Plomb tool picture thread - show your stuff!

[drivesitfar]

Twertsy: that ?? went over my head. are you saying that the catalog pages are already on this thread? or on your website?

or are you just CONFUSED this SUNDAY?

 

[twertsy]

Twertsy: that ?? went over my head. are you saying that the catalog pages are already on this thread? or on your website?

or are you just CONFUSED this SUNDAY?

They're all in my site.....

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[drivesitfar]

Twertsy: thanks!!

 

[d42jeep]

Here is a Plomb ad from 1944 that may be of interest.
-Don

 

[A E Numan]

Here is a Plomb ad from 1944 that may be of interest.
-Don

Thank's Don, That explains it! I was lucky to find a set in such nice, complete condition. I wonder how it managed to hide for so long.

 

[d42jeep]

I found an almost complete set of 1943 "War Finish" sockets that encouraged me to gather the rest of the pieces to make a set. By the time I finished getting the tools mostly together, I ended up with two sets. I am still looking for a 1943 War Finish marked 9/32" socket.
-Don

 

[Username already in use]

Don, great looking sets! I've got a partial wartime Plomb set that I've been trying to fill up on the cheap. Not having as much luck as you are though.

I snagged a few Plomb goodies over the weekend.
3/8" drive WF-23 speeder
WF DBE
5/16" combo
3/8" drive deep socket

 

[notlob]

Reduced smoke from the Sonoma fires allowed me to get started cleaning these up today.

Toolmobile will get compounded; top chest will likely get an exterior-only respray if I can locate the appropriate olive drab wrinkle paint.

 

[Hiatt1991]

Here's some Plomb wrenches I got with some other tools at a garage sale.

<a href='http://i.imgur.com/8uPBAq9' title=''><img src='http://i.imgur.com/8uPBAq9.jpg' alt='' title='Hosted by imgur.com' /></a>

<a href='http://i.imgur.com/MlX44Nv' title=''><img src='http://i.imgur.com/MlX44Nv.jpg' alt='' title='Hosted by imgur.com' /></a>

 

[Rileysan]

Reduced smoke from the Sonoma fires allowed me to get started cleaning these up today.

Beautiful!

Brian

 

[RagTopTA]

Seems like I remember a discussion going on on this thread or maybe the Gsale thread.. but I cant find it. whats the deal with the Pebble wrenches that really dont have the pebble on the background... ? I found a DBE yest at the flea that way/ Ill post pic of it after work .

 

[Private Lugnutz]

whats the deal with the Pebble wrenches that really dont have the pebble on the background... ? I found a DBE yest at the flea that way/ Ill post pic of it after work .

I think it's from wear, RagTop. I also have a few of with very little pebbling remaining. Although it could also be attributed to an imperfect die or set up or forge job during a run or two.

 

[Rileysan]

These two extensions came my way from a deal I made for a Craftsman gray & red 9 drawer roller. As part of the deal, the seller offered boxes of "old" tools to me, else he was taking them to Goodwill. Alright, if you insist ...

- Plomb WF-36 1/2" drive 24" extension
- Proto LA #5463 1/2" drive 12" extension

Brian

 

[RagTopTA]

Heres the few Plomb items I found at the flea Sunday. the Pebble wrench has no Pebbles... Anyone else see these around? Only one I have out of all my wrenches. there are two others with pebble backgrounds on both sides of the one I found without. Also, I found this obstruction wrench with only some lettering on it.. military I'm guessing.... seems like someone else found one like this a week or two ago but can't find it in the Gsale thread.

 

[Rileysan]

Also, I found this obstruction wrench with only some lettering on it.. military I'm guessing.... seems like someone else found one like this a week or two ago but can't find it in the Gsale thread.

We've been discussing the tools with Ordinance Supply Numbers in a couple of threads, actually. Those numbers will correspond to a specific use for that wrench by one or more branches of the military. Private Lugnutz can fill you in on the details, I'm sure.

Brian

 

[Private Lugnutz]

It's not an Ordnance Dept stock number, it's a Federal Stock Number, assigned by the Treasury Department, who administered the Federal Standard Stock Catalog, in use from the late 1930's to around 1953. All services and branches purchased from the catalog in the same way the GSA administers the 14-digit NSN system today, the first 11-digit iteration of which was put in place in 1953 to replace the Treasury Dept's FSN system.

Items in the system were divided into stock classes. The stock class for hand tools is 41. The letter is phonetic for wrench. All wrenches are 41-W. If you saw r_olson's 1/2-inch drive extension, it was a 41-B, because it's a bar, not a wrench. The next number (-642) is typically unique, meant to identify a particular tool. Because it also has a suffix (-25), it's very likely for the unique opening size. They probably couldn't assign it 41-W-643, because it was probably designating a different wrench.

Just to give you other examples, for context, 41-S-1076 is an 11-inch integral handle screwdriver. 41-H-1505 is a 10" 1/2-inh drive ratchet, because ratchets, like "breaker bars" (hinged handles), L-handles, etc, are all handles.

It was not a requirement and tools with the FSN forged-in or stamped on them are not common. Just the opposite. WWII collectors see them pop up, we all have a few, but the overwhelming majority of wartime tools collected do not have them, and no wartime manuals or references show tools with FSNs.

EDIT:

I've posted scans here before to support various topics as required on various threads, and here are a few of those for further context to my explanation above.

View media item 75306
I'll look the wrench up for you later if you're interested in knowing what sets it was issued to.

Is it marked on the flip side? Are you identifying it as Plomb by the shape and construction?

Also, if you're not intent on keeping it, I would be interested in it.

 

[RagTopTA]

I have found no other marks on it other than the main numbers showing in the picture. Thanks for he lesson that is some great information Lugz!! I would like to know what it came out of if and when you have time to mess with it. If you pm me where to send it, Ill send her on over to you. I think this is one that belongs in your collection. Also you have gone way out of your way to help people here. Always appreciate your input.

 

[d42jeep]

Lugz,
It doesn't appear in the July '45 ORD 6 so hopefully it will show up elsewhere.
-Don

 

[DadsTools]

Heres the few Plomb items I found at the flea Sunday. the Pebble wrench has no Pebbles... Anyone else see these around? Only one I have out of all my wrenches. there are two others with pebble backgrounds on both sides of the one I found without. Also, I found this obstruction wrench with only some lettering on it.. military I'm guessing.... seems like someone else found one like this a week or two ago but can't find it in the Gsale thread.

Not long ago I found a Plomb pebble-style wrench with no pebbles. The condition was good enough that it couldn't be attributed to wear. A close examination under magnification indicates the wrench was indeed made this way, and intentionally. Though not documented in other places like AA, I have little doubt that they are a legitimate variation. Because the overall design is otherwise virtually identical, they must have been made during the same time period as the pebble wrenches. They are apparently much more uncommon than the pebbled variety.

Since its manufacture seems intentional, I would suspect the non-pebbled variety may have been made at the very beginning or the very end of the pebble-style production unless it was used as an as-yet-undetermined distinguishing mark of some kind.

I may still have this oddball wrench somewhere and I'll try to dig it up for a photo. But I can indeed confirm that they do exist.

 

[RagTopTA]

Not long ago I found a Plomb pebble-style wrench with no pebbles. The condition was good enough that it couldn't be attributed to wear. A close examination under magnification indicates the wrench was indeed made this way, and intentionally. Though not documented in other places like AA, I have little doubt that they are a legitimate variation. Because the overall design is otherwise virtually identical, they must have been made during the same time period as the pebble wrenches. They are apparently much more uncommon than the pebbled variety.

Since its manufacture seems intentional, I would suspect the non-pebbled variety may have been made at the very beginning or the very end of the pebble-style production unless it was used as an as-yet-undetermined distinguishing mark of some kind.

I may still have this oddball wrench somewhere and I'll try to dig it up for a photo. But I can indeed confirm that they do exist.

thanks Id like it see it. I am going to go through my pebbles and see if there are any others I may have not noticed. This one is almost as smooth as the rest of the wrench... almost looks odd with out the pebbles.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I would like to know what it came out of if and when you have time to mess with it.

Lugz,
It doesn't appear in the July '45 ORD 6 so hopefully it will show up elsewhere.

I haven't been able to find that FSN anywhere. There is a 41-W-642-*** series of tools in the March 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4 (see the page scan in the thumbnail image below), all related to brake service. And, by a stroke of sheer coincidence, they were all supplied by Plomb!

That gave me pause. But none of the brake service wrenches with a 41-W-642-*** FSN are DOE obstruction wrenches. They are either standard DOEs or eccentrics. In fact, I can find no record of Plomb making heavy duty DOE obstruction wrenches in the style (near 90* angles pointing the same way) of this 41-W-264-25 wrench. Up until 1940, Plomb was making a small set of them with 45* and 90* angles they called "hog jaws." After that, the only wrenches I can find that they advertised as obstruction related, were the electricals, half moon-ish box ends, and a very small half-moonish box end (an example of which I just sent to someone in a trade, either notlob or Rileysan, can't remember which right now).

A number of mfgrs were making an obstruction wrench like this one, most notably Armstrong and Blue-Point.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

On the other recent topic, how do you guys think the pebbled field was made on pebbled Plomb tools?

I'll stick my neck out and say I have my doubts about it being part of a first or second die that was initially forging and then finishing a basic tool out of a hot billet in a forge press, which would require a field of very tiny dimples in the basic shape (DOE, DBE, or flare nut wrench, or socket drive handle) dies. I think the tool would be too hot to maintain such a slight impression, let alone hundreds of tiny slight impressions.

I think the pebble field would be part of the same stamping forge or press making the brand, model number, COO, and size markings, after the wrench was cooled, but before the wrench was fully cooled, either before or after it was bent and broached. In that scenario, it wouldn't take much deviation in a machine's jig or set-up to cause a field of heavy pebble, light pebble, or no pebble, without affecting the rest of the figures formed on the wrench from the same die in the same motion, which would be the ridged box outline that surrounded every pebble field and the brand, model, COO and size markings inside the outline. And note that no pebbled Plomb tool I am aware of has any markings anywhere on the tool outside that ridged outline.

In short, while I think a transition period is an interesting and logical theory, I am skeptical of the examples with little to no pebbling being by design. I still lean toward random. If you look at AA or TA or a good number of your own tools, of all types (DOE, DBE, and flare nut wrenches, socket drive handles), I bet you find a wide variance in the grain of the pebbling, from heavy to light to hardly recognizable, and, apparently, looking at Rag's example above, to none.

In fact, I invite you guys to check out the following examples:

AA, Plomb page 4, Fig. 208B (No. 240 Water Pump pliers) - very light pebbling
AA, Plomb page 4, Fig. 244 (No. 3712 3/8" Flare Nut Wrench) - very light to no pebbling

Then, go to Catalog 19-R REPRINT, and look at the figures. (Yes, I know these are illustrations, but they are rendered from photographs of actual tools.) See especially:

pg 28, cub handles - light to no pebbling
pg 32, 1/2-inch handles - light to no pebbling
pg 35, 3/4 ratchet - no pebbling
pg 38, 1-inch ratchet - no pebbling
pg 52, flare nut wrench - very strong pebbling

EDIT: Same figures appear on different pages in Catalog 19-R FOURTH PRINTING if you have easier access to that one.

But I'm not falling on my sword on this one. I could be way wrong, and I'm eager to hear what others think.

 

[DadsTools]

thanks Id like it see it. I am going to go through my pebbles and see if there are any others I may have not noticed. This one is almost as smooth as the rest of the wrench... almost looks odd with out the pebbles.

Yes, the one I found was like that. It wasn't a case of a filled forging die, the field was uniform and showed no evidence of the usual pebbling. Might be awhile before I can dig it out though....I'm in Vintage Christmas Items for Sale mode until probably mid-January.

 

[DadsTools]

On the other recent topic, how do you guys think the pebbled field was made on pebbled Plomb tools?

I'll stick my neck out and say I have my doubts about it being part of a first or second die that was initially forging and then finishing a basic tool out of a hot billet in a forge press, which would require a field of very tiny dimples in the basic shape (DOE, DBE, or flare nut wrench, or socket drive handle) dies. I think the tool would be too hot to maintain such a slight impression, let alone hundreds of tiny slight impressions.

I think the pebble field would be part of the same stamping forge or press making the brand, model number, COO, and size markings, after the wrench was cooled, but before the wrench was fully cooled, either before or after it was bent and broached. In that scenario, it wouldn't take much deviation in a machine's jig or set-up to cause a field of heavy pebble, light pebble, or no pebble, without affecting the rest of the figures formed on the wrench from the same die in the same motion, which would be the ridged box outline that surrounded every pebble field and the brand, model, COO and size markings inside the outline. And note that no pebbled Plomb tool I am aware of has any markings anywhere on the tool outside that ridged outline.

In short, while I think a transition period is an interesting and logical theory, I am skeptical of the examples with little to no pebbling being by design. I still lean toward random. If you look at AA or TA or a good number of your own tools, of all types (DOE, DBE, and flare nut wrenches, socket drive handles), I bet you find a wide variance in the grain of the pebbling, from heavy to light to hardly recognizable, and, apparently, looking at Rag's example above, to none.

In fact, I invite you guys to check out the following examples:

AA, Plomb page 4, Fig. 208B (No. 240 Water Pump pliers) - very light pebbling
AA, Plomb page 4, Fig. 244 (No. 3712 3/8" Flare Nut Wrench) - very light to no pebbling

Then, go to Catalog 19-R REPRINT, and look at the figures. (Yes, I know these are illustrations, but they are rendered from photographs of actual tools.) See especially:

pg 28, cub handles - light to no pebbling
pg 32, 1/2-inch handles - light to no pebbling
pg 35, 3/4 ratchet - no pebbling
pg 38, 1-inch ratchet - no pebbling
pg 52, flare nut wrench - very strong pebbling

EDIT: Same figures appear on different pages in Catalog 19-R FOURTH PRINTING if you have easier access to that one.

But I'm not falling on my sword on this one. I could be way wrong, and I'm eager to hear what others think.

I fully agree that the pebbling would have to be part of the complete forging die for the recess in the handle including all the figures. However, I'm not sure about variations in the placement or pressure/degree of striking depth could cause the effect of no evidence of pebbling whatsoever. If you imagine the die striking the steel, the first engraved figures that would be filled with metal will be the shallowest, followed sequentially by the deeper engravings. So even if the wrench was struck so lightly that the font figures would be only partially struck--say as extreme as only 1/2 their normal depth--the pebble engravings would already be filled with metal and will transfer the image to the wrench. This would be a function of mechanical physics (even fluid dynamics).

In my mind, the only way that this effect could occur is a variation in the die itself. While one may argue that the pebble engraving could have gotten filled in with residue (a well-known 'mint error' in coins), it would be very unlikely to obscure the entire field to such a uniform extent that no evidence of any pebbling in the entire field whatsoever, which is what the particular wrench I found looked like (not as if they were barely visible, but no evidence of them at all). It would also be highly improbable that such filler debris would not also get into the deeper letter engravings and affect their striking as well.

So to me, the answer lies in the dies themselves and how each was engraved. Variations within those wrenches showing pebbles indicates that the dies for each were engraved differently, perhaps by different engravers. I say 'intentional' because the dies striking no pebbles at all must have been engraved without pebbles. In this instance, it would indeed be 'by design'....BUT it could have also been at random as well. The conclusion would then be not one of a series variation, but of die variations within a single series. Still, it's hard to imagine how Plomb, having established a distinct design with pebbled field as the standard configuration for that series, might have had engravers who were obviously familiar with the intent of the overall design neglect to engrave them, and that at random, unless it was sanctioned to forego the extra engraving work in cases of emergencies where broken dies needed to be replaced quickly to meet a run deadline.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

So even if the wrench was struck so lightly that the font figures would be only partially struck--say as extreme as only 1/2 their normal depth--the pebble engravings would already be filled with metal and will transfer the image to the wrench.

You're right. I had to sketch it out in Sketchup to see it. It would have to be different dies, not machine or human deviations.

 

[d42jeep]

I finally got a chance to take some pictures of the Plomb puller I got last Thursday. It looks like it's seen plenty of use but still works fine. I think it's a keeper.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Looks great, Don. I'll keep an eye out for an empty box for it for you. Long shot, but you never know. I have the bad habit of picking up puller bodies and screws without legs thinking I'll run into the legs eventually. I have an OTC and a Herbrand.

 

[twertsy]

I finally got a chance to take some pictures of the Plomb puller I got last Thursday. It looks like it's seen plenty of use but still works fine. I think it's a keeper.
-Don

Looks great, Don. I'll keep an eye out for an empty box for it for you. Long shot, but you never know. I have the bad habit of picking up puller bodies and screws without legs thinking I'll run into the legs eventually. I have an OTC and a Herbrand.

I think I may have a puller box Don. I'll check next time I get to the shop.

 

[d42jeep]

Thanks,guys. It would be cool to have the box.
-Don

 

[oldmantaylor]

I fully agree that the pebbling would have to be part of the complete forging die for the recess in the handle including all the figures. However, I'm not sure about variations in the placement or pressure/degree of striking depth could cause the effect of no evidence of pebbling whatsoever. If you imagine the die striking the steel, the first engraved figures that would be filled with metal will be the shallowest, followed sequentially by the deeper engravings. So even if the wrench was struck so lightly that the font figures would be only partially struck--say as extreme as only 1/2 their normal depth--the pebble engravings would already be filled with metal and will transfer the image to the wrench. This would be a function of mechanical physics (even fluid dynamics).

In my mind, the only way that this effect could occur is a variation in the die itself. While one may argue that the pebble engraving could have gotten filled in with residue (a well-known 'mint error' in coins), it would be very unlikely to obscure the entire field to such a uniform extent that no evidence of any pebbling in the entire field whatsoever, which is what the particular wrench I found looked like (not as if they were barely visible, but no evidence of them at all). It would also be highly improbable that such filler debris would not also get into the deeper letter engravings and affect their striking as well.

So to me, the answer lies in the dies themselves and how each was engraved. Variations within those wrenches showing pebbles indicates that the dies for each were engraved differently, perhaps by different engravers. I say 'intentional' because the dies striking no pebbles at all must have been engraved without pebbles. In this instance, it would indeed be 'by design'....BUT it could have also been at random as well. The conclusion would then be not one of a series variation, but of die variations within a single series. Still, it's hard to imagine how Plomb, having established a distinct design with pebbled field as the standard configuration for that series, might have had engravers who were obviously familiar with the intent of the overall design neglect to engrave them, and that at random, unless it was sanctioned to forego the extra engraving work in cases of emergencies where broken dies needed to be replaced quickly to meet a run deadline.

I wish I would have known to ask my Dad these questions while he was alive. He worked At Plomb during the development of the Pebble design as a tool designer, and he was in charge of all product design. Before that he was a tool and die maker.

 

[RagTopTA]

You're right. I had to sketch it out in Sketchup to see it. It would have to be different dies, not a machine or human deviations.

I know this is a small wrench but it looks just like the one I found. No signs of visible Pebble background. I looked at all my small Pebbles they all have it plain as day. I looked at Every single Pebble I have and do not have another without the background. These are the pics from this Ebay add. Ones combo one DOE. so two different styles I have seen now with the missing pebbles.

Edit: Same seller has another one.. looks the same but maybe a bit rougher background. yet no pebbles.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-PL...662184?hash=item41d2cf19e8:g:cAEAAOSwF09ZcX1P

 

[Provincial]

The forging die is a reverse of the forged item. If you ground and polished off just the pebble surface of the die, you would make a wrench that looks like the ones in RagTopTA's last post. The recessed background would be slightly shallower and the raised lettering in the depressed area would not be quite as tall as measured from the bottom of the recess, but they would be the same height in relation to the raised rail of the wrench.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

My early pebble 3/4 ratchet doesn't really have pebbles to speak of. I think I posted these before, but where...?

If it were a stamping screwup, I don't see it always hitting both sides of the tool.
I have at least one wrench with smooth pebbles as well. Id thought of it as an early production thing.

Here is someone Else's rat just like mine.

 

[RagTopTA]

pretty interesting to see others. maybe we will find out for sure some day.

 

[Catfishdan]

I thought I'd be satisfied when I found the 1/4" drive, but now I think I need the big bertha too. Dang.

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[drivesitfar]

Catfish: with a name like that you probably live in the south? if you go in your GJ profile and put in your location somebody might have an extra BIG BERTHA or sell your theirs if you are local and shipping costs might keep it reasonable.

also while you are in your GJ profile maybe click on your Avatar and download a picture (CATFISH?) or whatever that will show up under your name like the Bison i picked made out of old tools and scraps. you can change your Avatar later if you choose to and i think i've had about 5 now including my cat that i put up for a couple months after she passed a couple years ago. it made me too sad to keep her up there so i changed to the Bison.

 

[Catfishdan]

Catfish: with a name like that you probably live in the south?.

Ha. California actually. The name is a long story.

 

[48548]

You guys make me want post some pebble picks... I am still looking for a 1/4 pebble breaker bar...

 

[r_olson_06]

I am as well and the longer 3/8 bar too.

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[Ole Slewfoot]

My name is Pebbleless pebbleby and you won't find a Pebble anywhere on me!

Not sure if the ignition wrenches got pebbles?

And a couple oddballs, the big one says 27 and USA, seems to be 5/8 and 9/16.
D8 date code??? on the little guy