Pliers; How Many Is Too Many?

[Eric Brown]

Just got another German plier but it's not for my Fulton study. It is marked with a 22 on the outside of one handle and Germany on the inside of the other. It is unusual because of the bullseye rings around the pivot on both sides. These rings appear to be stamped.
About 5 3/8" long. The jaws are very worn but they look smooth at the tips. One side wire cutter. Anybody have ideas as to maker? If I were to guess I would think late 1800's to early 1900's.

Just found two more being offered on E-Bay. One is marked J.F.M.C. and the other F.M.C. Where the first one was marked mine has been ground off. Probably be the seller thinking it was a owners mark and not a makers mark. Anybody know anything about J.F.M.C.?

 

[RTM]

Official Gazette of the United States Patent and Trademark Office Patents · Volume 1119, Issues 4-5 1990

Has a JFMC listed in Rutherford NJ, but no idea if they are an importer, furniture dealer, etc.

Also listed in 1983, no idea how much earlier.

Not listed on Wolfgang's site.

 

[Eric Brown]

Vom Cleff tools that I have. Info I found about him:

(Name removed), I can add just a little more-Goin's Enclyclopedia of Cutlery Markings dates it to 1885-1926. Throughout the company existence, their headquarters was literally next door to Boker. Vom Cleff was located at 105 Duane St. NY and Boker was next door at 101-103 Duane St., NY. In all likelihood, they got their deliveries from the same trucks. LOL.-A fairly rare knife, and yours appears to be in great condition for it's age--I am assuming you bought it off of ebay for $129.- Worth that or more. Most sources list Vom Cleff knives as medium in the value range, but it is hard to find a 100 year old knife in such fine condition IMHO, a good snag on a very well made old German knife. BTW, that is not the first Vom Cleff I have seen with that purse-like case--- That is indeed the case that goes with that knife, thus adding to its value----

Vom Cleff & Co. according to the Official Guide to Collector knives was imported from 1887- 1930. Some info on the founder of the import co https://books.google.com/books?id=LSEtAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA184&lpg...

Pair of 6" outside calipers marked Vom Cleff & Co NY, pair of scissor like cutters (maybe for lettuce?) marked Vom Cleff & Co Germany D.R.G.M., Vom Cleff & Co Germany Corn Razor, also marked on blade, 2 pairs of pliers marked on the inside of the handles, VC&Co Germany, 2 pairs of pliers 1st marked Acier Fondl & VC Co on top of handles with France inside one handle, 2nd pair marked France VC&Co on top of handles and Acierfondu.

One pair each from Germany and France have similar box joints. Have joints similar to Wenz and Elko. Will do a separate post on pliers from Europe with box joints for comparisons.

Adding one more Vom Cleff to my collection. This one was very rusty but found a partial name of VC & Co and I think Germany underneath.
Unusual shape. Some of the thinnest handles and the long flat jaws not only have interlocking straight teeth, it has a cross gripping pattern on the outside of just one jaw, and it has wear showing it was used. Any idea as to function?

 

[ararat]

Adding one more Van Cleff to my collection. This one was very rusty but found a partial name of VC & Co and I think Germany underneath.
Unusual shape. Some of the thinnest handles and the long flat jaws not only have interlocking straight teeth, it has a cross gripping pattern on the outside of just one jaw, and it has wear showing it was used. Any idea as to function?

For stretching leather/ canvas, I believe.

 

[four.cycle]

leather work?

 

[ararat]

Slip joint side cutters. Not sure what they would be for. Not really enough leverage on these small pliers to cut larger wires. Marked ??????ILL over Germany. I thought maybe Stahlwille, but I don't see any remnants of the E at the end.

The post was punched to prevent the slip joint action, but I was able to pry it past a few times and they are back to being adjustable.

 

[Eric Brown]

For stretching leather/ canvas, I believe.

I believe you are right. I found some similar ones, SCHUL-SONS USA Duck Bill Pliers, and they all say the same thing. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how the gripping surface on the outside works. Leverage perhaps?

 

[ararat]

I believe you are right. I found some similar ones, SCHUL-SONS USA Duck Bill Pliers, and they all say the same thing. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how the gripping surface on the outside works. Leverage perhaps?

Maybe to reduce slipping back as you pull the material around a frame. It's difficult to envision a use for it.

 

[d42jeep]

Recent end nipper find formerly covered with concrete. I have no idea what the initials stand for.
-Don

 

[RTM]

Maybe to reduce slipping back as you pull the material around a frame. It's difficult to envision a use for it.

I agree, that may be your fulcrum point.

 

[Eric Brown]

Slip joint side cutters. Not sure what they would be for. Not really enough leverage on these small pliers to cut larger wires. Marked ??????ILL over Germany. I thought maybe Stahlwille, but I don't see any remnants of the E at the end.

The post was punched to prevent the slip joint action, but I was able to pry it past a few times and they are back to being adjustable.

Probably Bruno Will, pre WWII.

 

[ararat]

Probably Bruno Will, pre WWII.

I believe you are correct. There are some on ebay. Thanks

Edit: looks like they made slip joint needle nose as well.

 

[Eric Brown]

I believe you are correct. There are some on ebay. Thanks

Edit: looks like they made slip joint needle nose as well.

Adding to Bruno Will info. From internet:

In 1844, ancestors of Harry P. Will founded a tool factory in Schmalkalden (Thuringia), considered to be the cradle of the German tool industry. In 1918, the Bruno Will gun and tool factory was built. Production was primarily directed to the North American markets, which dried up during the 1930's as the Nazis came to power. During the Second World War, the factory was damaged several times during air raids. At the end of the war, Harry Paul Will, the son of the company's founder, discovered that the area in which the factory was located was to be surrendered by the Americans to the Russians. The Americans lent him two army trucks for 24 hours to transport plant machinery and finished products to Mardorf and then to Neustadt outside of the Soviet zone, where the factory remains to this day. In 1948, the firm was officially registered as Harry P. Will Werkzeugfabrik GmbH and production of pliers resumed in an old horse stable. Once again, North America was the primary market where Mr. Will became known colloquially to his buyers as the "Plier King." In the early 1950's, Harry Will himself emigrated to Toronto, Ontario, leaving management of the German company to his partner, Richard Gies. In 1962 the firm was sold to Dr. Karl Fridrich Still, the head of a large coke and chemical plant construction empire. In 2006, the KNIPEX C. Gustav Putsch KG in Wuppertal acquired the Will Werkzeuge, saving it from bankruptcy. Three years before, KNIPEX had bought the Orbis Werkzeugfabrik, a tool company dating back to 1929 which was located in the Remscheid/Solingen/Wuppertal region, another German tool-making stronghold. In 2008, Orbis-Werk and the Will Werkzeuge were merged into OrbisWill GmbH, located in Ahaus, with production remaining in Neustadt.

So Bruno Will was pre-WWII and Harry P. Will was after WWII.

 

[Eric Brown]

Here are my Bruno Will pliers and cutters. The first three are marked with Bruno Will and DRGM. From 1891 to 1952, products manufactured in Germany might have been stamped with this D.R.G.M. designation, if the manufacturer opted not to pay the outrageous patent fees that Germany was charging, but instead chose to copyright their product’s intended way of use, or design. This copyright was initially for a period of 3 years, with an option to extend it for another 3. This gave the copyright owner a maximum of 6 years protection.

 

[Eric Brown]

Here are my Bruno Will pliers and cutters. The first three are marked with Bruno Will and DRGM. From 1891 to 1952, products manufactured in Germany might have been stamped with this D.R.G.M. designation, if the manufacturer opted not to pay the outrageous patent fees that Germany was charging, but instead chose to copyright their product’s intended way of use, or design. This copyright was initially for a period of 3 years, with an option to extend it for another 3. This gave the copyright owner a maximum of 6 years protection.

In my previous post it implies that if Bruno Will had a DRGM that they "invented" the design. However, I question if in fact they didn't "borrow" from American makers using designs where the patents had expired. My first example is one patented by William Bernard and made by Schollhorn. Patent 1236138 (Aug 7, 1917) for the slip joint design with a flush pivot. Utica also used this design on their #513 pliers and #1000 pliers, also #5000 with a slightly different cutter.

 

[Eric Brown]

The Bruno Will company probably also made pliers/cutters for other companies. Below are two Carlton-Ritter pliers that are direct matches to the Bruno's. Carlton-Ritter was an American distributor.

 

[Eric Brown]

Continuing with the flush pivot theme, I have a bunch of Oxwalls. (I can feel the eye rolls now). At first I thought maybe Bruno Will made these but things don't seem to fit the facts I have so far. Bruno Will's existed before WWI and his son Harry P. Will after WWII ended. All the Oxwall pliers I have were made in the British zone and the Will's in the US zone. The first pair have a DGRM and British zone, but that may have been for the bent jaws. The middle pair is the most common and were also produced after the US, British and French zones became West Germany. They were also made under other names including Steel Craft and Better Homes. (Really!) The far right pair are marked Oxwall and were also made after the war ended. They are similar to the Utica's with curved jaws.

 

[ararat]

Here are my Bruno Will pliers and cutters. The first three are marked with Bruno Will and DRGM. From 1891 to 1952, products manufactured in Germany might have been stamped with this D.R.G.M. designation, if the manufacturer opted not to pay the outrageous patent fees that Germany was charging, but instead chose to copyright their product’s intended way of use, or design. This copyright was initially for a period of 3 years, with an option to extend it for another 3. This gave the copyright owner a maximum of 6 years protection.

Bruno was a big fan of slip joints. Added it to everything. Lol

Thanks for all the info, I had never heard of them before.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I have a bunch of Oxwalls. (I can feel the eye rolls now).

Not mine!

I mentioned how Oxwall had some interesting postwar roots in Occupied Germany and Japan, paving the way I think for this whole mass-marketed category. I've posted this on the Oxwall thread (see Sticky Index) before, but to exemplify my point here, these are serious pliers, and I wish more came with a knuckled grip then and now.

 

[LesserSon]

I believe you are right. I found some similar ones, SCHUL-SONS USA Duck Bill Pliers, and they all say the same thing. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how the gripping surface on the outside works. Leverage perhaps?

Maybe to reduce slipping back as you pull the material around a frame. It's difficult to envision a use for it.

I agree, that may be your fulcrum point.

No one mentioned it, so I thought I’d state explicitly that the cross-hatch surface is on the same side (opposing member) as the enlongated handle that terminates with a curl around the pinky finger, supporting ararat’s idea they are for stretching a thin, flexible membrane over or around a frame or structure, under an appreciable degree of tension.
Maybe for webbing/upholstery? I can envision these used one-handed, while the other hand uses a tack hammer. I’d further assert that they would perform best when the bars of the frame were cylindical (dowels, rods, tubes), or at least had radiused corners.

EDIT - Yes, webbing pliers - though most patterns have much more flaring jaws for gripping wider webs.

 

[d42jeep]

I added to the too many Diamond plier collection at a recent estate sale. I briefly considered leaving them behind but then came to my senses.
-Don
As found.
Cleaned them up a little.
Diamond handle pattern.

 

[Eric Brown]

Something different. It's a shoe stretcher, for relieving around the toes of a shoe. This one is marked Lightning, Fulton ILL. and Pat Oct 12 97 which would be Charles Passmore's patent 591492. (Half assigned to Edwin Passmore). There are also two marks of what could either be a M or a W inside a diamond shape. I'm leaning towards a W as this matches the timeline for J.H. Williams and Diamond which was founded in 1882. In 1884 Williams & Diamond was reorganized as J.H. Williams & Company, and shortly afterwards the company moved to Brooklyn. Datamp.org indicates this was the first stretcher of this style in the classification. They also say this stretcher was manufactured by Lightning Shoe Stretcher Company. Perhaps Williams made the castings and Lightning assembled?

 

[d42jeep]

This particularly ugly pair came home with me yesterday. The evaporust may improve their appearance
-Don

 

[Unk]

Here's an unusual pair of (Linesman?) pliers. Diamond Edge is a Shapleigh Hardware house brand, so these were made by someone else. At first I thought they were welding pliers, due to the round prongs on the end. But then I thought they might be for bending copper wire into a circle to put on screw terminals. The hex wrench between the handles is also something I haven't seen before. Also has wire cutters in the jaws and on the outside of either jaw. Anyone have an idea who might have made these for Shapleigh?

 

[Eric Brown]

Here's an unusual pair of (Linesman?) pliers. Diamond Edge is a Shapleigh Hardware house brand, so these were made by someone else. At first I thought they were welding pliers, due to the round prongs on the end. But then I thought they might be for bending copper wire into a circle to put on screw terminals. The hex wrench between the handles is also something I haven't seen before. Also has wire cutters in the jaws and on the outside of either jaw. Anyone have an idea who might have made these for Shapleigh?

My first guess is a Utica. They made a lot of specials like this. What size is the hex?

 

[d42jeep]

This particularly ugly pair came home with me yesterday. The evaporust may improve their appearance
-Don

They DO look better but still not top quality pliers.
-Don

 

[Outlawmws]

Pliers from yesterday - Utica Herald, and unmarked the latter two are smooth jaw.

 

[Skyman]

Here's an unusual pair of (Linesman?) pliers. Diamond Edge is a Shapleigh Hardware house brand, so these were made by someone else. At first I thought they were welding pliers, due to the round prongs on the end. But then I thought they might be for bending copper wire into a circle to put on screw terminals. The hex wrench between the handles is also something I haven't seen before. Also has wire cutters in the jaws and on the outside of either jaw. Anyone have an idea who might have made these for Shapleigh?

I can't offer any info, but these are really cool. Possibly the hex opening is a crimper for a specific crimp? Nice find.

 

[LesserSon]

Received slipjoint pliers from @four.cycle (along w 2 unrelated pliers) and had time to compare them today.
The pivot bolt head is not identical in size (the smaller pair has the larger bolthead, or rather, rivet). The triangular stamp is, as noted before, not identical, though the radiused points are similar. The number of teeth in the jaws is different. I think the other characteristics are artifacts of the forging process, which would be similar for any slipjoints without patterned grips.
I don’t think it is impossible both pairs were manufactured by the same forge, but I don’t see any reason to think they were, either. Let’s hope for more examples or more records, or both.

They DO look better but still not top quality pliers.
-Don

I had a suspicion Don’s recent pliers were the same as the pair four.cycle sent me to compare with the McD pliers I already had. Look like twins. Maybe latter-day Harrold, but maybe not.

 

[d42jeep]

These were quite rusty but after cleanup the only marking I could find was Japan on the inside of one handle. I kind of like the handles.
These dykes aren’t really nicely finished and they don’t open very far.
-Don

 

[Eric Brown]

I just posted a bunch of German pliers under Oxwall Tool. Five posts?

Oxwall Tool Company LTD.

Oxwall and others from Germany with the finger grip. From left to right: Oxwall Tool Germany British zone, Rayco Germany British Zone, West Germany, Amalite West Germany, Better Homes Tools Co. Germany Drop Forged, Steelcraft MFG. Corp. Germany (probably imported by Spiegel Brothers New York)...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[four.cycle]

Lightning, Fulton ILL. and Pat Oct 12 97 which would be Charles Passmore's patent 591492.

Exactly. "Lightning Shoe Stretcher Company" was really the company's name, and they were marked "Fulton".
Took a while to unravel that one.
NO idea why I do not have a photo or other documentation, but it made me think of:
@Eric Brown - you need to bookmark this URL.

Here's an unusual pair of (Linesman?) pliers. Diamond Edge

Wow those are odd! Borderline "combination tool"!

They DO look better but still not top quality pliers.

They DO look exactly like a pair I had here... .

I had a suspicion Don’s recent pliers were the same as the pair four.cycle sent me to compare with the McD pliers I already had

until I sent them to LS a while back for eyes-on-side-by-side comparison.
and we still don't know if those are actually Harrold, right?

 

[LesserSon]

I don’t personally have a pair that definitively proves the “FORGED STEEL USA” triangle with radiused points is Harrold. The “FORGED STEEL USA H“ triangle with sharp points IS very similar, though, as is the oblong peen on the rivet/bolt. I think the pliers under scrutiny are Harrold, but I’d like to see a similar-bodied pair with the “H“ logo or Harrold name on them before I’d be 100% certain.

 

[Eric Brown]

A couple of Amalite pliers from West Germany. The pliers were probably made by the same company that made the ones for Oxwall.

 

[Eric Brown]

Some pliers and a cutter from Spiegel Brothers. Two are marked with Steelcraft which was a brand sold by Spiegel. The linesman pliers have an interesting marking. Spiegel Brothers, NW York, Germany.

 

[Eric Brown]

More German pliers. This post and the next two all share the same handle grip patter. Basically a flat diamond knurl inside a box with rounded ends. This first group of linesman pliers all have similar shapes. All of them have the same cast markings on the insides of the handles: Two boxes, Germany and Drop Forged. From L-R: Mansco 16?, Fulton (inside oval), Dunlap (inside oval), Santo No 107, Witherby 1517.

 

[Eric Brown]

More German pliers. This post and the next two all share the same handle grip patter. Basically a flat diamond knurl inside a box with rounded ends. This first group of linesman pliers all have similar shapes. All of them have the same cast markings on the insideds of the handles: Two boxes, Germany and Drop Forged. From L-R: Mansco 16?, Fulton (inside oval), Dunlap (inside oval), Santo No 107, Witherby 1517.

Group 2 Needle Nose and Cutters. These all have Drop-Forged and Germany inside two boxes. L-R: Mansco 35-6 1/2, Mansco 35-5 1/2, Fulton (inside oval), Fulton (inside oval), Amalite West Germany

 

[Eric Brown]

Group 2

Group 3 all have Drop-Forged W. Germany inside one box. L-R: 3191 (below pivot), 3191 (on handle by pivot), Dunlap 3192, GM 5915 W. Germany. Note: First 3191 has area on inside of handle by pivot ground for extra clearance and different handle profile. Guessing they made a forging change because of interference.

 

[Eric Brown]

Group 3 all have Drop-Forged W. Germany inside one box. L-R: 3191 (below pivot), 3191 (on handle by pivot), Dunlap 3192, GM 5915 W. Germany. Note: First 3191 has area on inside of handle by pivot ground for extra clearance and different handle profile. Guessing they made a forging change because of interference.

Comparing the Dunlaps from Group 1 and Group 3, they are different thicknesses. The first one is thinner than the third one with one being .447" thick and the other .503" thick (at the pivot).

 

[humber2]

Toro Made in USA

All stamped and folded construction.

When and what for are the questions.

TIA