T Williams Superslim

[Farmer J.]

Inspired by the woodlandhank's display of Williams Superwrenches I am hoping to do something similar with my collection of 'TW Superslim' spanners. I've not used these for 40 years but kept them as the name 'superslim' always amused me, as they're quite fat and clumsy. When these were made T Williams was a huge English tool maker...

Does anyone know the full range of sizes these came in, or even better, have access to a catalogue page? Not been able to find this information so far, and I'm a few years too late to 'write for catalogue of full range' as the advert for the small sets suggests.

I already have sizes:
5/16" to 1 1/8" AF
1/4w to 11/16w Whitworth
6mm to 19mm Metric

I know the Whitworth went up to 1" (1 1/8 BSF) and the metric ones went to 24mm but any more info would be apppreciated, before I fix them all to a board then discover that some are missing! J.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Believe it or not, I've actually found a few TW Superslims here in the states, Farmer J. I bought them expressly because of the interesting markings and the fact that they were made in England. Had to ask a friend in the UK what they were. I will fish them out of an orphan bin when I get a chance in case you need them.

I look forward to seeing your display eventually.

Subscribed.

 

[Farmer J.]

Believe it or not, I've actually found a few TW Superslims here in the states, Farmer J. I bought them expressly because of the interesting markings and the fact that they were made in England. Had to ask a friend in the UK what they were. I will fish them out of an orphan bin when I get a chance in case you need them.

I look forward to seeing your display eventually.

Subscribed.

Thanks Lugz, I will keep posting progress on this. Here in the UK there's still lots of these old spanners around, but I think they probably only made it across the pond as tool kits in British made vehicles like Jaguars.

 

[humber2]

Does anyone know the full range of sizes these came in, or even better, have access to a catalogue page? Not been able to find this information so far, and I'm a few years too late to 'write for catalogue of full range' as the advert for the small sets suggests.

I already have sizes:
5/16" to 1 1/8" AF
1/4w to 11/16w Whitworth
6mm to 19mm Metric

I know the Whitworth went up to 1" (1 1/8 BSF) and the metric ones went to 24mm but any more info would be apppreciated, before I fix them all to a board then discover that some are missing! J.

I'm not home for another month to unroll the collection I have.

For WW there are smaller sizes and I suspect so for others.

Inch sizes go well beyond 1 1/4

Another quirk is even step jaw increment sizing where a specific toolkit needed fewer sizes.

The plated wrench you show may be from a Rover car dashboard mounted tool tray.

What is the busted one lower left?

These tools have never been my go for tools but they do perform much better than the numerous knuckle busters made down to a price using carbon steel.

Clearly there is some unstated alloying agent involved.

 

[Farmer J.]

I'm not home for another month to unroll the collection I have.

For WW there are smaller sizes and I suspect so for others.

Inch sizes go well beyond 1 1/4

Another quirk is even step jaw increment sizing where a specific toolkit needed fewer sizes.

The plated wrench you show may be from a Rover car dashboard mounted tool tray.

What is the busted one lower left?

These tools have never been my go for tools but they do perform much better than the numerous knuckle busters made down to a price using carbon steel.

Clearly there is some unstated alloying agent involved.

Thanks for your help with this. Interesting that there may be more sizes, I've never seen any smaller sizes than mine or larger ones in "AF.

I notice a few odd increments, it all adds to the entertainment of this project and keeps my brain active better than doing crossword puzzles! Some like:
11/16" - 13/16"
9/16" - 11/16"
7/8" - 3/4"
17mm - 22mm


I think the shiny plated spanner is likely from a Rover car of some sort Dad had one once. A few others of mine also have plating that's not very bright, looks like zink, and the rest are black paint.

The 6mm is broken, but I have found a replacement locally already.

My selection also has a few 'oddball' sizes:
19/32" and also 25/32" in the AF range, I wonder what those are for.. Most of mine came originally in various vehicle and long forgotten machine took kits so could be for specific applications.

 

[woodland_hank]

I look forward to the end result!

 

[Farmer J.]

Thanks Hank,
I hope it doesn't also take me 8 years to track down all the missing spanners! Mine are a lot more common than yours though. You really started something with your wonderful display, and now you've got me going I've kicked off, and trying for the full range in AF, Whitworth and Metric..
J.

 

[F124C]

I wasn't aware that these spanners came in sets. I've only found them in old car/truck toolkits, so the ones I have skip certain sizes and as you point out often have odd combinations of sizes on the one spanner. I've got one or two plated ones also but have no clue as to their intended application! Also, I've never seen them in metric sizes over here.

It's great to see someone interested in a fairly obscure make, especially one that's not chrome plated!!.... It'll be interesting to see just what was made 'back in the day' when everyone chimes in with what they have in this brand.

I'll have a rummage in my garage and will try to post pics of whatever I turn up.

Could I ask where you found the advert for the set of spanners?
(I notice it includes a 1/8 x 3/16" W).

AL.

 

[Farmer J.]

Thanks for your interest and for having a rummage Al,
I think, on research so far, these were only sold in the sets as in the advert and most of the spanners came in vehicle tool kits.
The advert was on ebay, until I bought it!
I have now found one of those small 1/8 - 3/16 Whitworth spanners.

Interesting further info is on Graces Guide
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/T._Williams

And more info on 'Progress is fine, but..'
http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/vanished-tool-makers-t-williams-drop.html

Look forward to see what more info turns up, the Hawley Collection tool museum in Sheffield say they have some catalogues and may be able to scan pages too.
http://www.hawleytoolcollection.com/

 

[2oolhound]

Great collection there Farmer J.

I thought I had a pretty good collection of SuperSlim Whitworth but you have me beat there.
Here's some photos of mine:

These are some 1/2 Dr Superslim sockets:

Some 3/8 Dr.:

It's been a couple years since I posted these, I've always though the Spearpoint may be made by the same manufacturer. Superslim has a bathtub basin in the handle and the spearpoint doesn't but otherwise they are similar and I ofter find them together.

 

[F124C]

Farmer J,

Thanks for the links, I'll certainly check them out

AL.

 

[F124C]

2oolhound,

Thanks for posting these pics. Interesting comparision you make and show between Superslim and Spearpoint

I like your Superslim sockets, haven't seen any of these over here before.!
AL.

 

[Farmer J.]

Thanks for the pics of your Whitworth set and info, and for posting those chrome sockets 200lhound, not seen those before. I have seen those Spearpoint spanners, and they do look similar to the Superslims. Also seen some that look just like the Spearpoints but with 'SSP' cast in to them within a border, they may have come in Land Rover tool kits. Thought about researching them but trying to stay focused..!! The name Spearpoint hasn't jumped out to me in any of the T Williams documentary records I have seen so far.

 

[MShaw]

The 19/32" opening fit an early 5/16" heavy pattern fastener. I found them holding the cast iron tanks to the radiator core on an old Austin Western road grader I worked on back in the 1960s.

I seem to remember the 25/32" fitting Model A Ford main bearings but I may be wrong.

 

[Farmer J.]

The 19/32" opening fit an early 5/16" heavy pattern fastener. I found them holding the cast iron tanks to the radiator core on an old Austin Western road grader I worked on back in the 1960s.

I seem to remember the 25/32" fitting Model A Ford main bearings but I may be wrong.

That's interesting, thank you. I have now also heard the bulkhead fasteners on a Model A were an odd /32" size, can't remember which exactly.
The advert from 1956 describes one of the sets specifically as 'American AF' which is the set which includes the 19/32" and 25/32".
Maybe someone with knowledge of fastener sizes will know but I think these now unusual sizes are to do with the fixed relationship between bolt diameter and head size in the American AF system?

 

[F124C]

Thanks for the pics of your Whitworth set and info, and for posting those chrome sockets 200lhound, not seen those before. I have seen those Spearpoint spanners, and they do look similar to the Superslims. Also seen some that look just like the Spearpoints but with 'SSP' cast in to them within a border, they may have come in Land Rover tool kits. Thought about researching them but trying to stay focused..!! The name Spearpoint hasn't jumped out to me in any of the T Williams documentary records I have seen so far.

Here's the only spanner I've found marked SSP (but without a border) size is (presumably) 3/16 x 1/4" Whitworth.

AL.

 

[Farmer J.]

I now have the pages from the 1965 catalogue for these.. still got to get a few more to complete my collection, mostly larger sizes in AF and Metric.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Maybe someone with knowledge of fastener sizes will know but I think these now unusual sizes are to do with the fixed relationship between bolt diameter and head size in the American AF system?

Without a doubt. Any vintage (pre-1955 or so) Machinists Handbook or tool mfgr's catalog will confirm that.

A 5/16" bolt or nut made to the Society of American Engineers (S.A.E.) standard had a head that was 1/2" in diameter (Across-the-Flats) and therefore required a 1/2" wrench or socket to turn.

But a 5/16" bolt or nut made to the United States standard, often expressed as U.S.S. for short, had a head that was 19/32" in diameter (Across-the-Flats) and therefore required a 19/32" wrench or socket to turn.

The same slightly oversized AF heads can be found on 7/ and 9/16" U.S.S. nuts and bolts, which took 25/32" and 31/32" wrenches, respectively, rather than the 7/ and 9/16" S.A.E. nuts and bolts, which took 3/4" and 7/8" wrenches, respectively.

 

[Fretters]

Lovely spanners, the Superslim's. Usually the first type I'll reach for from my collection of spanners.

 

[Gmonkee]

One lonely rust pitted TW Superslim AF ended up in my work kit in central Mexico.

Even the AF stuff makes for metric equivilents for me. Its one tough old spanner.

 

[Farmer J.]

Without a doubt. Any vintage (pre-1955 or so) Machinists Handbook or tool mfgr's catalog will confirm that.

A 5/16" bolt or nut made to the Society of American Engineers (S.A.E.) standard had a head that was 1/2" in diameter (Across-the-Flats) and therefore required a 1/2" wrench or socket to turn.

But a 5/16" bolt or nut made to the United States standard, often expressed as U.S.S. for short, had a head that was 19/32" in diameter (Across-the-Flats) and therefore required a 19/32" wrench or socket to turn.

The same slightly oversized AF heads can be found on 7/ and 9/16" U.S.S. nuts and bolts, which took 25/32" and 31/32" wrenches, respectively, rather than the 7/ and 9/16" S.A.E. nuts and bolts, which took 3/4" and 7/8" wrenches, respectively.

Thanks for this Lugz. A nice concise answer to a much debated topic, I've heard lots of unconvincing explanations as to why wrenches turn up in these sizes, like "It's to allow for the thickness of the paint on the nut"!

 

[humber2]

I now have the pages from the 1965 catalogue for these.. still got to get a few more to complete my collection, mostly larger sizes in AF and Metric.

Good work finding these lists. Thanks for posting them.

I note 18 Whitworth sizes on the list, thought I had most but have 6 wrench size pairings not answering the roll call.

I'll try to find my tray of A/F spanners tomorrow and report back.

 

[d42jeep]

Humber,
I assume from your posting that you have returned home. I very much enjoyed our visit and i hope you will look me up the next time you come to the US. Thanks again for the King **** and other wrenches!
-Don

 

[Farmer J.]

Good work finding these lists. Thanks for posting them.

I note 18 Whitworth sizes on the list, thought I had most but have 6 wrench size pairings not answering the roll call.

I'll try to find my tray of A/F spanners tomorrow and report back.

Thanks. I will go through the lists soon and check off which ones I have and see exactly what's missing.
I do have one which is not on those 1965 catalogue lists. I know some of my spanners are a few years older than 1965 (so am I !!) and the advert I have is from 1956, so probably the list changed over the years as they were made for at least a decade.
This point is where a 'collector' can get mentally ******* in knots..!
Does one collect:
all of them ever made,
all made in a particular year,
all of one type,
all in one of the 3 or 4 different finishes they came in,
all the ones I happen to have already,
all the ones once sold in sets,
all the ones for particular vehicles or machines,
all the ones until I get sick of it,
or run out of money,
or get carried off by the men in white coats..

 

[woodland_hank]

I like to put together sets as they appear listed in the catalog. However, in the case of my Williams DOE ribbed collection I chose to assemble all wrenches listed in the catalog for a particular year. It turned out to be 46 wrenches in that style. It took me 8 years to accomplish the task but I'm very happy with the results. It depends on how persistent you are I guess.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I've heard lots of unconvincing explanations as to why wrenches turn up in these sizes, like "It's to allow for the thickness of the paint on the nut"!

That's a good one. Others are, "It's a metric equivalent" and, "It's a little extra slop for inferior manufacturing." The last one isn't such a bad theory, actually, given all the /32nds in the pressed-steel socket era. Still wrong, though.

or get carried off by the men in white coats...

Just make sure you leave specific and explicit instructions for your family in case this happens. Otherwise someone like fretters is going to end up with all your tools for a few quid!

 

[Farmer J.]

Here's some pics and info kindly sent by humber2, I think I have managed to attach the pics by loading them early morning when the internet is a bit quicker! I first saw a 'British Made' one only a couple of days ago, on ebay. The older type with no recess in the handle turn up quite often for sale in UK. Thanks for all the extra info humber2.
Humber2 says:

I'd like to establish a date for the "bathtub" Superslims and it appears from Grace's Guide the blue pamphlet of 1951 may be pretty close.

My first image is for two TW's older than 1951.

I collect Whitworth tools from all manufacturers.

The early WW bathtubs just showed the WW size.

With the British Standard revision c 1952 toolmakers generally revised the dimensions.

Looks like initially WW and BS was used.

Then WW and BSF

So there are three series of "sets" to be found.

To make it harder there are examples of British Made before Made in England too.

Image 2 shows these options.

 

[Farmer J.]

Here's the other full scans of the 1965 catalogue pages the museum sent me. It shows the later pattern of chrome vanadium spanners already being produced, so the ones with the recessed handle design probably lasted about 20 years in production maybe a bit longer and included the progressions shown by humber2, but by the early 1980's I'm pretty sure they were replaced by the later design of spanner which is actually a bit slimmer. I have a couple of those that came new with a Marshall tractor in around 1982.

 

[humber2]

I have a few comments to add in

I'd like to establish a date for the "bathtub" Superslims and it appears from Grace's Guide the blue pamphlet of 1951 may be pretty close.

My first image is for two TW's older than 1951.
-Note that the earliest example didn't say W, that was quite common for pre WW2 UK toolmakers

I collect Whitworth tools from all manufacturers.

The early WW bathtubs just showed the WW size.
-Actually just W

With the British Standard revision c 1952 toolmakers generally revised the dimensions.

Looks like initially WW and BS was used.
-W and BS

Then WW and BSF
-W and BSF

-So there are at least three series of bathtub "sets" to be found.

To make it harder there are examples of British Made before Made in England too.
-Putting the cat amongst the canaries I see I have two examples of the 7/16 X 1/2 British Made, one is early with sizes in W, the other has the W and BSF as later examples. Aargh!

And while we image those let's include the same size in a short series of which I have only this size.


We'll get some more images on the go.

And I'll continue the collecting search..........

 

[Farmer J.]

And I'll continue the collecting search..........

Thanks for all this humber2
Not sure where this project is heading, but it has kept me amused for the last few weeks through the latest coldest wettest spring I can remember. Nothing planted at all anywhere on the farm, so when the sun does come out I may not have time to post for a while..
I would at least like to fill in the gaps in the sizes within my sets, and there's plenty available for me to achieve that, but obtaining the larger sizes in AF and metric is going to be very unlikely as I have never ever even seen those. Maybe they didn't ever sell many of those big sizes at all.

 

[Farmer J.]

pics from humber2

 

[humber2]

pics from humber2

These show 4 versions of the same size wrench.

I have only found the one size of the shortened version.

 

[Farmer J.]

From humber2
these images show the successor to the Superslim range.

Interesting that the BS sizes are not given, and that chrome vanadium is revealed as the alloy TW used now and probably beforehand.

Chromium plated ring spanner.

Last two are similar but reversed as to the text.
I have no idea as to application, maybe from a toolkit for some make/ model.

 

[Farmer J.]

From humber2:

I located my tray of these and compared to the 1965 list.

Images are of spanners not on that list.

3/4-7/8 in two lengths
9/16-15/16
9/16-3/4
9/16-11/16 has size deleted from shank but stamped into head.
7/16-9/16

This adds 5 which could have been made before or after the 1965 list.

Otherwise I have 5 missing in my roll call.

I have no metric samples, seldom seen down under.

 

[Farmer J.]

Thank you for going through these and checking against the list Humber2.
Now the farm finally has crops growing well, (the latest spring since 1947 or '63 I'm told) I have had a chance to check the sizes.. I do have a 3/4 x 7/8" and mine is 9" long..
I reckon they just made a load of odd sizes not on the 1965 catalogue list, anything required to suit a vehicle tool kit.
Still wondering how to proceed with this project, as the catalogue list from 1965 date doesn't show all that were made.
I may just gather up a load of them and nail them up on the barn wall along with a lot of other interesting 'junk' for fun and the amusement of visitors..

 

[Farmer J.]

Got a few more of these spanners recently, here's a progress picture. Still looking for a few more, will post the sizes when I can get around to going through the catalogue pages..

 

[Farmer J.]

Here's the update of progress so far, following the example of woodland_hank to display as in a catalogue listing.. I'm only trying to collect all the sizes and disregarding the different finishes.
Working from the 1965 catalogue listing, here are the sizes of TW Superslim spanners I am still looking for:

AF sizes
3/8 x 7/16
3/4 x 13/16
13/16 x 7/8
7//8 x 15/16
1 1/8 x 1 1/12

Whitworth sizes (these also have the BSF sizes on them, I'm just noting the Whitworth not the BSF)
1/2 x 5/8
9/16 x 5/8
1 x 1 1/8

Metric sizes
11 x 14
14 x 17
19 x 22
22 x 27
27 x 32

and already got extra to the catalogue listings
9/16 x 3/4
22 x 24

and got 'Colchester Lathe' versions
11/16 x 9/16
1 1/8 x 3/4
1 5/16 x 15/16

 

[Farmer J.]

Progress update on the collection.... I now have most of the sizes listed in the 1965 catalogue, and a few more not listed in it.
The ones I don't have seem to be ones which nobody I have asked has ever seen, so probably made in very small quantities or only to special order. They would all be duplicates of sizes I already have but in different combinations of sizes on one spanner.
Also picked up a few 'specials', for 'Colchester Lathe' and 'Ford', and also a special cranked 3/8" BSF spanner which came in Land Rover tool kits for getting at the prop. shaft mounting flange bolts.

 

[Farmer J.]

Latest addition to the T Williams collection..
A 3/4" AF single open end made for Ford, no. 74DB - 17014 - CA
It's 13" long.
Does anyone know what this would have been used for?

 

[kyrbz]

I originally bought this Whitworth set for a brit bike I'm restoring, but they're a little longer than I'd like for a bike tool kit. Still glad to have them as a back up to my King **** wrenches on the occasions I need 2 of one wrench size.