Pliers; How Many Is Too Many?

[d42jeep]

The handle pattern definitely is that of Proto and Challenger.
-Don

 

[d42jeep]

Barcalo may have held that patent but I haven’t seen the pattern used on any of my pliers.
-Don

 

[Oregon Dave]

OK, here is one I am trying to ID. Just got it in a box of tools at a garage sale. Tried finding a similar on here and elsewhere with no luck.

The grip pattern reminds me of Proto. The U.S.A. in a hexagon seems to stir a memory of similar on a Diamond Calk tool I had except it was inside a stretched diamond shape.
What you see in the photo are the only markings. Next to the U.S.A. in hexagon is a small circle with a r in it for a registered trade mark I believe.
There is also a small 6 stamped there.
They do not look like high quality pliers.
Anyone know the maker? Thanks.

It would be helpful if you would post a straight-on overhead picture of the handle grip.

 

[Debcrow]

It would be helpful if you would post a straight-on overhead picture of the handle grip.

OK, here you go.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Next to the U.S.A. in hexagon is a small circle with a R in it for a registered trade mark I believe.

The P&C hex is similar to your USA hex

This is a brilliant observation, LS, and it sure does look like Debcrow is right about the Registered TM symbol. The tool is later than my collecting window, but tangentially, it's a fascinating case raising some interesting questions.

When P&C Hand Forged Tool Co. applied for TM No. 572863 (in 1951, claiming first use in 1926) and it was registered (1953), they were already owned by Plomb Tool Co, but the "P&C" is an essential part of the TM and they of course made no claims to just an elongated hexagon itself - or to "U.S.A." or any other letters inside of it.

When do we think these pliers were made? Pendleton Tool Industries, Inc. owned the TM because they owned P&C, but they closed P&C in the late 1960's.

It would have to be considered a very liberal use of the Registered TM symbol, even before they closed it, and even bolder, in my opinion, if they were using it after P&C closed, and implying it evoked and was covered by the original TM.

I'm wondering if PTII applied for a new similar TM, i.e., elongated hex shape with U.S.A. inside it? That would make more sense, alluding to P&C, but nationalizing the old symbol, so to speak, before they closed it.

I may have to research this.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Well, that didn't take long!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

And @Debcrow 's assessment...

They do not look like high quality pliers.

...was also spot on.

I paged through the 1959 P&C catalog scanning for pliers with this 'U.S.A.-in-a-Hex' TM instead of the 'P&C-in-a-Hex' TM. No dice. Then I checked the 1963 P&C catalog. Same thing. No dice.

Then I looked a little harder and I finally found them.

They didn't even give them a photo! (Scroll down to the bottom of the page.)

 

[Debcrow]

Thanks. As always, great people on here with a lot of knowledge and talent for finding things!

 

[Skyman]

Thanks. As always, great people on here with a lot of knowledge and talent for finding things!

Indeed. It continues to amaze me.

 

[Eric Brown]

Hairstyling Tool Used for making Pin Curls Fire heated

I've been looking into these a little more and the answer is really not clear yet. If I search for Dixie pliers I can find a bunch the refer to them as seaming pliers. They are in at least three different sizes, 1,2,3. Most do not show the wooden tapered mandrel like above. They could have been lost over the years. But here is a thought: Could these have been used for making funnel spouts shaping the funnel with the mandrel and then soldering them? I really have not found any information about how they would be used on hair. There are other plier like tools for hair but the hair could easily be put into them. This one just looks awkward to use that way. However, I also have not found them yet mentioned by tinsmiths. On the other hand the Adoration pliers apparently were made by a company (Giesen & Forsthoff) that mostly made grooming tools like razors and such. Guess I need more research.

 

[RTM]

If I search for Dixie pliers I can find a bunch the refer to them as seaming pliers.

Is that google including eBay, or google books?

While I get metric boatloads of results in the former, only 6 in the latter, none relevant, when searching for

Dixie Tinsmith Pliers

I suspect this is a case of one person saying it’s a seamer tool, and 37,000 people copying the idea. None realize it’s a hair tool.

I suspect that if this was a metalworking tool, PEXTO would sell something similar, but all their seamers are straight, not Round

Pexto Machines and Tools for Sheet Metal Work : Catalog No. 35 A : Peck, Stow & Wilcox Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

116 p., illus., 27.9 cm, trade catalog

archive.org

Even their roofing tools, several pages prior, are straight

 

[Eric Brown]

Is that google including eBay, or google books?

While I get metric boatloads of results in the former, only 6 in the latter, none relevant, when searching for

Dixie Tinsmith Pliers

I suspect this is a case of one person saying it’s a seamer tool, and 37,000 people copying the idea. None realize it’s a hair tool.

I suspect that if this was a metalworking tool, PEXTO would sell something similar, but all their seamers are straight, not Round

Pexto Machines and Tools for Sheet Metal Work : Catalog No. 35 A : Peck, Stow & Wilcox Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

116 p., illus., 27.9 cm, trade catalog

archive.org

Even their roofing tools, several pages prior, are straight

That is why it's puzzling. I also haven't found where these types of pliers are used on hair.
(It was my e-bay search for Dixie pliers that turned up all the seamers).
I also have not found a Dixie company yet that might shed some light on the subject.

 

[Oregon Dave]

That is why it's puzzling. I also haven't found where these types of pliers are used on hair.
(It was my e-bay search for Dixie pliers that turned up all the seamers).
I also have not found a Dixie company yet that might shed some light on the subject.

I mentioned earlier: the ball ends and open space between the ball end and pivot are for a German reason; very practical in application.

Have you considered posting to a more Germanish thread; the right German sees it Bingo.

To me, way too heavy and over-built for hair tooling.

 

[RTM]

also have not found a Dixie company yet that might shed some light on the subject

Remember things like Worth is a sub- brand of PEXTO.

And Shapleigh hardware had dozens of sub brands that they sold.

You may never find a maker. You may find a retailer named Dixie or a sub brand of somebody called Dixie which will be a whole lot harder to find.

 

[Eric Brown]

I mentioned earlier: the ball ends and open space between the ball end and pivot are for a German reason; very practical in application.

Have you considered posting to a more Germanish thread; the right German sees it Bingo.

To me, way too heavy and over-built for hair tooling.

I agree about the circular area. It was either used for forming or some kind of clearance. Looking at the other ones on e-bay I do not see much marking on the clamping faces. The pivots are not made very strong either. The earlier pair of Adoration have thin handles, so not great strength. I'm thinking the flat faces are acting as stops and the round head has enough mass to keep heat at the head. If you tried to use curling hair on a head, you would need three hands. One on the handle. One the mandrel, and one on the hair. Don't know about wigs. My book of patterns show a bunch of "pinching irons", which have an egg shaped clamping area with flat jaws. They do not have the round opening. That pattern book also has a bunch of very long nosed pliers for curling hair. Basically a round shaft that goes into a half tube. These are more like modern designs except for how they are heated.

 

[Oregon Dave]

I agree about the circular area. It was either used for forming or some kind of clearance. Looking at the other ones on e-bay I do not see much marking on the clamping faces. The pivots are not made very strong either. The earlier pair of Adoration have thin handles, so not great strength. I'm thinking the flat faces are acting as stops and the round head has enough mass to keep heat at the head. If you tried to use curling hair on a head, you would need three hands. One on the handle. One the mandrel, and one on the hair. Don't know about wigs. My book of patterns show a bunch of "pinching irons", which have an egg shaped clamping area with flat jaws. They do not have the round opening. That pattern book also has a bunch of very long nosed pliers for curling hair. Basically a round shaft that goes into a half tube. These are more like modern designs except for how they are heated.

Send it to the general thread; ask Monte at

Tools from the old world​

, sells German tools, he'll know or knows somebody that does.

 

[Nobody-named-Olli]

@Eric Brown I was steered towards this thread/ your pliers by @Oregon Dave .

Giesen and Forsthoff started out as a manufacturer for bladed weapons in 1920 as far as I know, they also manufactured pocket knives (I have one of these in my collection.). So “pliers” might not be as far away as the current “corporate identity” would suggest.

I’ll take it you didn’t get a reply to your e-mail yet? Give it some time, they might have to dig down deep.

In regards to their straight razors from back in the day, ”Adoration” marked razors were the top line.

I don’t recognize the general type of pliers as anything I have seen before, sorry.

Kind regards,
Olli

 

[Steven 33]

Hudson Forge Co. Parrots-Head Combination Plier

Alloy Artifacts says, “We added this entry as a place to display tools bearing the "Hudson Forge" marking, but have suspected for some time that the "Hudson Forge Co" was a brand rather than an actual tool company.

This suspicion was recently (2021) confirmed with the discovery of trademark #230,183, which displays the text "Hudson Forge Co" in a circular logo. The trademark was issued to the W.T. Grant Company in 1927.” http://alloy-artifacts.org/other-makers-p3.html

They add that this Parrot-Head’s Handle pattern “closely resembles the checkered pattern used by J.P. Danielson” A Parrot-Head identical to this one appears in their discussion.

I think I have a couple Hudson Forge. But some random ones here Palmer Bros welloct and Electra?

 

[LesserSon]

Dunno anything about Electra.
Palmer Bros has a thread. Not a ton of info.
I regrettably passed up a Palmer Bros mfd Signal Corps linesmans pliers once, but I do have the angled Welloct pliers I linked, and a Bonney-branded slipjoints manufactured by them.

The Welloct patent is a pivot pin design.

 

[Steven 33]

Dunno anything about Electra.
I regrettably passed up a Palmer Bros Signal Corps linesmans pliers once, but I do have a Bonney slipjoint manufactured by them.

The Welloct patent is a pivot pin design.

I have some of those around somewhere. Trying to sort through them all currently.

 

[LesserSon]

Alloy Artifacts has a page on Palmer Bros, too.

 

[Mintgrun]

I recently found the Kraeuter 51-8 pliers and it inspierd me to snap these photos of the rest of the bunch, which includes a pair of Palmer 768 pliers. Plus, PROTO 228, UTICA (no. 31 & 82), CHANNELOCK (no. 378 & 3078) and CRAFTSMAN.



I reshaped the tips of the PROTO pair because one of the tips was broken off. I will clean up the pair of UTICA no. 82 pliers too, since someone's already done a crude job of it.

 

[Eric Brown]

I recently found the Kraeuter 51-8 pliers and it inspierd me to snap these photos of the rest of the bunch, which includes a pair of Palmer 768 pliers. Plus, PROTO 228, UTICA (no. 31 & 82), CHANNELOCK (no. 378 & 3078) and CRAFTSMAN.



I reshaped the tips of the PROTO pair because one of the tips was broken off. I will clean up the pair of UTICA no. 82 pliers too, since someone's already done a crude job of it.

One of my favorite pliers to use, they just balance so nice on my hand. Good group.

 

[Eric Brown]

Well, well! Thank you, @Oregon Dave
I didn’t even notice the grip pattern on Don’s new heavy duty dikes. Now I do see the central diamond. And a quick dip elsewhere on the web does reveal several pliers with both the “Witherby England” and the chevron/diamond grips, though many Witherby pliers have smooth grips. One linesmans says only “Witherby” but forged in Germany, and two slipjoints say “Witherby” but forged in Japan.
So, Witherby-branded pliers made in England sometimes have that grip pattern, and some Witherby pliers were sourced outside England.
I compared my own chevron/diamond pliers’ model numbers (where visible) to similar models online, with no exact matches, but there may be a digit substitution pattern that would match them. I want more information about Witherby, and more examples of these pliers.
Here is a post on Progress is Fine that comes to a similar “maybe, but” conclusion.

Just got this pair of Witherby pliers, Made in Germany. Model 1517. Tried to match the handle pattern with others and did find one, a Fulton, but still don't know who made it. 7 1/4" long. Inside both handles is Germany Drop Forged. The handle pattern is a flat diamond shaped with rounded ends. I have other pliers with a similar pattern but with only one end rounded and the other squared off.

 

[Eric Brown]

Fulton pliers had only two main sources from what I’ve found so far. United Hardware & Tool Corp and Sears Roebuck & Co. Neither actually made the tools themselves but used contracted suppliers. United Hardware probably imported mostly from Germany. Sears used both foreign and domestic for the Fulton line, with most being German. Since knowing who actually made which tool is difficult, I decided to collect German made pliers and compare them to the Fulton ones hoping some features would match. The following group starts off with the first seven having the end of the pliers having a nose that widens at the tip, being relieved the most at the cutter. The last three have a common parallel nose. The first seven also have flush cutters with a rectangular opening while the last three are raised a little with a round opening.

From L-R: 1)UH Corp, Made in Germany, with Drop Forged inside both handles, 2) UH Hardware, Fulton, Tool Co, Germany, 3) UH Hardware, Fulton, Tool Co, Germany, 4) Sears Roebuck & Co, Germany, Fulton, Extra, 5) Spiegel Brothers, NW York, Germany, 6) Sears Roebuck & Co, Germany, Fulton, 7)M.W. Weber, 8) P.L. Schmidt, Mason Symbol, Elberfeld, Germany on handle, 9) Elberfeld 3697 on one side, P.L. Schmidt, Germany, Elberfeld on other side, 10) Boker & Co, crossed arrows, Germany. Note: Last three also have ends of handles shaped as screw drivers and puncture points.





The handle patterns vary from ornate to knurled, to knurled with a diamond shape in the middle and the last one has more of a square. At the ends of the patterns there are lines. Sometime single, sometimes double, some both, some are bands. #2 and #3 match pictures in the United Hardware & Tool catalog of 1929 page 9, while #8 and #9 seem to match page 10, indicating a possible match of Schmidt being a producer for them.

 

[d42jeep]

If I had to do it over again, I would have left these behind.
They came out of the evaporust yesterday and I hit them pretty hard with the wire wheel!
They turned out to be Williams USA marked.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Sometimes you just gotta say no, Don!

(I wonder if I opened a guest wing of the Lugzsonian if I could make a go of it in retirement as a sort of retreat house for recovering tool addicts. Ya know, like AA for toolhounds. Or Est for a more positive spin on it. I'd need to grow a yogi beard. )

On the other hand, if it's any consolation, I can see why you may have been interested. The only slip-joints I more selectively bring home are a brand/marking I don't already have, a different length to a brand/marking I already have, or something truly unusual. Those are actually an unusual combination with the ****- or linesman-like side-cutters at the back of the jaws like that with a flush pivot. Frankly, of the dozens of combination slip-joints I have, I don't think I have any quite like that.

Williams didn't make their own pliers. I don't know anything about that era Williams with that marking, though. Those might be Diamond. Or Utica. The grip patterns are similar.

EDIT: After looking at a few catalogs, I am thinking Diamond.

Here's a Diamond...



And here's a Utica...

 

[Eric Brown]

Fulton slip joint pliers. All marked FULTON. Top pair the Fulton is inside a rectangle and has a thin nose. Middle two both have the number 312.1 (J.P. Danielson). The two middle ones look the same except one has a textured grip and the other plain.

 

[Eric Brown]

Fulton pliers. First three are only marked with FULTON while the last three are marked FULTON TOOL CO.

 

[LesserSon]

If I had to do it over again, I would have left these behind.
They came out of the evaporust yesterday and I hit them pretty hard with the wire wheel!
They turned out to be Williams USA marked.
-Don

Sometimes you just gotta say no, Don!

(I wonder if I opened a guest wing of the Lugzsonian if I could make a go of it in retirement as a sort of retreat house for recovering tool addicts. Ya know, like AA for toolhounds. Or Est for a more positive spin on it. I'd need to grow a yogi beard. )

On the other hand, if it's any consolation, I can see why you may have been interested. The only slip-joints I more selectively bring home are a brand/marking I don't already have, a different length to a brand/marking I already have, or something truly unusual. Those are actually an unusual combination with the ****- or linesman-like side-cutters at the back of the jaws like that with a flush pivot. Frankly, of the dozens of combination slip-joints I have, I don't think I have any quite like that.

Williams didn't make their own pliers. I don't know anything about that era Williams with that marking, though. Those might be Diamond. Or Utica. The grip patterns are similar.

EDIT: After looking at a few catalogs, I am thinking Diamond.

Here's a Diamond...



And here's a Utica...

I think Utica 513, partly because of the subtle gullwing flair at the ends of the grips, which the Diamond illustration does not show, partly for the more attenuated jaws v Diamonds bulldog look, but also that the grip pattern includes the classic Utica “speed bumps” at the ends of the depressed diamonds.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, LS.

Out of curiosity, and for a sense of scope, other than the Utica 513, how many of that type do you own and who made them?

I gotta say, I double-checked my own collection even though I am pretty sure I would've remember having one. I don't. I also did some searching here on GJ, on "side-cutter" and "side-cutting" in combination with "slip-joint". That's not exhaustive, because it will only pull up tools that people named in text, obviously. Your Utica 513 is the only one I found.

 

[LesserSon]

I’m going to have to do some digging to find these Craftsman, to see what grip pattern they have. The profile of the head makes me think Utica, but the handles don’t.

I have just two pair Utica-branded.
EDIT - that turned out to be a lie; I have four pairs. Here are recently-exhumed pairs.


Bonney:

Top three are Bonney-branded Utica-mfd. Then two Bonney branded, Danielson-mfd, and a “UTEE-CO” Danielson-mfd at bottom.

The rest that I can lay hands on are all Forged Steel Products / VacuumGrip.

I think someone posted a pair of slip-joint diagonal cutters recently. I’ve picked them up to look at, but don’t see the practicality of them, or these. If I had to cut something thick enough to need the wider jaw position, I’d prefer a bigger tool with longer handles for the leverage.

 

[Eric Brown]

Another German group. These all share the same pivot design, a fixed rivet. The first two are marked DGRM, Bruno Will, Germany.
The next one is Ritter Carlton, Integrity, Germany. The last tow are similar but the first on (#5) has West Germany and 1372 Drop Forged on the handle. The last one (#6) only has 001372 Drop Forged on the handle. Both have interesting handle designs. These are similar to some of the Bonney's a few posts back.

 

[Outlawmws]

“UTEE-CO” Danielson-mfd at bottom.

Isn't “UTEE-CO” Utica? (leveraging "Cee-Tee...) or am I misremembering?

 

[LesserSon]

“UTEE-Co,”which I’ve tried to rationalize as a collaboration between JP Danielson and Utica Tool Co or the Utica Cutlery Co to go head-to-head with Crescent’s “CEE TEE Co.” There’s a pair of Danielson-mfd diamonds-grip pattern slipjoints on eBay that very cleary say “UTEE-CO / UTICA, N.Y.” with S91 code on one handle.


I think that’s X92 and V13 for alphanumeric codes.
EDIT - found catalog evidence that Danielson did mess around with cute brands. Dan-Co Jim

Isn't “UTEE-CO” Utica? (leveraging "Cee-Tee...) or am I misremembering?

They remain a mystery to me, but both of Danielson’s grip patterns are represented.

(If I collected Kraeuter) I would expect to find examples of sidecutter slipjoints, based on the illustration on the design patent (for grip pattern) I posted upthread.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

If I had to cut something thick enough to need the wider jaw position, I’d prefer a bigger tool with longer handles for the leverage.

Agreed, and I was prepared to conclude it's perhaps the reason why they are so uncommon, i.e., low demand, low production, low numbers in the hands of collectors, but I was surprised to see you've found so many. I never see them. Or maybe I subconsciously ignore them. Thanks for the inventory effort, by the way.

 

[LesserSon]

So not one, but two pairs of Craftsman sidecutter slipjoints, both with nested diamonds grip pattern. Finding them was tricky, but worthwhile, because I put away a wayward pair of same-era dikes that had been laying around.

 

[LesserSon]

I say that I don’t collect Kraeuter - I don’t! I really don’t! - but then I find these in a box while looking for those Craftsman. And they weren’t alone.

 

[Outlawmws]

I say that I don’t collect Kraeuter - I don’t! I really don’t! - but then I find these in a box while looking for those Craftsman. And they weren’t alone.

I do collect Kraeuter. they made good tools until the latter years and getting away from pliers.

 

[LesserSon]

I have nothing against their quality.
When I first started buying old tools, I picked up about a dozen Kraeuter pliers. I started noticing there seemed to be no end to the variety of steels, brands, patterns, finishes, grip patterns…a bottomless pit of collecting, as I saw it at the time. So I vowed to stop buying them.