Packard Built Rolls Royce Merlin Tool Kit AT9368

[Private Lugnutz]

You're quite welcome. Brought to you by "Google Books"! (As a general reminder to all, as I've said time and time again, and also included in the 'Helpful Hints' in the Sticky at the top of the page, with no exaggeration, the deep and widespread digitization of old documents and their open accessibility through the "Google Books" project is the nighttime baseball and sliced bread of this and many other collecting hobbies. If you use Google Books instead of Google for your historical search engine, your results will increase astronomically.)

I found the last part of the second article excerpt, highlighted but not underlined, to be exceptionally acute, unintentionally funny, ironically, and obviously very telling in our privileged hindsight. The engineer couldn't help himself by not commenting on the pin's shocking simplicity, which we know did, of course, prove to be "eminently practicable" in service. I found documents throughout the 80's, 90's and up to the present still referring to their use.

 

[Farmer J.]

You're quite welcome. Brought to you by "Google Books"! (As a general reminder to all, as I've said time and time again, and also included in the 'Helpful Hints' in the Sticky at the top of the page, with no exaggeration, the deep and widespread digitization of old documents and their open accessibility through the "Google Books" project is the nighttime baseball and sliced bread of this and many other collecting hobbies. If you use Google Books instead of Google for your historical search engine, your results will increase astronomically.)

I found the last part of the second article excerpt, highlighted but not underlined, to be exceptionally acute, unintentionally funny, ironically, and obviously very telling in our privileged hindsight. The engineer couldn't help himself by not commenting on the pin's shocking simplicity, which we know did, of course, prove to be "eminently practicable" in service. I found documents throughout the 80's, 90's and up to the present still referring to their use.

Yes, I also enjoyed and raised a smile at that section of the second document..
I had forgot about Google Books. A few years ago I was doing some Cornish history research and found a reference my late Father had mentioned, I had been seeking it for 25 years but once available in digitised format it became easy to find.

 

[Dave455]

OK, slight thread drift coming up.. Apologies in advance! That giant clip in the toolkit which holds the sockets together in a bunch. I understand that it is called a 'Fokker Pin'.
Question, does anyone know if that has anything to do with Fokker aircraft, or was it invented by Anthony Fokker ? So far my research has not found the answer to this, but as some 'airplane guys' look at this thread maybe some of you know ..

The German word for these is “Fokkernadel” - exact translation “Fokker Needle”. The fact that it’s a German word, not Dutch, suggests that they originated from German built Fokkers, presumably from the First World War.

The best way to find out would be to go and visit somewhere with a collection of First World War aircraft (e,g. Shuttleworth Trust) and simply have a look.

In the U.K. these were always known as “Fokker Pins”, the word “Pin” better describing what they do. I had never doubted they originated from Fokker aircraft, but can’t give specific examples.

To British eyes, they look a bit dodgy (even that far back) and I wouldn’t fancy flying any aircraft that used them. I have seen them used on aircraft, but only gliders, and very old ones. Fine for storing crowfoot wrenches!

My Grandfather had a very old pin (pre war I’m sure) that he kept keys on. Being a First World War veteran he wouldn’t use a swear word like “Fokker” and just called it a ”big pin”! It’s still around somewhere.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The German word for these is “Fokkernadel” - exact translation “Fokker Needle”. The fact that it’s a German word, not Dutch, suggests that they originated from German built Fokkers, presumably from the First World War.

I had never doubted they originated from Fokker aircraft, but can’t give specific examples.

I can't tell from your reply if you read my reply, Dave. The earliest I was able to trace the term "Fokker pin" to an actual dated publication was 1923. Granted, an English language publication. The other publication, dated 1927, said that it been used by Fokker as a cowling fastener "for some time," without being more specific. That very well could be Germany, before he set up shop in the Netherlands, and then America. Technically, though, I'd have to disagree with the postulation that the mere existence of there being a word for them in German means they were invented in Germany. References to them in the German language in aviation circles in the 20's, well after Fokker left for the Netherlands and America, would have used the same term.

 

[Dave455]

I can't tell from your reply if you read my reply, Dave. The earliest I was able to trace the term "Fokker pin" to an actual dated publication was 1923. Granted, an English language publication. The other publication, dated 1927, said that it been used by Fokker as a cowling fastener "for some time," without being more specific. That very well could be Germany, before he set up shop in the Netherlands, and then America. Technically, though, I'd have to disagree with the postulation that the mere existence of there being a word for them in German means they were invented in Germany. References to them in the German language in aviation circles in the 20's, well after Fokker left for the Netherlands and America, would have used the same term.

I did, though I struggled to read the first extract on my tablet!

I was merely adding what I know from my own experiences in the aviation world, and from the terms used in my own family, which has been involved in aviation since the First World War.

I have, in the past, inspected an original Fokker D.VII, and I don’t recall seeing any “Fokker Pins”, but I wasn’t really looking at the time. I may have a chance to examine an original Eindecker in a few weeks, so I’ll have a look if I have time, and remember!

I would be very surprised if the first “Fokker Pin” postdates the First World War, but it’s feasible.

Their use in gliders included parts of the control system. A purpose for which they are totally inadequate!

 

[Dave455]

By coincidence, I was e mailed a picture today, of a British Army Vehicle Mechanics tool kit.

Storing sockets in a tool roll has always been awkward. In this case they have attempted to provide an individual pocket for each socket.

I think that the solution of storing sockets on a Fokker Pin in one pocket, as on the AT9368 kit, is much more practical!

 

[Dave455]

There’s a guy on U.K. fleabay selling some AT marked sockets. I know they are not on snapmom’s hitlist, but perhaps of interest to some.

There’s still a lot of this stuff out there!

 

[Graeme]

Some AT spanners I found recently.
Digging around as to what they were, eventually led me here!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

If wrenches could only talk!

 

[snapmom]

AT8065 Diamalloy 4" Adjustable wrench made by Diamond Calk. Its quite rare. Fits in the AT9211 kit and the AT9368 kit
It would be nice to have all these kits, I think there are three major kits. could be more.
AT9211 Var. merlin 33-38. Mosquito, and Lancaster planes
AT9212 Var. Merlin 68, V1650-3 engine in the Mustang 51B and C
AT9368 Var Merling 68-69. Mustang 51B, C, D, F, K

 

[MR.X]

AT8065 Diamalloy 4" Adjustable wrench made by Diamond Calk. Its quite rare. Fits in the AT9211 kit.
my kit is the AT9368. the AT8095 is a small comb. wrench. (I still need it).
It would be nice to have all these kits, I think there are three major kits. could be more.
AT9211 Var. merlin 33-38. Mosquito, and Lancaster planes
AT9212 Var. Merlin 68, V1650-3 engine in the Mustang 51B and C
AT8368 Var Merling 68-69. Mustang 51B, C, D, F, K

AT8095? also, you say your kit is the AT9368 but then you refer to a 8368 is that just a typo or? And finally you say the pictured 8065 "fits in the AT9211 kit." but doesn't it go with your AT9368 as well?

 

[snapmom]

AT8095? also, you say your kit is the AT9368 but then you refer to a 8368 is that just a typo or? And finally you say the pictured 8065 "fits in the AT9211 kit." but doesn't it go with your AT9368 as well?

Whats left of my brain is getting very old. will fix the thread, .

Update: the AT8065 is an adjustable, not a comb. wrench

 

[isb cornbinder]

Subscribed. I will keep my eye out!

Brian

You may like to put your eye back in the socket every so often. Eye drops may be a good carry-a-long. Dryness could be a problem. Here in Canada I often hear, " I will keep a look out for you." I have never seen a look, although my wife say she has given me more than a few.

 

[MR.X]

from an AT 9211

 

[Smokeshow69]

from an AT 9211

Wow those small tools would be really easy to miss as junk and throw away. Really cool find!

 

[Dave455]

I posted about these before, but I was rummaging through my stores earlier, so took some more pics.

I have a fair number (probably 40 to 50) AT-8019 sockets.

They don’t look great at first, having been stored since the war.


But with a quick clean up they’re not in bad shape. Some of the chrome is a bit thin, but they are probably 80 years old.


Most are obviously unused, as can be seen from the interior. They really are “new, old stock”.


One or two have a rougher finish, so I suspect were originally cleaned off some decades ago, and were modified with a spring clip.


If anybody needs one to complete a set, ping me a PM.

 

[MR.X]

current auction...stamped AT-8027 but appears to be a standard Snap On valve tool with screwdriver blade.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I saw that

 

[snapmom]

There is a plomb at8027 also

 

[MR.X]

There is a plomb at8027 also

Hi. My point is that the one in the auction doesn't appear to actually be an AT 8027.

 

[d42jeep]

Hi. My point is that the one in the auction doesn't appear to actually be an AT 8027.

A couple of close ups from the auction.
-Don

 

[snapmom]

Hi. My point is that the one in the auction doesn't appear to actually be an AT 8027.

You are right, it looks like its been changed or modified, missing the socket too.

 

[MR.X]

A couple of close ups from the auction

Yes it’s marked AT 8027 but the drive end should not be a screwdriver, it should be a small 4 point. One is visible in Snapmom’s pictures of the Plomb.

 

[snapmom]

the S/O

 

[MR.X]

the S/O

Thanks. I'm not near my examples currently.

 

[MR.X]

Thanks. I'm not near my examples currently.

Oh wait.....miraculously found a pic in my non existent filing "system".

 

[ZRX61]

I have similar SO tools for radial valve adjustment... (Just to the right of the German 88 shell, in front of the conrod)

 

[MR.X]

I have similar SO tools for radial valve adjustment... (Just to the right of the German 88 shell, in front of the conrod)

So are yours the Pratt & Whitney type or?

 

[Provincial]

Wright and Pratt & Whitney valve adjustment is very similar. Form follows function!

 

[MR.X]

My point is there are at LEAST a 100 Snap on platform PWA 2835’s to every AT 8027. They’re not interchangeable, I was trying to see what he meant by “similar” without looking like I was chitting on his cool display. After Don posted the closeups of the tool # but not the adjusting mechanism , I was trying to make clear I wasn’t questioning the number stamped on the eBay auction tool I was pointing out that despite the stamping it wasn’t actually an AT 8027. That’s why I and Snapmom posted pics of the socket inside the socket of actual Rolls Packard Merlin AT8027 adjusters as opposed to the screwdriver blade of the auction in question or for that matter the the 1075's drive that looks like a Carter or Zenith fork blade spanner piece.

 

[MR.X]

My point is there are at LEAST a 100 Snap on platform PWA 2835’s to every AT 8027. They’re not interchangeable, I was trying to see what he meant by “similar” without looking like I was chitting on his cool display. After Don posted the closeups of the tool # but not the adjusting mechanism , I was trying to make clear I wasn’t questioning the number stamped on the eBay auction tool I was pointing out that despite the stamping it wasn’t actually an AT 8027. That’s why I and Snapmom posted pics of the socket inside the socket of actual Rolls Packard Merlin AT8027 adjusters as opposed to the screwdriver blade of the auction in question.

Edited to include “Packard” to Rolls Merlin before someone points out that the UK tool looked nothing like the Plomb or Snap-On Packard toolkit versions.

 

[snapmom]

By some minor miracle I found a AT8030 pick up tool. I only need one tool to finish the set. Its a six or eight pronged socket model AT9209. similar to the one pictured. Would like to find another feeler gauge as mine is in poor condition model AT8036.

 

[Smokeshow69]

I’m not sure if this is the correct thread but I wonder if this Wright Aeronautical offset wrench would have appeared in a similar kit, if not in this thread title one?

 

[Leviton]

I found this guy in the midwest at a thrift store last week.
It is marked:

5/16W-AT-8008​

WOEX110​

601​

It looks like it was probably cadmium plated.

I've read through the thread, and I'm still a bit confused. I'm trying to figure out what I can say about this wrench. Can you help?

- Based on the WOEX110 marking, is it safe to assume that this wrench was made by Snap-On?

- It looks like there was never a firm decision on what the "AT" means. Does the "AT" marking at least mean that it was made to be part of a tool kit, or for aircraft, and was not a wrench that was available to the civilian auto mechanic or to the general public?

I only need one tool to finish the set. Its a six or eight pronged socket model AT9209.

THIS ^ is pretty exciting! I wish you luck. Looking forward to hearing you finally acquired the last piece.

 

[snapmom]

Blue Point, later (about 48) changed to Snap on. Made for the Military.
Sometimes you just get lucky

 

[Dave455]

I found this guy in the midwest at a thrift store last week.
It is marked:

5/16W-AT-8008​

WOEX110​

601​

It looks like it was probably cadmium plated.

I've read through the thread, and I'm still a bit confused. I'm trying to figure out what I can say about this wrench. Can you help?

- Based on the WOEX110 marking, is it safe to assume that this wrench was made by Snap-On?

- It looks like there was never a firm decision on what the "AT" means. Does the "AT" marking at least mean that it was made to be part of a tool kit, or for aircraft, and was not a wrench that was available to the civilian auto mechanic or to the general public?


THIS ^ is pretty exciting! I wish you luck. Looking forward to hearing you finally acquired the last piece.

Good find!

Snapmom, as always, has the definitive answer!

A couple more bits of info.

Yes, a Blue Point wrench at the time, which later became branded Snap On.

Snap On still make essentially the same wrench, with essentially the same part number. Here’s one of mine.


Blue Point made quite a selection of tools in Whitworth / BS sizes.

Here’s a full length box end wrench.


And an “aerospace” style box end.

The aerospace style wrenches in BS sizes are relatively hard to find. I have a fairly full set of the Blue Point, and I know of a couple of other sets, both owned by aircraft engineers.

The fact that these wrenches are circa 80 years old, and still in use, is testament to the quality.

No, I don’t think we ever definitively established what “AT” means. All the tools do seem to be for aircraft applications, but they are not exclusively Whitworth / BS, and certainly not exclusively for Packard Merlin tool kits (though that’s one of the places they are found in the U.S.)

Here in the U.K. we see a good many of the tools. Some of them “AT“ marked, some of them not. I’m keeping an eye out for Snapmom’s outstanding AT9209!

 

[Smokeshow69]

Plomb AT-8027 with AT-8027 3/16w socket

I picked up this AT- 8027 cadmium plated socket today. No other markings aside from the socket number but it was cad plated so I knew to buy it and research it. Pictures are not good but you get the point. I thought originally the owner made a mark but now I’m wondering if the W refers to whitworth?

 

[snapmom]

It’s looks more like a owners mark

 

[Smokeshow69]

It’s looks more like a owners mark

I’m not saying it’s factory. Definitely could be a field marking for sure.

 

[z28lsc]

Could this be a plomb made wrench for Ranger A/T?