Spool gun worth it?

[davewo]

Fellas,

Does anyone have opinions on buying a spool gun attachment for welding aluminum if one already has a tig machine?

I have a Hobart 210 MVP and weld steel almost everyday for my own projects and side jobs. I also have an AHP tig machine but am a long way from consistently making nice welds. I've also found that welding aluminum is much more difficult than steel.

In a couple weeks I have to make aluminum frames for my new basement windows. I don't want to learn how to tig on these and botch them or make scrap - I just need to get them done. The design and execution will occur rapidly. So hence my question - is a spool gun worth it?

 

[AkFordGuy]

If you don't have some scrap to practice on, chances are you're going to ruin them with aluminum wire just as quick as you will with TIG. Aluminum wire is worlds apart from steel.

 

[mike13u]

Its worth it if you need speed. But, you will spend the same amount of time with set-up and learning that you would just learning how to TIG it with what you have. If you have a couple weeks, all you need to do is practice. You should be able to get acceptable TIG welds in that amount of time. How many amps is the AHP?

 

[ilovevocs]

Most guys I know that really see allot of use out of a spool gun are either building boats, trailers, or ornamental / architectural work. I own a spool gun and don't find myself using it nearly as often as I thought I would; planning to build a small jet boat once I get the homestead buttoned up for winter so that should change.

Curious about the design of your windows and how / if you intend to achieve a thermal break in addition to the detailing of the glass to the sash / frame.

 

[sberry]

If you don't have a tig as spool is a great azz saver. Its great for speed and it has replaced my tig. You already have a bottle so some expense is already taken but I will agree, the tig you already own will be easier with less finish from a new operator.
Yes a guy can find alum to weld but the need for general use is relatively minor in most cases, its really a steel world and we make 999 steel welds to 1 alum, maybe more. I could count on fingers the times I really needed to weld alum in general work over last 30 yrs not including irrigation that most don't have.

 

[kkroger]

A good machine with a push pull gun is AWESOME, I dislike most affordable spool guns with a passion!!!! might just be ME, but a good machine with a push pull is awesome...

 

[Heel2toe]

What is a push pull spool gun? Im contemplating picking up a spoolgun for my Lincoln Powermig 210 MP but Im hesitant for a few reasons. I'd really like the ability to weld AL since I continue to crank the end tank on my intercooler and would be useful for fabricating some parts for my car.

Im still learning to weld steel so I have a ways to go before I try and make the jump to AL but its something I think about. One of the main things holding me up is that I often read that some spoolguns are a joke and are a pain in the *** and never work well. Does anyone here have experience with the spoolgun on the Lincoln?

The thing that kills me is that I'd eventually like to learn to tig as well. I can get a torch and pedal and other accessories for the Lincoln but its only a DC machine so I cant tig AL with it. So then it seems that by the time I end up buying a spoolgun as well as the tig setup I might be better off with a dedicated tig machine.

 

[AkFordGuy]

There is no such thing as a "push pull spool gun". You can either use a push-pull gun for aluminum, or a spool gun.

In the professional fabrication world, push pull guns are the standard. Spool guns ****. Right now I'm working with a boat shop building custom aluminum boats, and that's all we use is push pull guns. We have a bunch of Cobras, and a few Miller XRs.

A spool gun is exactly what you think it is. You mount a small spool of wire in the gun, and then a set of drive rolls pushes the wire 6-8" out the end of the gun and you weld. The problem with this is that spool guns are unwieldy, and 1-2 lb spools of wire are stupidly expensive.

A push pull gun takes big spools, mounted in a cabinet. It works just like a regular MIG gun. It pushes the wire through a plastic liner, out to the gun. It has a set of drive rolls in the handle which pull the wire, helping prevent birds-nests. The slave motor in the cabinet is a very low-torque motor, which pushes the wire just a little faster than the main drive motor pulls it.

 

[sberry]

The little ones are not push pull, the Linc will work.

 

[MoonRise]

What is a push pull spool gun?

Not quite right there.

There is a spool gun.

And then there is a push-pull torch.

Two different things.

A spool gun is a device that has a small spool of wire and a short (often just about a foot of feed path) pretty straight feed path from the spool to the contact tip. Much bigger and bulkier than just a 'plain' MIG torch, but trying to feed 10+ feet of small diameter (0.035) 'soft' floppy aluminum wire through a 'regular' MIG torch cable is often an exercise in frustration.

A push-pull gun uses the machine regular drive rolls to do the 'push' of the wire (just like normal), but also has a small 'pull' motor and drive rolls in the torch handle up near the contact tip. A bit bigger than a 'plain' torch handle, but nowhere near as big or bulky as a spool gun.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/guns/Pages/spool-push-pull.aspx

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...oolAir-Cooled(LincolnElectric)&producttype=gt

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...mPROALG225A12(LincolnElectric)&producttype=gt

 

[davewo]

Most guys I know that really see allot of use out of a spool gun are either building boats, trailers, or ornamental / architectural work. I own a spool gun and don't find myself using it nearly as often as I thought I would; planning to build a small jet boat once I get the homestead buttoned up for winter so that should change.

Curious about the design of your windows and how / if you intend to achieve a thermal break in addition to the detailing of the glass to the sash / frame.

Thanks, guys, for the replies. I'm that much closer to buying a spool gun. The correct model is $195 on Amazon right now. I've watched some videos and people seem to like it.

As for my windows: I'll be replacing the 1960's all aluminum ones with mid-line vinyl, as well as enlarging them. The basic plan is to mortar in-place angled alum frames and silicone glue the vinyl in-place from the interior. The alum will only touch the silicone and mortar and will be at the exterior of the building.

 

[kkroger]

A $195 spool gun is going to be pretty crappy to be honest, the one that goes with my MILLER Matic is $300 and it is ****...

 

[Todd.Brock]

There is no such thing as a "push pull spool gun". You can either use a push-pull gun for aluminum, or a spool gun.

In the professional fabrication world, push pull guns are the standard. Spool guns ****. Right now I'm working with a boat shop building custom aluminum boats, and that's all we use is push pull guns. We have a bunch of Cobras, and a few Miller XRs.

A spool gun is exactly what you think it is. You mount a small spool of wire in the gun, and then a set of drive rolls pushes the wire 6-8" out the end of the gun and you weld. The problem with this is that spool guns are unwieldy, and 1-2 lb spools of wire are stupidly expensive.

A push pull gun takes big spools, mounted in a cabinet. It works just like a regular MIG gun. It pushes the wire through a plastic liner, out to the gun. It has a set of drive rolls in the handle which pull the wire, helping prevent birds-nests. The slave motor in the cabinet is a very low-torque motor, which pushes the wire just a little faster than the main drive motor pulls it.

Thank you for the explanation of the push pull gun. I now understand what they are!

Here is a little inspiration from Claude if you haven't seen this before.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=189747

 

[Skyline]

A $195 spool gun is going to be pretty crappy to be honest, the one that goes with my MILLER Matic is $300 and it is ****...

The one with my Milermatic sells for more than four times that...but the difference is the number of amps it can run.

 

[kkroger]

The one with my Milermatic sells for more than four times that...but the difference is the number of amps it can run.

Yeah that Hobart POS is the same exact thing as my Miller POS... so no there is not an amperage difference... I have a 211 and the spoolgun for it is the same as the **** for the Hobart...

LOTS of problems with them and both are junk...

 

[davewo]

I don't doubt low cost spool guns can be crappy, but that is what's available for the Miller/Hobart 200 amp machines.

What are problems I should expect with these guns?

 

[Heel2toe]

Thanks for the additional info guys. So I now understand that there are better setups the push pull for example that acts like a "normal" mig gun vs having a spool which can be cumbersome and awkward in tight areas. And I'd guess the combination of pushing and pulling helps to eliminate bird nesting. And then there is the added benefits of being able to buy much larger spools at a discounted rate which is also beneficial to someone who uses it everyday as their profession.

However, for someone like myself of the OP where we don't need the absolute best because it would be overkill given the amount of times it will be used would you still say spoolguns ****? Im not looking to do anything big or structural more like basic jobs various brackets that I'd prefer to make out of AL and weld things like radiators intercoolers oil catch cans etc which is all thin gauge stuff?

Say I want a track toy...yeah I'd love a 458 but its unrealistic for me so something along the lines of a Miata would work, I suppose. Does that make Miatas crappy?

 

[kkroger]

Feed problems mainly... too much space between the feed roll and the 6" piece of liner... Burnback, Contact tips are not the same as regular tips by the way... so buy a few of those. it will still birdsnest...

 

[kkroger]

Thanks for the additional info guys. So I now understand that there are better setups the push pull for example that acts like a "normal" mig gun vs having a spool which can be cumbersome and awkward in tight areas. And I'd guess the combination of pushing and pulling helps to eliminate bird nesting. And then there is the added benefits of being able to buy much larger spools at a discounted rate which is also beneficial to someone who uses it everyday as their profession.

However, for someone like myself of the OP where we don't need the absolute best because it would be overkill given the amount of times it will be used would you still say spoolguns ****? Im not looking to do anything big or structural more like basic jobs various brackets that I'd prefer to make out of AL and weld things like radiators intercoolers oil catch cans etc which is all thin gauge stuff?

Say I want a track toy...yeah I'd love a 458 but its unrealistic for me so something along the lines of a Miata would work, I suppose. Does that make Miatas crappy?

the spoolguns in question are ****, you won't really be welding "Thin Guage" with one, it will burn through, for that you REALLY need TIG, you won't weld a radiator with a spoolgun... or even a push pull, that would be a tailor made TIG job.

if you don't know how or have never DONE it you would be better off taking it to a pro than buying a spool gun... for the couple hundred for the spool gun your radiator bung could be welded on and leak free in less time and money than it would take to get used to your spoolgun and finally burn up your project....

 

[bimmer1980]

OP-- How thick is the aluminum that you will be welding??

How many weld joints will you be doing? What does the joint look like??

In my experience, the spool gun is better at thicker material and good joint layout. The Tig will excel at heat management and controlling the weld bead, especially in thinner material.

Frankly, unless you have a large quantity of welds in 3/16" aluminum or thicker, I would stick with the TIG. Watch some videos and then practice. Learn how to modulate the heat and work the fill rod into the puddle. Practice, steady hands and some patience will go a long ways....

Don't forget to properly prep the joint to help produce a nice bead. It has to be clean. Do you have a dedicated stainless steel brush for prep'ing the aluminum before each weld pass?

 

[Heel2toe]

the spoolguns in question are ****, you won't really be welding "Thin Guage" with one, it will burn through, for that you REALLY need TIG, you won't weld a radiator with a spoolgun... or even a push pull, that would be a tailor made TIG job.

if you don't know how or have never DONE it you would be better off taking it to a pro than buying a spool gun... for the couple hundred for the spool gun your radiator bung could be welded on and leak free in less time and money than it would take to get used to your spoolgun and finally burn up your project....

OK so the burning through and inability to really control heat is something that makes sense so I can see that as a valid argument.

But when you talk about being better off from an economic perspective there is eventually going to be a crossover point. I've had my friggin intercooler crack of me 3 times now at about $100 a pop each time. I can get a spoolgun and a tank or argon for around the same price.

But taking cost out of the equation there is a price to pay for convenience. I did a boost leak test Sunday found the crack popped off the intercooler and brought it to my guy Monday, he was busy and didnt get it back to me until Thursday night I threw it on my car Friday and raced Saturday. Yeah it worked out fine but if I could have welded it up myself that would been so much more convenient.

But back to your point if I will only burn through on thin gauge stuff then the spoolgun is out of the picture anyway which means I need to pick up a Tig machine. Im loving my Powermig 210 but the multiprocess aspect now seems like a gimick. Luckily I bought it for the MIG aspect so Im not too upset about that.

 

[kkroger]

OK so the burning through and inability to really control heat is something that makes sense so I can see that as a valid argument.

But when you talk about being better off from an economic perspective there is eventually going to be a crossover point. I've had my friggin intercooler crack of me 3 times now at about $100 a pop each time. I can get a spoolgun and a tank or argon for around the same price.

But taking cost out of the equation there is a price to pay for convenience. I did a boost leak test Sunday found the crack popped off the intercooler and brought it to my guy Monday, he was busy and didnt get it back to me until Thursday night I threw it on my car Friday and raced Saturday. Yeah it worked out fine but if I could have welded it up myself that would been so much more convenient.

But back to your point if I will only burn through on thin gauge stuff then the spoolgun is out of the picture anyway which means I need to pick up a Tig machine. Im loving my Powermig 210 but the multiprocess aspect now seems like a gimick. Luckily I bought it for the MIG aspect so Im not too upset about that.

I keep finding "Multi" machines to be less than ideal at anything they do... I don't know that machine but the multiprocess machines I have had contact with are just not really good at any of the processes... I don't know if that box can do AC TIG pretty much necessary for Aluminum, if you continue to have the problems with Cracking on the welds on your intercooler with a "Pro" doing the work seek a different Pro to do the work. something is not right...

 

[Heel2toe]

Yeah I mean I think the concept of being multiprocess means that it needs to give up something in order to be able to do it all at a given price point. Everything is a compromise in life. No unfortunately its a DC only TIG hence the spoolgun idea which seems to quickly be shot down. But like I said I bought it because I was in the market for MIG and was pretty set on buying a MM211 but the Lincoln popped up on CL essentially brand new with wires tips cart bottle etc. and local for a good price so I went for it. I think its well regarded as a MIG but I'd imagine leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to TIG and I suppose the spoolgun.

The intercooler repeatably cracking is probably an issue on my end honestly. The stock setup has nice rubber isolaters that mount it to the chassis and my setup is hard mounted. So I suspect that the repeated vibrations are causing the cracks. And the cracks have occurred in a different place every time, not just where they welded last.

 

[kkroger]

So like every other racer I know... instead of FIXING it right lets just duct tape it and let er rip tater chip! Putting Shock Isolators on it would be easy but instead lets keep burning on it until it is just one big solid weld... with cracks... LOL!!!! I rewired a buddies race car the other week, cut out unused wire for about an hour, replaced major leads with new that had **** splices 1" from the previous **** Splice that was 3" from the termination.... and all it did was run across the core support from front left to Front Right...

 

[mike13u]

A $195 spool gun is going to be pretty crappy to be honest, the one that goes with my MILLER Matic is $300 and it is ****...

Not sure which one that is but I have a much more expensive spoolgun with my Millermatic 252 that handles business

 

[BigMike782]

Spend 200.00 on paying someone to weld aluminum when you need it done......then spend another 200.00 the same way and you will have saved money over buying a cheap piece of ****.

What do the make for 200 amp machines? for a Millermatic 212 they make the Spoolmatic 30A.

 

[600SL]

Well I'm not an expert and I only had mine for a few months and only tried it once. The problem I find with it is the first 1 inch of weld takes a beating and looks like **** until you get the AL hot. It would be great if I had a 12" weld but I typically have 2" or less welds. Since I have a TIG machine I actually sorry I wasted the money on it. It was a $400 option with the Lincoln MP210.

 

[sberry]

Well I'm not an expert and I only had mine for a few months and only tried it once. The problem I find with it is the first 1 inch of weld takes a beating and looks like **** until you get the AL hot. It would be great if I had a 12" weld but I typically have 2" or less welds. Since I have a TIG machine I actually sorry I wasted the money on it. It was a $400 option with the Lincoln MP210.

I can see that. You already have a way to do it, no need for another method. Tig is very forgiving but the wire is really highly disciplined to be clean and neat.

 

[koditten]

I don't know. Ive had my 30a spool gun for 20 years. I'm not sure I would pony up the $1300 now if I knew then what I know now.

I think I've used it 5 times. I've actually been thinking about building a drift boat to justify its presence.

 

[chillrich]

One potential solution is to use a standard MIG gun with short line (6ft) and a brand new teflon liner. Spend some time getting your feed tension set up and keep your line as straight as possible, you should be able to MIG aluminum. I was going to try this , bought the teflon liner off of ebay but ended up going TIG with AC and HF start. Only regret with my TIG purchase is that I didn't by a pulse machine and the thin gauge is tricky for me without it.

 

[koditten]

Gonna need drive wheels with a knurled texture to grab the wire, too.

 

[rpcraft]

I think the biggest problem i have ever had with them is just how unweildy they are and how much they can cuase you to do some bad welding. I've personally avoided them forever and have put off my desire to weld aluminum specifically because of those issues. I'm hopefully moving to a house (from an apartment) before too long and the property I've been looking at has a nice shop set up on it so I've promised myself to blow the budget on a couple of items I am long over due for (plasma cutter, tig welder, and a good quality compressor that will allow for running cut off tools well). I'll consider it a house warming present to myself, then somewhere down the road I'll probably have to focus on getting a fridge and stove/oven, lol...

 

[AkFordGuy]

Gonna need drive wheels with a knurled texture to grab the wire, too.

Knurled drive rolls are not needed, though they do help.

The Miller push-pull feeders use knurled drive rolls, the Cobras do not. They are the two big players in the aluminum fabrication world.

 

[davewo]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I have the spool gun "saved for later" on Amazon, but for the time being I'll keep tigin' on.

 

[kkroger]

One rule with a Spool Gun or Push Pull gun and pretty much ALL aluminum welding is ALWAYS PUSH, never PULL....

 

[Toolhorder]

Don't listen to the negative comments. I bought a Miller 211 and was on the fence about the spool gun and I had the money at the time my wife said just buy it because you won't have the money when you need it. I ended up getting it and awhile later I bought an old Toyota pickup that the timing chain guide broke and the chain ate through the cover causing a coolant leak.
I ended up cleaning the timing cover really well and spool gun welded it. It was cast aluminum too and it worked fine. It's not the tool it's the guy using it.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

For what it's worth, I have a Miller 252 and a Miller 30A spool gun. I'm still learning things about using both. Thin Al with a SG is a real steep learning curve. I asked in here and learned enough to weld what I wanted to and it looks pretty good for someone that's never welded AL before, it works. I'd like to have a TIG rig just to see if I can do it, or do it better.

IMO, cheap SG's are like cheap tools, you get what you pay for. I know several "mechanics" that get buy with cheap tools MOST of the time. It's as much the operator as the tool.

I missed a deal on scratch start TIG rig, I figure I can get my feet wet with it, then step up to full TIG rig if I like it.

If there's a local community college or vocational center near you that teaches welding, go talk to them and maybe take a class.

 

[koditten]

This thread made me pull out my 30A SG. I haven't welded aluminum in 10 years.

First pic was the initial weld. I knew the Aaron needed to travel the full 20' of hose and I had no idea on my settings. Looks like I have early onset of Parkinson's disease.

Second pic was after making adjustments to machine and technique. The welds was a little hot, but with a slight increase of speed, the results were were just fine.

A bit more practice and ill be happy.

 

[vtec?lol]

You'll need to really practice more than anything. Break out a pen and paper and buy a few scraps of different ga aluminum. Start noting down the amperage settings. Mig is super easy and convenient because it puts everything you need in one hand. Tig requires proper tools and assist. Once you get the hang of all that it's a breeze.

 

[n20junkie]

I have a nice 30A miller gun for my 252. We have made some bigger aluminum stuff like trailers and is a great tool, but for $1,000 its more than most guys need for garage projects.

Unless you plan on laying down a lot of aluminum, save your money for tools you will use more often.