T Williams Superslim

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, J!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...always understood it to mean a car made on mainland Europe, rather than on made in the islands of Great Britain. Normally a French, German or Italian car. A Mercedes, Fiat or Citroen that sort of thing. They usually have metric fasteners...

Thanks for this, Farmer J.

 

[matthew]

Oh gosh, prices on that are pre-decimalization... it’s like hearing people say “handwriting will not be intelligible to anyone in 100 years”

Interesting they offer 3 finishes. What would H and Super equate to?

 

[Farmer J.]

Oh gosh, prices on that are pre-decimalization... it’s like hearing people say “handwriting will not be intelligible to anyone in 100 years”

Interesting they offer 3 finishes. What would H and Super equate to?

Yes, that's the pricing I understand. I still convert the metric money to pounds, shillings and pence in my head...

'H' finish is rough casting covered in black paint all over, and seems to be the most usual specification. 'Super' finish has the same black finish but with the side faces of both ends ground smooth and shiny. Because of the grinding they are in fact slightly slimmer than the Heavy finish.
The chrome finish is all over, and also not advertised but some of the contract made ones for tool kits had a galvanised finish.
The chrome ones were more than twice as expensive than the 'H' finish, so quite unusual. It's not very good quality chrome either thin and flaky.

 

[DAustin]

I wonder why there are no 8mm or 10mm sizes in the Metric sets, only in the Scooter set.

 

[Farmer J.]

I wonder why there are no 8mm or 10mm sizes in the Metric sets, only in the Scooter set.

This is one of the most annoying things about Metric tools of that era made in England. It took ages to cotton on to the German DIN sizes so 10mm was left out of sets by most of the makers here. It probably hastened the demise of the industry, one has a mental image of some stuffy old chaps in suits sitting around a mahogany board table at Britool head office, and and saying "we made some sets of that new metric stuff, but not sold much, there's just no call for it".. whilst in the workshops of the land everyone is trying to find a 10mm spanner.

 

[four.cycle]

"...of that era made in England..."

That is certainly not exclusive to wrenches coming from England.
If you look at early U.S. made metric socket sets, you'll walk away scratching your head - no 15mm or 16mm or 18mm in most of them.
I have several 1/4" drive sets - 100% complete - that stop at 11mm or 12mm.
Go figure.

 

[DAustin]

This is one of the most annoying things about Metric tools of that era made in England. It took ages to cotton on to the German DIN sizes so 10mm was left out of sets by most of the makers here. It probably hastened the demise of the industry, one has a mental image of some stuffy old chaps in suits sitting around a mahogany board table at Britool head office, and and saying "we made some sets of that new metric stuff, but not sold much, there's just no call for it".. whilst in the workshops of the land everyone is trying to find a 10mm spanner.

I think the British were rather innovative on this, they pre-lost your 10mm for you.

 

[DAustin]

Looks like Superslim wrenches were in David Brown tractor tool kits. Here's a link talking about it.

David Brown tool kits? - David Brown Tractor Forum

 

[humber2]

There’s a 10 minute YouTube video showing large Superslim spanners being drop forged.

Google tilton road drop forge and read the comments while watching.

 

[Farmer J.]

There’s a 10 minute YouTube video showing large Superslim spanners being drop forged.

Google tilton road drop forge and read the comments while watching.

That's a good one to watch, and reading the comments. Thanks humber.
I bet those chaps lost their hearing, working in that noise without ear defenders.! I have read that the noise of the drop hammers could be heard by those in the stands of the Tilton Road football stadium, until the T Williams works was demolished to make room for extending it.

 

[humber2]

Do we have a start date for the Superslim range?

It would have to be in the early ‘50’s with the British Made marked spanners.

Which brings me to the question of which style and finish for the David Brown application to the Cropmaster?

It was made until 1954 which must have had many versions if supplied from its pre-war inception.

 

[Farmer J.]

Looks like Superslim wrenches were in David Brown tractor tool kits. Here's a link talking about it.

David Brown tool kits? - David Brown Tractor Forum

That's interesting, Superslim spanners were used in a wide range of vehicle and machine tool kits. I remember having a red David Brown 990 Implematic tractor on the farm and that probably came with some of my spanners! It was a pretty awful tractor to drive but durable it lasted in to the 1990's. The engine was completely knackered, but we kept it because when it was about ready for the scrapheap one day it caught fire, some guy came past on the highway and put it out with an extinguisher. The insurance wouldn't write it off and had it re wired and new fuel pipes ect.. so we had to keep using it.. we used to call it 'Gutless' !
We had various other white David Brown's over the years which may have come with tool kits, but i remember a new white 996 one in 1976 and that came with only a wheel nut spanner and a 1/2" square male 'L' drain plug wrench. No other tools with that I'm sure because I took delivery of it and drove it from new.

 

[DAustin]

That's interesting, Superslim spanners were used in a wide range of vehicle and machine tool kits. I remember having a red David Brown 990 Implematic tractor on the farm and that probably came with some of my spanners! It was a pretty awful tractor to drive but durable it lasted in to the 1990's. The engine was completely knackered, but we kept it because when it was about ready for the scrapheap one day it caught fire, some guy came past on the highway and put it out with an extinguisher. The insurance wouldn't write it off and had it re wired and new fuel pipes ect.. so we had to keep using it.. we used to call it 'Gutless' !
We had various other white David Brown's over the years which may have come with tool kits, but i remember a new white 996 one in 1976 and that came with only a wheel nut spanner and a 1/2" square male 'L' drain plug wrench. No other tools with that I'm sure because I took delivery of it and drove it from new.

All I know about David Brown tractors was, Mr. Moulterd on Grace&Favour had one

 

[Private Lugnutz]

DAustin,
I feel like I may owe you an apology. I'm suddenly getting the impression you're in England, which I didn't realize before. When we were having the discussion about the meaning of "continental cars" on the NOS Superslim wrenches box on the Kit Wrenches thread, before it migrated here, when I said we should ask Farmer J or Dave455, because they were British, I didn't mean to impugn your capacity to impart the same kind of experience/understanding.

 

[DAustin]

DAustin,
I feel like I may owe you an apology. I'm suddenly getting the impression you're in England, which I didn't realize before. When we were having the discussion about the meaning of "continental cars" on the NOS Superslim wrenches box on the Kit Wrenches thread, before it migrated here, when I said we should ask Farmer J or Dave455, because they were British, I didn't mean to impugn your capacity to impart the same kind of experience/understanding.

None needed. I'm here in Ohio. I've been to the UK and have had 2 British Motorcycles and 3 British cars and 23&Me said my DNA is 74% British but that's about it. With the continental cars wrenches -sometimes even a blind pig finds an acorn.

 

[Dave455]

Farmer J, Dave455

Would you guys please interpret the expression "continental cars"? What does it mean? In a separate thread, I guessed that it meant of or pertaining to Europe, i.e., cars made in Europe vs. elsewhere. DAustin suggested it meant metric. And lo and behold, the wrenches are metric. But that still leaves me baffled. What would the box say if the wrenches were BSF or Whitworth? Certainly not all cars made in Europe when these wrenches were made had metric fasteners. So please clear this up. Is "continental" a synonym for "metric"? Or does it refer to European, regardless of the standard?

Basically, what Farmer J said.

”Continental” means anything originating in continental europe, and when those wrenches were made I think almost everything “continental” would have been metric.

There would have been a few continental vehicles that didn’t use metric, but few and far between, and not found in the car park of T.Williams…

Edit - oops - didn’t realise there was another page of answers to that question!

 

[Dave455]

I wonder why there are no 8mm or 10mm sizes in the Metric sets, only in the Scooter set.

Years back, my Grandfathers company had a contract making “resonated gongs” primarily for church use. I was told that hearing my Grandfather (not the worlds greatest churchgoer) and his mates (ditto) discussing how these might be used was totally hilarious.

Back then, I think it would be a similar discussion hearing a group of blokes from a factory in Small Heath, Birmingham discussing metric fasteners. I bet none of ‘em knew what was actually used.

Worse still, they might have based it on the then newly adopted “British Standard Metric”, an old “S.I.” metric thread system that was thought would become common, but never did. Naturally, it used different bolt head diameters from all the other metric systems, though in fairness did predate many.

 

[DAustin]

Years back, my Grandfathers company had a contract making “resonated gongs” primarily for church use. I was told that hearing my Grandfather (not the worlds greatest churchgoer) and his mates (ditto) discussing how these might be used was totally hilarious.

Back then, I think it would be a similar discussion hearing a group of blokes from a factory in Small Heath, Birmingham discussing metric fasteners. I bet none of ‘em knew what was actually used.

Worse still, they might have based it on the then newly adopted “British Standard Metric”, an old “S.I.” metric thread system that was thought would become common, but never did. Naturally, it used different bolt head diameters from all the other metric systems, though in fairness did predate many.

Looking at some old British car mags. it looks like there was a market for continental vehicles in the UK. I wonder if some of the other British tool makers had the same range in their metric tool kits.

 

[Dave455]

Looking at some old British car mags. it looks like there was a market for continental vehicles in the UK. I wonder if some of the other British tool makers had the same range in their metric tool kits.

There certainly was, but most didn’t sell in huge numbers in the 60’s, certainly not where I lived. I can still remember the first “continental” car I ever saw, a Renault 16, purchased by a neighbour in about 1969. They were decent cars, but people had concerns about getting spares.

VW’s were everywhere of course, and quite a few folks bought things like the BMW 02 series, as there wasn’t much comparable of domestic manufacture.

It was the small hatchbacks of the 70’s that really made inroads though. You could buy a Renault 5 or VW Golf for reasonable money, and they were way better cars than many domestic offerings.

Most British metric wrench sets seemed to include every size. Indeed, this was seen as one of the disadvantages of the metric system. With British Standard you would only find about 5 sizes on any small vehicle. With SAE you might need maybe 7, but with metric you probably needed 10. Of course, you would only actually use about 5, but which 5….?

 

[DAustin]

There certainly was, but most didn’t sell in huge numbers in the 60’s, certainly not where I lived. I can still remember the first “continental” car I ever saw, a Renault 16, purchased by a neighbour in about 1969. They were decent cars, but people had concerns about getting spares.

VW’s were everywhere of course, and quite a few folks bought things like the BMW 02 series, as there wasn’t much comparable of domestic manufacture.

It was the small hatchbacks of the 70’s that really made inroads though. You could buy a Renault 5 or VW Golf for reasonable money, and they were way better cars than many domestic offerings.

Most British metric wrench sets seemed to include every size. Indeed, this was seen as one of the disadvantages of the metric system. With British Standard you would only find about 5 sizes on any small vehicle. With SAE you might need maybe 7, but with metric you probably needed 10. Of course, you would only actually use about 5, but which 5….?

Japanese cars and Bikes shine on this-8mm,10mm,12mm,14mm, and 17mm covers just about most of the sizes you need.

 

[Dave455]

Japanese cars and Bikes shine on this-8mm,10mm,12mm,14mm, and 17mm covers just about most of the sizes you need.

I think most things are O.K, once you know what system your vehicle uses. ISO/DIN/JIS or whatever.

I have a BMW, and I only carry the sizes I know it uses 8,10,13,17. Of course, first month I had it I found a friend broken down in her Nissan, and had to go for tools..!

 

[four.cycle]

"... 8mm,10mm,12mm,14mm, and 17mm..."

ahh yes... the "magic numbers", eh?
here's a U.S. made metric socket set - most likely made during the last years of Thorsen's operation - which would logically date from the mid-to-late-1980's, which contains those sizes: 8 10 12 14 and 17mm plus 11mm and 13mm, but no 15mm.
I realize I'm way off the T. Williams track here, but it's demonstrative of many U.S. tool manufacturers' failures to get up to speed on metric tools.
Prior to 1971, the only "foreign" cars you saw on the road around here were lots of Volkswagen beetles, a few Buick Opels (German), and every great once in a while an MG, Austin-Healy, Triumph, Jaguar, and less frequently a crappy old Renault. There were a few eccentrics who drove Citroen DS sedans, and I even recall a couple regular customers who drove BMW Isettas.
The Japanese cars didn't come into the market here locally until 1971: the tiny Honda CVCC that everybody laughed at, and tinny little Toyota Corollas and Datsun LB110s.

At that time, I never could figure out why so many metric "sets" (whether they were sockets or wrenches) contained 9 or 11mm - the only things they seemed to fit were the Weinmann brake calipers on my Motobecane-built Astra 10-speed. But no sets contained a 15mm, which I found all over my Opel Kadett B (VIN 319310696 Bochum plant.)

The American tool makers just didn't get it together with the metric stuff until long after G.M. started mixing metric fasteners in at their assembly plants in the mid-1970s.

It comes as no surprise that a similar condition existed "across the pond".

 

[matthew]

I try to limit myself to stuff I could find useful. Given that I never have and almost certainly never will work on old British stuff, this kind of violates that rule, but nonetheless my very limited Whitworth collection, including one SuperSlim that feels more like it was from the steam engine era than automotive....

(The Gordon DBE feels like quality - not sure if the finish wan’t very durable, or if it was due to previous owners neglect)

 

[DAustin]

ahh yes... the "magic numbers", eh?
here's a U.S. made metric socket set - most likely made during the last years of Thorsen's operation - which would logically date from the mid-to-late-1980's, which contains those sizes: 8 10 12 14 and 17mm plus 11mm and 13mm, but no 15mm.
I realize I'm way off the T. Williams track here, but it's demonstrative of many U.S. tool manufacturers' failures to get up to speed on metric tools.
Prior to 1971, the only "foreign" cars you saw on the road around here were lots of Volkswagen beetles, a few Buick Opels (German), and every great once in a while an MG, Austin-Healy, Triumph, Jaguar, and less frequently a crappy old Renault. There were a few eccentrics who drove Citroen DS sedans, and I even recall a couple regular customers who drove BMW Isettas.
The Japanese cars didn't come into the market here locally until 1971: the tiny Honda CVCC that everybody laughed at, and tinny little Toyota Corollas and Datsun LB110s.

At that time, I never could figure out why so many metric "sets" (whether they were sockets or wrenches) contained 9 or 11mm - the only things they seemed to fit were the Weinmann brake calipers on my Motobecane-built Astra 10-speed. But no sets contained a 15mm, which I found all over my Opel Kadett B (VIN 319310696 Bochum plant.)

The American tool makers just didn't get it together with the metric stuff until long after G.M. started mixing metric fasteners in at their assembly plants in the mid-1970s.

It comes as no surprise that a similar condition existed "across the pond".

When I gave my first VW Bug to my brother, I only had a few metric tools to work on it. When I gave him the car, I also gave him the metric tools. I told him I doubt I would ever need metric for anything anymore. Man was I ever wrong! I've still got all my Whitworth / BS wrenches and sockets just in case I pick up another old British car or Bike someday. Most of my Whitworth / BS tools are Britool they must have been easier to get back then other British brands.

 

[Farmer J.]

Japanese cars and Bikes shine on this-8mm,10mm,12mm,14mm, and 17mm covers just about most of the sizes you need.

I have a BMW, and I only carry the sizes I know it uses 8,10,13,17. Of course, first month I had it I found a friend broken down in her Nissan, and had to go for tools..!

These 2 posts illustrate the 'Metric spanner situation' so well...!

 

[Farmer J.]

I try to limit myself to stuff I could find useful. Given that I never have and almost certainly never will work on old British stuff, this kind of violates that rule, but nonetheless my very limited Whitworth collection, including one SuperSlim that feels more like it was from the steam engine era than automotive....

(The Gordon DBE feels like quality - not sure if the finish wan’t very durable, or if it was due to previous owners neglect)

Gordon tools have a reputation for better than average finish and chrome, amongst English made tools. The chrome is usually flaky and scabby by now though, I suspect partly because of the damp climate here and also all the finish on all our tools seems to be poor compared to American made ones. Possibly because of the difference in resources here (raw materials and economy) compared to post war USA. I bet your old Herbrand wrench has lovely thick generous plating on it.
The old Superslim you have is 'Heavy finish', so beloved by us Brits! Just simple black paint over the forged steel, nothing flashy, and nothing to go wrong. Cheap to buy and easy to clean up if damaged or corroded. No finesse involved in manufacture or use. And yes, we were still in the last gasps of the steam era when that was made here I remember it well, rushing off down the lane when the round timber haulers blew the whistle and stopped to take on water.
I do prefer a non-chrome finish for tools kept in tractor boxes and on board machines, they often get wet dirty and rusty and i don't want flaky chrome under my skin.

 

[DAustin]

These 2 posts illustrate the 'Metric spanner situation' so well...!

It's JIS vs. DIN vs. ANSI/ISO.

Metric Bolt Heads and Wrench Sizes

ANSI/SO, DIN and JIS bolts.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

 

[DAustin]

Looking at this chart I wonder if this has changed over the years. With my VW bugs I know you needed a 21mm socket or wrench and at least one 14mm nut you needed a wrench for. Just about the only size I don't remember ever using on them was a 20mm. 10mm and 13mm were the most used. In fact, the first German tools I bought were a 10x13mm open end and 10x13mm box end wrenches (Spanners)

 

[Dave455]

It's JIS vs. DIN vs. ANSI/ISO.

Metric Bolt Heads and Wrench Sizes

ANSI/SO, DIN and JIS bolts.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

Yes, except that they got that a bit wrong - ANSI and ISO are different.

ANSI uses 15mm, ISO 16mm. They sort of covered that by including both!

I only use ISO, DIN or JIS. 15mm is the only size I have never used!

 

[DAustin]

Yes, except that they got that a bit wrong - ANSI and ISO are different.

ANSI uses 15mm, ISO 16mm. They sort of covered that by including both!

I only use ISO, DIN or JIS. 15mm is the only size I have never used!

As Shaw said, " England and America are two countries separated by the same language."
So, it looks like the world is separated by the Metric system.

 

[d42jeep]

This is as close as I’m ever going to get to owning a Jaguar.
-Don

 

[Farmer J.]

This is as close as I’m ever going to get to owning a Jaguar.
-Don

Nice find Don.
Apparently the asking price for a Jaguar toolkit wrench is around £1,000

Jaguar XK120 toolkit 7/16 X 1/2AF & 9/16 X 5/8AF Britsh Made Superslim Wrenches | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Jaguar XK120 toolkit 7/16 X 1/2AF & 9/16 X 5/8AF Britsh Made Superslim Wrenches at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Tostal]

Nice find Don.
Apparently the asking price for a Jaguar toolkit wrench is around £1,000

Jaguar XK120 toolkit 7/16 X 1/2AF & 9/16 X 5/8AF Britsh Made Superslim Wrenches | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Jaguar XK120 toolkit 7/16 X 1/2AF & 9/16 X 5/8AF Britsh Made Superslim Wrenches at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

I've seen other ads from that seller and imho he's forever 'chancing his arm' as we say over here.
Sadly someone might even pay his asking price and then not ever use the tools...
It might be cheaper to have reproduction items made..
Reminds me of the story of the late Tom Wheatcroft who baulked at paying the 'going rate' (c. £5million) for iirc a Bugatti Atalante Coupe?, instead he commissioned the building of a replica for c. £1m. (iirc he had sourced an original engine that was being used in a locomotiv

~Tostal

 

[Tostal]

This is as close as I’m ever going to get to owning a Jaguar.
-Don

And this is as close as I'm ever likely to get to owning a Jaguar.
Although it's a non-runner, it is totally rust free!

~Tostal

 

[Dave455]

As Shaw said, " England and America are two countries separated by the same language."
So, it looks like the world is separated by the Metric system.

That’s a fact!

Except of course, that it need not have been that way.

After the war, the U.K and U.S.A. (and Canada) got together and agreed to adopt a common system, namely Unified!

I think we can safely say that this was acceptable to all parties concerned. Even if we did have to buy new spanners in the U.K, at least the numbers were familiar.

Then the “common market” reared it’s ugly head and we started going metric, and of course accountants from big corporations in the U.S. realised they could save a few cents by doing the same.

It could have been so easy…!

I’m always very envious of the aviation world where engineers can get by with just one set of tools (for the most part - I do have a pair of aircraft wheels with 7/16 BSF bolts in my shop at present….)

 

[DAustin]

That’s a fact!

Except of course, that it need not have been that way.

After the war, the U.K and U.S.A. (and Canada) got together and agreed to adopt a common system, namely Unified!

I think we can safely say that this was acceptable to all parties concerned. Even if we did have to buy new spanners in the U.K, at least the numbers were familiar.

Then the “common market” reared it’s ugly head and we started going metric, and of course accountants from big corporations in the U.S. realised they could save a few cents by doing the same.

It could have been so easy…!

I’m always very envious of the aviation world where engineers can get by with just one set of tools (for the most part - I do have a pair of aircraft wheels with 7/16 BSF bolts in my shop at present….)

I really don't have a problem with metric tools, I just can't wrap my head around any of the other metric measurements.

 

[d42jeep]

I found another Superslim wrench in my toolbox of miscellaneous tools. Apparently a previous owner felt that one end needed to be enlarged.


I found another wrench that answers all sides of the Continental wrench controversy. This wrench covers every base except maybe being metric.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Apparently not useful in Hawaii, or in Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, or the Northern Marianas.

 

[Tostal]

I finally got around to gathering together and snapping my TW Superslims and related spanners (wrenches). Starting with Whitworth/BSF, more photos to follow later....


Sizes from top down :-
11/16W 3/4BSF x 13/16W 15/16BSF (x2)
5/8W 11/16BSF x 3/4W 7/8BSF (x2)
1/2W 9/16BSF x 9/16W 5/8BSF (heated and bent to suit some purpose )
1/2W 9/16BSF x 9/16W 5/8BSF (plated, one jaw filed out to larger size... )
3/8W 7/16BSF x 7/16W 1/2BSF
1/4W 5/16BSF x 5/16W 3/8W (x2)
1/8W 3/16BSF x 3/16W 1/4BSF

~Tostal