Plomb tool picture thread - show your stuff!
- Thread starter GRX
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Ole Slewfoot
Well-known member
Yes.
IMO since the wrenches were regular production items, on the switch to the Proto name, they were simply sold as 'industrial finish'
The ratchets however were actually of different cheaper design. I beleive those were sold cheap to some highish volume contract buyers other than AAF, like bell sytems under the Proto name. When they had th tooling and the contract to sell the military cheaper ratchets, it may have been hard to upsell them on the newfangled pebble deign for either more money or a smaller margin. I'm actually a little surprised they didn't go forward with the WF style, its lighter and stronger.
IMO since the wrenches were regular production items, on the switch to the Proto name, they were simply sold as 'industrial finish'
The ratchets however were actually of different cheaper design. I beleive those were sold cheap to some highish volume contract buyers other than AAF, like bell sytems under the Proto name. When they had th tooling and the contract to sell the military cheaper ratchets, it may have been hard to upsell them on the newfangled pebble deign for either more money or a smaller margin. I'm actually a little surprised they didn't go forward with the WF style, its lighter and stronger.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Nope. I didn't see that post. And what's even weirder, I didn't see this post before, either. Just noticed it now when I went back to review the conversation.
Thanks for pointing it out. I didn't know the "PROTO WF" phenomenon reached beyond the WF-38 and WF-21 ratchets. I have never seen it on any other tools, every time the topic has come up before, those two ratchets are the common culprits, and I don't recall others mentioning other tools. I didn't know it was common knowledge. Unless I am missing it, the ratchets are the only examples on the Tools Archive. (You should probably upload yours.)
Your extension helps form a wider picture, for sure.
I'd be more convinced the PROTO WF tools were US Air Force contract production if we had more and numerous examples of all the WF tools, as is the case with Plomb WF tools. But it is interesting. Enough to want to spend some time trying to find 1950 US Air Force contracts. Until then, I'm still stuck on the idea of the model numbers being "de-militarized" so to speak by Proto. And whatever the reason, I still think they're 1949 or later.
Thanks. No problem.
RagTopTA
Well-known member
RubiconJK
Well-known member
Cool. Never seen one like this.
RagTopTA
Well-known member
Only one I have seen as well. Bought it from a tool vendor I know that makes all the big shows and fleas around this area. I made friends with him and he saves me stuff. Pretty sweet deal!
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Plombob has one with the exact same face plate, but a Firestone frame/handle. If you click on the link I provided earlier in this conversation (post #3314), and go to post #41 in that thread, you can see photos. EDIT: Same ratchet can be seen at TA, as well as another WF-21 with a Bell System crank handle, here.
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four.cycle
Well-known member
just an fyi. thought it might be of interest:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/312073527732
https://www.ebay.com/itm/312073527732
Rileysan
Well-known member
Thank you four.cycle for reminding me to do the obvious - check eBay!
There are currently 6 proto WF items (that were identified as such) listed on eBay. Five are ratchets and one is a 3/8" drive, 3" extension. Whatever the reason for their existence, they're not rare.
Brian
There are currently 6 proto WF items (that were identified as such) listed on eBay. Five are ratchets and one is a 3/8" drive, 3" extension. Whatever the reason for their existence, they're not rare.
Brian
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Thanks for the update, Brian. I've made a note to start a Proto WF list on the TA. (The TA will soon be subsuming Plombob's old Plomb site, which included a Plomb WF list, which also needs to be updated - we've seen some recent finds. So the timing to extend it to Proto WF is good.) So far, with your report included, the Proto WF seems to include 3/8- and 1/2-inch drive tools (i.e., no DOE, DBE, ignition or line wrenches). Actually, that's reckless of me. To be more accurate, it seems to include 3/8- and 1/2-inch ratchets and extensions. It'll be interesting to see if anything else turns up, i.e., sockets and other handles.
RubiconJK
Well-known member
Plombob's old site has a wealth of information. Glad Twertsy is still planning to pick this up on TA. Guess I should check some of my old Proto stuff for any WF numbering.
Rileysan
Well-known member
Agreed!
Lugz, I'm going to waste some time this weekend looking through eBay listings for possible Proto WF sockets. I have a feeling that if they exist, they are less likely to be identified by part number and/or sold individually since it takes too much time and effort to for the average seller to write in the description. That is, most listings only tell sizes and little else.
Brian
Cooter Brown
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- Feb 6, 2017
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Here's a bit of Plomb from the family tool legacy.
My father bought the ratchet some time after he got back from the Pacific, I think from the old Sears store on Ponce de Leon in Atlanta. No chrome on this one.
He also bought an Army surplus tool box there.
The hinge handle almost certainly came from my grandfather--he started working for Western Electric in the 20s and there is an "R" number electric pen engraved on the tool--you can see it in the closeup. WE property numbers started with "R" and they and the Bell System were big users of Plomb and Proto. For a time before the war Granddad was assigned to Bell Labs--at that time WE and Bell were closely aligned. During the war he worked in California on what was then top secret stuff--radar improvement. The hinge handle has a satin chrome finish.
I'm not sure where the sockets came from, likely WE. The only one with a date code is the 9/16"--it has a code of "N" next to the model number. Both it and the 1/2" appear to have been thinned down a bit--both Bell and WE had a lot of special tooling requirements.
After Dad got back from the war, he followed Granddad to WE. He worked there for five years and then went to Bell, where he worked until '84 when the Bell System was spit up.
For a time during the depression Granddad was laid off from WE. During that period he opened a garage. I have many, many hand tools from him, all of excellent quality. Both Granddad and Dad instilled a love of tools and working with them and both believed firmly in buying only the best.
I hope the pictures work.
My father bought the ratchet some time after he got back from the Pacific, I think from the old Sears store on Ponce de Leon in Atlanta. No chrome on this one.
He also bought an Army surplus tool box there.
The hinge handle almost certainly came from my grandfather--he started working for Western Electric in the 20s and there is an "R" number electric pen engraved on the tool--you can see it in the closeup. WE property numbers started with "R" and they and the Bell System were big users of Plomb and Proto. For a time before the war Granddad was assigned to Bell Labs--at that time WE and Bell were closely aligned. During the war he worked in California on what was then top secret stuff--radar improvement. The hinge handle has a satin chrome finish.
I'm not sure where the sockets came from, likely WE. The only one with a date code is the 9/16"--it has a code of "N" next to the model number. Both it and the 1/2" appear to have been thinned down a bit--both Bell and WE had a lot of special tooling requirements.
After Dad got back from the war, he followed Granddad to WE. He worked there for five years and then went to Bell, where he worked until '84 when the Bell System was spit up.
For a time during the depression Granddad was laid off from WE. During that period he opened a garage. I have many, many hand tools from him, all of excellent quality. Both Granddad and Dad instilled a love of tools and working with them and both believed firmly in buying only the best.
I hope the pictures work.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
RubiconJK: How is your PROTO WF-38 with the Figure-8 face plate marked? I see that it's stamped in the handle panel, not forged-in, but I can't make out the marking. Give me the verbatim, please.
Curiosity got the better of me and I checked out the PROTO WF items currently on eBay.
There are four (4) PROTO WF-38's, two different variants.
One (1) of them is a duplicate of the example Rubicon posted above, with nothing on the face plates, 'PROTO' is forged-in on one side of the paddle handle, and 'MADE IN WF-38 U.S.A.' forged-in on the flip side of the paddle handle. That 'MADE IN WF-38 U.S.A.' is a spittin' image of the wartime Plomb marking. My theory, and lgradwell and others have agreed with it in the past, is that this variant re-uses a wartime die. They made a new die for the 'PROTO side.
Note: Seeing a 'MADE IN U.S.A.' on the same side (same die!) as a 'PROTO' marking would be a major apoplectic challenge to the 1949 date. I don't think we've seen anything like that. Could be wrong.
The other three (3) are duplicates of each other. This variant has 'PROTO' and 'WF-38 US' stamped into the top and bottom of the face place, the same 'MADE IN WF-38 U.S.A.' forged-in to the paddle handle, and it's blank on the other side. These, too, have re-used the Plomb wartime die, not bother to use a different forge die for the flip side, dealing with the branding strictly on the face plate.
The other ratchet is a PROTO WF-21 with a crank knob on a Bell System Sleeve Roller. This is the variant with nothing on the face plate, 'MFD PROTO LOS ANGELES U.S.A.' forged-in on the paddle handle, and 'PROTO WF-21' forged-in on the flip side. (Unlike Rag's Speedmaster handle above, and Plombob's Firestone handle, which are only branded on the face plate: stamped 'PROTO' and 'WF-21 US'.)
Probably need two tables. One just a straight list to record the PROTO WF- numbers seen. Another to record the variants. Analysis of those may be the key to dating them.
Agreed. Good idea.
Curiosity got the better of me and I checked out the PROTO WF items currently on eBay.
There are four (4) PROTO WF-38's, two different variants.
One (1) of them is a duplicate of the example Rubicon posted above, with nothing on the face plates, 'PROTO' is forged-in on one side of the paddle handle, and 'MADE IN WF-38 U.S.A.' forged-in on the flip side of the paddle handle. That 'MADE IN WF-38 U.S.A.' is a spittin' image of the wartime Plomb marking. My theory, and lgradwell and others have agreed with it in the past, is that this variant re-uses a wartime die. They made a new die for the 'PROTO side.
Note: Seeing a 'MADE IN U.S.A.' on the same side (same die!) as a 'PROTO' marking would be a major apoplectic challenge to the 1949 date. I don't think we've seen anything like that. Could be wrong.
The other three (3) are duplicates of each other. This variant has 'PROTO' and 'WF-38 US' stamped into the top and bottom of the face place, the same 'MADE IN WF-38 U.S.A.' forged-in to the paddle handle, and it's blank on the other side. These, too, have re-used the Plomb wartime die, not bother to use a different forge die for the flip side, dealing with the branding strictly on the face plate.
The other ratchet is a PROTO WF-21 with a crank knob on a Bell System Sleeve Roller. This is the variant with nothing on the face plate, 'MFD PROTO LOS ANGELES U.S.A.' forged-in on the paddle handle, and 'PROTO WF-21' forged-in on the flip side. (Unlike Rag's Speedmaster handle above, and Plombob's Firestone handle, which are only branded on the face plate: stamped 'PROTO' and 'WF-21 US'.)
Probably need two tables. One just a straight list to record the PROTO WF- numbers seen. Another to record the variants. Analysis of those may be the key to dating them.
RubiconJK
Well-known member
Lugz,
The only PROTO WF-38 in my earlier pics was the one where you can see the forged markings. The ratchet you asked about with the figure 8 head is truly a Plomb WF-38. The writing you see on the face plate is just a PO mark. I probably did a bad job of describing each ratchet by position in my original post. Here are some closer pics of the figure 8 ratchet you asked about in case it helps. I'll follow this post with some pics of my Plomb WF-21 Bell System crimping tool.
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RubiconJK
Well-known member
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Sorry, I just misread.
The Proto version I have seen (again, one on eBay now...) is the same, but 'PROTO' where 'PLVMB' is. Like the WF-38, it would've been easy to reuse the 'MADE IN WF-21 U.S.A.' side die.
RubiconJK
Well-known member
Agreed.
Ole Slewfoot
Well-known member
twertsy
Well-known member
I have a couple of those. I'll check the dates when I get back to town.lil late, heres the handle of my dual marked pipe wrench, and a 9.7 Plomb one.
Letters are raised on the Plomb, recessed on the dual, except the size marking.
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d42jeep
Well-known member
Smokeshow69
Well-known member
Well now don't you **** ! I have never found that many pieces in one shot aside from the swap meet! Nice job on the proto empire finds [emoji16]
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Ajkru944
Member
Nice score!
RagTopTA
Well-known member
Love finding a Plomb honey hole : ) Nice score!
I found these two today at the swap meet. An older Plomb LA Tappet, and a WF82
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Catfishdan
Well-known member
I added a few at the flea market today. Two nice pebbles and a 5/16 war finish.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Thanks, Slew. Could the "recessed" dual 'PROTO MFD PLVMB' branding be the result of a stamping? Or does it look like it was forged-in like that at the same time as the raised size marking and date code was forged-in? You see where I am going with this, right? With the caveat that I am not falling on my sword on this point, stamping the dual branding on static jaws and handles made earlier in the year might could explain why there's a dual PROTO-PLVMB branding on a mid 1948 tool. Understand, I have no stake either way. But your pipe wrench represents a potential challenge to what most of* the literature (the researched historical record...) seems to say about first use of PROTO. Just trying to suss it out.
* except for your Oct '48 Popular Science
edit: Note that Plomb Tool Co Catalog #19-R FOURTH PRINTING - no references to Proto name - has a Price List (P-4805) dated March 1948, and that Plomb Tool Co Catalog #4820 - including references to Proto - has a 1948 copyright. It's possible that it could be as late as December - when the other sources indicate the switch occurred, but seems improbable given the other challenges. I am officially back to uncertain.
And the markings too, please.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Beautiful specimens, notlob. Interesting, too, for showing another mystery.
Utica made Plomb's water pump pliers up until 1947, and examples clearly match the water pump pliers shown in catalogs published prior to 1947 (ending with #19-R REPRINT).
J.P. Danielson made Plomb's water pump pliers after 1947, and examples clearly match the water pump pliers shown in catalogs published after 1947 (starting with #19-R FOURTH PRINTING). The water pump pliers at the top are a good example.
I've seen examples of the kind shown at the bottom before, and I can't figure out who the OEM is. It doesn't match the shape or construction of the Utica or J.P. Danielson water pump pliers seen in catalogs or examples.
d42jeep
Well-known member
four.cycle
Well-known member
d42jeep
Well-known member
Mooreag47
Well-known member
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Looks like a female ratchet push-pull drive plug to me. One detent ball for the ratchet opening, the other for the socket.
RubiconJK
Well-known member
Pre 1934 (round O) male insert plug for female drive ratchet. Hard to find.
d42jeep
Well-known member
What Lugz said and it might be from 1928.
-Don
-Don
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
If you're referring to the "8", Don, that's actually the part number: DA8. All the part numbers for the early 1/2-inch drive stuff were phonetic. DE5 was a 5-inch Extension. DE10 the 10-inch extension. DR8 was the ratchet. DT the T handle. DU the uni joint. And so forth. That adaptor could be much earlier than 1928.
EDIT: The adaptor changed to 5452 in the early 1930's when all the 1/2-inch drive stuff went to the 54XX series model numbers. And then it was eventually phased out in favor of ratchets with "attached" (as they put it!
) drive plugs.
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d42jeep
Well-known member
Good information! Thanks.
-Don
-Don
Mooreag47
Well-known member
Thanks for the info thought about putting on fleabay but i think ill keep it in the event i find the rat it goes with