Old Walden Worcester

[3baygarage]

I've run into numerous of the breaker bar, ratchet and or t handle that were twisted at the stud. All were the black war finish I believe. I don't own any damages examples.

 

[d42jeep]

What drive size are we talking about? My experience with the dark finish Walden tools is primarily 1/4” drive and those black finish 1/4” drive ratchets are few and far between.
-Don

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I have one black ratchet but it's fine, just missing a screw

 

[d42jeep]

I think I have some stainless replacement screws. If I do, I’ll throw one in an envelope and mail it to you
-Don

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Thanks don I think a have some screws for it somewhere just have been procrastinating!

 

[d42jeep]

Okay. Let me know if you need one. I like that Tee handle set and that short extension is super rare!
-Don

 

[GalaxyRat]

Ordered two 4050 ratchets (3/8" drive) in the black oxide finish. Still waiting for the other one to get here tomorrow (2/15) which is way darker. The reason I'm posting about them now is because the one I have has a weird bend to it. Normal? I'm guessing not.

Also I love the milling remnants and the tiny knurling on the lever.

 

[d42jeep]

Mine seem fairly straight. Maybe a cheater was involved.
-Don

 

[GalaxyRat]

Mine seem fairly straight. Maybe a cheater was involved.
-Don

For what ever reason, the bend picture didn't upload. It is not where it should be if a cheater bar was used. It has a horizontal arch.

 

[bmwrd0]

Over the years I have picked up a few Walden 1/4" sets, some interesting, some not.

This is most of them, and, boy, do I need to clean up the blue set on the lower left. The two on the left are pretty standard from later years, but the other two are a little different.


The set in red is interesting as it is an industrial black set, and includes the 3121. The other set is interesting as the ratchet is a standard HVAC type, but the drive hole is 3/8", which I hadn't noticed until tonight.

Also, I picked this up over the weekend:


A 3/8" impact set. I need to keep my eyes open for a 1/2" and 7/16", but I thought the box was pretty neat.

I try to get pics of some other stuff tomorrow.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Walden worcester spintite 3118. Anyone know the story on these? Only one I have with black and yellow handle.

 

[d42jeep]

They are in great demand by wartime Walden collectors and are shown in the 3/1/44 Walden catalog. I have this one in my keeper early war MVMTS (motor vehicle mechanic tool set).
-Don

 

[GalaxyRat]

Walden worcester spintite 3118. Anyone know the story on these? Only one I have with black and yellow handle.

First time I've seen one, so not much help answering your question. But I love the two-tone handle!

 

[d42jeep]

I have one where the yellow needs a little touch up but I haven’t gotten around to it yet.
-Don

 

[3baygarage]

What drive size are we talking about? My experience with the dark finish Walden tools is primarily 1/4” drive and those black finish 1/4” drive ratchets are few and far between.
-Don

1/4 drive Don. There was a guy with a set that had two twisted ends. I’ve seen others first hand too. I’d imagine damaged examples are less likely to be seen on the online resale market, but I was wondering if you guys who are really into these and look for them knew of anything like that.

Interesting on the 3/8 rat..

 

[Ricky Joe]

For what ever reason, the bend picture didn't upload. It is not where it should be if a cheater bar was used. It has a horizontal arch.

My guess is that it got run over at some point. That is an odd arch.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I've never seen a twisted drive stud on any 40s era W-W handles, and my tools and sets have all come from PO's at flea markets. Have never heard any other collector say it, either. Now that I think about it, the only two twisted drive studs I have ever seen were NB. One on an NB proper hinge handle and the other on a Craftsman BE hinge handle. But those observations haven't changed my opinion of NB.

This conversation is a case study in why anecdotal info - pro or con, is statistically irrelevant in MTBF studies. Unless you have a large sample size and you're controlling the samples and the conditions in a test environment, it's all happenstance. They could've been abused. Or 7 of the 70 out of the 70,000 that were made that failed could've made their way to 3bay, while the rest of us have gotten ahold of or seen examples form the 69,930 that did not.

The set in red is interesting as it is an industrial black set, and includes the 3121.

They continued making them with a black oxide finish after the war, Beemer, when the finish became synonymous with what we now think of as an "industrial" grade line (in the military sector it was famously perfected by a company bearing Don's last name in 1942 in response to chrome-plating restrictions) and they switched the box color from green to red.

The thing is, though, the handles are indistinguishable. On top of that, there is ample evidence to suggest that the sockets in those red box sets (with just a large model number and a large 'WALDEN', and the two bands of knurling top and bottom that became plain grooves) were introduced in 1945. Some of yours actually look like early or midwar, from what I can see, which is also not unusual. Using up old stock.

See attached pic, all black ox, for wartime progression: Early - Long W full name with knurling, Mid - full name plain with knurling, and Late/postwar - just grooves, big model number and name. Size markings are different, too, but I am not showing.

I've seen enough "postwar" sockets in "wartime" sets, and "wartime" sockets in "postwar" sets to know that 1945 and 1946 were very fuzzy. There was a time the community used the number of hinge elements on the box to distinguish their age, but even that got fuzzy, too.

Put it this way - it is not at all inconceivable for the pieces in your set to be put into a green box and be a very nice and acceptable wartime set. I'm not suggesting you have any desire to do that. I'm just saying that to make a point about how pieces from this era of Walden production get collected and moved around and re-assembled by WWII guys. Me included!

 

[four.cycle]

bmw - that impact set is way cool. love the box.

 

[bmwrd0]

Here is my actual military set


This is how I found it (with the exception of the 1/4" coupler). I am pretty sure the spinner is either not original or was some sort of substitute standard. Not too sure if the breaker bar is original or a similar situation as the spinner. I wouldn't be surprised if it was what was "in the bin" when they were putting the set together.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Not too sure if the breaker bar is original

Looks like a wartime 3117 with a black ox finish to me. Then again, and to my point, so does the 3117 with a black ox finish in your red box set.

 

[d42jeep]

Although these aren’t my photos, they went a long way towards convincing me that Walden was shipping mixed styles of sockets from the factory. It’s fairly unusual to see wartime tools in a red Walden box. Most of my red boxes came with chrome plated tools.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Immediate postwar (Beemer's) versus later (yours). He still hasn't shown any close-ups, but I bet there are some early and mid wartime sockets in there with the wartime handles, too.

 

[d42jeep]

Don’t get me started. They we’re still offering the fridge ratchets after the war although I’m not sure that they would have been my preference.




-Don

 

[bmwrd0]

Looks like a wartime 3117 with a black ox finish to me. Then again, and to my point, so does the 3117 with a black ox finish in your red box set.

My only point re the black ox finish on the 3117 was that it is the only black ox piece in the set.

In any case, here are the sockets that came with it:

 

[Private Lugnutz]

In any case, here are the sockets

Those are legit wartime, for sure. Everything in that red box is wartime.

My only point re the black ox finish on the 3117 was that it is the only black ox piece in the set.

Okay. Gotcha. That hinge handle having a different finish than the other pieces wouldn't make me question its originality to the green wartime FSN box, though. I would be questioning the other pieces. The reefer rat is definitely not original to that box. Neither is the uni joint. If the sockets and other handles are cad or natural steel, they could be original, and it's not that unusual to see mixed finish sets. You can just picture W-W filling the boxes anyway they could. But it looks to me like a PO well after wartime cobbled that together. If the other pieces are chromed (I can't tell from here), the black ox hinge handle might ironically be the only original piece to that box.

If both sets were mine, I can tell you what I would do.

I would put all the black ox pieces from the red box inside that green FSN box and fill in the missing sockets with black ox finish sockets from my spares and extras. It would make an all black ox matching set in an FSN box that most WWII collectors would consider a ne plus ultra set.

I would put any cad or natural steel pieces from the green FSN box into a second spare green box, FSN or not, and look to fill that out as a second wartime set with other cad or natural steel pieces.

And lastly, I would put the reefer rat and the uni joint and any pieces that were not cad or natural steel in the red box.

That's not me telling you what to do. Just me showing you how I operate.

 

[d42jeep]

I’m not sure that the fridge ratchet wouldn’t have come in the FSN box. That’s the only ratchet that Walden was offering until 3/44. Other than that, I totally agree with Lugz.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I’m not sure that the fridge ratchet wouldn’t have come in the FSN box. That’s the only ratchet that Walden was offering until 3/44.

I'm well aware of that, Don, but that doesn't mean that the Ordnance Dept had to buy reefer sets from Walden to fulfill their 41-W-2615 motor vehicle midget set needs. If you look at it from their perspective, they had many other choices that met the spec just fine, most prominently Duro and S-K, as you well know. If I saw a fridge ratchet in any manual or any period photo or any period Ordnance Dept document associated with automotive maintenance, it would immediately appease my skepticism. But we have not, as far as I know.

On top of that, Walden's first contract ($204,000) for "SOCKET WRENCHES" with the Ordnance Dept was not awarded until June 1944. Three more ($162,000, $733,000, $57,000) followed on 8/44, 1/45, and 6/45. That, the fact that a Duro-Chrome set is featured in the midwar GMTK manual RAPD photo, and the FSN ink stamp on the Walden cases - where we do not see the FSN appear on any other mfgr's cases (e.g., Duro, S-K, NB, etc) - has always led me to figure that Walden was a latecomer to the GMTK midget set game and a late war supplier.

I'm pretty sure I've discussed this before and showed it in my 41-W-2615 Specs & Specimens charts on the original midget set thread on G503.com (not your thread, the first one), if you want to revisit in detail.

I could be wrong. Maybe they were buying them all along on smaller contracts, although that seems a very unlikely sequence to me given the huge contracts in swift succession and all the contracts they were awarding to Duro, S-K, and others.

Not a big deal, either way. Even if it just comes down to personal choice.

 

[d42jeep]

It seems to me that the FSN marked sets were made by Walden for quite a while based on the variety of finishes on not only the tools but the boxes, to say nothing of the design change of the boxes with the different style hinges. We may agree to disagree on this one.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I have never been swayed by the differences in box finishes and tool finishes necessarily indicating different production years, Don. It's not enough to overcome what everything else points to, for me. But no, we certainly don't need to agree.

The 41-W-2615 set that we have seen with the best provenance - provenance I tracked down for him, belongs to John in Australia. As you know, his set had a name inscribed on it, the name of a guy who was a torpedo man on the PT-190. Interestingly, Walden's contract with the Navy for "SOCKET WRENCHES" was awarded only one month earlier than the Ordnance Dept's, in May 1944. More significantly, it was found with only the spinner, the hinge handle, and most of the sockets. All black ox. No other handles.

Not to disparage John, for he hasn't done anything that many other collectors have done, and still do, but it looked sparse to him, and he considered the other pieces missing, and promptly filled his box up with a ratchet, an extension, and a sliding tee. Such is the impact that early and mid war set specs with more handles but fewer sockets (and 12-point sockets at that...) have had on GMTK collectors.

I have shown my current GMTK on the Lugzsonian thread, but I haven't really posted many of the details. I have outfitted it with a complete and completely spec-correct late war Walden set. I am quite happy with it, as is, but it has room for minor aesthetic improvements. The finish on the spinner (cad) and hinge handle (black ox) don't match, and if I had a chance to replace the WALDEN 3161, 3114, 3112, and 3106 with Long W versions, I probably would.

 

[JjKk40]

I have never been swayed by the differences in box finishes and tool finishes necessarily indicating different production years, Don. It's not enough to overcome what everything else points to, for me. But no, we certainly don't need to agree.

The 41-W-2615 set that we have seen with the best provenance - provenance I tracked down for him, belongs to John in Australia. As you know, his set had a name inscribed on it, the name of a guy who was a torpedo man on the PT-190. Interestingly, Walden's contract with the Navy for "SOCKET WRENCHES" was awarded only one month earlier than the Ordnance Dept's, in May 1944. More significantly, it was found with only the spinner, the hinge handle, and most of the sockets. All black ox. No other handles.

Not to disparage John, for he hasn't done anything that many other collectors have done, and still do, but it looked sparse to him, and he considered the other pieces missing, and promptly filled his box up with a ratchet, an extension, and a sliding tee. Such is the impact that early and mid war set specs with more handles but fewer sockets (and 12-point sockets at that...) have had on GMTK collectors.

I have shown my current GMTK on the Lugzsonian thread, but I haven't really posted many of the details. I have outfitted it with a complete and completely spec-correct late war Walden set. I am quite happy with it, as is, but it has room for minor aesthetic improvements. The finish on the spinner (cad) and hinge handle (black ox) don't match, and if I had a chance to replace the WALDEN 3161, 3114, 3112, and 3106 with Long W versions, I probably would.

Lugz, I'm looking for a few late wartime sockets with the big WALDEN and the 2 smooth lines to complete a set I found in my Dads tools. I would be willing to trade with you for the ones you need if your interested. Let me know and I'll see if the ones you have are what I need.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Pretty confident this set is all original, only because it was NOS. Sockets are mixed old and newer style.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Haha. Yeah, I'd say so. Did you see the spec I posted? Pic 4, last post. Assuming the sockets are all correct sizes, you have a perfect example.

JjKk - Yes. PM me.

 

[JjKk40]

I picked up this set filled with war time cad pieces. Does that name on the box ring any bells? Its hard to even make it out fully its so faded.

 

[Username already in use]

@JjKk40 neat stenciled box. I can’t really read it. Maybe a name? That’s an early wartime box. The hinge probably has 5 knuckles compared to the 6 on the box in the background.
I cropped your picture. Maybe someone else can read it.

 

[JjKk40]

@JjKk40 neat stenciled box. I can’t really read it. Maybe a name? That’s an early wartime box. The hinge probably has 5 knuckles compared to the 6 on the box in the background.
I cropped your picture. Maybe someone else can read it.

Oh wow yeah it has a hinge with 5 knuckles. I actually have 2 or 3 with the 5 knuckles and 2 or 3 with 6 knuckles. Very cool I've never noticed these differences before!

 

[d42jeep]

I think the first three letters are PFC so possibly a name.
-Don

 

[Ricky Joe]

Kind of off topic, but do any of you have a number 27 set? I mostly need the box, but also a couple of the sockets. Thanks.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I am seeing a last name that starts with a P, ends in ER (possibly), 6 or 7 letters, a comma, and two initials, like first name and last name. Like this:

PFEIFFER, R.W.

or

PELTIER, R.W.

Or something like that. It would be really cool if we deciphered it and could track it down like the box I was referring to above.

/// BREAK ///

Meanwhile, I was scrounging through one of my other partial sets and pulled these pieces out.

The socket is clearly contract. No branding. No grooves. No nothing. Just "3-8 MADE IN U.S.A." But it was in a Walden box and it sure looks like Walden to me. Probably late 40's or 50's Army if I had to guess. See Pics 2 & 3.

The No. 7404 3/8"F-to-(edit)9/32"M adaptor is one of the coolest Walden pieces I have found in these boxes. Also no knurling or grooves. Seems like it might also fall late 40s or 50s. See Pics 4, 5, 6 & 7.

 

[RTM]

I am seeing a last name that starts with a P, ends in ER (possibly), 6 or 7 letters, a comma, and two initials, like first name and last name. Like this:

PFEIFFER, R.W.

or

PELTIER, R.W.

I was at Pelter, needing the I for spacing, but a better photo, square on, with a different lighting might help more

 

[Private Lugnutz]

but a better photo, square on, with a different lighting might help more

Agreed. @JjKk40 - Post a few more in various lighter/darker situations. And do you know where (what part of the country) the box came from?