d42jeep
Well-known member
I don’t collect Bonney tools but I found this PWA 1394 marked 3/8” drive ratchet on eBay and thought it would be a good addition to my NAF box. 
-Don
-Don
Spreading the Bonney affliction!
- Thread starter bonneyman
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Nice!I don’t collect Bonney tools but I found this PWA 1394 marked 3/8” drive ratchet on eBay and thought it would be a good addition to my NAF box.
-Don
How does it function?
d42jeep
Well-known member
I haven’t had much of a chance to try it out yet but I will tomorrow.
-Don
-Don
outofbounds
Well-known member
Refer back to page 18 ref#699 for details.
1950-ish Chrysler torque-ing wrench. I think the length and twist are to allow it to flex, so an experienced mechanic could apply correct torque by feel (and not, as I originally suggested in that post, to extend its reach). I don’t think this relatively inexpensive design lasted long, as readable and then callibrated torque wrenches were more precise.
d42jeep
Well-known member
I would call it kind of notchy. A squirt of 3 in 1 oil in the top hole helped matters a little but I wouldn’t consider it smooth. Seems perfectly functional though.
-Don
An interesting pair of DOEs. Both marked Mack (Truck), with “R” date codes (DR & GR), but both the embedded-shield logo and USS/OC/SAE fractional inches marks indicate the No37 is from 1926, while the plain “BONNEY” logo on the S-wrench indicates 1940.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
FWIW, LS, I have two (2) Bonney Mack wrenches in my Mack tools collection, posted in the 'Big Mack' thread, here, and they follow the same pattern: the big *** DOE engineer's wrench is from the 1920's and the "S" wrench is from the 1940's.
But then… Here are four S-wrenches purchased together in similar condition from one vendor. All four IQ date codes, but two have the embedded-shield logo with USS/OC/SAE sizes and two have the plain-BONNEY logo with fractional-across-flats sizes.
Obviously, the sizes are stamped in a separate, later process from the forged-in date codes, so maybe Bonney logo and size stamps are not to be trusted when identifying which 14-year cycle they’re from?
Obviously, the sizes are stamped in a separate, later process from the forged-in date codes, so maybe Bonney logo and size stamps are not to be trusted when identifying which 14-year cycle they’re from?
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
My first reply, to your first pair of wrenches, was Mack-centric, more of a remark on it looking like they made engineers wrenches for Mack kits early, and "S" wrenches for Mack kits later.
Maybe it's just my limited grey cells, LS, but I'm not seeing anything about those four "S" wrenches that casts any doubt on dating schemes.
Reading forged-in "IQ" codes on wrenches with forged-in CHROME-VANADIUM (CV) markings and stamped with the Bonney embedded shield logos, nut and bolt standard size markings (i.e., the 1081-A and 1077-C) as 1925 is perfectly consistent with the thinking that they used that size marking convention and logo up through the late 1920's/1930 or so.
Likewise, reading forged-in "IQ" codes on wrenches with forged-in CHROME-VANADIUM (CV) markings and stamped with the plain Bonney name logo, no embedded shield, milled opening sizes (i.e., the 1079-S and 1077-S) as 1939 is perfectly consistent with the thinking that they changed to the new sizing convention and the plain name logo in the late 1920's/1930 or so. They were still using those CHROME-VANADIUM (CV) dies well up through 1942 and we even see some 1943's sneak in before the WPB extended grace period ended.
Granted, the earlier wrenches being in good, clean, rust-free condition and happening to also be "S" wrenches with "IQ" codes coming from the same vendor does look deceptively set-ish, but it tell us nothing empirical about the origins of any of the wrenches or their provenance, and doesn't break any logic of the dating scheme.
If you're suggesting that all the wrenches could've been forged at the same time, i.e., in 1925, and the early-sizes-and-logo wrenches stamped in 1925, and the later-sizes-and-logo wrenches stamped in 1939, I suppose it's possible. I just don't see how that possibility is enough to distrust the date code system. It's just as possible and maybe moreso that the latter two were forged with the same or similar dies in 1939 and stamped in 1939.
The "IQ" codes being identical (with the same placement and number of mysterious dits or dots we sometimes see accompanying date codes, including two of your examples) might make me wonder.
If I was apt to think anything outside the box on these, it would be to wonder if maybe we're wrong, or off, or too strict about the transitions to the new logo and sizing. Either coming earlier (i.e., all these wrenches are from 1925) or later (i.e., all these wrenches are from 1939) on some types and styles of wrenches.
But I would have to see a lot more of it at scale and scope to get me off the CW.
Maybe it's just my limited grey cells, LS, but I'm not seeing anything about those four "S" wrenches that casts any doubt on dating schemes.
Reading forged-in "IQ" codes on wrenches with forged-in CHROME-VANADIUM (CV) markings and stamped with the Bonney embedded shield logos, nut and bolt standard size markings (i.e., the 1081-A and 1077-C) as 1925 is perfectly consistent with the thinking that they used that size marking convention and logo up through the late 1920's/1930 or so.
Likewise, reading forged-in "IQ" codes on wrenches with forged-in CHROME-VANADIUM (CV) markings and stamped with the plain Bonney name logo, no embedded shield, milled opening sizes (i.e., the 1079-S and 1077-S) as 1939 is perfectly consistent with the thinking that they changed to the new sizing convention and the plain name logo in the late 1920's/1930 or so. They were still using those CHROME-VANADIUM (CV) dies well up through 1942 and we even see some 1943's sneak in before the WPB extended grace period ended.
Granted, the earlier wrenches being in good, clean, rust-free condition and happening to also be "S" wrenches with "IQ" codes coming from the same vendor does look deceptively set-ish, but it tell us nothing empirical about the origins of any of the wrenches or their provenance, and doesn't break any logic of the dating scheme.
If you're suggesting that all the wrenches could've been forged at the same time, i.e., in 1925, and the early-sizes-and-logo wrenches stamped in 1925, and the later-sizes-and-logo wrenches stamped in 1939, I suppose it's possible. I just don't see how that possibility is enough to distrust the date code system. It's just as possible and maybe moreso that the latter two were forged with the same or similar dies in 1939 and stamped in 1939.
The "IQ" codes being identical (with the same placement and number of mysterious dits or dots we sometimes see accompanying date codes, including two of your examples) might make me wonder.
If I was apt to think anything outside the box on these, it would be to wonder if maybe we're wrong, or off, or too strict about the transitions to the new logo and sizing. Either coming earlier (i.e., all these wrenches are from 1925) or later (i.e., all these wrenches are from 1939) on some types and styles of wrenches.
But I would have to see a lot more of it at scale and scope to get me off the CW.
I’m definitely NOT doubting the 2-letter month/year codes. My doubts arise from what’s stamped on the faces. I’m still prossessing what I’m seeing.
Yeah, there’s no provenance, but I have not thought of a plausible random or intentional series of events that would bring these four wrenches together now, if they had been forged two-and-two, fourteen years apart to the month. I think they must have been originally forged in the same month of the same year.
Here’s where I’m at:
1924 - CV-circle logo added to the spelled-out alloy on the dies.
Sep1925 - all four wrenches forged and stored unfinished.
1925-1927 - Two are ground out to size, stamped with the embedded-shield logo, 1077-C and 1081-A and respective USS/OS/SAE conventions of the time. Now stored in semi-finished state for about five years.
1927 - size convention changes to across-flats.
1932 - plain-BONNEY logo replaces embedded-shield logo.
1932-1946 - The other two (having remained unfinished for about seven years) are ground to size, stamped with plain-BONNEY logo, 1077-S and 1078-S and fractional size across-flats, and also stored semi-finished. An order including all four (and possibly others), initiates plating, then they are shipped and remain together until I purchase them.
1. I am suggesting that sized wrenches were stored in a semi-finished state until required, because if they were always plated first, an order of plain steel wrenches would always need to be forged from scratch.
2. 1939 is a possible year of plating and sale, but I think it is a distractor, suggested by the IQ code.
3. 1946 is a limit on “Made in USA” under the plain BONNEY logo - not necessarily a limit on when they were sold. But I think it most likely they were sold close to 1932.
Yeah, there’s no provenance, but I have not thought of a plausible random or intentional series of events that would bring these four wrenches together now, if they had been forged two-and-two, fourteen years apart to the month. I think they must have been originally forged in the same month of the same year.
Here’s where I’m at:
1924 - CV-circle logo added to the spelled-out alloy on the dies.
Sep1925 - all four wrenches forged and stored unfinished.
1925-1927 - Two are ground out to size, stamped with the embedded-shield logo, 1077-C and 1081-A and respective USS/OS/SAE conventions of the time. Now stored in semi-finished state for about five years.
1927 - size convention changes to across-flats.
1932 - plain-BONNEY logo replaces embedded-shield logo.
1932-1946 - The other two (having remained unfinished for about seven years) are ground to size, stamped with plain-BONNEY logo, 1077-S and 1078-S and fractional size across-flats, and also stored semi-finished. An order including all four (and possibly others), initiates plating, then they are shipped and remain together until I purchase them.
1. I am suggesting that sized wrenches were stored in a semi-finished state until required, because if they were always plated first, an order of plain steel wrenches would always need to be forged from scratch.
2. 1939 is a possible year of plating and sale, but I think it is a distractor, suggested by the IQ code.
3. 1946 is a limit on “Made in USA” under the plain BONNEY logo - not necessarily a limit on when they were sold. But I think it most likely they were sold close to 1932.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Thanks for elaborating, LS. I'm sure you saw that I was ahead of you on that in my last post.
I do think you could be inordinately affected by buying these together, though.
Don't you have any other later era logo/size markings wrenches with "IQ" codes in your collection? Or any "xQ" codes regardless of the first letter? Have you ever suspected that any of them were made in 1925 instead of 1939 before now? Why not? Just because you didn't acquire them all at the same time?
Why aren't you suspecting that the "S" wrench with the "Mack logo and the "DR" code was forged in 1926 around the same time that the big DOE wrench with the "Mack" logo and the "GR" code was forged?
I do think you could be inordinately affected by buying these together, though.
Don't you have any other later era logo/size markings wrenches with "IQ" codes in your collection? Or any "xQ" codes regardless of the first letter? Have you ever suspected that any of them were made in 1925 instead of 1939 before now? Why not? Just because you didn't acquire them all at the same time?
Why aren't you suspecting that the "S" wrench with the "Mack logo and the "DR" code was forged in 1926 around the same time that the big DOE wrench with the "Mack" logo and the "GR" code was forged?
?! Like me, I am presuming you own several dozen Bonney wrenches from several eras. I am presuming some of them are the same type of wrench and that some of those have date codes exactly one cycle apart. And I am further presuming that you didn't find them all together at the same time. If you put four of them together now - two from 1924, two from 1934, for example - and you sold them at Jake's next week, it's exactly the kind of series of events that could've brought those four "S" wrenches together. Someone liked Bonney CV "S" wrenches. Someone was trying to put a set of Bonney CV "S" wrenches together. Someone who didn't notice or care or understand logos and size markings. Maybe not even a collector, but a user. And then WWII broke out!
A couple weeks ago, I laid out all my Bonney tappet wrenches on the floor and organized them by date codes. I had no difficulty distinguishing wrenches from different cylces bearing similar date codes - there are morphological differences, plating material differences, condition differences. I make an effort to match up “pairs” with as similar date codes as possible, and even when purchased in clutches from apparent sets, they rarely bear exactly the same date codes or look as much alike as these S-wrenches do.
It seems to me rather more far-fetched that a mechanic (or any other person) in the 1930s put together a set of S-wrenches based on their date codes which were also made in two batches exactly fourteen years apart, than the way I reconciled them in my last post, which cuts that fourteen-year span in half.
It seems to me rather more far-fetched that a mechanic (or any other person) in the 1930s put together a set of S-wrenches based on their date codes which were also made in two batches exactly fourteen years apart, than the way I reconciled them in my last post, which cuts that fourteen-year span in half.
Do you suppose the "date" codes may date, or otherwise identify, the die manufacture and not necessarily the date(s) that the die was used? I have never seen any 'witness' around those forged-in codes that indicates that the code had been changed.
Perhaps, for example, a die set is made, given an identification code, or 'date' code, and then used until it's practical number of 'hits' is used up when another replacement die set is made and given a different, distinguishable code? That practice is commonly seen in injection molding even today. It identifies the tool, or mold, or die, that was used for production for Quality Control purposes. Actual date of use is a separate issue.
My 'nother two cents on this subject.
Perhaps, for example, a die set is made, given an identification code, or 'date' code, and then used until it's practical number of 'hits' is used up when another replacement die set is made and given a different, distinguishable code? That practice is commonly seen in injection molding even today. It identifies the tool, or mold, or die, that was used for production for Quality Control purposes. Actual date of use is a separate issue.
My 'nother two cents on this subject.
I have zero familiarity with the realities of industrial forging. I would defer to the opinion of someone who has, but it would still be an opinion. I think there’s plenty of room for what you described, and that it makes sense. But I’m not sure HOW much of a difference it makes to the production sequence of tools - the codes are already only interpreted as approximations to the month, not days or shifts or hours.
At BEST, the codes can only indicate the (month/year) date a given tool was forged (or the date of the die or the intended period of use of the die). What I was getting at is that production continues for several steps after forging, with no further indication of how long the tool sat between those stages or was finally shipped out.
My reconstruction asserts that the grinding and stamping of faces occurs prior to plating, and that there was in at least some cases, a gap of years between the forging date and stamping date, and again between the size stamping date and actual sale, during which the stamps were changed.
At BEST, the codes can only indicate the (month/year) date a given tool was forged (or the date of the die or the intended period of use of the die). What I was getting at is that production continues for several steps after forging, with no further indication of how long the tool sat between those stages or was finally shipped out.
My reconstruction asserts that the grinding and stamping of faces occurs prior to plating, and that there was in at least some cases, a gap of years between the forging date and stamping date, and again between the size stamping date and actual sale, during which the stamps were changed.
Just as a process insight, when I worked for New Britain the lower cost wrenches (Husky, Sparta, Penncraft) were forged, machined, polished, plated and delivered to the warehouse unmarked. They would be stamped in the warehouse to the sales order requirements.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
That was just meant to be a funny flourish at the end there, LS, nodding to WWII and its alloy restrictions resolving these kinds of dating issues with respect to wrenches made in that era and the more assuredness of the next forged-in date code cycle. It could've been your vendor who gathered them together, or the guy he got them from, etc.
Lest it seem as if I am protesting too much, I will reiterate and re-emphasize that I do think it's possible they were all forged in the 1925 "IQ" period. As a theory, the idea of tools sitting around for a few years in pre-finish surplus is not at all foreign to me. I have postulated it with several other brands due to similar issues. The latter two (the 1079-S and the 1077-S) could've been stamped after the logo and sizing convention transitions and well before the next "IQ" period (1939). (My notes say by 1930, not 1932, but I'll have to re-visit why.) After all, it was start of the Great Depression, and things weren't exactly flying off the shelves.
EDIT: To accentuate that point, since I don't think you're a Snap-on follower, @LesserSon...
Like a few other collectors, I have a few sockets stamped with multiple date codes. They are all in the 1928-1932 timeframe. I have one socket in particular that was stamped four (4) times with 4 different date codes. That's four years of it being unsold. One can easily see Bonney wrenches made in the same general time frame, forged with a date code, and sitting for that many years before the demand prompted them to eventually be prepared for selling. In the interim, the stamping dies changed for the logo and the size convention.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Even without the "BU" (February 1943) date code, this KMO "FUEL AND WATER PUMP" DBE wrench was unmistakably made by Bonney. The shape and the raised lettering give it away. They were made to service Detroit Diesel engines, they have been seen with an FSN (41-W-1495-100), and I found a very similar one made for Gray Marine a few years ago, linked here.
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FoghornApproved
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I just bought a ⅜" drive 9/16, ½, ⁷/¹⁶, and ³/⁸ 12 point sockets, all later Loc-rite stuff for $1 each and a ½" drive ⅝ for $2. They looked either unused or barely used from an antique store. I'm putting everything I once had stolen from me years ago back together for cheap. I love Bonney, too!Got a few Bonney, (my first), combo's at an estate sale for $1.00 each. Full polish 3/8', 1/2" and 9/16''. A pleasure to hold and use.
I stopped into an antiques shop near Pike’s Creek PA today. The proprietor turned out to be an Allentown native, but I decided not to inform him that my only purchase is an A-town native as well, and close to a centenarian. l didn’t have a No4, and now I do.
B Halverson
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Well here is one of these things found some years ago and just tripped across while poking around in the barn attic;
Mintgrun
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Nice little refrigeration ratchet. They made a few variations. Here are the examples that have been shared so far.
www.garagejournal.com
The one I have is in these results. It's a bit different.
Search results for query: refrigeration
www.garagejournal.com
The one I have is in these results. It's a bit different.
z28lsc
Well-known member
I got this one recently. Bonney V25 1/4".
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Nice find. Late 1945, 1946, or so. If it was chromed, I'd guess later. During the war the COO was "MADE IN U.S.A." and the selector had a weird shape. The top and bottom were rounded and knurled, but the sides were flat and smooth, almost like they made them round and then machined the sides. Probably because the ratchet was assembled with peened pins, not screws, and the heads were not flush. I have one, also dark finish, almost exactly the same - same marking, same selector, same finish, but mine is pinned. Mine and yours probably represent a very short production sequence.
z28lsc
Well-known member
I seen the pinned ones as well I need to find me one too. Thanks for the info.
genog
Well-known member
I believe this John Deere combo belongs here....
Found it this past weekend at the College Flea Market
Found it this past weekend at the College Flea Market
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Mike'smeatshop
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On the JD tractors. You could date them with how many legs on the deer. But that may not be true with wrench. Still a gem.I believe this John Deere combo belongs here....
Found it this past weekend at the College Flea Market
genog
Well-known member
Wow.On the JD tractors. You could date them with how many legs on the deer. But that may not be true with wrench. Still a gem.
That's cool to know.
Old Radar
Well-known member
The more legs it had the faster it ran...
Provincial
Well-known member
Would the ones with fewer legs be newer, because of corporate cost-cutting?
Oldtuleguy
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Legs cost $!
Farmer J.
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One of my few great regrets in life is not buying a set of those JD tools made by Bonney whilst they were available.
Here ya go, the logos looked something like this:
Here ya go, the logos looked something like this:
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Gah! When you see a stylized (modern or ultramodern) John Deere logo you don't think anything of it. But in the context of the historical John Deere logos, I can't "unsee" the fact that the stylized logos are anatomically weird! Where is the other half of the deer? And I guess it's not just how many legs, but whether the deer is bounding (2000 >) or landing (< 2000)!
Old Radar
Well-known member
The North Pole's successful litigation in 1950 forced JD to change from Reindeer to White Tail.
America's thirst for "newer and younger" icons can be seen in the mid-60s change from ten point racks to eight pointers.
At the same time, the decreasing ratio of deer encounters in their natural woodland habitats to sudden headlight encounters on public highways drove the two-legged "deer-in-the-headlights" profile into prominence.
America's thirst for "newer and younger" icons can be seen in the mid-60s change from ten point racks to eight pointers.
At the same time, the decreasing ratio of deer encounters in their natural woodland habitats to sudden headlight encounters on public highways drove the two-legged "deer-in-the-headlights" profile into prominence.
Beerhippie
Well-known member
It does look familiar:
I recall laughing with friends about the deer xing signs being--obviously--whitetail in muley country back before whitetails invaded and displaced the muleys to the most remote areas around here.
Oh, and the Nevada Randy Deer and Randy Bull warning signs... very explicit.
I recall laughing with friends about the deer xing signs being--obviously--whitetail in muley country back before whitetails invaded and displaced the muleys to the most remote areas around here.
Oh, and the Nevada Randy Deer and Randy Bull warning signs... very explicit.
Mike'smeatshop
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They only see half a deer nowadays.It does look familiar:
I recall laughing with friends about the deer xing signs being--obviously--whitetail in muley country back before whitetails invaded and displaced the muleys to the most remote areas around here.
Oh, and the Nevada Randy Deer and Randy Bull warning signs... very explicit.