Record vise quality?

[Applesauce]

Every Sheffield-made Record vise I've ever seen has been absolutely kicked. Is this because they've been abused, or because they're sort of middle-of-the-road quality?

 

[lbgradwell]

The last of the English production was reportedly of a lower quality, but they were first-rate for decades...

 

[OUTRIGGER]

Depends

The material grade differs , you need to watch the age.

If they are marked STEEL , then they are cast steel.

The better grade of malleable iron that is good for shock hammering etc. is only used on high end models (even today) . These often incorporate a anvil surface (depending on age).

The better ones are No. 34 and 84 , you will sometimes see the 84 - as 84/34 , bigger sizes are similar eg 36

The above are "Engineers" vices.

The "Fitters" vices inc. QR types are a good grade of grey cast iron , but not for heavy blacksmithing work.

The "Mechanics" range - these don't offer QR versions , they are grey cast Iron.

However some are very heavy construction - such as a small No. 1 (I think this may be the only one) , these don't have a hollow base. So are very similar to the Paramo "Hi-Duty" range , these - I have them in all sizes and use them for hammer work.

Paramo - are similar , on their Engineers vice range , they have a 84 (I have one) , IIRC the base part of the casting is not as solid as a Record 84

A good big Record is such as a 112 or 114 STEEL.

I don't think they do a STEEL since Irvin took-over , theirs are slightly different code numbers ISTR . I have at least one of their range in "Engineers" , what I don't like is the Tommy-bar handles are smaller in dimension , they are very expensive but no competition in that class , I have picked up new ones on eBay very cheap.

Wood or metal vices , other than the older Record Engineers such as 34 84 34/84 112 & 114 , I rate Paramo the better made.

 

[rmsg0040]

All depends on how they were treated. I got 2 record vises and they are in good condition. Both bought off kijiji.

 

[bobcatdan]

The last of the English production was reportedly of a lower quality, but they were first-rate for decades...

Don't hold me to this, but I'm pretty sure Irwin owned record already when they were still made in England and that is when quality dropped. I remember 5" English made vises at menards for $70 less then 10 years go.

 

[woody 73]

Sometime back around 98 or 99 I bought a brand new record wood working vise, all I can say is that thing is a wonderful vise; wish I bought more of them. Someone told me that they are making a copy of that vise under a different name maybe I can locate that name.

 

[woody 73]

It might be this one produced in India, hard to say as so many people have copied it over all these many years:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/product-finder/anant-52-12-ed-bench-vise.aspx

 

[sasquatch12]

JMO, but i always judged a vise by it's weight.
Records to me always seemed on the light side, but haven't seen any old ones.

 

[ClintNZ]

My 35+ yr old Record #5 is a nice vice. I'd certainly rate it as better quality than anything commonly available today at the local hardware & engineering supplies stores.

Seen plenty of beat up examples of the same thing around too though, maybe it's because they will take a lot of abuse without actually breaking in half & being thrown in the scrap bin that there are so many rough looking examples still hanging in there.

I've got one of those new no brand Chinese copies of the std 7" Record QR woodworking vices too, the QR mechanism needed a little tuning but with that done it works great.

Cheers
Clint

 

[rmsg0040]

I got a Record #5 myself and a R40S

Do you know if they sell replacement jaws? The record 5 I got needs new jaws

 

[Outlawmws]

Depends

The material grade differs , you need to watch the age.

If they are marked STEEL , then they are cast steel.

The better grade of malleable iron that is good for shock hammering etc. is only used on high end models (even today) . These often incorporate a anvil surface (depending on age).

The better ones are No. 34 and 84 , you will sometimes see the 84 - as 84/34 , bigger sizes are similar eg 36

The above are "Engineers" vices.

The "Fitters" vices inc. QR types are a good grade of grey cast iron , but not for heavy blacksmithing work.

The "Mechanics" range - these don't offer QR versions , they are grey cast Iron.

However some are very heavy construction - such as a small No. 1 (I think this may be the only one) , these don't have a hollow base. So are very similar to the Paramo "Hi-Duty" range , these - I have them in all sizes and use them for hammer work.

Paramo - are similar , on their Engineers vice range , they have a 84 (I have one) , IIRC the base part of the casting is not as solid as a Record 84

A good big Record is such as a 112 or 114 STEEL.

I don't think they do a STEEL since Irvin took-over , theirs are slightly different code numbers ISTR . I have at least one of their range in "Engineers" , what I don't like is the Tommy-bar handles are smaller in dimension , they are very expensive but no competition in that class , I have picked up new ones on eBay very cheap.

Wood or metal vices , other than the older Record Engineers such as 34 84 34/84 112 & 114 , I rate Paramo the better made.

Outrigger, where does the Paramo No. 6 vice land? Is it steel or something else? I have one with a swivel base, and always wondered were it would rank against a Record. I never realized Record made so many different classes of vice.

How about a Woden 186-b/1 Fixed base? (3" wide jaw)

 

[OUTRIGGER]

I would have to check up on a Paramo No. 6 . I think I have two Paramo No. 4

ISTR they are a "Mechanic" vice non-QR and have a wider jaw size than is normal on that size body. I may have a 6 that I use for folding sheet metal in because of the jaw width.

I have so many Record & Paramo now , bit of a sucker (can't walk over a shed floor now) - try to be selective when I collect a extra , go for a minta LoL

 

[MN4x4]

I have a Record 23 and a Record 52D, both purchased in 1994 and both unused, so I can't speak to their quality but they were highly recommended at the time. They're now waiting for me to finish my shop ceiling so I can get to the bench.

 

[PCO6]

I got a Record #5 myself and a R40S

Do you know if they sell replacement jaws? The record 5 I got needs new jaws

Acklands-Grainger sells Record brand replacement hard jaws (screws included) and slip on soft jaws. I've replaced them on 4 of mine. The price is about $30 to $35 per set.

As for the OP's question, original Record vices are excellent quality. They are very common in industry, machine shops, etc. I wouldn't bother with later Irwin / Records vices.

View media item 36528

 

[bobcatdan]

One thought I had in reguards to the OP' question. The style of the Record vise is probably the most copied by the Asian imports. Maybe he is seeing a lot of beat up chicoms. Record vises are not real common in my parts, but the imports are everywhere.

 

[Beenman]

Proper Record vices from Sheffield are tough, and I would comfortably buy another one in a flash. Make sure its the Sheffield UK made one, as license agreements were given to a number of countries to copy them.

I have a smaller Record (I think # 3) that has seen serious use as an 'anvil' and 'bender' of all sorts of metal without any failure. In fact, I have ripped it out of my work-bench, bolts and all, when trying to do a 90 degree bend on a 6.0mm flat bar - no damage (work bench was broken though).

 

[rmsg0040]

I just checked AG Canada, they want $47 online for the jaws

Funny cause its only around $10 in the US.

 

[PCO6]

^^^ $47 online plus shipping? I walked in about a year and a half ago and paid $30-$35 for next day delivery. Where did you see them for $10?

 

[lbgradwell]

I just checked AG Canada, they want $47 online for the jaws

AG must be the most over-priced business in the province. I can't believe they sell a damned thing!

 

[rmsg0040]

^^^ $47 online plus shipping? I walked in about a year and a half ago and paid $30-$35 for next day delivery. Where did you see them for $10?

https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AG...lobalProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=RCRT5D

$10 is US pricing:

http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/t5d-pair-jaw-plates-5-screws-for.html

http://absupply.net/irwin-t5d-repla...jaw-plates-5-screws-for-5-mechanics-vise.aspx

 

[PCO6]

^^^ Interesting. I can't imagine there being much difference between Irwin and Record jaws to justify that much spread in the price. Even with shipping the Irwin jaws to Canada you would probably be ahead.

 

[LX-Markham]

I just picked up this little old Record No.1 last month. Great little vise.

Agreed that AG is overpriced, but I can't seem to find certain products anywhere else. I can see AG from my office window

sorry off topic: but any suggestions as to where to buy shop equipment stuff other than AG? (GTA members)

 

[PCO6]

^^^ Sounds like you're in the Beaver Creek area. I avoid A-G and only go there when there's no other choice. They are high end and sell mainly to business so they really don't need off the street guys like me. I don't know if there's another supplier that offers the same range of goods for better prices but I can usually find what I need from multiple (cheaper) sources. A-G in Newmarket is just around the corner from Princess Auto and I spend a lot more time there.

Here's a pic of my "Record" No. 1. It's actually a Woden which is essentially the same thing.

View media item 36773

 

[PCO6]

I have a Record 23 and a Record 52D, both purchased in 1994 and both unused, so I can't speak to their quality but they were highly recommended at the time. They're now waiting for me to finish my shop ceiling so I can get to the bench.

I also have a new/unused Record 52D that is looking for a bench. I've used one just like it in the past and know you will like it.

View media item 37604

 

[Hako86]

^^^ Sounds like you're in the Beaver Creek area. I avoid A-G and only go there when there's no other choice. They are high end and sell mainly to business so they really don't need off the street guys like me. I don't know if there's another supplier that offers the same range of goods for better prices but I can usually find what I need from multiple (cheaper) sources. A-G in Newmarket is just around the corner from Princess Auto and I spend a lot more time there.

Here's a pic of my "Record" No. 1. It's actually a Woden which is essentially the same thing.

View media item 36773

Is this one made from cast steel or cast iron? I have the same vise, less pretty but in good shape

 

[PCO6]

Is this one made from cast steel or cast iron? I have the same vise, less pretty but in good shape

To be honest, I don't know. I know you can grind and cut to figure it out but I'm not going to do that. Are there other ways? Given the approximate time it was likely built (60's?) I suspect it's cast steel.

 

[Applesauce]

AG must be the most over-priced business in the province. I can't believe they sell a damned thing!

No, in the country.

 

[OUTRIGGER]

With Record vices , a rough guide to age is - newer screws have a flat end near the Tommy-bar , older vices (I think this goes back to 1950's / early 1960's ) , metal & woodworking vices.

A rough guide goes something like this , there will be a few gaps to fill in & other vice Reference Numbers - but I think these will be older / early versions or those with a P suffix (Paramo manufactured during WW2) :-

No.

O 2.1/2" wide jaw

1 3" (older vices defo have a solid base - good small vice)

3 4.1/4"

4 4.1/2"

5 6"


The above are none QR

21 3.1/4" I think this is a QR Fitters

22 3.3/4" Fitters QR

23 4.1/2" Fitters QR

24 ? Fitters QR

25 6" Fitters QR

-----

Engineers , other than those marked STEEL (cast steel) , these are SG Cast Ductile Iron , guaranteed unbreakable - these have a integral anvil

34 4.1/2 QR , no anvil - so grey cast iron.

34 4.1/2" QR with anvil = SG Ductile Iron , probably another code on

34P 4.1/2" QR (P = I think this indicates manufactured by Paramo for Record)

34 4.1/2" STEEL QR

35 6.1/4" QR , bigger version of nominal 34 types

36 6.1/2" QR , bigger version of nominal 34 types

83 4.1/2" QR , this would be a early vice , leading on to the 84 and then obsoleted

84 4.1/2" QR No anvil - Grey CI ?

84/34 4.1/2" QR with anvil , Malleable SG Iron

110 STEEL QR 4.1/2"

112 6" QR I think there must be the various material types ?

114 8" QR I think there must be the various material types


===================


5 Hi-Duty 4.1/2" 4.1/2" , certain I have seen this with Record name on - probably a badge-engineered Paramo 5 Hi-Duty to fiull in a sales gap. Non-QR

----

Record "LEADER" , these were STEEL but weld fabricated range of sizes , QR

=================

Paramo , I have these sizes in the heavy (solid base) Hi-Duty type , made from SG Ductile Iron


00

1

2

3

4

I don't think there was a Paramo Hi-Duty 5

--------

The Paramo range seemed to follow the Record code numbers if they followed a Record style QR

I have a Paramo 84 or it may be a 84/34 (I would have to check) , probably a 84 as the base IIRC is the lighter base used on grey CI

---

There is a Paramo "mechanics" vice range of Paramo style , that has a wider jaw size on a size normally with narrow jaw, I have two sizes of these in a shed - will have to check Ref. Nos.

 

[Bigplum]

Never had trouble with a Record vice , they will break if very abused but that's not the fault of the vice ,more the fault of the ape swinging the hammer

 

[2oolhound]

Thanks for all this info OUTRIGGER. How about posting a few photos of some of your special favourites?

My 1st vise was a 6" record which was a great tool but it was stolen years ago. I've picked up a 4" and a small "O" 3 1/4" since. I bought the little one because it was such a novelty. I haven't figured out where I want to mount it but I keep it on thew bench and find myself using it quite often to clamp small pieces for dremel work or electronic soldering.

My 4" was well used but after owning the 6" it got my respect so I made it mine.



Here's the pair:


Here is the "O"

 

[PCO6]

2oolhound - That's the first No.0 I've seen. The smallest I have is a No.1 (post #23) above.

I also like your No.4. I bought a No.4 new in the mid '70's and still have it. Here it is on my bench. I have since replaced it with a No.6.

View media item 36570

 

[OUTRIGGER]

Will try and find time to take a few photographs tomorrow , not all because some are at my other place in Scotland

The cast STEEL ones will not be any better than the SG malleable Iron - they are probably that old SG MI flows well in the moulds , with steel - it can take several casts before you can find one radiograph defect free , so there is always the cost of gouging out and arc weld rectification

 

[OUTRIGGER]

Never had trouble with a Record vice , they will break if very abused but that's not the fault of the vice ,more the fault of the ape swinging the hammer

---

More or less the industry standard aren't they , probably since WW2

I must have sufficient for my needs by now

I would like a BIG "Fortis" on a swivel base , if ever I fall over one in mint condition.

The not so common ones I recall (metalworking) :-

Marples
Woden
Parkinson

All just as durable as a Record or Paramo

- certainly not the choice available in North America

--------


There is just one more , that I have not seen since I left British Railways 1970 , they had hundreds of them , in fact the most common , can't recall a name marked. The slide was enclosed - so it did not pick up abrasive dirt , had a big anvil surface on top , silver paint. Possibly - may have been manuf. in job lots in a BR workshop

 

[Bigplum]

Pretty sure I've got a record 00 vice , Ill post a picture tomorrow , tiny baby vice , if its not too dark when I get in , I'll drag my No23 vice out too

 

[lbgradwell]

My 1st vise was a 6" record which was a great tool but it was stolen years ago.

Someone slip it in his pocket? LOL!

 

[lbgradwell]

My Record stuff...

A tiny No. 11 anvil, a No. 5 vise, a smaller No. 100 vise that lives on my truck (bolted to a piece of 2"x10" for on-the-road deployment) and 24oz. and 16oz. ball-peens from the Bahco Record Marples era...

Then there's a smaller Woden No.2:

 

[exmaxima1]

With Record vices , a rough guide to age is - newer screws have a flat end near the Tommy-bar , older vices (I think this goes back to 1950's / early 1960's ) , metal & woodworking vices.

A rough guide goes something like this , there will be a few gaps to fill in & other vice Reference Numbers - but I think these will be older / early versions or those with a P suffix (Paramo manufactured during WW2) :-

No.

O 2.1/2" wide jaw

1 3" (older vices defo have a solid base - good small vice)

3 4.1/4"

4 4.1/2"

5 6"


The above are none QR

21 3.1/4" I think this is a QR Fitters

22 3.3/4" Fitters QR

23 4.1/2" Fitters QR

24 ? Fitters QR

25 6" Fitters QR

-----

Engineers , other than those marked STEEL (cast steel) , these are SG Cast Ductile Iron , guaranteed unbreakable - these have a integral anvil

34 4.1/2 QR , no anvil - so grey cast iron.

34 4.1/2" QR with anvil = SG Ductile Iron , probably another code on

34P 4.1/2" QR (P = I think this indicates manufactured by Paramo for Record)

34 4.1/2" STEEL QR

35 6.1/4" QR , bigger version of nominal 34 types

36 6.1/2" QR , bigger version of nominal 34 types

83 4.1/2" QR , this would be a early vice , leading on to the 84 and then obsoleted

84 4.1/2" QR No anvil - Grey CI ?

84/34 4.1/2" QR with anvil , Malleable SG Iron

110 STEEL QR 4.1/2"

112 6" QR I think there must be the various material types ?

114 8" QR I think there must be the various material types


===================


5 Hi-Duty 4.1/2" 4.1/2" , certain I have seen this with Record name on - probably a badge-engineered Paramo 5 Hi-Duty to fiull in a sales gap. Non-QR

----

Record "LEADER" , these were STEEL but weld fabricated range of sizes , QR

=================

Paramo , I have these sizes in the heavy (solid base) Hi-Duty type , made from SG Ductile Iron


00

1

2

3

4

I don't think there was a Paramo Hi-Duty 5

--------

The Paramo range seemed to follow the Record code numbers if they followed a Record style QR

I have a Paramo 84 or it may be a 84/34 (I would have to check) , probably a 84 as the base IIRC is the lighter base used on grey CI

---

There is a Paramo "mechanics" vice range of Paramo style , that has a wider jaw size on a size normally with narrow jaw, I have two sizes of these in a shed - will have to check Ref. Nos.

I can fill in a few blanks---the 23 has 4-3/8 wide jaws, and the 24 has 5-3/8 wide jaws (I have both vises).

 

[Outlawmws]

Does anyone know if Record 6" replacement jaws will fit a Paramo 6"?

 

[SteveW1000]

From the January 1974 Record Catalogue

Mechanics
No.

O 2.1/2" wide jaw

1 3"

2 3.1/2"

3 4"

4 4.1/2"

5 5"

6 6"

7 7"

8 8"

For swivel base add S to No
The above are non QR

-----

Fitters

21 3.1/4" QR

22 3.3/4" QR

23 4.1/2" QR

24 5.1/4" QR

25 6" QR

-----

Engineers

34 4.1/2" QR

35 5.1/4" QR

36 6" QR

these have a integral anvil
For swivel base add S to No, add P for plain screw
all guaranteed against breakage

84 4.1/2" QR No anvil, guaranteed against breakage

-----

Heavy Duty Vise

110 4.1/2" QR

111 5.1/4" QR

112 6" QR

114 8" QR

Add P for plain screw
all guaranteed against breakage

-----

Heavy Chipping Vise

516 6" Non QR

518 8" Non QR

Guaranteed against breakage

-----

Combination Vise

631 3.1/2" Non QR

632 4.1/42 Non QR

633 5" Non QR

634 6" Non QR

American style, all with pipe jaws.
Add S for swivel

-----

Leader Steel Vise

12 4.1/2" Non QR

14 6" Non QR

Hot rolled steel, guaranteed against breakage
Add P for plain screw

-----

Workshop Vise

30 4" Non QR

31 4.1/2" Non QR

32 5" Non QR

33 6" Non QR

Guaranteed against breakage
Add S for Swivel for 32 and 33
Homeowner vise

-----

74 4"

75 5.1/4"

Swivel vises for garage trade, both with pipe jaws, 75 guaranteed against breakage

-----

70 3"

80 2.1/2"

Clamp on vises

-----
Woodwork Vises

52 7"

52.1/2 9"

53 10.1/2"

Add D for front dog and QR on 52 and 52.1/2
Add E for QR on all three sizes
Add P for QR on all three sizes

50 6" Amateur WW vise

51 6" Junior WW vise, clamp on

57 7" Woodcraft vise


These are all that was listed in 74 apart from the 15 pipe vises and 3 drill press vises can add these if any ones interested.

Steve

 

[OUTRIGGER]

QUOTE.

exmaxima1

I can fill in a few blanks---the 23 has 4-3/8 wide jaws, and the 24 has 5-3/8 wide jaws (I have both vises).

---

I have noticed this , "generally" put a rule on and the jaw dims. are 1/8" less than the catalogue stated nominal

-----

A catalogue list has now been shown by a thread contributer , that fills a few gaps with sound info. Obviously only valid for what Record were selling that year , keep eyes open for earlier or later manufacture - there are a few others to list yet