Portable or Whole House Generator

[Matt M PA]

Hey guys...I've searched and searched both here and elsewhere.

I've been considering a generator. We've been fortunate that in our 12 years in our house...we've only ever had one lengthy power outage and that was about 12-14 hours. That was doing last year's bad snowstorm, but we seem to have regular, short outages when someone hits a pole on our street, etc. One this past summer lasted a good part of the day.

I work at home, and since we have a well we can't even flush the toilets more than once each if the power goes out.

My next door neighbor and I are pretty good friends, and his son's HVAC company gave me a quote for a 22,000 Generac. (He works part time doing estimates, etc) The quote is for $8500 all in. The gas company will install an upgraded meter at no charge. The installer also offered 1 year 0% financing.

I'm having a real problem justifying the expense and thought of maybe getting a portable generator that could run our heater, well pump...and some other circuits. Of course, my detached garage would be left out.

Talking with an electrician friend, he suggested against a portable. He has one, and thinks that by the time you buy a good portable (say a 7000 - 9000 unit) and get it hooked up correctly....find a place to keep it....plus the maintenance, keeping fresh gasoline, etc...you're better off with a whole house system that will do it all.

I try to do things right, and would rather not do something that I won't be pleased with later...I'm glad for your thoughts....

 

[Stuart in MN]

Unless you have some outstanding electrical loads a 22kW generator is probably big enough to run your house, your neighbor's house, and several other houses all at the same time. Considering your past history with power outages, I'd go for a much smaller generator to run just the essentials.

 

[Lucid Moments]

I am looking at a somewhat similar situation and have pretty much decided on a portable myself. A 9kw unit can run my well pump, refrigerator, air handler (for gas heat) and a few lights and computer stuff all at the same time, easily. The one thing I am going to do is get one that is dual fuel capable and run it on propane. Don't want old gas clogging it up when I need it.

 

[rbrock]

Are you ever away from the house in the winter (vacation) when being with out power would cause the house to freeze up? A whole house auto start system would take care of that. It might not be a problem, just something to think about.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

I don't mind switching loads around, and really running my life on my EU2000 wouldn't bother me much for a week or so. I'd have to run the bigger one if I needed to weld something. Plus the portables can get tossed in a truck if I need power at some site.

 

[themiller]

I was in a similar situation not that long ago - including working from home 5 days a week, well, etc. What I found is that $9k buys a lot of time at the local coffee shop/restaurant to work and poop. Just a thought.

I'd put the network gear on an oversized UPS and grab an EU2000i for the PC/printer/whatever else little you need. But I'm cheap.

When I ran the $'s - the yearly run costs on a 22kw unit was ~$100 and that's just for the weekly main't cycle. The yearly service visit was ~$200/yr. Why pay for service? Warranty requires proof of main't... and getting parts in an emergency - you better hope you have a relationship with local fellow. Even the post office wouldn't deliver to my house during the last emergency.

$300/yr opex + capex on a unit that is only warrantied for 10 years. $8500/10 = $850/yr.

So minimum $1150/yr for a few hours of power outage here and there? I bought an EU2000i and some extension cords.

 

[mrodgers]

Whole house generators would be great, but too rich for my paycheck. When I was married, I couldn't afford even a portable. The family had one and as the family was spread out around rural area, it moved from house to house depending on who was under a power outage. Kept the fridge, and entertainment for the kids going.

I hear you on the water problem with a well and power outage. My wife would fill up buckets when bad weather was coming so we could flush the toilet. Showers could be had at other family member's houses.

I always had to ask her why the buckets when it was bad thunderstorms coming since it wasn't winter. I would just point outside to the 11,000 gallons of water in the pool that was available to bucket into the toilet.

 

[bugnut]

Similar living here, as well and septic go out without power. I bought a battery start generator and a generlink hookup. Put the generator on a cheap trailer and store it in the outbuilding. Run a tank of gas through the generator each year. Had to replace the shutoff on the gas one time which was the only additional expense. Will run all but the ac unit in the house. This is safe, easy and the family has been schooled on how to hookup and get running, Have now used the battery box as the power source for the electric start on the generator. Less than 1500$ annual cost a tank of gas....

 

[Kaizen]

if you have nat gas go for it. i don't and have a 900 dollar generac boat anchor that i havent used in 8 years (luckily). as said i built a house for it and pad and have to maintain it and i'm always surprised when it starts as it sits for 6 months. pita.
plus its so heavy its impossible to move esp in 2 feet of snow

 

[yeldogt]

There is no correct answer ..... $8500 .. fully installed to code, is a good price -- especially in PA. You could easily have close to 2k in electrical work to properly set up a portable ... plus the unit. And you have to be there and keep it going.


Two of my nephews are in PA -- they both recently put in generators. One lives along a stream that has overflowed more times in the past few years than it has in 50 years. He was most worried about keeping the pumps powered ... my other nephew a few miles away has a situation like mine .... only one power line to the area and many trees (lose power all the time). Typically short .. but not uncommon for a few hours.

Nephew 1 with a larger house would have needed to either go to a water cooled unit or load shedding with a 20/22k. With his very infrequent power interruptions -- his need was truly for emergency -- fear of flooding should the pumps fail. It really boiled down to installation costs as much as anything. With nephew 2 -- they simply mounted the transfer switch next to the existing meter outside. The line from meter to main panel was rerouted to the transfer stitch -- all the generator connections went through the transfer switch outside -- the 20/22k did the whole house w/o load shedding. The gas was close.

Nephew 1 had the pumps and some other vital items pulled out to a dedicated load/transfer panel -- Furnace/ Kitchen ... lights. His install was all about peace of mind -- just in case. He has a much smaller unit further from the house and any possible flooding.

I needed load shedding for my 20/22k propane -- but it was in an all new house .. so the install was about the same regardless of what way I went. Mine was still more than $8500 .... my 20/22k unit was over 5k .. just for the equipment. $8500 is a good price.

I guess a portable set up is a viable option -- but it would have to be all ready to go in a safe and easy place to get to. Power rarely goes out in good weather ....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hey guys...I've searched and searched both here and elsewhere.

I've been considering a generator. We've been fortunate that in our 12 years in our house...we've only ever had one lengthy power outage and that was about 12-14 hours. That was doing last year's bad snowstorm, but we seem to have regular, short outages when someone hits a pole on our street, etc. One this past summer lasted a good part of the day.

I work at home, and since we have a well we can't even flush the toilets more than once each if the power goes out.

My next door neighbor and I are pretty good friends, and his son's HVAC company gave me a quote for a 22,000 Generac. (He works part time doing estimates, etc) The quote is for $8500 all in. The gas company will install an upgraded meter at no charge. The installer also offered 1 year 0% financing.

I'm having a real problem justifying the expense and thought of maybe getting a portable generator that could run our heater, well pump...and some other circuits. Of course, my detached garage would be left out.

Talking with an electrician friend, he suggested against a portable. He has one, and thinks that by the time you buy a good portable (say a 7000 - 9000 unit) and get it hooked up correctly....find a place to keep it....plus the maintenance, keeping fresh gasoline, etc...you're better off with a whole house system that will do it all.

I try to do things right, and would rather not do something that I won't be pleased with later...I'm glad for your thoughts....

why is an HVAC co installing generators?

 

[maplepuck]

move out of the sticks

 

[3rdgendslmech]

I paid 700 for a generac 5500W back in the middle of a hurricane years back. Didn't loose power then. One time we lost power and by the time I woke up, went down to fill it up with fresh gas and get the extension cords lined out...the power came back on. It got 4 hours put on it when I was building my barn last year.
On the other hand you sing a different tune when you need something and not have it vs having something and never needing it.

 

[Radix2]

why is an HVAC co installing generators?

Very common in many places.

I think this issue is 100% based on probability of use.

I have used a portable gen 1 time in 30 years. Helped maintain/advise on a whole house at my Moms (it has basically never been needed in 20 years) that has easily cost $2-500 a year to maintain plus the original costs.

So around here, it is very very expensive insurance and another mouth to feed and attend to.

If you live in a place with more frequent and long outages it can make sense, otherwise a little emergency work in an emergency is a good trade off IMO.

After all, all the expense is buying is convienience that is rarely enjoyed.

 

[b-boy]

In my area (WNY), a generator is a necessity. I've used mine at least a dozen times. In 3 cases since 2000, I was without power for 3-7 days. I usually lose power during the Winter, so my main concern is keeping the house warm enough to avoid frozen pipes (H20 and baseboard heat). My old house was prone to flooding, so the generator was a life saver to keep my sump pump running.

I have a portable unit, but I'd love to upgrade to an automated whole house system. My biggest fear is losing power and being out of town. That happened a few years ago, and my basement flooded. Nothing like coming home from a trip, tossing a bag of dirty clothes down the stairs, and hearing a splash.

I have a few friends with whole house units. They like them, but I've heard 2 stories of units failing to start-up due to bad batteries and defective parts. I'd be pissed if something I paid that much for failed to do what to was designed to do.

 

[Radix2]

I have a few friends with whole house units. They like them, but I've heard 2 stories of units failing to start-up due to bad batteries and defective parts. I'd be pissed if something I paid that much for failed to do what to was designed to do.

On the Carrier/Generac unit I am familiar with, the issue is that if it fails to start during the weekly check, it sets a light and never tries again - and wont try to start for an outage either.

The diagnostic for starting is pretty sensitive, so many RPM after a short time, so as the units age, they will not make it on occasion and that takes the whole "automatic" thing out of the equation - which for an 80 + year old female, it is a big deal.

So she has to set a timer and listen every week or it may not be ready.

The crime of it all is if you go out and do a manual start, it may be a little balky, but it still starts, this then clears the fault, and it is back in "auto" and will keep working fine for months.

I'm sure other units have better diagnostics, restart, retry protocols, but here is an example of why these things generate a lot of bad vibes when they are being sold to people with zero mechanical savvy - oh, a light, call for service - service comes out for $500, everything is fine, a few months later the same thing and another $300.... and there is not a darn thing that the service guys can really do for a 10 year old unit to make sure it starts absolutely perfectly every single time.

so then she starts talking about spending another $6000 on a new one....geeesh.

 

[ttpete]

On the Carrier/Generac unit I am familiar with, the issue is that if it fails to start during the weekly check, it sets a light and never tries again - and wont try to start for an outage either.

The diagnostic for starting is pretty sensitive, so many RPM after a short time, so as the units age, they will not make it on occasion and that takes the whole "automatic" thing out of the equation - which for an 80 + year old female, it is a big deal.

So she has to set a timer and listen every week or it may not be ready.

The crime of it all is if you go out and do a manual start, it may be a little balky, but it still starts, this then clears the fault, and it is back in "auto" and will keep working fine for months.

I'm sure other units have better diagnostics, restart, retry protocols, but here is an example of why these things generate a lot of bad vibes when they are being sold to people with zero mechanical savvy - oh, a light, call for service - service comes out for $500, everything is fine, a few months later the same thing and another $300.... and there is not a darn thing that the service guys can really do for a 10 year old unit to make sure it starts absolutely perfectly every single time.

so then she starts talking about spending another $6000 on a new one....geeesh.

A friend has a Generac whole house unit that runs on propane. His auto-starts once a week and runs for an hour without transferring, then shuts down. Once a year the service comes out and does an oil change and inspection, fixing any problem that might exist. The battery is always on a maintainer. He pays yearly for the service and that includes service calls.

 

[toplessHO]

please dont run expensive refrigerators or computers off a portable unit.
at least get a UPS unit to act as a filter

 

[theoldwizard1]

Talking with an electrician friend, he suggested against a portable. He has one, and thinks that by the time you buy a good portable (say a 7000 - 9000 unit) and get it hooked up correctly....find a place to keep it....plus the maintenance, keeping fresh gasoline, etc...you're better off with a whole house system that will do it all.

First, KNOW YOUR LOADS !! How many 240V appliances do you have besides your well pump. Electric stove, electric water heater, electric dryer ?

If NONE of those are electric or you can live without the during the outage, then you can by with a much smaller generator, like 5000W.

Unlike many things, bigger is NOT better when it comes to portable generators. Bigger means heavier to move around and will drink more fuel (the one I linked will use 6 gallons in 9 hours at 50% load).

Second, how long are your outages typically ? 1 hour, 1 day, couple of days ? Are you willing to store 25+ gallons of gas and rotate your stock (replace at least 5 gallons every month) ?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

please dont run expensive refrigerators or computers off a portable unit.
at least get a UPS unit to act as a filter

not all UPSs are created equal and many low end units do not have AVR- automatic voltage regulation, and other filtering.

Also, a UPS will not be able to run a compressor motor in a fridge for very long at all and if the fridge tries to start up while on battery it WILL trip the UPS.

 

[Specracer]

Last winter our power was out many times, the longest was 4.5 days (we are south of Boston). Our natural gas generator ran like a champ, house would have froze up (and the occupants) with out it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Last winter our power was out many times, the longest was 4.5 days (we are south of Boston). Our natural gas generator ran like a champ, house would have froze up (and the occupants) with out it.

Did you loose gas service when those gas lines blew up?

 

[Matt M PA]

We do have a 240 well pump, 240 electric water heater. There's also a 240 Dayton heater in the attached garage...which I keep on at lower top just to make sure the pipes don't freeze. We have gas baseboard heat. Plus..the detached garage that could probably be left off in a lesser install, but pipes again could be a concern.

As I likely mentioned above, I work from home so an outage could be a real issue. We've been fortunate thus far with few outages. It seems we have as many outages due to some dope hitting a pole along our street as it being weather related.

I know I can keep a portable running and serviced. Having to find a storage place that's accessible during storm and keeping the gas is probably do-able.

I read something on-line about deciding how much generator you need. There was a formal involving your biggest electric bill, dividing by the hours in the month on the bill...then doubling that figure. I assume the doubling is for some room for when things turn on, etc. Anyhow, using that formula, I'd need a 9000 generator.

yeldogt mentioned about $2000 in labor/parts to install a portable. If I add the $1200 + - for the actual unit, it's darn near half the cost of a whole house unit....

 

[theoldwizard1]

We do have a 240 well pump, 240 electric water heater. There's also a 240 Dayton heater in the attached garage...

You will easily be able to run any ONE of those with a 5000W generator. If you want to take a hot shower, turn off the Dayton heater, turn off the well pump and let the water heater run until the water is hot. Turn off the water heater, turn on the pump and take a shower.

Make life easier on yourself. Install a gas water heater. You will save money in the long run !

As I likely mentioned above, I work from home so an outage could be a real issue. We've been fortunate thus far with few outages. It seems we have as many outages due to some dope hitting a pole along our street as it being weather related.

I you are working "online", then you really should invest in a GOOD quality UPS. Not one of those cheap one you buy at Best Buy. Yes it will be expensive, but you can easily power all of your computer equipment and "ride through" minor (1-3 minute) power outages or have time to get out the generator and fire it up (10-20 minutes).

I read something on-line about deciding how much generator you need.

The only way you can do it with any accuracy is go around to each appliance that needs to be kept running and record the amount of wattage each takes. If you did NOT have those THREE 240V appliances, a 3000W generator would probably work.

yeldogt mentioned about $2000 in labor/parts to install a portable.

If you have a "modern" breaker panel and 2 empty spaces (or can juggling things around to give you 2 empty spaces) you can install a generator interlock. Add a 240V 30A inlet and the total cost should be closer to $500, certainly less than $1000.


Portable generators are not for everyone. They do require a bit of work to hook up and they require you to refill the fuel a couple of times a day, unless you get one that runs on propane/natural gas as well as gasoline.

 

[yeldogt]

Theoldwizard1 -- can't simply install an interlock on a panel around me in PA -- it has to be a UL approved transfer. You are basically installing a system based on the input outlet rating.

In many areas it just not possible to attach portable generators the way it was done years ago. Also -- Some have ideal setups where you can store and safely operate a portable and not be out in the weather. I don't have that at any of my places.

Growing up we lost power occasionally -- people had candles and flashlights. Being w/o power for even a couple hours a few times a year is no big deal. Going through the whole production to get a portable going for that situation is not worth the trouble -- it's the longer outages we have been getting that's a concern to me. That really needs the automatic setup -- you are paying for the emergency part of the equation ....

 

[mrobins297aaa]

well I vote for the portable with a inter lock switch.
I have a Generac 7500 it runs my well and everything else in my house except my ac and 240v dryer including my computers, pellet stove, frig's and big screen TV's with no problems.
I installed it all myself and including the generator I have just under $1700 in the whole system. The generator sets just inside the garage door so I only have to move it about 6' and plug it into my out side outlet go in the basement and flip the inter lock switch and within 15 minutes I'm up and running.........can't be much easier.
One thing if you go with a portable make sure you get one that will run threw the night without needing gas.

 

[Specracer]

Luckily no, that was North of Boston, we are south.

Did you loose gas service when those gas lines blew up?

 

[jade97]

The company I suggested via PM will come out and do the calculation as part of their free quote.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Theoldwizard1 -- can't simply install an interlock on a panel around me in PA -- it has to be a UL approved transfer. You are basically installing a system based on the input outlet rating.

Most (all?) interlocks are UL approved. Square D sells them for their QO load centers.

Go to your building office and ask to see the specific code that forbids them. It sound like a scam by someone to sell a whole house system.

Worst case, install a 3 position, 3 pole safety switch in front of your main panel. $$$$

 

[yeldogt]

Most (all?) interlocks are UL approved. Sqaure D sells them for their QO load centers.

Go to your building office and ask to see the specific code that forbids them. It sound like a scam by someone to sell a whole house system.

Worst case, install a 3 position, 3 pole safety switch in front of your main panel. $$$$

Nope --- most are not. the one that square D sells .. did not previously have have the stamp.

I can go further down the line as far as why we can't use them. The code (as usual) has conflicting parts to it.

IE -- It's temp. It not considered a "transfer switch" ..so must be maintain and supervised by qualified persons. Another section mentions "locked" .. what locked. A screw is not locked ... etc..

The big thing was at some point the code added a warning -- that they were not the best way ...... potential for overload.

That's what I talked about it being 2k .... my code official wanted a regular manual transfer switch and a load center with a main to match the input outlet outside.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Have you asked him for the local written amendment or are you just going off his word?

 

[mm08822]

Nope --- most are not. the one that square D sells .. did not previously have have the stamp.

I can go further down the line as far as why we can't use them. The code (as usual) has conflicting parts to it.

IE -- It's temp. It not considered a "transfer switch" ..so must be maintain and supervised by qualified persons. Another section mentions "locked" .. what locked. A screw is not locked ... etc..

The big thing was at some point the code added a warning -- that they were not the best way ...... potential for overload.

That's what I talked about it being 2k .... my code official wanted a regular manual transfer switch and a load center with a main to match the input outlet outside.

NEC Article 702 discusses permanent and portable supplies. For the portable scenario:
A hard-wired power inlet circuit is permanent, not temp. This enables the consumer to make connections in a "safe manner."

A power inlet circuit should be sized to have inlet plug, supply conductors and ocp in the panel all match. If done correctly, there is no unprotected o/l condition. If the gen gets o/l'd then it's ocp should trip.

Only mention of "must be maintain and supervised by qualified persons." is in the exception for not having any xfer equipment. Also if supply conductors were not removed then a lockable means is required for isolation.

The interlock kit is considered the xfer equipment along with the 2 cb's in the panel.

I do agree that the slide bar scheme can be easily defeated but so can 1000's of other protective schemes.

I think your local code guy is a little mixed up or mis-understood.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Have you asked him for the local written am

yeah sometimes you have to remind these inspectors that there job is to enforce the code not write it.

More than once I've asked a inspector "show me in the code book where it says I have to do it that way" usually you'll get some kind of answer like "well I can't but your not doing it that way in my township"

I'm referring to hvac work

 

[yeldogt]

NEC Article 702 discusses permanent and portable supplies. For the portable scenario:
A hard-wired power inlet circuit is permanent, not temp. This enables the consumer to make connections in a "safe manner."

A power inlet circuit should be sized to have inlet plug, supply conductors and ocp in the panel all match. If done correctly, there is no unprotected o/l condition. If the gen gets o/l'd then it's ocp should trip.

Only mention of "must be maintain and supervised by qualified persons." is in the exception for not having any xfer equipment. Also if supply conductors were not removed then a lockable means is required for isolation.

The interlock kit is considered the xfer equipment along with the 2 cb's in the panel.

I do agree that the slide bar scheme can be easily defeated but so can 1000's of other protective schemes.

I think your local code guy is a little mixed up or mis-understood.

It's not just one and not in one state -- in fact both NJ and PA. And recently -- was just asking questions because I was trying to figure out how to set up my studio.

With the growing availability (dropping cost) portable generators are being used more w/o people understanding both the danger of the units and the proper way to hook them up. I can only tell you what's around. They are really watching the installs

 

[yeldogt]

Have you asked him for the local written am

yeah sometimes you have to remind these inspectors that there job is to enforce the code not write it.

More than once I've asked a inspector "show me in the code book where it says I have to do it that way" usually you'll get some kind of answer like "well I can't but your not doing it that way in my township"

I'm referring to hvac work

My local guy was against me doing a mono-pour -- you get into a ******* match that the home owner can't win. And that's building ... the electrical code has so many variables ... and local ones as well.

There have been a few deaths caused by generators (CO) so that gets the inspectors going.

 

[mm08822]

It's not just one and not in one state -- in fact both NJ and PA. And recently -- was just asking questions because I was trying to figure out how to set up my studio.

With the growing availability (dropping cost) portable generators are being used more w/o people understanding both the danger of the units and the proper way to hook them up. I can only tell you what's around. They are really watching the installs

I just checked my supplyhouse's inventory - dc's and local sites. A large qty of kits in stk.
Even local Lowes and HD has them in stk. So wrt NJ, not sure what towns you are referring to. I never heard of such a restriction.

What's the source of this info? Which towns?

These are listed kits and approved methods within NEC.

Many times inspectors forget they need to enforce code, not recite their own.
They always try to bs homeowners. Most just say yes sir and walk away w/o a challenge or basic understanding to ask/probe/challenge.

 

[James-W]

I vote to get the Home Standby generator from Generac that runs on natural gas. That way, no matter what happens (unless the natural gas lines quit working, which is unlikely) you are prepared for any length power outage. If I were to buy a generator to use in our home, that is what I would do. But we so seldom have a power outage around here I can't even remember the last time the power went out.

 

[Hpozzuoli]

I bought one of them Chinese silent diesels about 6yrs ago. It’s a 10hp yanmar L100 clone. I think 4500w continuos? Anyways it isn’t silent, but it’s also not loud like a gas screamer. It’s in a nice enclosure with wheels. I keep it in a shed out back. I run it into my sub panel in the shed then into my main panel in the house. This gives me the ability to run anything I want in my house except AC. I might have 80hrs on it now. I maintain it and run it a couple times a year.

We lose power a lot in the winter. Last winter was 3 days in a row. I ran the gen for 3 days fueling it while it was running. We were in the teens and I didn’t want to risk it not restarting. I was surprised it started to begin with being so cold. I was down a bit of oil on day 3, but my thought was run it it until it died due to the weather. Nothing beats losing power in a blizzard and you are lit up like Walmart.

I also have a plug near my meter for my rv hookup. I can run the house off the rv as well. Typically the rv gets stored elsewhere and isn’t around for the bad weather.

 

[Matt M PA]

Thanks for all the thoughts, guys! I appreciate all the advice.

We lose power a few times year, but it's usually short duration...meaning less than 8 hours. Last winter was the first time since we've lived here that it was long enough for the house to get really cold and screw up life. I work from home, too. However, being on a state road we sometimes have power go out due to some driver texting themselves into a pole. In fact, the storm of last week had a truck stuck in front of our driveway most of the day and a Jeep across the street driving through a fence and hitting a tree.

While I haven't seen it happen yet, my next door neighbor told me about the time we moved in (12 years ago) that if there's an outage, the few houses in our "block" tend to stay out longer than the others surrounding us. (Our houses were built by bother and sister...they are still the original owners)

While I know it's a huge expense, er, investment...I'm starting to lean towards a whole house set up. Between dealing with storage of a portable and more gasoline...I'm thinking that having the whole place powered and no having to deal with all the start-up, switchover...would be nice.

I suppose this is kind of like buying insurance. You buy what you think you'll need and hope you never use it....

 

[James-W]

I suppose this is kind of like buying insurance. You buy what you think you'll need and hope you never use it....

That is a very good analogy. I realize a lot of the members here favor just getting a smaller portable generator and I get where they are coming from. But I tend to think that when the power goes out and your new home generator automatically starts up and everything in the house starts working again, you will be thankful you made the investment.