SK, Proto & Armstrong socket comparison

[shoturtle]

Not the big stuff.

 

[Mr Ratchet]

Also worth noting the SK and the Proto will bottom on the head of a bolt or nut. The Armstorng/Craftsman do not have this feature. Making it extremely difficult to start a bolt or nut from the socket as it will fall into the socket. This is why I have always disliked Craftsman sockets.

Good comparison. Thanks!

I know what you mean and that is a good feature to have sometimes. The thing is though, with the full broached sockets you can stick and O ring or something similar in the socket to limit the nuts travel. With the shallow broached sockets, you're screwed if you need the nut to go into the socket a little deeper because of a clearance issue.



In my area, there are four main industrial tool brands. Armstrong is the most popular followed by Proto and Williams equally with Wright bringing up the rear. They can all be bought locally here at various industrial supply sources. In terms of maintenance guys in industrial settings, Craftsman is far and wide the number one brand. You also see the above industrial brands with some of the tool truck brands and other miscellaneous brands mixed in.
The Proto 3/4" drive that I have is no better than the CM 3/4" drive sockets that came in my set. Neither brand shows any signs of failure.

 

[shoturtle]

Apex makes a good tool, their armstrong and craftsman are good tools. And their sockets works for me. I totally agree that in tight places full broached sockets has their advantage like shallow broached ones.

Think people like to bash apex/danaher tools just because they are apex/danaher.

 

[Mr Ratchet]

Delete double post

 

[Davefr]

I just saying that sk is not in the same league.

SK's focus has always been automotive more then industrial. (ex: Proto, Wright, Armstrong)

To say that SK is not in the same league from a quality standpoint because they choose to serve different markets is flawed.

 

[shoturtle]

At the end of the day it is still a hex shape bolt. They just do not play in that league of super high torque.

In the Automotive and DIY SK is the same as the other US made player. A good tool, but not holier they though because of the brand name. The other brands works just as well for the same applications of auto and diy.

 

[smothers33]

As much as the sk is nice product. It is not better then the armstrong aka craftman. I have used them. And there is really nothing that they offer that are any better then the armstrong or craftman. Strenght wise the craftsman and armstrong do hold up very well.

The extra cost it the precieve quality of the brand name, not the actually quality of the tool. To me pretty chrome does not equate the for extra cost.

To be honest the only set in this group that is worth the extra money really is the proto. I use them at work, and they are better then william, armstrong, and sk sockets we have at work.

are you saying Armstrong is rebranded craftsman. I'm not saying craftsman is bad. I actually think their sockets are by far the best value you can buy especially considering warranty. But i dont see how you can say craftsman is even on par with sk as far as looks. Performance you cannot argue because you have no data to back up. I cannot either

 

[smothers33]

I got the each set, Proto, Armstrong and SK all for $80-$90 each. That's less than Snap-On any day of the week. Of course if you pay full retail price then you're still less but close to Snap-On prices. Your 49 piece set for $130 is a great price.

can I ask where you bought the proto. Only place I could really find was Grainger which is pretty much full blown retail. I'm doing all this on my phone so its hard to do a good search for comparison I need a good 3/8 set and was gonna go with sk but would definately entertain proto especially if the prices are similar. Then I can see which I like better first hand. Also if you could tell me where you got the Armstrong id appreciate it. I have only 1 Armstrong tool( a 1/4 locking flex head ratchet) and i love it. Not even a comparison to the craftsman flex head i have

 

[shoturtle]

are you saying Armstrong is rebranded craftsman. I'm not saying craftsman is bad. I actually think their sockets are by far the best value you can buy especially considering warranty. But i dont see how you can say craftsman is even on par with sk as far as looks. Performance you cannot argue because you have no data to back up. I cannot either

It is a tool, looks only last 2 weeks if you use them.

I have Armstrong for work, and when I put them next to my cmans they are almost the same in every regulars in size and shape except for the stamping. Mind you I do not use the laser itched ones. I measure them with a caliper and weight them with a precision scale. And they are exact in all my measurement.

The armstrong is prettier then the cmans. The chrome is a bit brighter, but not SK bright.

The detent are the same double.

 

[Mr Ratchet]

The Armstrong and Craftsman sockets are the same down to their finish. The only difference is some of their markings.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107783

 

[shoturtle]

The craftsman and Armstrong I have are almost exact but the Armstrong is slightly brighter, a tad less brown. It could be the chrome mixture used for each batch.

 

[pipsters]

The craftsman and Armstrong I have are almost exact but the Armstrong is slightly brighter, a tad less brown. It could be the chrome mixture used or each batch.

My older Cmans (5 years so still nickel plated) are brighter than my year old ones. Probably has to do with the chroming like you said, I'm sure they've changed the formula over the years a bit.

I put my 3/8" drive Cmans up to 150 ft-lbs of torque on 19mm and 3/4" shallow and deeps and no issues, and I would never put that much torque on a 3/8" drive socket in normal use so I feel the Cman do the job they are intended to do, and coupled with an awesome warranty and cheap replacements (because you will lose them) makes for a good US made value IMO.

My beef with my SK sockets is they were so inconsistent with the stamping and the detents. I sent them back. Keeping my laser etched Cmans.

 

[shoturtle]

The problem with sk is the inconsistency thing you said. They produce allot of bad stuff when they were in chapter 11. And there is allot of that stock left still. And they still need to sort out their production after ideal brought them..

 

[cbracer]

can I ask where you bought the proto. Only place I could really find was Grainger which is pretty much full blown retail. I need a good 3/8 set and was gonna go with sk but would definately entertain proto especially if the prices are similar. Also if you could tell me where you got the Armstrong id appreciate it. I have only 1 Armstrong tool( a 1/4 locking flex head ratchet) and i love it. Not even a comparison to the craftsman flex head i have

The Armstrong ratchets and extensions are wonderful, real gems. But their sockets always rust They don't have the same thick chrome as the ratchets and extensions. You can find ToolFetch.com which has special Armstrong sets 15-199 and 15-299 for really good prices.

For proto you pretty much have to find them on ebay or sales on Amazon. I paid $80 shipped for that proto set, but I must have bought the only one they had in stock because now its up to $87.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001F8L2AI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

SK is pretty easy to find good prices on their sets through many online sites. You just can't guarantee you'll get new stock

 

[otis66]

Some older SK sockets were cold broached. Not any better than how craftsman sockets are formed...just different and one could be better worse depending on what the mfg specs and produces. The less deep broaching makes them a little stronger I suppose....but how much torque are you putting on small 1/4" drive fasteners?

I've never broken a 1/4" drive socket or 3/4" drive socket by any manufacture. But I've broken plenty of Craftsman 3/8" and 1/2" drive sockets with ratchet/breaker bar. I've only broken one SK socket. It was a chrome SK 3/4 sockect shallow and I used it with my impact wrench repeatedly over a few years. I have never broken a Snap On or MAC socket. My SK dealer warranted the SK socket even though I used it with an impact gun. The SK socket is made stronger than the Armstrong/Craftsman socket. I can put a bolt in a vice and with a breaker bar I could break Armstrong/Craftsman sockets all day.

 

[cgv69]

There's no objective information in this post, just you claiming that you think Proto is better than SK and SK is the same quality as Craftsman. There's nothing to back up those claims. Plus you have no objective info to say why the Proto is better.

There's actually no objective information posted by anyone in this thread

To me, that's the problem with all threads like this one. All opinion with little or no facts supplied to support those opinions other then the occasional anecdotal tidbits thrown in for flavor.

In fairness, what do you expect? Who has the time, money and equipment to perform any meaningful testing or analysis on the multiply availible options and then test them in large enough quantities to be statistically meaningful? So all any of us can really do is state our preferences and opinions based on our own experiences.

I don't have a problem with that per say except for when some people state their opinions as facts. Shoturtle, don't mean to call you out but you do that a lot and I wish you would tone it back. You may have a lot of experience with the brands in question but that doesn't make your opinions facts. It's one thing to say in your experience you're had better luck with Proto then some other brands, especially in the bigger sizes. It's another thing to say Proto sockets are in another league or flat out better then brand ***. A statement like that requires hard proof, not anecdotal evidence based on your limited experience.

My opinion - We have a lot of good options available to us. I have personally owned and\or used Snap-On, MAC, Craftsman\Armstrong, Wright and older (20+ years) SK. In my experience, just about any US made socket will work just fine if used properly and the chances of any of them breaking is pretty slim. Can it happen? Sure, even SO break from time to time but it's not common.

So if they are all up to the task, how do you choose? Price, availability, selection, warranty, etc.. I just wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the shininess of the chrome or even broach depth. Hell, broach depth wasn't even something I ever noticed until I started hanging around this site (meaning it's really not the important 99% of the time).

Just my $.02

 

[shoturtle]

The simple fact is if diy and auto. Armstrong, Cman's and all the other brand will do the job just the same. Brand preference is personal. SK has a QC issue, they have a very mix bag of tools from when they were about to go under, when they were viable and under new ownership. They are working on it, and I am sure they will work it out. My point is that people do dump on craftsman/danaher/apex allot, and do not realized it is the same socket as armstrong. And has the same level of reliability. As they are mil spec just like the armstrong.

I pick the proto, over the 3 listed for the simple fact it is the pretties chrome of the 3, external chrome is excellent. I can care less out internal chrome, as the bolt head will pretty much damage them if you use it. So the internal chrome debate is a moot point.

Also all thin wall socket fail no matter what brand. And the I have a box of crack sockets in my office from Armstrong, Williams, Proto, Snap On, Westward and SK.

When it comes to industrial high torque application that is fact that the big players are Proto, Wright, Apex, and Snap On. Not all companies play in the big industrial end. And it is simple fact is SK does not play in the industrial level sockets. They were never design to handle the torque of modern bolt superstructure construction. The other companies have whole divisions focus on that.

 

[Mr Ratchet]

When it comes to industrial high torque application that is fact that the big players are Proto, Wright, Apex, and Snap On. Not all companies play in the big industrial end. And it is simple fact is SK does not play in the industrial level sockets. They were never design to handle the torque of modern bolt superstructure construction. The other companies have whole divisions focus on that.

You keep on forgetting Williams. They are the number 2 brand along with Proto for industrial use in my area.

 

[shoturtle]

You keep on forgetting Williams. They are the number 2 brand along with Proto for industrial use in my area.

Williams is snap on's industrial division. But they carry some non industrial grade stuff as well. But their us made stuff is pretty good as well. Their Taiwan made stuff is prettier.

 

[cbracer]

OK, so I contacted all three companies about warranty. My experience was this:

Armstrong: because I was trying to warranty tools purchased new, they would not even consider letting me send them back in. They were h_ll bent on forcing me to go back to the place I bought them. When I tried to explain that I'd have to send the whole set back they didn't care. There was no way I could get them to warranty directly 4 sockets individually or the set together. So essentially you're left with only dealing through the person you bought them from. I'm sure as others have continually called that at some point you might find someone willing to do something, but the lady I got sure wasn't.

Proto: you can call all you want, but they are simply going to ask you to mail the tools in. No problem, I did. But you have to pay for shipping them in.

SK: Wonderfully helpful. Sent me a pre-paid label to send in the sockets, and said they would send out new ones right away. can't ask for anything better than that.

Now if you have a truck that comes to your shop, this isn't a worry for you. But for those home gamers out there, SK wins for warranty customer care.

 

[cgv69]

OK, so I contacted all three companies about warranty. My experience was this:

Now that's good info there. Please report back once you get the replacements and let us know how they turn out?

Thanks

 

[buening]

Wow I'm surprised by Armstrong and their warranty process. I knew S-K's customer service was top notch and one of the main reasons I've been buying more and more.

 

[cbracer]

Warranty Update:

Armstrong - had to send whole set back to place where I got it. Would not deal with me directly.

SK - Seemed really nice on the phone and thought they would send the replacements out right away. Didn't, but did send me a shipping label. Replacements were received over 3 weeks later and some had the same issues. So much for all of you who think "new stock" is what you can get or any better. It isn't. The 9mm broach is still not fully drilled out, though this doesn't effect use I suppose. 10mm looked better than original. Now they're up for sale in the classifieds. Probably the most perfect set you can find.....

Proto - Had to pay for shipping, replacements came just under 3 weeks later. No issues with new ones.

 

[bob15]

Send me those sockets and give me a couple weeks and they will be scratched and have grease in areas that you would never get out, unless you put in a parts washer. Use them for what they are, tools. Or do you just like having every type of socket in you tool box, 6 and 12 pt from 1/4"-2 3/8" in 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 & 3/4" drives?

These are sockets, which are tools. Your comparison is closer to a woman shopping for a diamond than how good the socket is.

I have 40 year old SK and Billings sockets. Do I care if it has a offset sizing stamp? No. Do I care that it doesn't crack at 150 foot pounds, you're damn right I care. I have Bonney wrenches with the name in two different heights. If they were still in business, would i send them back? No. As long as the wrench does it's job, who cares.

bob

 

[cbracer]

Or do you just like having every type of socket in you tool box, 6 and 12 pt from 1/4"-2 3/8" in 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 & 3/4" drives?

I have 40 year old SK and Billings sockets. Do I care if it has a offset sizing stamp? No. Do I care that it doesn't crack at 150 foot pounds, you're damn right I care. I have Bonney wrenches with the name in two different heights. If they were still in business, would i send them back? No. As long as the wrench does it's job, who cares.

So what tools do you own? Surely not Snap-On based on your comments.

If all you care about is not cracking at 150 foot pounds then you might as well stop wasting your money on good tools! Buy taiwan or china made stuff. I'm sure any of their 3/8" sockets can handle more than 150 ft lbs! I'm sure you have other reasons for not buying china stuff than being strong enough for your jobs? no?

I don't have many tools, just enough to do what I need which is mainly work on my metric Porsche. Grease is fine, but rust doesn't belong on a car or a tool. And if you work in the places I do, you'd know that all tools get wiped down before being put away and rust isn't allowed.

 

[OEXL16B]

These are sockets, which are tools. Your comparison is closer to a woman shopping for a diamond than how good the socket is.

What you fail to realize it that some of us don't give a damn about diamonds, but we expect our tools to be manufactured to the highest standards of quality and cosmetic perfection. People like you will never understand that.

 

[bob15]

So what tools do you own? Surely not Snap-On based on your comments.

If all you care about is not cracking at 150 foot pounds then you might as well stop wasting your money on good tools! Buy taiwan or china made stuff. I'm sure any of their 3/8" sockets can handle more than 150 ft lbs! I'm sure you have other reasons for not buying china stuff than being strong enough for your jobs? no?

I don't have many tools, just enough to do what I need which is mainly work on my metric Porsche. Grease is fine, but rust doesn't belong on a car or a tool. And if you work in the places I do, you'd know that all tools get wiped down before being put away and rust isn't allowed.

Tools I own, wrench and socket sets from: KD, Blackhawk, Snap-On, Bonney, Mac, Williams, Wright, SK, Proto, Armstrong and OTC (yes they used to make sockets and wrenches). Some are at work, some in my chainsaw shop and some are in my main toolbox and some are in my house.

You can wipe a tool down all you want, how do you get the grease and oil out of the socket or wrench lobes? Use pipe cleaner? What job would you do that wouldn't allow the sockets you showed because of the rust? And by looking at the pics it could even be rust from airborne metal shaving that collected inside the socket. If rust on a tool isn't allow, chances are the job requires either satin or industrial finish.

You use them on a metric Porsche, big deal. I use them on farm equipment, farm tractors, snowmobile, chainsaws and an American muscle car, among other things. Who cares? They will get scratched, dinged, worn and sometimes abused. Your comparison just shows what it the prettiest. Should I send my Snappy ratchets back because the chrome it worn and scratched because of use?

A torque to yield test would be a better comparison than how pretty the chrome is.....

bob

 

[bob15]

What you fail to realize it that some of us don't give a damn about diamonds, but we expect our tools to be manufactured to the highest standards of quality and cosmetic perfection. People like you will never understand that.

The last thing I bought off the snappy truck was the 3/4" drive ratchet head, breaker head, and the 18" & 36" handles. I didn't bring them into the shop and examine them under a magnifying glass to see if the detentes are identical and make sure the stampings were perfect. I went back inside the shop and used them.

Use the tool daily for a few days and then see how "perfect" the tool is then.

bob

 

[MarkH]

here we go again. It seems we have two groups. How polished or how used.

For each we have our specs. Mine is they take big things apart and back together to keep us in business. Amazingly in the era of polish and we have had multiple return items for polish errors there are those like me who the raised panel and satin like wright uses survive better. After a day in a machines tool box the others looked like a polished turd.

As for the rest all I want to know is what happens when I take a 5 ft fence post tool and put it on the end of the ratchet or wrench. Others will never do that an polish them to boot.

 

[thesilverone]

the tool polishers are getting upset

 

[Fedwrench]

Come on, you guys are taking this socket comparison stuff waay too seriously.

Buy a rack of each and use them!!!! see what breaks and what doesn't. Buy more of the stuff that doesn't break.

Scratches, nicks, and a little rust to a degree are Patina!! Like callouses and scars on a mechanics hands/arms. Remember chicks dig scars. fasteners don't care how shiny the socket is that touches them.

I know this is America and it's more important to look good than to perform well but, that doesn't apply to tools.

Tools are meant to be used and abused, not participate in a concours de elegance for chrome.

Now get your damn tools dirty by using the hell out of them, and have a great 4th of July.

 

[NC-Fordguy]

Come on, you guys are taking this socket comparison stuff waay too seriously.

Buy a rack of each and use them!!!! see what breaks and what doesn't. Buy more of the stuff that doesn't break.

Scratches, nicks, and a little rust to a degree are Patina!! Like callouses and scars on a mechanics hands/arms. Remember chicks dig scars. fasteners don't care how shiny the socket is that touches them.

I know this is America and it's more important to look good than to perform well but, that doesn't apply to tools.

Tools are meant to be used and abused, not participate in a concours de elegance for chrome.

Now get your damn tools dirty by using the hell out of them, and have a great 4th of July.

One of the better posts on this forum

 

[Skin]

theres two types of people.
Those who work with their tools.
Those who play with their tools.

 

[NC-Fordguy]

theres two types of people.
Those who work with their tools.
Those who play with their tools.

I heard it was 3 types of people

Those who make things happen
Those who watch things happen
Those who wonder what the f**k happened

 

[cbracer]

You use them on a metric Porsche, big deal. I use them on farm equipment, farm tractors, snowmobile, chainsaws and an American muscle car, among other things. Who cares?

A torque to yield test would be a better comparison than how pretty the chrome is.....
bob

I never wanted to revisit this, I was only posting again to follow up with warranty experiences.

Sure a torque test would be nice, but only if the sockets you buy won't hold up to what you use the tool for. Otherwise, its just another waste of a test.

The whole point of my comparison was to buy some reasonably priced sockets and see how crappy American made stuff really is. My point is that American made stuff with the exception of Snap-On really can't hold a stick to stuff made outside the US when it comes to quality of finish. And when the asian made tools are strong enough for the job, I can see why stuff isn't made here anymore. I don't care how shiny it is. Every tool will get scratched in use. But if they apply a finish to prevent rust, and it doesn't do the job when brand stick'in new, then that's a failure.

 

[PaulsGarage]

cbracer, Thank you for an objective and honest evaluation and warranty feedback, despite all the noise in here I did find some useful info.

 

[MarkH]

Seen this too many times. First we had cheap tools from a country, looked and were cheap, then we good better looking tools from a country and prices went up. We still broke them, finally we good and good looking tools from a country but by that time usually I was paying the same amount for the tools as a US source and if I was still buying them more than I pay now.

The game just goes on with new players looking at the tools from a new country and over time learning the same lessons.

 

[seanh303]

I love reading these threads whenever they come up. There really is some practicality on either side of the debate, but as far as I'm concerned, I totally get where he's coming from. What the hell are we paying the premium price for if it's not a premium product? It's EASY to spend $10+ bucks a socket even for used SK, Proto, Armstrong, etc. Retail price? Sheeaat. Listen guys, the days of the affordable U.S.A. Craftsman are over. The last reasonable American tool makers are exporting. It's pretty much support communism or pay out the nose. Hey, we ALL have our reasons not to buy china...fact is, they're able to crank out quality consistently enough to get the job done now. I'll definitely spend 10-times the money to buy American, and there's just no way it can be 10 times as good, but hey, being slightly better (or even at least as good!) isn't too much to ask I don't think. We're all dropping loads of cash on these tools, and yeah, it's pretty sad that the quality you see on the shelves is so sorry. It's not a stretch to say you could probably do better yourself, so most of todays mega brands started out as micro-manufacturers here in the states (i.e. Armstrong started by 2 brothers).

Now honestly, who here thinks that this $150 Snap On ratchet

is going to turn a bolt ANY better than this $12.00 Harbor Freight ratchet?

Nobody here is going to convince me that the tools you're buying are 12-times more indestructable than what they sell at HF. Everyone is unanimous that there is no practical engineering data available to demonstrate that the Snappy above will last a minute longer than even one of those HF ratchets under responsible use, let alone 12 of them. Getting into the debate between American toolmakers is splitting hairs. Hell, even the advantages of product design only last long enough for them to be suitably copied (about 10 minutes?) Look, what the OP was talking about when he made this thread is the same thing that leads you to that tool truck to pay full retail for that brand-new Snap On ratchet. It DOESN'T make you a better mechanic, or handsome or by any means rich...it makes you proud. It's pride of ownership at the end of the day that's the single most compelling factor in the purchase, and we're hoping to buy in to the same pride of ownership the manufacturer has in their brand. When a single SO ratchet costs what a whole CM ratchet set does, you can damn well bet that SO ratchet is gonna be flawless. If you're buying it anywhere but a garage sale, you're paying for a whole lot more than functionality. As far as getting the job done, there's suitable alternatives at a fraction of the cost. And as far as being the toughest hunk a metal around, well there's already heavy-weight title owners that have been bustin' bolts in for years and it shows, but they'll do the job as well or better than anything money can buy nowadays. Point is, there are already proven designs from the golden years, lots of those tools still kickin' around much cheaper and likely much better than money can buy today, but that $150 ratchet gives you the satisfaction of knowing you've bought the best recently made tool on the planet, from a company that takes pride in their craft just like you do in yours, with complete confidence that it will live up to your every expectation day in and day out. It's a different thing when a machine makes the whole damn thing and your brand won't invest 10 seconds in just having a look to see how it turned out. So damn right man, my broaching should be flawless, chrome even and shiny, and tolerances tight. I want to be proud of my tools and the work I do with them.

So speaking of that work, hey, there's LOTS of different typs of work. Considering this forum is GARAGEjournal...it's pretty safe to say a good number of the folks here are wrenching on motors, whether pro (like me ) or pro-fit like a bunch of you. Farm tools, industrial tools, the kit on my HMMWV, they've gotta withstand the punishment of the elements, abuse, and perform no matter what when the time counts. In the shop, you've probably got about 20 different tools that can do 90% of the job about the same. If you're really turnin' out work, you probably do what you gotta do ta get through the day, have a happy customer, and get home to a cold one. The sh#t's gotta be tough enough to handle it day in day out more than anything, and clean up well enough at the end of the day ta keep the boss happy and quick enough for you to get the hell outta there. $140 might seem like a lot at first but is a helluva lot cheaper than the gas you'd spend on those 12 trips to HF to swap a busted ratchet. You spend the money once, and bank on it for years (or at least 'til the tool truck rolls through again).

Now the serious hobbyist such as the classic car builder or performance tuner is moving more toward the precision and care required in aviation. Being clean is one of the most important things. Starting out with flawless shiny tools makes you a lot more concious about being careful and staying clean, and like aviation, specs of dirt, chunks of grease, or a dropped washer can end your project a lot differently than you imagined. I personally have my beater tools (the Cman's) that I use to get dirty on the tear down or when travelling where they'll likely take a little extra abuse or risk of loss/theft (like at the junkyard). But once everythings back from the machine shop all sandblasted and shiny, when those bearings come out of the plastic and those gaskets are about to get their final torque...that's where the shiny chrome comes in. Hey, for one, I want the garage to look nice, and some of those shiny wrenches are just my type of art. They each have their place they come out of, they start out clean, the job is clean going back together, they get put away clean, and I stare at 'em with admiration anxious for the next chance to put them to good use. And when it's all going back together, the only grease and grime I want around is the cmans soakin' in the solvent tank.

There's a reason why most wrenches above a certain size are tough satin-chrome finish. Maybe cause it's cheaper than polish...but I think it's because those larger tools are built for larger, dirtier jobs. But on the final assembly of your project, whether finishing up a days work or a year's project, from valve-cover gaskets to main bearings and white moly...being careful with your shiny tools means being careful all around. A nice, clean finish is really what it's all about.

 

[Skin]

 

[cbracer]

I never wanted to do the whole asia versus US made, but it's too hard to avoid. I just want US made companies to make good stuff and stop turning out tools that look like **** when we aren't paying for ****.