Pole Barn Home/Shop

[DCarr2]

ya new here... I might have made an acct a year ago or something I dunno, cant remember.

I currently have a 40x50 cinder block bouilding to house my small business and stuff.

However I sold my home and am moving in the next 3-4 months...

I have 2 options.

First buy a house with a little bit of land build a new shop - runs about $20-25 a sq ft with the floor, turn key, finished interior.

second option, which I think would be cheaper, have to check local building depts ect first tho.

is buying straight land with utilities at the street, and building a larger pole barn, with a 1,000 sq ft living space on one end, and shop in the rest...

I live in buffalo ny so theres a freeze thaw cycle here... not sure what the codes are for that...

if I buy a home im looking at $150,000 plus $50 for the new barn...

if I buy property, I can put up a killer barn/house combo for around 120K... seems cheaper i dunno, plus everything will be 'new' so shouldnt have any major problems for atleast 10 years.

thoughts?

 

[UpstateNY]

.................. "and building a larger pole barn, with a 1,000 sq ft living space on one end, and shop in the rest".

Your re-sale will **** the big one. There will be no / very few buyers when you go to sell it and no appreciation whilst you own it. Very bad idea IMO.

 

[Voi]

This is a tough subject to search but there are many discussions. Barndominium and Hangar Home are two terms to describe this.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=barndominium+site:+garagejournal.com+site:www.garagejournal.com

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=hangar+home+site:+garagejournal.com+site:www.garagejournal.com

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4784188

In my area if you have one of these and it's grand-fathered in it adds value to a property. Hard to build under new ordinance in my county.

 

[DCarr2]

.................. "and building a larger pole barn, with a 1,000 sq ft living space on one end, and shop in the rest".

Your re-sale will **** the big one. There will be no / very few buyers when you go to sell it and no appreciation whilst you own it. Very bad idea IMO.

I have no intentions of reselling the property.

 

[matt_i]

The nice thing about having a home is there are probably utilities established, or you have a pretty clear idea about whats already there...in some cases can tap right into them. When developing bare land you're going to be paying to bring them in. Realizing that the utilities* offset some of the costs as they are going to be making more money down the road, but its not free.

Biggest hurdle is building dept and zoning. Around here the zoning is done at the township level, the building dept does inspections but those are just to verify compliance with codes.

Depending on what you intend to do in the shop, it would **** to epoxy prime something and have to deal with those fumes the rest of the day, or conversely get on a stick welding or torch cutting session and fill the place up with smoke...which is also your house...

* also thinking of well and septic as utilities.

Also, just to add, what about buying the house, building your barndominium (love the term) and then rent out the house...solves the issue of having no place to live in the meantime.

 

[UpstateNY]

I have no intentions of reselling the property.

But your heirs might.

 

[Jetfixr320]

But your heirs might.

I would say that is their problem and not his.

 

[DCarr2]

I would say that is their problem and not his.

Agreed!

I have taken some steps to further research this project.... I spoke with a customer of mine who is on the planning board of a local township and has directed me torwards the right people to speak with. Thats happening tomorrow.

He says as long as the pre-existing zoning is correct on said parcel I should be good to go.

I am also meeting with a Master Carpenter friend of mine to give me a ball park idea as to what the 'home' portion of this will cost initially, as I am on a budget,

I am currently looking at moving forward with a 50x70x16.

I am also prepared to skimp? if thats the word on some finishes to keep costs down, and have ALOT of materials on hand which will help as well (like cases of 20amp GFIs, 8-14ga wire spools ect...

For instance going with linoleum and cheaper cabinets/counters in the kitchens and bathroom...

after all, I am paying for all of this out of pocket and when its done, outside of property taxes I wont owe anyone a dime. and to me thats most important.

Whats also important to me is have minimnal stairs, so while I am still searching for a house I want/need a ranch. I have bad knees, ect... stairs ****. so this new plan, which looks promising will work as at most I will have a 1 step to go up into the house portion.

How so? I am thinking of laying 2x8's for the floor in the house area, this provides 2 major benefits:

1) a wood/carpet over wood is alot warmer in February than a concrete floor... especially initially when the floor heat wont be hooked up (pipes laid, and capped)
2) it will allow me to run utilities under the floor and allow me to put in access panels to reach/run utilities with relative ease.

 

[tomroblee]

My initial reaction is that you are dreaming when you talk about costs. If you do a lot of the work yourself, it may be possible to put up the building you want for $120,000---but the costs of the land, permits, inspections, running utilities to you building, site work, driveways, etc. will increase your cost greatly.

If you do pursue you idea, I would think that it would make more sense to have a lower roof for you living area. (Do you really want 16' ceilings in the living area?) If you go this route, you would have more flexibility in designing the living area. It's hard to find any stock floor plans for what you are trying to do, but I've seen similar concepts where an RV owner wanted a big RV garage with a smaller "apartment" attached. There is an example picture in the attached link:

http://arizonarvhomes.com/images/1bed-hero.png

When you think about a building like you are proposing, the first impulse is to say that you will use one end (in your case, 50' x 20' or 25'?) as the living area. It's difficult to design a comfortable floor plan with this area---and still have windows in every room for light and ventilation. I faced this problem when I had a home build on some rural property about ten years ago. I wanted a large garage for storage with a one bedroom apartment attached. My solution was to build the living area one room deep in a "L" shape. This meant that the garage portion wasn't a rectangle, but that didn't hurt the functionality of it for my purposes.

You say that you are willing to skimp on some items. Make sure that your skimping makes sense. Don't skimp on insulation or you will pay for it as long as you use the building. It's cheaper to do something right the first time rather than to do it twice. Rather than living with cheap kitchen cabinets for the rest of my life, I would live with Craigslist free items until I could afford what I liked.

When you talk about using 2" x 8" for the floor in the living area, are you talking about having a crawl space or just using the wood as sleepers over a concrete floor? If you have a crawl space, you will likely have more than one step. If you are using the 2 x 8's as sleepers, you could have a stepped down concrete floor for the living area. (the sleepers would raise the floor of the living area to the height of the shop floor and avoid the step entirely.)

When you design your floor plan, try and place the water heater and the various plumbing fixtures as close together as possible. With a building on a slab, it's a real pain to wait for the water to warm up in a bathroom that is on the opposite end of the building from the water heater---especially in the winter.

 

[DCarr2]

My initial reaction is that you are dreaming when you talk about costs. If you do a lot of the work yourself, it may be possible to put up the building you want for $120,000---but the costs of the land, permits, inspections, running utilities to you building, site work, driveways, etc. will increase your cost greatly.

Ok so I do agree with you to some degree. this whole project will probably cost closer to 150-175... but everything will be new, and the home shop will share utilities - tax write off plus be largely maintnence free.

If you do pursue you idea, I would think that it would make more sense to have a lower roof for you living area. (Do you really want 16' ceilings in the living area?) If you go this route, you would have more flexibility in designing the living area. It's hard to find any stock floor plans for what you are trying to do, but I've seen similar concepts where an RV owner wanted a big RV garage with a smaller "apartment" attached. There is an example picture in the attached link:

http://arizonarvhomes.com/images/1bed-hero.png

I thought about this, however I think, as of right now all 'in house' is the way to go. Plus it gives me the flexibility, to add a second floor to my home in the fute should the need arise/as my budget allows

When you think about a building like you are proposing, the first impulse is to say that you will use one end (in your case, 50' x 20' or 25'?) as the living area. It's difficult to design a comfortable floor plan with this area---and still have windows in every room for light and ventilation. I faced this problem when I had a home build on some rural property about ten years ago. I wanted a large garage for storage with a one bedroom apartment attached. My solution was to build the living area one room deep in a "L" shape. This meant that the garage portion wasn't a rectangle, but that didn't hurt the functionality of it for my purposes.

I am actually addressing this issue right now! and have modified my floor plan ect to compensate...

You say that you are willing to skimp on some items. Make sure that your skimping makes sense. Don't skimp on insulation or you will pay for it as long as you use the building. It's cheaper to do something right the first time rather than to do it twice. Rather than living with cheap kitchen cabinets for the rest of my life, I would live with Craigslist free items until I could afford what I liked.

I agree with this... when I say skimp, I mean go cheap to start, and upgrade as I go along - more on this later.

When you talk about using 2" x 8" for the floor in the living area, are you talking about having a crawl space or just using the wood as sleepers over a concrete floor? If you have a crawl space, you will likely have more than one step. If you are using the 2 x 8's as sleepers, you could have a stepped down concrete floor for the living area. (the sleepers would raise the floor of the living area to the height of the shop floor and avoid the step entirely.)

I have pretty much scrapped that idea, primarily due to cost. for what I would spend to make a platform will help offset the cost for the boiler to run everything... so we are going to scratch that at this point.

When you design your floor plan, try and place the water heater and the various plumbing fixtures as close together as possible. With a building on a slab, it's a real pain to wait for the water to warm up in a bathroom that is on the opposite end of the building from the water heater---especially in the winter.

Building on a slab with slab heat... the floor heat thing seems to be the way to go hands down..

my 'plan' is to do it this way, starting with gravel:
in order - or layers,

1) heavy plastic
2)1" rigdig foam
3) 4-6" concrete on top...

right now nothing is set in stone. I have never built a home before. nor have I built a shop before.

at first I thought the shop would be a huge undertaking... but mysituation seems that now I am building a home too.

ok, so progress update:

The township I am 90% likely building in, a barndominium is a GO

it will pass, shouldnt have a problem..

My previous quotes was $40K for a 50x70x18 built before concrete with minimal site work.

with 4" pad, add $20K
However my work truck weighs in at around 14K lbs during the summer... and depending on the job and will be parked indoors. not sure if 4" is adequate... was thinking 6" for the main parking area inside the PB.

the site I am looking... the acreage is cheap but a 100 yr flood plane, so i am looking at a pond - i want a pond anyway, and ill need the fill... I am currently researching those costs as of right now.

land clearing... I talked to one guy that is either on crack or thinks I am an idiot and quouted $100K for pond, clear 1-2 acres of heavy brush - not trees, brush...

for that kind of money Ill rent 3 bulldozers for a week with a cpl friends lol

thats where I am right now.

everything is happening in the next 90-120 days. I will keep you guys posted, feedback positive or negative is appreciated!

 

[4AudiQ]

Here are 4 threads that speak to your situation:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=257468


http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226535


http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230160


http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247844

 

[Voi]

I am thinking of laying 2x8's for the floor in the house area, this provides 2 major benefits:

1) a wood/carpet over wood is alot warmer in February than a concrete floor... especially initially when the floor heat wont be hooked up (pipes laid, and capped)

2) it will allow me to run utilities under the floor and allow me to put in access panels to reach/run utilities with relative ease.

Somewhere out on the vast world wide web there are some pictures of a pole barn house that left the concrete floors and polished/stained them. It looked really nice based on the pictures.

Getting utilities figured out would be important but floor heat would solve the cold floor problem and this would fit well with keeping costs down.

 

[T_R]

If you want to do this, I strongly suggest buying property that is not zoned. Then you can just do whatever you want with it rather than asking permission.

 

[AirJunky]

Build it! There are several threads here where its been done. Resale is effected to some degree (if you care) but only because its hard to get comps. But they are out there.

 

[tomroblee]

In the absence of government regulations, almost anything is possible if you have (and are willing to spend) enough money.

Figures lie, and liars figure.

You can get the answer you want if you phrase the question carefully and don't worry about the qualifications of the person to whom the question is addressed.

It sounds like you are making progress, and are starting to firm up your plans. I'm not a builder, and don't know much about the area where you are building. I am a fat old retired geezer who spent his working life as an internal auditor and who has had a rural home/garage and pole barn built in the past decade.

Where I built was a poor rural county in SW Indiana that has no zoning or building restrictions. You can do about anything you want---at your own risk. Building codes (where they exist) restrict what you can do or how you do it, but also keep you from doing dumb and/or dangerous things. My only permit requirement was from the board of health for a septic system.

From you posts I can't tell whether you have asked the right questions to the right people----or whether you provided adequate information when you asked the questions.

You say that you can buy acreage cheap, but that it is in a flood plain. Do you know whether building in the flood plain is allowed? If so, what are the specific requirements?

You say that you have a quote for a 50' x 70' x18' building for $40,000. Do you know the specifications of this building? (Are the specs for a residential building, a commercial building, or an agricultural building? Most building codes will allow you to build a rather flimsy building for storing hay. If the building collapses, not much harm is done. If the building is for human occupation, the specs and cost will be much higher because someone could die if the building collapses.) Most rough estimates for pole barns that I have seen are based on placing the building on good soil with minimal site work. Do you have any idea of how the price might change if the building will be built on filled land in a flood plain?

You say that a barndominium is allowed in the township where the cheap land in the floodplain is located. When you got your positive answer, did you just ask the zoning folks whether the zoning rules allow a barndominium, or did you ask the building department how/whether you could put living quarters into a $40,000 pole barn built in a flood plain?

Will you have a well and septic or city water and sewers? Do you have a good idea of the costs involved for your water and sewer? (Installing a septic system in a flood plain may be prohibited or very expensive.) Are natural gas and electric lines close to your proposed property? Do you have any idea of the cost involved for getting them to your building site?

If I understand you correctly, you are now considering a 16' tall building with a single story living area build into one end---with the option to add a second floor at some later date. Building codes will require a firewall between the living area and garage area (you talked about a shop, but later mentioned parking a truck inside.) This is generally just 5/8" drywall on the wall between the garage and living area. I'm not sure how you would handle the "roof" to your living area. I'm guessing that it would be more cost effective to just build the common wall up to the bottom of the trusses (this assumes that you will have a flat ceiling in your garage/shop area.)

If you are considering adding a second floor at a later date, you need to plan for the future. One particular item is the stairway. If you have bad knees (like me), you won't want a steep stairway---and a low pitch stairway takes up a lot of room.) The cost of a stairway isn't much, but it does have a major impact on your floor plan. You also have to consider that the framing for the one story living area may have to be different if it is to support a second floor at some later date. The ceiling joists can be rather small if their only function is to hold up a ceiling. They will have to be a lot more stout if they will support the floor of a second story. If you only have 16' side walls on your building, you won't be able to have two floors with 8' ceilings plus the floor joists for the second floor. A single story living area built into an existing barn doesn't weigh much and shouldn't require much consideration on how the barn is built or the slab is designed. If the living area will be two story, the slab may need to be reinforced under any load bearing walls, posts may have to be oversized if they will be supporting the second floor, etc.

You need to consider your eventual plans when you specify the truss spacing on your building. Truss spacing of 8' is fairly common for unfinished buildings. If you are wanting to put in ceilings, 4' spacing or 2' spacing makes it much easier. There shouldn't be much cost difference between 4' spacing and 8' spacing. 4' spacing will require more trusses, but they can be made with smaller dimension lumber. Going to 2' spacing will increase the cost by a greater amount, but it may be worth it over the living area.

If you are considering adding a second floor to your living area at some future time, you need to consider how much of the work should be done during the first phase. At a minimum, you should probably frame any window openings, and rough in water, drain, and electric lines. It won't cost much to do now, and will avoid tearing out walls at a later date.

 

[DCarr2]

Ok so i met with a local builder today who is going to write me up a estimate for my building he said 40x80 is cheaper than 50x70

he also said that with floor heat i wont need secondary heating

i explained that in the future i may want to add a second bedroom/make the space above my first floor usable for the house, so he suggested scissor trusses for that area and to plan for a usable second floor...

but for now, that area would only be for storage

also going with metal ceiling in the shop area... and 6" concrete where my truck would be parked..4" everywhere else

Ill keep you guys posted.

 

[LennyTheLizard]

Ok so i met with a local builder today who is going to write me up a estimate for my building he said 40x80 is cheaper than 50x70

Cheaper per sq. ft. or cheaper because it's less square feet?

I guess you should follow what is recommended in your own area, but one piece of advice my builder gave was: it's best to build WXL that are divisible by 4 and 3. So in other words: 42 X 84, because lumber is usually 16 or 24" centers and Steel is 3' wide. It probably only really saves a few cuts on the last piece of each wall, but something to think about.

 

[reader2580]

The city I live in allows 3000 square foot garages now. The size was "only" 2,000 square feet until this year. It may not seem like much, but most other cities around have limits of 750 to 1000 square feet.

I eventually plan to build a large garage. My garage will have 16 foot sidewalls to allow for a 14 foot garage door. I've thought about building an apartment/house over half the garage so that part of the garage/shop would only be 8 feet tall. I would want to allow for an elevator for the future, but no idea how much an elevator costs. If I placed the house part on the ground level I'm not sure I save any money over a traditional house/garage. The city I am in doesn't allow pole barn metal siding.

Ideally I would want to build this on one acre of my land and split that acre acre off and sell the existing house.

 

[DCarr2]

Got my quote:

40 X 80 X 16 Post Framed
-50yr, 27gauge, G#90 painted steel siding, any color choice
-50yr, 27 gauge, G#90 painted steel roofing, any color choice
-3 – 3/0 insulated steel entry door, with lockset
-6 – 3/0 X 4/0 single hung windows
-vented ridge cap
-complete trim package
3 Ply Laminate Posts – pressure-treatedset 10’ on center @ 48” below grade
2 X 6 – pressure-treated skirt board around bottom perimeter
2 X 6 – wall girts 24” on center (horizontal studded wall system, ready for interior finish)
2 X 4 – roof purlins 24” on center
2 X 12 – double truss supports
2 X 6 – “Y” bracing along both eve walls (as needed)
40’ – Trusses set 48” on center @ 4/12 pitch 12” eve and gable overhangs
40’ – Scissor Trusses set 48” on center @ 4/12 pitch 12” eve and gable overhangs
40’ X 8’ wall – 2 x 4 set 24” oc
2nd floor – 16” I joists set 16” oc
¾” osb floor sheeting in 25’ area
Railing for mezzanine area

1.	Price to Purchase40 X 80 X 16 building package only, as specified			$ 44,995.00
2.	Cost of labor to erect 40 X 80 X 16 complete as specified					$ 14,320.00 
3.	Price to Purchase 1 – 12 X 14, commercial 2” thick 26GA steel, micro grooved,
insulated overhead door, installed							$   1,900.00
4.	Cost to excavate site, install up to 10” stone pad compacted				$   8,250.00
5.	Cost to install 4”, 4000 PSI fiber mesh concrete floor complete				$ 14,660.00
6.	Cost to purchase and install 12” insulation (ceiling) 6” insulation (exterior walls)
7.									Materials and Labor	$   9,880.00
8.	Cost to purchase and install metal liner panel on ceiling of building – Materials and Labor$   6,265.00
9.	Cost to purchase and install osb lining on shop area walls only – Materials and Labor	$   2,035.00

thoughts?

 

[DCarr2]

Seems to me itd be cheaper to go with OSB on the ceiling as well.

this is the opther quote from 12/2013

Building Specifications:
	48’ x 68’ x 14’ post frame building
	Painted steel siding and roofing
	12” eave and gable overhangs (vented soffit in eaves only)
	1 – 12’ x 10’ insulated overhead door
	1 - 3'-0" steel walk door with lock set (insulated for added strength)
	4 - 3’ x 3’ insulated sliding windows
	Truss supported roof, every 48" O.C., engineered to meet all snow load requirements
	Truss bottoms engineered to support an insulated ceiling without any additional framing
	Roof purlins across trusses every 24" O.C.
	Pressure treated posts with lifetime warranty
	Concrete footing under and around base of posts (post holes approximately 4' deep)
	Sidenailers across posts every 24" O.C.
	2x8 pressure treated splash board at grade level




Total Erected Price:$39,200.00


Options:
	4” stone allowance for floor/base (80 ton) Add - $2,800.00
	4” concrete floor (4,000 psi, reinforced) Add - $18,930.00
	Gutters and downspouts – Add $1,120.00

 

[lippy]

I just had a 40x80x12 pole shed put up with a 12x30 porch on the end. erected with insulation, 6x6 uprights trusses on 5 ft centers, two openings for 10x10 and two walk ins, erected, $25,000. I am going to live in one end 30x40.

 

[matt_i]

I have a hard time visualizing the interior space. Maybe some sketches, not for me, but just to attach to the quote as you finalize it. Just put a few basic dimensions, etc. Picture is worth a thousand words more or less.

 

[tomroblee]

Your latest quote is what it is. In my mind, there are a lot of answered questions.
Does the quote include all necessary permits, inspections, etc.?

Will the building be built to "code"? If so, what code?

A pole building, even one with insulations, ceilings, and covered walls can be built very quickly by a modest sized crew. The bid doesn't include in-floor heat, plumbing, wiring, etc. Are you intending on adding these items after your contractor has finished the building, or do you intend for the contractor to schedule the various phases of his work around your plumber, electrician, HVAC contractor, etc? Will there be extra charges for these delays?

The material list in the bid was rather vague. Are the windows single pane fi or triple pane argon filled low E insulated glass? What kind of insulation will be used? How thick will the osb be?

For in-floor heating I would assume that you would want a vapor barrier and insulation under the slab---and perhaps some steel reinforcing. I didn't see any mention of that. I didn't see any mention of gutters and downspouts. How about stairs to the second floor?

 

[52wrench]

"I just had a 40x80x12 pole shed put up with a 12x30 porch on the end. erected with insulation, 6x6 uprights trusses on 5 ft centers, two openings for 10x10 and two walk ins, erected, $25,000. I am going to live in one end 30x40. "

Please tell me that is w/o the slab.

 

[lakeroadster]

I just had a 40x80x12 pole shed put up with a 12x30 porch on the end. erected with insulation, 6x6 uprights trusses on 5 ft centers, two openings for 10x10 and two walk ins, erected, $25,000. I am going to live in one end 30x40.

25 grand... Really... As the young punks say... "prove it"

 

[Novadiecast]

I would also bring up the fact that 3'x4' single hung windows do not meet egress codes for any sleeping rooms in the house part of the building.

 

[lippy]

"I just had a 40x80x12 pole shed put up with a 12x30 porch on the end. erected with insulation, 6x6 uprights trusses on 5 ft centers, two openings for 10x10 and two walk ins, erected, $25,000. I am going to live in one end 30x40. "

Please tell me that is w/o the slab.

Right, the 5 inch slab is another $15,000.

 

[lippy]

25 grand... Really... As the young punks say... "prove it"

Sorry you'll have to move. No Colo. http://www.dtcbarns.com/

 

[lippy]

In case you guys were wondering, I have been a HAMB member since 2006 I just lurk over here usually. Lippy





I also upgraded to the heavier tin. Lippy

 

[lakeroadster]

Sorry you'll have to move. No Colo. http://www.dtcbarns.com/

I also upgraded to the heavier tin. Lippy

Nice Barn ... I stand corrected

 

[52wrench]

Damn, that is nice. I might have to move.

 

[lippy]

These guys did a wonderful job on this building. I was amazed at how straight this thing is. The only equipment they used was a gas powered maneater posthole digger. They put up the 40 ft rafters by hand. Two and a half days and they were packing up. Best working crew I have ever seen. Half the money when the building came, the other half when it was finished. I am a picky old fart, and I am so happy to be on the way to getting more room. The guy running the crew was Gary. I think they have a few crews , The boss Zach was a pleasure and bent over backwards to accomadate us.