Suggestions needed on defunct building

[Steve from Socal]

I have an industrial building in Kansas, as ars as I know, the type of building is irrelevent. You as the property owner can act as the general contractor/owner builder. Do the needed electrical work and as mentioned have a licensed electrican come and bless the work. Same thing with the plumbing, it is not rocket science and a bit of sweat equity goes a long way.

Depending on how the building was powered, three phase/single phase you may need to have a diffrent service drop/transformer? As a commercial customer you will pay higher rates than a residense. As far a generators, gas heaters etc, I think if you look at operating costs in the mid term even, fixing the utility service is still dollars ahead.

 

[adtarr]

@Steve in SoCal as mentioned earlier the building needs the power redone from pole to the building and then the entire building. The biggest hang up is getting a contractor to actually show up and bid the job. Since last summer I have one electrician actually show up. He quoted roughly 15k to get power from the pole to the building and install a new panel inside the building. Then I never heard from him again.

Ultimately I want to get the utilities fixed. In the mean time I still want to use the shop and looking at alternative ways to get some functionality in it.

 

[Steve from Socal]

That sounds like a high bid? What is the service and panel?

 

[adtarr]

That sounds like a high bid? What is the service and panel?

320 amp service with 3 100 amp panels inside. 2 in the shop and 1 up front.

 

[ZRX61]

Let them think it will be a business to get things moving... then just pay the wife/company secretary to show up with coffee once in a while.

 

[Steve from Socal]

Single phase service, install one 200 amp panel in the shop and plan for a 100 or 200 in the front. You can add sub panels as needed. Once you get the power and water turned on at a basic service level, you do the rest as you build out the shop. Just get the very basics to start, the 320 service to a main disconnect and a 100 amp panel with a couple lights and plugs. The water, get an electric water heater, is the bathroom functional? Get a cheap vanity/sink and toilet.

From the sound of it, you could get the basics done for under a third of that bid, 5 grand.

 

[gungatim]

I don't know the last time a functioning business was in it. Mostly abandoned for at least 10 years. The power company came out and told me they wont even attempt to turn it on until all new power is brought from the pole to the building, and all new panels were installed, etc. All must be state certified.

Just get a temporary power box and work permit. Same as any new build or rehab. It's up to the POCO to run the lines to it. I've been running my shop on the temporary electrical permit for almost 20 years now, and my cabin up North is the same way. Once it's on, it's on and nobody cares.

 

[Bert_]

320 amp service with 3 100 amp panels inside. 2 in the shop and 1 up front.

If you really need 320A service then fine but when I hear (3) 100 panels I would be thinking 200A service. Obviously I don't know what loads you are planning.

Picture shows overhead power, so not a big deal there. Commercial property usually means the utility will want a lever bypass meter socket so little extra cost there but you can still use a residential panel inside. Put in ~4 breakers powering outlets next to the panel. It's a permanent source but the outlets are temporary power while you rehab the building. 200A single phase $2500

 

[gregs]

Do they have a temporary power pole service available? Thats how a lot of contractors around here handle power on site for construction. The POCO sets and wires a pole with a small limited number of breakers for work.

Running a generator all the time your there is probably going to get old quick, but doable.

What would you do for water & sewage?

The short term might just be an RV or trailer with a built in generator you could feed into the building. It would give you all the things you need to be there for days. Drive it back and forth or leave it inside the building when your not there. Pull it outside and plug it into the building when you are there. After covid the used rv market has dropped down and you could probably find something decent for a reasonable price.

 

[adtarr]

Thank you to everyone for the conversation and suggestions!

Here are some pics of the power outside and inside the main shop area. There are two more sub-panels in the front of the building as well.

 

[adtarr]

Here are some before and after pics of the front showroom. It doesn't look like it but this place was a major dump before we started cleaning the building. All that **** was just left behind by the previous owner.....most went into the roll off.

 

[gregs]

The electrical looks like a total gut job for an electrician. If you have the skills and time you may be able to work with some of it, but I dont understand the multiple meter boxes outside?

 

[adtarr]

@gregs It is a total gut job and basically nothing in the building as far as electric goes is salvageable. Everything needs redone from the pole to the building and then throughout the building.

 

[Norcal]

Those Federal Pacific, FPE, Stab Lok panels need to go, 1 was 3 phase. 320A service is a 400A meter can with a 320A continuous rating which the building did not have.

 

[adtarr]

The one electrician I was able to get out there last summer suggested this.

 

[gregs]

I guess its considered a commercial building so that probably sets a minimum standard it has to meet. Its not like a house where you can run romex everywhere. Maybe you could use the armored cable for light loads like lighting? Either way it looks like a big project for a weekend shop. I would probably be more towards the temporary side until you are ready to commit to something that makes financial sense.

 

[CraigStu]

For power there seems to be 2 choices. My house was built w/ a temporary box on a pole and a bunch of heavy duty extension cords. If you can get that setup it would be your best bet I think. If not, an inverter generator like several examples that have been posted and bunch of heavy duty extension cords. You need to do some research on startup amps needed by both a welder and a compressor and then see what generator would supply that amount of power. If you will not be running air files, or long runs of air die grinders, a fairly small compressor will run a 1/2 dr impact wrench no problem. If you end up having to wait for the compressor to catch up an additional tank vs more compressor can often help. OTOH a gas powered welder unit will already be setup to run w/ no thinking or researching needed. Depending on what you want to weld a simple Ac stickwelder might be all you need and they are often 120V.
And there are gas powered compressors too. Best wishes to you I will look forward to watching your progress.

 

[stingry]

Have you visited with whoever handles code enforcement/building inspections for Bayard? Is rezoning a possibility? It seems to me that bringing the building up to commercial standards is the major sticking point. My 3600 sq ft shop has 200 amp service, which is completely adequate for welding, an air compressor and a woodshop full of stationary power tools. It’s too bad that you have hit this major roadblock to cleaning up and utilizing a blighted property. Good luck!

 

[adtarr]

@stingry I have had the city electric and plumbing inspectors out. This is how I started down this road when neither would turn anything on until was all updated. The building is roughly 7000sqft with two main areas......the front showroom area and the back warehouse/shop. The city really wants to see this property renovated and used for something to benefit the city. That is not why I bought it although if the front was renovated it could be leased out for a retail business. The property would be ideal for a motorcycle or atv type dealership but that will be after I sell it in a decade or so.

My main reason for buying it was for storage and workshop space. I was paying $500 a month in storage so buying the building was to stop that bleeding which it has. But I need a functional workspace while slowly renovating the entire thing.

 

[gregs]

Does the area have enough business potential to lease out the front? If you could land a tenant for a lease to suit, then you could get a small business loan and whatever incentives to update it and retain the back for yourself. But thats a whole different direction to go.

 

[adtarr]

@gregs The city has some money to help with the renovation if used for city development....like opening a business....which I dont want to do. I do have a conversation going with them about rehab money to create a retail space for someone else. But there isnt a lot of rehab money to go after either.

 

[Bert_]

@stingry I have had the city electric and plumbing inspectors out. This is how I started down this road when neither would turn anything on until was all updated.

I want to focus on this point. I do not think "all needs to be updated" just to turn on service.

What you need is to install a new service.

For the water that could mean 5' of pipe from the meter, then a hose bib.

The electrical is the same. New meter and panel then just a few outlets next to the panel.

If you need to describe your plan to the city, explain that this is to provide service while you renovate the building.

This will keep costs reasonable and you can add to it at a later date.

 

[gtsonoma]

Very cool building and a worthy project. Anything you do to get the services turned on will improve it's functionality now and overall value for that distant resale.

Try to get the city to detail the minimum to get the services turned on.
Lease out the front showroom to offset costs.

Maybe search for an Electrician / plumber that will moonlight / help you do the work yourself. Materials are a fixed cost, but your labor can offset labor costs a bunch. Take your time at it and have fun with it !!

 

[gregs]

Any chance they are giving you resistance due to all the old wiring and panels? What if you gutted all of that prior to applying for a permit?

 

[adtarr]

@gregs All the old stuff has to come out regardless. First order of business is to get someone to put new power lines from the pole down to new meters.

 

[Just_Steve]

@gregs All the old stuff has to come out regardless. First order of business is to get someone to put new power lines from the pole down to new meters.

I'm rather surprised that's not the power company responsibility.

 

[mikeyr]

Don't know the difference between residential and commercial rules, but for my shop (residential) I had the bare minimum done, wire from pole to the panel, one plug, one light and done. It can't be that much to do that and once you have that, you can do some work yourself to add a few circuits or if they require licensed work, a circuit a month

I would look into a gas welder as its been said, but running everything else on batteries and solar just seems like a major downside to me, at least with one plug, you could charge the batteries. A noisy generator will get quite tiresome very quickly every weekend. As a warehouse here in my town, you don't even need running water or toilet until you 3 or more employees, they allow those porta potty things outside for 2 or less. You did mention 3 hour drive from your house though, I would look into absolutely minimal power and a RV to stay in for the weekend. Actually, I would look into moving into town for that super cool old building.

One other thing, is resale is ever in the cards, having utilities will bring up the value, although in a depressed town, you may have to spend $20k to get $2k increase in value.

 

[adtarr]

@Just_Steve would be nice if the power company would do that!

@mikeyr long term plan is to actually buid in some living quarters. There is a good size room off the front show room area that I am planning on doing that with.

 

[Bert_]

@gregs All the old stuff has to come out regardless. First order of business is to get someone to put new power lines from the pole down to new meters.

I have never heard of an overhead wire before the meter being the customers responsibility. I would want some confirmation on that if I were you.

Typically your responsibility would end at the weatherhead.

 

[gregs]

^^ This has been my experience. The POCO runs the cables from the transformer to the weather head. I changed my house from overhead to underground service. I had to install the conduit between the pad mounted transformer and my meter panel and they pulled the cable and made the connections. They also came out in the morning to disconnect the overhead service and removed there cable and transformer.

 

[adtarr]

@Bert_ I am going to confirm that with the city.

 

[Just_Steve]

@Bert_ I am going to confirm that with the city.

Skip the city and go to the POCO direct. City sounds like roadblocks only.

 

[rktinc]

I bought a building nearly like yours. It had a new roof when I purchased it. Small towns are usually pretty easy to work with. Get to know the City Elect foreman. The city put in a new pole, a new transformer, eliminated the 3 phase and were very happy to do it for me. I think I bought the meter on the building??? My electric to the building and a new panel cost me about 7500 including labor. The inside is also really easy if you are just doing a shop. Instead of conduit use the rolls of flex aluminum shrouded wire. You can run it all your self and even hide it behind walls much easier. Leave it all unhooked and a any electrician would consider it an easy quick gig. Best to use all new electric. It will save you money and be much safer.

Once you get juice you can order a cheap wifi box from your phone provider and buy an internet based security system with cameras for about $400! You can check your building anytime you want.


Good luck with your project. That is a great looking building.

 

[rayra]

$600 will buy you a generator that will run every tool you want to use for rejuvenating the building. But without a clear path to occupying it I wouldn't proceed one inch past prepping it for sale.

 

[kwb]

For hobby use - I would go 100% off-grid.
Battery Bank, Solar, Inverter/Charger, and a generator.

Generator for when you have high demand devices like welder or compressor but integrated to help recharge if your other uses (lights, small tools) are sucking down batteries too fast.

Victron makes some good stuff and I bet you can get fully functioning for less than calling out the utility company and all the related hoops to get the power turned on to even a simple single panel and the legally minimum required circuits.

 

[dcg9381]

@dcg9381 I am just learning that hail wont be a problem as I continue to look into solar. A small solar setup may be what I need to have power readily available when I there working. Would also like something steady to keep exterior motion lights and some security cameras running.

I have solar "security" lights on my shop. You can buy these individually. They work.
For security cameras, look at the "solar gate" threads. I did this with 100W panel and 2 x 12V automotive batteries, using POE cameras.

More solar PV power is relatively inexpensive. More panels = faster recharge. Batteries just determine how many days you can do without sun (overcast) before things stop working.

 

[Old Moparz]

The generator sounds like the best option to not spend a fortune up front, but the temp electric for the construction might be the best thing to at least get power in there. Sometimes there are state, local or federal programs available for restorations with using grant money. Maybe you can consult with an architect that specializes in preservations? They might be much more knowledgeable regarding the funding.

By the way, it's a really cool looking building.

 

[HoosierMark]

It sounds like that this is the building you want but maybe you need to see a bigger picture. since it was a dump when you bought it. Consider simply cleaning it out and stripping out things of no value or use. Such as wiring, plumbing etc. then look at your options. Maybe you have a real increase in value and can sell it for a nice profit. Or set it up as an income producer. Then take the money and buy something closer then three hours away. Look at it for what it really is. It is an investment.

 

[stingry]

At the risk of being too nosy, I have to ask “ why buy a place 3 hours from home?” As to hail and solar panels, NPPD ( Nebraska Public Power District) lost an entire solar field to hail in Scottsbluff last summer.

 

[Joemctag]

@dcg9381 I am just learning that hail wont be a problem as I continue to look into solar. A small solar setup may be what I need to have power readily available when I there working. Would also like something steady to keep exterior motion lights and some security cameras running.

@gleman @mepstein getting everything working again is the plan.....it will just take a couple years and a LOT of money but I am looking for short term solutions to use the space and work on my projects. As an example on getting work done.....I have yet to find a plumber who will go look and bid me a cost to get the water turned back on. But I also need electric to get the HVAC running to keep the building warm enough so the pipes wont freeze and bust again.

Could you wall off a small part of the building for you to work in and put some valves and stuff so that you can have a minimal water supply while blowing out the rest of the water lines?
I hate to think of you heating that whole building there in Nebraska.
It’s sure a good- looking building; sites not full of junk; plenty of room for outdoor fenced- in yards.
You could rent part , even without power. Roof’s a biggie, but you did that. Just wondering: do the service bays not all have their own overhead doors like they do down south?
I’m sure a lot of us will follow your story. Good luck!