Quincy 325 ROC 10

[PirateTurner]

If you have had the patience to read my Wayne compressor post, you probably realized that I stopped work on that compressor after testing the (successfully) tank (to about 195 psi). I was anticipating getting a "free" Quincy 325 ROC 10. I picked the Quincy up yesterday. The giver had indicated the pump had frozen up due to sitting in storage for many years and he had broken it loose with a pipe wrench. I did see 'teeth' marks on the pulley but not anything to be concerned with, IMHO. Bothersome but what the heck.

Today, I pulled the head and took a look. First stage is clean with some light scoring on the walls. Looks worse than it seems, IMHO



Second stage is a little dirtier(?) and probably could use hone.



Crankcase was clean. Some sludge in there but not unexpected. I was very concerned that it would be rusty, but everything looks fine, turns smooth, and runs free. Very pleased with how it looks.



Now to formulate a plan for getting it back to working order. One issue I'm having is getting the caps off the valves but I'll work at it. I'm limited to a propane torch.

As always C&C welcomed.

 

[walta]

I understand that removing the valves generally requires a special tool.

Quincy Valve Tool #01875E

(QT200) Fits models 325 / 310 / 308 and others. Our site is easy to shop and we have online schematics, tech docs and videos available.

mastertoolrepair.com

Walta

 

[PirateTurner]

Walta, I'm trying to get the acorn nuts off valves, those big-uns in the center of the valve heads. Not quite ready to remove the valve covers so the special tool is not in order yet. I may have a tool made rather than spend $120 for the valve tool. Still, thanks for the link.

Caps seem to be brass. Hit them with the impact wrench but no movement. Sprayed them with Blaster. They can wait till tomorrow.



May have to upscale my cheapo pulley remover although it managed to get the pulley off the Wayne.

 

[MacMcMacmac]

Quincy flywheels are bastards because of the 5 spokes. 2 jaw or 4 jaw won't fit properly. The best I could manage is to let the pinch bolts go and drive a wedge in the slots near the shaft. Polish it good and add anti-seize when assembling.

 

[Shoreline_]

Walta, I'm trying to get the acorn nuts off valves, those big-uns in the center of the valve heads. Not quite ready to remove the valve covers so the special tool is not in order yet. I may have a tool made rather than spend $120 for the valve tool. Still, thanks for the link.

Caps seem to be brass. Hit them with the impact wrench but no movement. Sprayed them with Blaster. They can wait till tomorrow.



May have to upscale my cheapo pulley remover although it managed to get the pulley off the Wayne.

Nice crocs lol. My kids love their crocs.

 

[PirateTurner]

Quincy flywheels are bastards because of the 5 spokes. 2 jaw or 4 jaw won't fit properly. The best I could manage is to let the pinch bolts go and drive a wedge in the slots near the shaft. Polish it good and add anti-seize when assembling.

I've seen Clint, et al., over on CCEquipment (YouTube) wedge the slots. RotaryCompTech (YouTube) uses a two jaw puller but much more robust that my home crafted version. I may try both today as time permits.

 

[PirateTurner]

Cylinder head is broken down. Valves partially disassembled. One of slotted rings is stuck in the valve cap (2nd stage unloader) the may require that tool in post #2. Good bit rust. Good bit of carbon.

And, the pulley is off. Destroyed my cheapo puller but it is off. I'll try to get a couple of pictures tomorrow.

Had to turn a couple of walnut bowls for someone so changed gears for awhile.

 

[Jswain]

Free quincy 325....you ****!

 

[PirateTurner]

Free quincy 325....you ****!

Awww!

I'm thinking free as in maybe $800 parts/materials cost, not counting a motor. The 7.5 HP, 1 phase I have has burnt windings.

Pulled the valves apart today. Looks like 3 of 4 will need to be replaced due to corrosion, and the spring perches(?) are grooved badly. These things have ribbon springs like a coil starter except they compress vertically. The 4th valve looks new.

The folks at Quincy have been very responsive. I searched around Sunday and requested 8-10 parts books hoping to find an ROC 10 version. No joy. Did find and ROC 11. The unloader's don't look the same. Mine have brass towers and I have not seen anything yet like them in the literature. Here's a close up of one of them. That whole cap is brass.



I did make one of the valve retainer tools from a $10 socket (I get a TSC discount) and some oversized 1/4 key stock. Thank you to previous posters and Compressor Guru for the tip.

Anyway, a Quincy inside sales person in Covington GA sent me a note Monday asking if he could help when I requested the literature. I mansplained what I have found so far in an email Tuesday and the first person referred me to another inside sales person who requested pictures today. After seeing the pics, the second person is asking their "325 expert" to assist.

This picture is encouraging to me. The crank/rods seem tight and turns freely. I did loosely (re)mount the pulley to get the rod caps free by bumping the rod bolts against an old Chevy lifter from my '73 Corvette days (I miss that thing). Learned that from RotaryComp video. Gone this far might as well replace the crank bearings. That Hi press cylinder is going to need a hone.



This old dog has a vane style oil pump OBTW. All the videos I've see show a wobble pump.

 

[PirateTurner]

Road trip today and got this message today from Quincy, "The ROC 10 parts are definitely obsolete so the question is what would like to do?" My reply was, "find parts". Quincy replied, "You might get the old style off-market unloader from Independent Components in NY." So I found there web page and discovered a cross-reference list:

https://www.iccparts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Quincy-Aftermarket-Air-Compressor-Parts-List.pdf

Not I have to spend a little time looking at the ROC 11 IPB and comparing that to the cross-reference list in the link above.

Looking at the YouTube videos, I'm thinking that many of the valves and unloaders are interchangeable for the 325, e.g., I'm pretty sure Compressor Guru has a video where he changes out an unloader for one of the 'later' styles. Thoughts?

 

[MacMcMacmac]

The inner ring on that oil pump is supposed to self adjust to the rotation of the compressor, but in practice, there is never enough drag from the vanes to rotate it to the proper orientation, so be careful when putting it into to service to ensure that it is in the proper position. I used a sharp center punch and lightly tapped it into place. It rotates about 1/4 turn to open and close the proper ports.

I am confident later style unloaders will screw onto the threaded locking ring. You could just run the pump with an in-tank check valve and blow down with a needle valve on a pressure switch if you wanted to save a few bucks.

 

[pcmeiners]

"Pulled the valves apart today. Looks like 3 of 4 will need to be replaced due to corrosion,"

Any pictures, maybe they can be saved.

 

[metalmagpie]

Do you have an actual Quincy service center near you? Seattle has a good one (Rogers Machinery). When I was working on my old Quincy I used to go down there and talk to their service manager. Those guys know *everything*. They might have your old brass towers in their junk pile, for example. You won't find any parts for that oil pump, though. You can make a gasket and hopefully the rest of it is in good enough shape.

I believe you can use valves and unloader parts from later 325s. But I defer to the service managers. They know everything that's in the manual and much more too.

 

[PirateTurner]

I'll get pictures of the valves next week. Traveling to memorialize SIL. The good die young sometimes.

Quincy confirmed the valves are the same and sent the valve numbers. New ones range from $80-$200 depending on the source from what I saw on a web search. Have to look careful if they are original Quincy or after-market.

As to the unloaders, the towers look to be in good shape. The question is can I get replacement o-rings for the unloader piston (2 per). They are o-rings and it seems reasonable to think they can be matched up. FWIW, one is orange and one is black so if that is an indicator of material, you have to wonder how important that is to reliability.

RE: "The inner ring on that oil pump is supposed to self adjust to the rotation of the compressor, but in practice, there is never enough drag from the vanes to rotate it to the proper orientation..." It appears to me that there is an alignment pin between the shaft and the vane wheel (see top right in the picture). I don't know that for sure and will give it a closer look when I disassemble.

The nearest service center ~ 2 hrs away, Greenville SC. Atlanta may be closer but the traffic in Atlanta is always yuck, IMHO.

I'm waiting to pull the pistons before I start looking at parts and kits.

 

[PirateTurner]

Took the block to the machine shop for honing. Turned out way better than I thought it would. the high pressure side has 0.0035" piston clearance. Kind of a relief. The piston cleaned up better than I expected as well.

Talked to Cary at Pacific Compressor (after 3 attempts to get the phone answered) and discussed parts, etc. Placed an order and everything was in stock. He also emailed the correct (ROC 10) parts breakdown, or IPB. He acted surprised that Quincy could not provide a copy–I've searched their literature bank 2X with no joy. He also sent a copy of the rebuild guide but I already had than. Cary invited me to call back if I had any questions.

Time to finish cleaning parts. Wishing I had a bead blaster.

 

[PirateTurner]

In tank check valve. Replace, rebuild, or use as is?

 

[Jswain]

It's fairly easy to replace if it has an issue, and easy to diagnose. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[TeenagerThatLikesFloorjac]

In tank check valve. Replace, rebuild, or use as is?

Delete it...? You shouldn't need an in tank check valve with those Quincy's, the HP exhaust valve acts as the check valve

 

[PirateTurner]

Update:
Got the cylinders honed at a local machine shop. Clearance check with the pistons and clearances are well within factory specs. That was a relief.

OBTW, crankshaft looks great and diameters mic'd within specs.

I ordered a rebuild kit from Pacific Air and got it in about 3 days, IIRC. After cleaning parts I finally got to the point of installing rings and inserting pistons. The old rings were all one piece, i.e., oil and compression. The new oil ring was three pieces. The lower compression ring was one piece and the two uppers were compression rings and a spacer ring. High pressure side was simple and straight forward with no issues. The low pressure side was more challenging. Of course the oil ring and the lower compression ring were simple enough. The upper two were problematic. The ends on both spacer rings overlapped leaving no clearance for the compression ring. So...I trimmed the spacers to get the clearance for the rings. The spacers then had a tendency to 'wave' and block the compression rings for compressing. I got the bright idea of using my ancient ring compressor to maybe hold everything in place. Definitely not something you see in the Quincy rebuild how-to YouTube videos, but I was annoyed and having to take breaks to get a little calm and not doing anything rash. Haven't used that ring compressor since I hopped up the '73 Vette motor 40 yrs ago. Surprised it wasn't rusted together. Anyway this went on for 2 days, of course just a couple of hours a day because another project was going on, that I was helping on....

Yesterday was Dearly Beloved's and my 50th Anniversary.

Killing time waiting to put on clean jeans and go to the event, I went out to s'hanger, got the ring spacers aligned so that the compression rings would compress using the ring compressor and thought one more try. I installed the ring compressor upside down on the piston, inserted the piston into the bottom of the cylinder like your supposed to and pushed the piston. It went nowhere. Tappy-tap a few times with a hammer handle and nothing. HHhhhhmmmm! Loosened the ring compressor 1/4 turn pushed on the piston and the top compression ring started into the cylinder and then movement stopped. Loosened the ring compressor another 1/4 turn and slip slap the whole piston slid into the cylinder. AAAaaahhhh.

Waiting on crank shaft bearings now. Paying a local bearing supplier 2X what I could get them for on eBay but wanted to be sure. There were a couple of larger rust marks on the bearing race on the oil pump side of the crankshaft and I decided to replace both bearings.

I'm into this free compressor for about $1K right now. I keep telling myself that the grandchildren will be using this long after I'm smelling roots, not roses.

I do have one question. The relief valve on the head is marked 165 psi. The parts list says this should be a 100 psi only if the compressor is operated above 200 psi. If less, no relief valve is required. This all doesn't add up to me. Anyone know what is correct?

Thank you for following along. Still owe pictures of the valves but I decided to replace the set.

 

[TeenagerThatLikesFloorjac]

Update:
Got the cylinders honed at a local machine shop. Clearance check with the pistons and clearances are well within factory specs. That was a relief.

OBTW, crankshaft looks great and diameters mic'd within specs.

I ordered a rebuild kit from Pacific Air and got it in about 3 days, IIRC. After cleaning parts I finally got to the point of installing rings and inserting pistons. The old rings were all one piece, i.e., oil and compression. The new oil ring was three pieces. The lower compression ring was one piece and the two uppers were compression rings and a spacer ring. High pressure side was simple and straight forward with no issues. The low pressure side was more challenging. Of course the oil ring and the lower compression ring were simple enough. The upper two were problematic. The ends on both spacer rings overlapped leaving no clearance for the compression ring. So...I trimmed the spacers to get the clearance for the rings. The spacers then had a tendency to 'wave' and block the compression rings for compressing. I got the bright idea of using my ancient ring compressor to maybe hold everything in place. Definitely not something you see in the Quincy rebuild how-to YouTube videos, but I was annoyed and having to take breaks to get a little calm and not doing anything rash. Haven't used that ring compressor since I hopped up the '73 Vette motor 40 yrs ago. Surprised it wasn't rusted together. Anyway this went on for 2 days, of course just a couple of hours a day because another project was going on, that I was helping on....

Yesterday was Dearly Beloved's and my 50th Anniversary.

Killing time waiting to put on clean jeans and go to the event, I went out to s'hanger, got the ring spacers aligned so that the compression rings would compress using the rink compressor and thought one more try. I installed the ring compressor upside down on the piston, inserted the piston into the bottom of the cylinder like your supposed to and pushed the piston. It went nowhere. Tappy-tap a few times with a hammer handle and nothing. HHhhhhmmmm! Loosened the ring compressor 1/4 turn pushed on the piston and the top compression ring started into the cylinder and then movement stopped. Loosened the ring compressor another 1/4 turn and slip slap the whole piston slid into the cylinder. AAAaaahhhh.

Waiting on crank shaft bearings now. Paying a local bearing supplier 2X what I could get them for on eBay but wanted to be sure. There were a couple of larger rust marks on the bearing race on the pump side of the crankshaft and I decided to replace both bearings.

I'm into this free compressor for about $1K right now. I keep telling myself that the grandchildren will be using this long after I'm smelling roots, not roses.

I do have one question. The relief valve on the head is marked 165 psi. The parts list says this should be a 100 psi only if the compressor is operated above 200 psi. If less, no relief valve is required. This all doesn't add up to me. Anyone know what is correct?


Thank you for following along. Still owe pictures of the valves but I decided to replace the set.

The relief valve is located in the interstage part of the head. Here is a chart from Quincy that show what your interstage pressure should be. It wouldn't be a bad idea to hook up a pressure gauge and see what the interstage pressure is at 100 psi, 150 etc. The gauge shouldn't be dropping to 0, it should stay pretty consistent, maybe fluctuate 5-10ish psi.

If your reading is way over or under than the numbers given on that chart you have valve problems. Don't quote me, it's been awhile... but i believe if its overly high it indicates HP valve issues. Low would be issues on the LP side

I believe all of the early ROC Quincy's that were pumping below 200 psi came with a plug for the port in the head. The new ones come with a relief valve now regardless to prevent any damage/early warning if a HP valve starts to act up. Based on the charts 50-60 psi relief valve seems reasonable, i'm not sure what the new pumps are specd with but i'd assume it's close to that.

Glad to hear everything checked out at the machine shop, Good luck!

 

[pcmeiners]

"In tank check valve. Replace, rebuild, or use as is?"

As mentioned, the Quincy's exhaust valve should act as a check valve. As a note, that wana-be check valve is a restriction device design by bean counters, dump it, it is junk. If you really want one in place at least get a low friction, full flow check valve, but very expensive.

 

[PirateTurner]

The folks at PacAir said they put a 75 psi check valve in the compressor head.

TeenagerThatLikesFloorjac, I'm replacing the valves.

 

[PirateTurner]

Quick update. Finally got the cylinder casting installed. Then I realized the new piston rod cap nuts I bought are coarse thread not fine thread. Somebody made a pick mistake, the invoice was correct. Local company so no big deal, just the aggravation of going into town.
Also have to figure out how to torque the corner bolts. Ordered a 5/8" swivel socket today to see if it would fit under the cooling fins.

Also had to order unloader platforms. One of mine is badly rusted and pins have beaten significant indents into the surface. The other is beaten down by the unloader. PacAir said they couldn't get them so I ordered from another source and 2 days later they tell me their ordering the from the factory and it will take up to 15 days. Basically flat washers punched from 7 gauge steel. Maybe the neighbor can plasma cut some for me.

I'm on the lookout for a 5hp motor.

Quincy may have to move to the back burner. I really need to start milling some cherry and sapele for some honey-do projects.

 

[PirateTurner]

The relief valve is located in the interstage part of the head. Here is a chart from Quincy that show what your interstage pressure should be. It wouldn't be a bad idea to hook up a pressure gauge and see what the interstage pressure is at 100 psi, 150 etc. The gauge shouldn't be dropping to 0, it should stay pretty consistent, maybe fluctuate 5-10ish psi.



Glad to hear everything checked out at the machine shop, Good luck!

Thank you. Now the 75 psi that PacAir quoted makes more sense—as well as the parts book saying not needed at pressures below 200. I'll have to see about checking the interstage pressures. At this point that means buying some more hardware unless I can figure out how to attach my ancient combustion chamber pressure gauge (predates the screw-into-the plug threads models currently used).

 

[TeenagerThatLikesFloorjac]

Thank you. Now the 75 psi that PacAir quoted makes more sense—as well as the parts book saying not needed at pressures below 200. I'll have to see about checking the interstage pressures. At this point that means buying some more hardware unless I can figure out how to attach my ancient combustion chamber pressure gauge (predates the screw-into-the plug threads models currently used).

No need to over complicate things, i believe the port is 1/4 NPT, i used an old compressor pressure gauge like this.

You can see it bouncing from 40-45 psi which is actually higher than it should be. According to the chart, Quincy 310, 100psi = 35psi

Once I figured out how to seat my valves properly the number was perfect. I still have that gauge in there, i'll eventually get it swapped out for a 60-75 psi pressure relief valve.

edit: typo

 

[PirateTurner]

I tried to test the oil pump today by using my small compressor's motor with a 2.5" pulley driving a 16" pulley on the compressor. It was a Rude Goldberg arrangement. I was driving the compressor—head not installed–at ~415 rpm. Very brief run and I got no pressure. I pulled the pressure gauge and another brief run and there was no flow.

Am I running oil pump at too low of an RPM or is ring not clocked correctly? I did try to line up the ports with the slots in the ring.

I've reached out to Pacific Air Compressor, but any thoughts are appreciated.

Looks a lot cleaner F2F, BTW.

Looking at the blades right now, they look like two different pairs. Wonder if I reassembled them correctly?

 

[MacMcMacmac]

There is an o-ring on the oil pump shaft that seals it to the inner bore on the end of the crankshaft. If it is cut, missing or flattened, there will be no oil pressure.

If the strainer screen inside the crankcase is plugged, there will be no oil pressure.

There is also a centrifugal valve screwed into the counterweight on some QR25 crankshafts that dumps oil pressure at shutdown to allow the hydraulic unloader valve to operate quickly. If it is stuck or has bad seals, oil pressure will bleed off through it. You can see it peeking out on the right counterweight in the first set of photos, just behind the cover bolt hole. This is a rare failure.

The oil pressure regulator may be faulty,poorly adjusted, have bad seals, or maybe missing the ball bearing that presses against the seat to seal in oil pressure below its relief setting.

The seals in the hydraulic unloader may have failed as well.

 

[PirateTurner]

Thank you.

New oil pump shaft o-ring. Strainer was removed and cleaned. Centrifugal valve. was removed, cleaned, and reinstalled with the ball—don't recall any seals but I may have to go back in (sad face).

Replaced oil regulator seals and the ball was in-place when installed. Regulator was preset to as-found position and tightened 2 turns during flow/pressure testing.

New seals in the hydraulic unloader but no a head installed. Not clear to me what difference the unloader seals would make unless the crankcase is supposed to be pressurized to get oil flow?

 

[MacMcMacmac]

Did you prime the pump or put some assembly lube in it? If the seals in the unloader valve are leaking, the oil sent to it will pass back into the crankcase and no oil pressure will build.

 

[PirateTurner]

Did not pack the oil pump with grease. Pacific Air said do NOT pack grease in the oil pump. Guess I'll turn the compressor on its side and poor assembly lube into the pressure regulator and perhaps it will stay in the pump. Haven't figure out another way to put any oil into the pump.

I'm sure the the unloader valve is leaking. The head is not installed and the plumping is open to atmosphere. See Post #28, i.e., "New seals in the hydraulic unloader but the head is not installed. Not clear to me what difference the unloader seals would make unless the crankcase is supposed to be pressurized to get oil flow?"

Pacific Air said also to run the compressor at 550 rpm to get the oil pump to pull up oil. I have to get another motor pulley to do that.

 

[PirateTurner]

I did find a larger drive pulley at NorthernTool that fit my motor shaft and provided the recommended RPMs. I turned the compressor on its side, removed the oil pump cover plate and filled the cavity with assembly lube. Powered up the compressor and pegged the pressure gauge—recall in an earlier post that I had changed the pressure adjustment. Shut it all down and let it (and me) rest overnight. This AM, I adjusted the pressure down, started the compressor and the oil pressure was a bit high. Got it adjusted to 17 psi.

Looking forward to installing the head. I was informed that the unloader platforms I had ordered are being shipped. Those will let me seal up the cylinders/valves. Now, time to work on finding a motor and controls.

Thank you for following and for all the guidance.

 

[jim keris]

is the compressor turning in the right direction? direction of rotation is on the compressor pulley
if rotation is wrong , no iol pressure

 

[PirateTurner]

Time to remove the wrench, finish paint, install the intercooler, mount this beast, buy some fittings, finish the plumbing, find a real motor, pull some wire, and install a pressure switch.

And, I got to make some sort of air filter. The original didn't make it when the previous owner disassembled the head. Since it can be run in continuous mode, guess I'll need to stay away from paper.

Been talking to the neighbor about running a line over to his house so he has a spare source of air. He builds rock climbers. LOL!!

 

[PirateTurner]

This project is now on hold until I can a way to pay for a motor, contractor, wire and pressure switch. Hoping I have enough conduit on hand.

 

[pcmeiners]

Very nice work...I hope you did not start with a budget in mind

"Since it can be run in continuous mode, guess I'll need to stay away from paper."

????

Nothing wrong with pleated filters, as long as you have a low micron filter. On my Q325 I have 2 large Solberg silencer filters in tandem, made with 1" soldered copper. Large and tandem, so I do not need to change filters often, also tandem and copper pipe has less (minor) friction loss.

 

[PirateTurner]

Finally, got power to the compressor today. Been cobbling together pieces since last post. Found a used mag starter on eBay and weather tight enclosure for 5% of market value - may not have been wise.

Turned on the juice and motor running backwards but that gave me a chance to test that switches do what I wanted. One on pressure switch and one at the entrance to the s'hanger. The compressor sits under a shed roof outside opposite the switch. Both worked as expected. Reversed the leads at the motor to change direction and confirmed motor was turning correctly. Feeling pretty good.

Installed the belts, and moved the motor to tighten them. Hit the switch, there was an in-rush of momentum, i.e., the pulleys almost turned, and, then nothing. No go under power. Putzed around for awhile and tried a couple of times to get it to go thinking I would let the heaters cool...nothing. Checked the power in all checked good. Something in that mag starter.

Allen Bradley 512-CCB-6P-900 is the starter tag. Bar code: 0210230939552PNM082.

No smoke sighted anywhere. Yes, the compressor turns freely by hand.

Started working on control plumbing for the compressor.

 

[TRWham]

What motor and capacitors do you have? At the time of your last update, I don't think you had a motor.

 

[PirateTurner]

Picked up a 5hp Lesson at Northern Tool that they wanted to move, bad. 1/3 retail value, ~$230. I pulled in the starter manually and the motor&compressor took off as would be expected. I've fouled the control circuit somehow. I'll try to draw out the circuit and post.

I did check the coil resistance, 40 ohms.

The contractor is a 509 with overloads, I did change the heaters for the FLA of the motor nameplate. They seem to be fine.

 

[PirateTurner]

It's a runner. Got the wiring sorted out. Deleted the L2 connection and ran the neutral back to the main panel. Real doofus move on my part with the schematic that comes from watching Youtube and not thinking about what is going on. It did, however reveal the contacts were arcing and an excuse to replace them.

Ran a 30 min break-in. Concentrating on plumbing now. Got to figure out the exterior pipe up the wall and into the s'hanger.

I figure my free compressor pump has cost menorth of $1500. And, I have enjoyed the journey.

 

[walta]

I have to ask did you get the smaller motor pulley to go with the smaller motor?

How many Amps is it pulling just before the pressure switch stops the motor?

Walta