roof near the peak.

The ground level will take some tonnage to cool with the two large 9ft rool up doors. I have insulated them with the 1/2" foil-backed foam. These are 9' x 9' doors and the board has 3.2 R value

 

[Zeke]

First time reader of this thread and I have to say top job on both the project and the write up.

 

[Gerald O]

Thanks Zeke, glad you liked it. I'll have to follow up when I add the second cassette unit. Also, there are some details that I need to post about insulating the body of the cassette while maintaining a reasonable expectation that it can be removable for servicing if needed. I took pictures but haven't got around to editing them yet.

 

[big_bake]

Another great thread Gerald. I've been eyeing mini splits for my future garage build. Seeing how you ducted off of the ceiling cassette has given me some ideas for replacing the aging central AC in my house though. At less than 1300 sq ft, I was thinking I could get away with a multi head unit like you installed. You also made a good point on investing in quality tools that would certainly get used again to maintain other systems you own.

 

[Gerald O]

One thing I learned about mini-splits in this last winter storm we had is that they don't heat very well when there is freezing rain. The outside unit ices up continually and spends more time in defrost cycle than making heat. Outside temps were about 20deg and it could barely maintain the loft temperature at 60. When it's dry out it will maintain 70 inside no problem even at 20 outside.

To use a mini-split for home heating in this climate, and likely your climate too, I'd recommend some kind of supplemental heat unit to help out on those kinds of days. Maybe just a couple of plug-in space heaters would do to make up the deficit.

 

[Fueler]

I found the same thing with the mini split I put on the shop. Primarily for AC and it did a great job of that. I have Radiant tube heat and decided to experiment with the mini. Good news is I haven't used spit for propane compared to previous years. The only time the tubes came on is when it got below 25 and the wind was blowing. As was said the mini could not keep up then. I found a setting for both that kept the place nice so far this winter.
Yes, my power bill is up, about like when running AC but the higher priced propane not being used I think I am still ahead of the game. Another season or two will tell the tale.

 

[Gerald O]

Finished ceiling.

 

[simpler=better]

How's it working out for you?

Would you recommend the Friedrich unit? I'm looking to add one of these to my kitchen/dining room

 

[Gerald O]

How's it working out for you?

Would you recommend the Friedrich unit? I'm looking to add one of these to my kitchen/dining room

It's working well so far. No problems with it. But I haven't set up the second indoor unit yet, so I don't know how it will perform with both zones running.

The Friedrich is just a re-badged LG. So you could check with others on LG as well for more feedback. I guess I could recommend it as a good product.

 

[Gerald O]

So, almost 4 years of trouble-free operation and now my mini-split is having problems.
Kicks off after about 10 minutes of cooling and then flashes an error code.
I'm suspecting low refrigerant, as it starts out cold then gradually gets less cold. Will start diagnosis tomorrow.

 

[slodat]

I had the same thing after three years of operation on my Pioneer system. Turned out to be a tiny leak. Good as new once it was repaired and recharged.

 

[bobbyjean]

So, almost 4 years of trouble-free operation and now my mini-split is having problems.
Kicks off after about 10 minutes of cooling and then flashes an error code.
I'm suspecting low refrigerant, as it starts out cold then gradually gets less cold. Will start diagnosis tomorrow.

Gerald o- i would check those flare nut's with a soapy water mix...guessing its r-410a refrigerant....thats a "blend" ...you may find traces of oil to get you in the direction of leak....if the codes do indicate low refigerant....it will mean leak repair/check with nitrogen.... .....and pull a good vacuum...i would change the oil in the vacuum pump first step...then a recharge.....you should find the amount shipped in condenser on tag..good luck with it

 

[theoldwizard1]

Regarding freezing rain and blazing sun. Anything you can do to prevent your outside unit from being directly exposed to either will improve the overall performance of your system.

 

[Gerald O]

Well the error code was "high discharge temperature". So I put the gauges on the compressor and read about 70/200 obviously very low. I checked for leaks while running using soap bubble method but didn't find any. Didn't see signs of oil at any fittings. I'm actually suspecting the service ports because the caps were not that tight and there was some corrosion inside the caps. These caps are a compression seal, no rubber seals in them.
Anyway, since I don't have a recovery setup, I just added enough r410 to bring the suction side up to 115lbs. High side ended up about 300. About 80 degrees ambient at the time. it only took about 8oz. so very touchy. But the system only holds 54 oz total.
System is cooling well now, but I need to get a temperature probe to check superheat/subcool.
Cleaned up the service port caps and used nylog on them this time. Not leaking now, but I didn't think to test them before throwing the gauges on.

 

[justinjoyal]

I suggest using Nylog on all caps. Leaking ports/valves are common.

 

[hilld]

Gerald, I know this is an old thread, but I am curious about long term reliability. It is now another 2.5 years after you added some R410a. Anything else giving you trouble? Just curious.

 

[chrispyny]

Hilld, I with 100% owe both my mini split installs to Gerald O. This thread he started back in 2014 inspired me to install my fujitsu 24k btu 2 head unit on the east side of my house in 2016, and a Pioneer 18k btu 2 head unit on the west side of my house in 2017. I used ALL the same tools, with exception of a robinaire vacuum pump as i found it almost new in box on clist for a fraction of new. I also purchased a yellow jacket 60278 r410a flaring tool which is critical for the proper flares. I also got a small dry nitrogen tank and manifold to pressurize and dry out the lines when looking for leaks before releasing the gas.
I regret i sold the $700 in tools i purchased for these installs.

To answer your question, my units have been up and running since 2016 (5 hard humid upstate NY summers) and 2017 (4 summers) and they still work as well as they did when installed.
I also occasionally use them in october to take the chill off the house before i flip the switch for my hot water baseboard boiler in the winter. Usually when we are to lazy to start a fire in the wood stove on lazy late fall nights.


If you do your homework, buy these proper tools, take your time, you too can install your own ductless minisplit. As i have said in other threads since, i only wish i didn’t spend the premium onn the fuji unit, as the far cheaper pioneer works just as well. I could have probably saved $1,500 if i didn’t get wrapped up in my OCD by wanting premium products. I learned my lesson after the first install.

 

[Gerald O]

Gerald, I know this is an old thread, but I am curious about long term reliability. It is now another 2.5 years after you added some R410a. Anything else giving you trouble? Just curious.

No more trouble with heating or cooling. But once, about a year ago, the condensate drain pump in the ceiling casette wasn't working when I turned on the system after it had been idle (off) for about a month. There was a blinking error code that indicated the condensate level was high, and it would shut itself off after a minute. I guessed maybe something was stuck in the pump? Anyway, I tapped on the side of the cassette to try to rattle it a bit and then it started working. Hasn't given any trouble since, but I tend to leave it turned on most of the time now.

 

[yeldogt]

So how much flow do you get to the bathroom?

I posted way back when in 14 about my future system -- the three ceiling units have been running fine ever since. Nothing other than cleaning the filters ... mine is a 3 head Mitsubishi system. I have all four sides of the return open --- looks like you closed off two of yours?

Mine does the second floor of a large cape cod.

When I was reading the literature for the ceiling units ... the ducting was for incoming air. Since these units were initially developed for commercial spaces many codes require fresh air intake ... I wonder if you misread?

As long as it works ..right!

I did another 3 head at my beach house expansion an I'm doing more for the addition in my new build. Buy decent equipment and install them correctly

 

[chrispyny]

Yeldogt, Which brand did you buy each time if i may ask?

 

[yeldogt]

Yeldogt, Which brand did you buy each time if i may ask?

Mitsubishi. My new build has three singles going it due to it's strange layout

Did a stand alone Fujitsu back in 12 for a barn conversion loft. Also have an LG from 06 .... but, it's not used very often. LG had a leak problem that hurt the reputation years ago ... mine did not suffer. The Fujitsu was used because it was a better fit for the space (not as wide) ..... they work well but the control was not as good as the Mitsubishi


The Mitsubishi units work the best -- especially the wall units with the eye. Have not used one of the newest ceiling units they make.

 

[C2F]

I have been working in the commercial/industrial Hvac field for 14 years. With that said I would only recommend Daikin/Mitsubishi.
1) Tech support is much better for techs.
2) Parts availability. More items tend to be in stock within a driving distance from.
3) operational reliability. You’re getting a BMW/Benz unit with Subaru/Toyota reliability. When it’s really cold out I’ve seen certain models (LG and Panasonic) go into a lockout error, meanwhile the same style Mitsubishi / Similar options/install/ etc at the building keeps chugging along.

That being said. The most important part of a ductless split is the installation. A bad installation (line length to short or long, pipe kink, flares, vacuum/moisture, etc) can destroy a compressor in no time.

Hilld, I with 100% owe both my mini split installs to Gerald O. This thread he started back in 2014 inspired me to install my fujitsu 24k btu 2 head unit on the east side of my house in 2016, and a Pioneer 18k btu 2 head unit on the west side of my house in 2017. I used ALL the same tools, with exception of a robinaire vacuum pump as i found it almost new in box on clist for a fraction of new. I also purchased a yellow jacket 60278 r410a flaring tool which is critical for the proper flares. I also got a small dry nitrogen tank and manifold to pressurize and dry out the lines when looking for leaks before releasing the gas.
I regret i sold the $700 in tools i purchased for these installs.

To answer your question, my units have been up and running since 2016 (5 hard humid upstate NY summers) and 2017 (4 summers) and they still work as well as they did when installed.
I also occasionally use them in october to take the chill off the house before i flip the switch for my hot water baseboard boiler in the winter. Usually when we are to lazy to start a fire in the wood stove on lazy late fall nights.


If you do your homework, buy these proper tools, take your time, you too can install your own ductless minisplit. As i have said in other threads since, i only wish i didn’t spend the premium onn the fuji unit, as the far cheaper pioneer works just as well. I could have probably saved $1,500 if i didn’t get wrapped up in my OCD by wanting premium products. I learned my lesson after the first install.

Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[C2F]

No more trouble with heating or cooling. But once, about a year ago, the condensate drain pump in the ceiling casette wasn't working when I turned on the system after it had been idle (off) for about a month. There was a blinking error code that indicated the condensate level was high, and it would shut itself off after a minute. I guessed maybe something was stuck in the pump? Anyway, I tapped on the side of the cassette to try to rattle it a bit and then it started working. Hasn't given any trouble since, but I tend to leave it turned on most of the time now.

Does the air get very dirty In the garage? Dirty air may be bypassing the filter and filling the condensate drain with mud. If it continues you’ll want to open the unit up enough and rig up a way vacuum the pan. If it’s dirty try keep filling the pan/float with water and vacuuming the muddy water out.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[LS6 Tommy]

There was a blinking error code that indicated the condensate level was high, and it would shut itself off after a minute. I guessed maybe something was stuck in the pump? Anyway, I tapped on the side of the cassette to try to rattle it a bit and then it started working. Hasn't given any trouble since, but I tend to leave it turned on most of the time now.

If it continues you’ll want to open the unit up enough and rig up a way vacuum the pan. If it’s dirty try keep filling the pan/float with water and vacuuming the muddy water out.

Good luck with that. It's a cassette...

Tommy

 

[C2F]

Good luck with that. It's a cassette...

Tommy

I’ve disassembled LG cassettes before. It’s a lot easier than people make it out to be. Just DO NOT break the foam insulation. Also you don’t necessarily need to have eyes on the pump. Use a pump sprayer to get water into the pan and rig to a shop vacs hose and make a noozle small enough to get to the pan.

With a proper set up you’ll have the job done in 1 hour.. if that doesn’t solve it you’ll need to disassemble further to get to the pump. Also try blowing out the condensate drain back into the unit to clear and potential blockage. Try a lower pressure air first

 

[hilld]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I am thinking of this unit from Lowes for my garage. The house has a 4 head Daikin (2 ceiling cassettes and 2 wall units) already.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/DuctlessAi...onditioner-with-Heater-ENERGY-STAR/1000362987

Can save an addl 10% with military discount.

Anybody have any experience with DuctlessAire or should I go with another Daikin?

 

[Gerald O]

Long term reliabilty update:
Well the ceiling cassette unit finally failed. Actually this happened a couple months ago, but I was inspired to update this here now because I’m in the midst of installing another split system unit for the house, more on that later…

So the Friedrich system began performing poorly this summer. I checked the refrigerant pressures and found it was low. Couldn’t locate the leak with a cheapo sniffer, so I went ahead and recharged. That got it working again but it only lasted for another month. The leak had gotten worse enough that this time I was able to detect the ceiling cassette was the culprit.

It so happened that I never got around to installing the second zone indoor unit, so I had that extra cassette unit still in the box. Went ahead and replaced the leaking unit with the new one, and all has been well since. No further leaks detected - pressures are stable and it’s been performing properly since.

So, that amounts to about 11 years of trouble free service. The question arises; is it possible to repair the leaking unit? Maybe not worth bothering to try. Another issue this raises, are new compatible cassettes even available after 11 years? It could be many more years before I have to find out. Probably by then it might just need the whole system swapped out for whatever is current in the market, which won’t be R410a based for sure.

Oh, and the new system going into the house is a Mr Cool 2 ton R-454B based split ducted unit. This is replacing a badly leaking old R22 split system that was serving the 2nd floor of the house.
Interesting thing about this new system is that the outdoor condenser unit is essentially the same as the ones they use for their mini splits.

 

[Gerald O]

Also on the reliabilty topic, I just found that my Yellow Jacket vacuum pump has broken. Only used it a few times. Turns out that these have a plastic motor to pump coupling that is prone to breaking. I guess just time has degraded the plastic and it let go. Got a new metal coupling for a few dollars to repair it.