Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

[Smokeshow69]

Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

Yeah, looking forward to the big swaps this year, I hope we can meet up. My tastes are so eclectic that I often spot the oddities, but you and Smoke dig deep.

I can’t wait for the swaps either! I have learned to dig deep because that is where the plomb and other vintage tools I collect hide out! Yours and rileysan’s taste are slightly different than mine but we all know what each other likes and we don’t usually run each other over so that is good.


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[d42jeep]

Simulacrum? I believe that the nice handle came from a high quality Oxwell tool. I recently added some handles to some Snap-on spinner shafts that the original handles had totally disintegrated from.
Here are my Long C finds at a local estate sale today.
-Don

 

[Smokeshow69]

That's the nicest thing said to me all week!



But seriously, I always enjoy picking with you. You have an eye for things I often overlook.

I have thinking about this comment. That is a huge compliment from Bmwrd0! He always finds the really nice stuff like literature and other top not machinist tools! Luckily, he doesn’t like the rusty gold that is in the mud like we do ( which makes us bottom feeders [emoji23]). Should be a great swap season!


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[LesserSon]

Today I picked up an underlined CI No2 tappet, nested-diamonds =:USA:= side-cutting slipjoints, two (F) screwdrivers, a C-series 13/16 socket and a (H) long-C 1-1/8 socket.
Do I understand correctly that the C-series are the oldest Craftsman sockets?

 

[Rileysan]

Today I picked up an underlined CI No2 tappet, nested-diamonds =:USA:= side-cutting slipjoints, two (F) screwdrivers, a C-series 13/16 socket and a (H) long-C 1-1/8 socket.
Do I understand correctly that the C-series are the oldest Craftsman sockets?

I believe the earliest were the Craftsman Vanadium sockets believed to be made by Hinsdale. I have yet to acquire any. The photos are compliments of Alloy Artifacts

Brian

 

[Username already in use]

That's the first new Britain I have seen.

Let's double that number for you.

Here's my New Britain and Craftsman BE spinners. The BE handle has some serious decomposition happening. The New Britain is in great shape!

 

[Oldtuleguy]

The few I have definitely look like hinsdale. Here's a couple 3/8 drive Hinsdale with some vanadiums.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Vast difference between my two BE flex spinners. The handle of the good one looks pretty much brand new. The other one...not so much.

 

[jusridin]

That's why I love this site, always something to learn and see. Great stuff guys!

 

[Gear Wolf]

I believe the earliest were the Craftsman Vanadium sockets believed to be made by Hinsdale. I have yet to acquire any. The photos are compliments of Alloy Artifacts

Brian

Brian, the earliest were the "C-Series".

The Hinsdale story in the Craftsman timeline is a little strange. The company had to close its doors in early 1930 only to reopen in 1933. By this point, other suppliers were already providing sockets to the Craftsman cause.

Prior to closing, Hinsdale didn't make their own drive tools. These were outsourced. They did make the case, sockets, and accessories that went into their branded tool kits. Here is what we know. The "Craftsman Vanadium" sockets were for sure made by Hinsdale. Were the "Craftsman Vanadium" ratchets made by Hinsdale? I would say it was unlikely.

Consider the company's financial and technological position before they declared bankruptcy and shortly after they reopened. If they didn't have a ratchet program before, its not likely that they were developing the tooling, designs, or metallurgy themselves for a few years without the capital to do so. In my opinion, it is more probable that Hinsdale had to hire another tool manufacturer to help supply a drive tool for their small tool kits, at least until they were stable enough to create the "H" series Hinsdale ratchets. One could argue that they could have paid a license to use an already available patented design; however, they'd still need to come up with the money to tool up.

So who made them? I have a working theory. I think Ken, Craftsman C-Series, would agree with me on this one. I believe Blackhawk made them using a variation of the 1936640 patent. In my opinion, the answer is within the mechanism and the ratchets general body plan.

Do I think the Craftsman/Hinsdale Vanadium ratchets are weird. Absolutely! It could be easy to discount the possibility that Blackhawk made them due to the fact that they look a little "extraterrestrial" compared to the early iterations of the "Freewheel Ratchet" Blackhawk made. Compounding the problem, the Craftsman/Hinsdale Vanadium Ratchets are both scarce and rare. Yet, without having certain ratchets in your hand, taking them apart, and/or handling them, it can be tough to have a degree of direction or certainty.

Much like the Craftsman C-98 and Snap On L-67 being a variation of the Gagne patent, I believe the Craftsman/Hinsdale Vanadium ratchets are a variation on the Blackhawk "Freewheeling Ratchet" theme.

 

[LesserSon]

Brian, the earliest were the "C-Series".

The Hinsdale story in the Craftsman timeline is a little strange. The company had to close its doors in early 1930 only to reopen in 1933. By this point, other suppliers were already providing sockets to the Craftsman cause.

Prior to closing, Hinsdale didn't make their own drive tools. These were outsourced. They did make the case, sockets, and accessories that went into their branded tool kits. Here is what we know. The "Craftsman Vanadium" sockets were for sure made by Hinsdale. Were the "Craftsman Vanadium" ratchets made by Hinsdale? I would say it was unlikely.

Consider the company's financial and technological position before they declared bankruptcy and shortly after they reopened. If they didn't have a ratchet program before, its not likely that they were developing the tooling, designs, or metallurgy themselves for a few years without the capital to do so. In my opinion, it is more probable that Hinsdale had to hire another tool manufacturer to help supply a drive tool for their small tool kits, at least until they were stable enough to create the "H" series Hinsdale ratchets. One could argue that they could have paid a license to use an already available patented design; however, they'd still need to come up with the money to tool up.

So who made them? I have a working theory. I think Ken, Craftsman C-Series, would agree with me on this one. I believe Blackhawk made them using a variation of the 1936640 patent. In my opinion, the answer is within the mechanism and the ratchets general body plan.

Do I think the Craftsman/Hinsdale Vanadium ratchets are weird. Absolutely! It could be easy to discount the possibility that Blackhawk made them due to the fact that they look a little "extraterrestrial" compared to the early iterations of the "Freewheel Ratchet" Blackhawk made. Compounding the problem, the Craftsman/Hinsdale Vanadium Ratchets are both scarce and rare. Yet, without having certain ratchets in your hand, taking them apart, and/or handling them, it can be tough to have a degree of direction or certainty.

Much like the Craftsman C-98 and Snap On L-67 being a variation of the Gagne patent, I believe the Craftsman/Hinsdale Vanadium ratchets are a variation on the Blackhawk "Freewheeling Ratchet" theme.

I’m new to the C-series, and I haven’t even looked at the drive tools, so please bear with me. The AA site claims persuasive evidence that the C-series was manufactured by Snap-on for Sears 1932-1936. But you say Blackhawk.
The two founders of Snap-on WERE former employees at Blackhawk, so I’d think there would be a family resemblance in any case.
But by 1931, those guys were out. Earl W “Bill” Myers, president of Forged Steel Products (the supplier of Vacuum Grip pliers to Snap-on) had exchanged Snap-on’s Financial debt to FSP to become the president of Snap-on himself (1931-1939). He personally held the 1921 patent on the octopus-sucker handle pattern of Vacuum Grip pliers.
MORE INTERESTINGLY, he also held the 25Oct1921 design patent D59506 for a nested diamonds grip pattern, which is what we see on Craftsman pliers of the period.
It seems to add more plausibility to Snap-on vs Blackhawk as OEM, despite being a different tool type. And then, maybe Sears realized it could have the same tools produced by a different manufacturer for less than what Snap-on was charging.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

When I look at the blackhawk freewheelers there is a resemblance to the c98. Sorry, meant vanadium.

 

[GalaxyRat]

Re: Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

Happy Monday, everyone. My Long Head (right?) 1/2" ratchet came in today!! I am super excited, I broke it down and sprayed the internals with brake cleaner. I wanted to dive deeper into it, but we have nuisance gators to take care if. I'll post again once I get it cleaned up and put back together.

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[Private Lugnutz]

I’m new to the C-series, and I haven’t even looked at the drive tools, so please bear with me. The AA site claims persuasive evidence that the C-series was manufactured by Snap-on for Sears 1932-1936. But you say Blackhawk.

LS,
Either you or I are misreading GW's post. He's not addressing Craftsman C-Series at all, except to repeat the assertion that the C-Series ratchets are Snap-on sourced, and to draw a parallel between that scenario (the Craftsman C-98 being a fraternal, non-identical variation of the Snap-on L-67) and a Craftsman Vanadium series scenario in which the Craftsman Vanadium ratchet is similarly a fraternal, non-identical variation of the earliest Blackhawk "Freewheeling" 9810 ratchet. I think he's saying that while there's no doubt that Hinsdale made the Craftsman Vanadium sockets, he believes that Blackhawk made the Craftsman Vanadium ratchets.

I believe Blackhawk made them using a variation of the 1936640 patent. In my opinion, the answer is within the mechanism and the ratchets general body plan...[ ]...I believe the Craftsman/Hinsdale Vanadium ratchets are a variation on the Blackhawk "Freewheeling Ratchet" theme.

Very interesting, GW. Lending some credence to your theory is the contents of those early Craftsman Vanadium nut spinner sets, which are carbon copies of the Hinsdale nut spinner sets, which did not have any ratchets. Suggesting that Hinsdale did not have a ratchet to put in them. But I could be totally talking out of my you know what there, because I have more questions for you than answers.

For starters, did the socket sets Hinsdale was producing at that time, and which the Craftsman Vanadium sockets were based on, ever include a ratchet? Did it look like the Craftsman Vanadium ratchet? (That could mean it was also sourced by Blackhawk, but still, I am wondering...)

Secondly, do you own a Craftsman Vanadium ratchet, if so, have you ever had it apart, and have you ever compared the mechanism you say is key (and I agree) to an early Blackhawk 9810 Freewheeling ratchet?

Lastly, are the Craftsman Vanadium ratchets freewheeling? If not, I question the reason to contract with Blackhawk. There is nothing special about the frame of the ratchet. Seems like a lot of trouble to not include the freewheeling functionality.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Re: Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

Happy Monday, everyone. My Long Head (right?) 1/2" ratchet came in today!! I am super excited, I broke it down and sprayed the internals with brake cleaner. I wanted to dive deeper into it, but we have nuisance gators to take care if. I'll post again once I get it cleaned up and put back together.

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Nice ratchet GR but not a long head. The long head NB rats came along in the late 30s. The pic I've attached is a 3/8 drive from the AA site but the design was the same for the 1/2d rat. Your rat first shows in the catalogs in 1940 and runs through the end of the NB era, last appearing the 48 catalog. Right at the end of their run they were delegated to the "economy" sets as the Moore rats moved in. For what it's worth I think that rat you have is the best 1/2d rat Craftsman ever sold EDIT: At least of the many I've had my hands on). The thing is built like a tank.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Gear Wolf. Thanks for the info and ideas. Now all I need to do is find a Vanadium rat to look at!

 

[LesserSon]

A-ha...You’re right, Lugz:
I did not know what to make of GW’s “I think Ken, Craftsman C-Series, would agree with me on this one. I believe Blackhawk made them,” and thought “C-series” was the antecedent of “them”.
Like I said, I have not looked into the drive tools, so I wasn’t able to mentally compare his description with the relevant ratchet.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

No problem. "Craftsman C-Series" is the username of a GJ member (first name Ken, apparently), making him really hard to address or refer to in 3rd Person!

AA does not have a Craftsman Vanadium ratchet in its collection, I don't feel like searching around on such a generic term likely to yield all kinds of tools, and I don't think it had a model number to narrow searched down, so I'll just wait until someone posts one.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

These are the pics posted by GJ member Craftsman C-series back early this year.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Ahhhh. THAT ratchet. Of course! I remember now. I'll say the same thing I said back then, which I was hinting around about interrogatively again in my post to GW a few hour ago... If Hinsdale is not the OEM, the OEM had to have made them for Hinsdale, too..., because those similarities (ring of rivets, push-button selector disguised as a rivet nestled in the ring, and the grip) to the Hinsdale ratchet that looks just like that cannot be a coincidence. And that not being freewheeling makes me very leery. I don't think the shape alone is enough to tap Blackhawk. But I could be convinced. Somebody needs to send Craftsman C-Series a Blackhawk 9810, or vice versa, to do some component level comparisons and some close mic'ing. Or perhaps GW has already done that.

 

[r_olson_06]

That has such a striking resemblance now that it is pointed out to Blackhawk. Back when I was super big into ratchets I tried to win a Hinsdale version of the bubble selector but was sniped last minute on the bay for over $100.
Either way Lugz is right we need to do a mic check.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[r_olson_06]

Here is a pic I still have as a reference.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[GalaxyRat]

Re: Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

Nice ratchet GR but not a long head. The long head NB rats came along in the late 30s. The pic I've attached is a 3/8 drive from the AA site but the design was the same for the 1/2d rat. Your rat first shows in the catalogs in 1940 and runs through the end of the NB era, last appearing the 48 catalog. Right at the end of their run they were delegated to the "economy" sets as the Moore rats moved in. For what it's worth I think that rat you have is the best 1/2d rat Craftsman ever sold EDIT: At least of the many I've had my hands on). The thing is built like a tank.

JoCo,

Thanks again for the info. I love learning about these old Craftsman tools. I've got pretty much a whole set of 1/2" drive tools now. I'll have to put them all together and get a family picture. I think I'll do that tomorrow, actually.

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[Gear Wolf]

The Craftsman Vanadium Ratchets are freewheeling. The Hinsdale Vanadium Ratchets and the Craftsman Vanadium Ratchets are exactly the same, except for the branding.

No, have have not dissected any...yet. I have very real reservations in doing so, given that I would be vaporizing hundreds of dollars for opening just one of them. Plus, these are already rare as it is. Admittedly, I am very torn about it, since part of the series almost requires that I do so.

I have a greater theory that involves Snap On, SK, Hinsdale, Vlchek, and New Britain vying for position over the course of just a few years. If I am correct, Sears started shopping around quite heavily looking for someone to offer a more sophisticated drive system versus what was offered in the CF-87 and C-97 along with a comprehensive tool "ecosystem".

Yes I do have the Craftsman, Hinsdale, and even an example without a brand. I have the earliest examples of the Blackhawk friction clutch ratchet as well as later iterations.

Again, this is a working theory. I spoke with David Maher earlier this year for a good couple of hours about these very ratchets. His operate the same way mine do. So mine cleared the functionality check. Mine aren't anomalies, which means they were purposefully made with the friction clutch mechanism. While I am willing to bet there is some modification/alteration to the original patent, to my knowledge, Blackhawk was the only game in town investing in and producing this technology at this time.

If you read the first Blackhawk friction clutch patent and the subsequent submissions, the patents flat out state that the reason why subsequent modifications were being submitted had to do with flaws in the original design, chief among them, the mechanism slipping over time due to use.

It is possible that the Vanadium variants were a step in that journey or perhaps the Hinsdale asked, "What kind of friction clutch drive can you make me with these criteria for this price?"

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Definately resembles the blackhawk freewheelers.

 

[Gear Wolf]

I grabbed a few of the examples I have and took a quick photo of 3 together:
View media item 99369

Now let me turn the angle:
View media item 99370

 

[Gear Wolf]

I have a few more things I'm going to save for the Craftsman Vanadium History video.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

You make a good case

 

[Gear Wolf]

LS,
Either you or I are misreading GW's post. He's not addressing Craftsman C-Series at all, except to repeat the assertion that the C-Series ratchets are Snap-on sourced, and to draw a parallel between that scenario (the Craftsman C-98 being a fraternal, non-identical variation of the Snap-on L-67) and a Craftsman Vanadium series scenario in which the Craftsman Vanadium ratchet is similarly a fraternal, non-identical variation of the earliest Blackhawk "Freewheeling" 9810 ratchet. I think he's saying that while there's no doubt that Hinsdale made the Craftsman Vanadium sockets, he believes that Blackhawk made the Craftsman Vanadium ratchets.


Very interesting, GW. Lending some credence to your theory is the contents of those early Craftsman Vanadium nut spinner sets, which are carbon copies of the Hinsdale nut spinner sets, which did not have any ratchets. Suggesting that Hinsdale did not have a ratchet to put in them. But I could be totally talking out of my you know what there, because I have more questions for you than answers.

For starters, did the socket sets Hinsdale was producing at that time, and which the Craftsman Vanadium sockets were based on, ever include a ratchet? Did it look like the Craftsman Vanadium ratchet? (That could mean it was also sourced by Blackhawk, but still, I am wondering...)

Secondly, do you own a Craftsman Vanadium ratchet, if so, have you ever had it apart, and have you ever compared the mechanism you say is key (and I agree) to an early Blackhawk 9810 Freewheeling ratchet?

Lastly, are the Craftsman Vanadium ratchets freewheeling? If not, I question the reason to contract with Blackhawk. There is nothing special about the frame of the ratchet. Seems like a lot of trouble to not include the freewheeling functionality.

Yes, you are correct. The Craftsman and Hinsdale Vanadium tool kits are carbon copies of one another. Yes, the first iterations of Hinsdale's tool kit, J13 for example, did sport . Hinsdale 3/8" drive ratchet, which looked exactly like the corresponding Craftsman variant. I actually have the sales ad for the aforementioned Hinsdale kit featuring this. The J13 kit was literally the same, minus the branding.

Yes both variants do exist and they are freewheeling.

I have more info, but I am going to hold out until I release the video.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, GW. I am convinced.

 

[Gear Wolf]

Void

 

[GalaxyRat]

As promised, some family pictures from the Circle H and BE time period.

I've got 1/2" Drive deep well sockets:

1/2" (shallow and deep) through 1 1/8"

The 1/2" Ratchet and breaker bar

1/2" drive speeder handle

I also have 3/8" drive 1/4"-5/8" shallow sockets (two 5/16", one Circle H and one BE)

3/8" drive breaker bar

And one 1/4" drive 1/4" shallow socket.

My heritage box will not close enough to latch, so I guess I'll have to find a period-correct box that they will fit into. Darn!

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[JoCoSawdust]

Thanks for the detective work and the education GW. I look forward to your Vanadium Video!

GRat: Lay the deep wells down on their sides man!! I doubt you're going to find a carry box that allows you to stand deep wells up in the socket tray. That's a nice stash you've got going. I find deep wells with far less frequency than I do regular sockets.

 

[GalaxyRat]

Thanks for the detective work and the education GW. I look forward to your Vanadium Video!

GRat: Lay the deep wells down on their sides man!! I doubt you're going to find a carry box that allows you to stand deep wells up in the socket tray. That's a nice stash you've got going. I find deep wells with far less frequency than I do regular sockets.

For some reason that seemed absurd. I guess it is aesthetically pleasing for them to be sitting up. But once I get my cork roll, I think I will lay them down.

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[Oldtuleguy]

Whatever makes them fit!

 

[Rileysan]

Brian, the earliest were the "C-Series".

The Hinsdale story in the Craftsman timeline is a little strange. The company had to close its doors in early 1930 only to reopen in 1933. By this point, other suppliers were already providing sockets to the Craftsman cause.

Thank you for the education!

Not having known anything about the bankruptcy and shutdown of Hinsdale, I thought thought it likely that since Sears was already selling Hinsdale tools prior to branding their own socket sets, Hinsdale was the most likely choice for the first OEM to make Craftsman socket sets.

Much like the Craftsman C-98 and Snap On L-67 being a variation of the Gagne patent, I believe the Craftsman/Hinsdale Vanadium ratchets are a variation on the Blackhawk "Freewheeling Ratchet" theme.

Apparently, I've been living under a rock! Until now, I thought the c-98 and Vanadium ratchets were the same. Thanks for the great write-up!

Brian

 

[Rileysan]

Yes, you are correct. The Craftsman and Hinsdale Vanadium tool kits are carbon copies of one another. Yes, the first iterations of Hinsdale's tool kit, J13 for example, did sport . Hinsdale 3/8" drive ratchet, which looked exactly like the corresponding Craftsman variant. I actually have the sales ad for the aforementioned Hinsdale kit featuring this. The J13 kit was literally the same, minus the branding.

Yes both variants do exist and they are freewheeling.

I have more info, but I am going to hold out until I release the video.

Will you be releasing a video on the Fors patented Craftsman ratchet anytime soon?

 

[Gear Wolf]

Thank you for the question.

I'm hoping talk with Craftsman C-Series again and ask if I could temporarily take possession of it via "inter-toolbox loan". (I love saying that ).

The delays had largely to do with losing family members within a short period of time, resuming the family business due to that, and attempting to recoup everything else that had to go on the back burner as a result of that. Couple that with a planned career change in the next few years, makes for an interesting 18 months. Otherwise, I'd be picking the stragglers like the Fors ratchet and hanging up my spurs at this juncture.

Honestly, I've had a great journey just preparing for this point. I'm excited to see how everything is going to come together. It should be a quantum leap over what was already done.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Thank you sir! And merry Christmas to you as well

 

[jusridin]

Maybe not as exciting to any of you as it is to me but I was ecstatic to find this for a dollar this morning! 1/2 inch Be slider