Available at one of the Dutch online shops I use:
€9.03 including VAT.
Don’t think they ship abroad, but the availability suggests there is still stock floating around somewhere.
The Facom Tools Thread.
- Thread starter Dave455
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€9.03 including VAT.
Don’t think they ship abroad, but the availability suggests there is still stock floating around somewhere.
Faced with a requirement to replace the drop links on my daily driver, I found myself needing a very slim 18mm open ender.
Given that this is obviously a fairly common requirement, I’m surprised how many manufacturers don’t offer these tools.
In the end, it came down to a choice between Snap On at £52 or Facom No. 31 at £16. The latter option won.
Not quite as nice as the older French made versions I own, but still a nice tool. The pattern adds strength where it’s needed, to compensate for the thin profile.
Given that this is obviously a fairly common requirement, I’m surprised how many manufacturers don’t offer these tools.
In the end, it came down to a choice between Snap On at £52 or Facom No. 31 at £16. The latter option won.
Not quite as nice as the older French made versions I own, but still a nice tool. The pattern adds strength where it’s needed, to compensate for the thin profile.
Balog
Well-known member
Ah ok that makes sense.
This is the US Amazon listing, does it look legit? It says it ships from UK Amazon but I couldn’t find the same listing on the actual UK Amazon site so it seems weird.
Qualitytools
Well-known member
I purchased the 76 set a while back, (can’t remember) from which vendor or which Amazon. I prefer the 76 series because one end is 6 point and the other is 12. The best of both.
Probably this one:
Amazon labels are incredibly bad. The people (or AI these days?) who write them have no knowledge of the subject matter. One day they’re listing tools, the next Wi-Fi routers (I’m sure they know equally little about those). Half the work is deciphering what is being sold.
No excusing Amazon, but in case of these pipe wrenches - they really don't have a very commonly used English name so it's even more of a problem. I've seen it called socket wrench many times, but that just sounds very wrong to me somehow.
But they put the 6 point on the long end which I think you wouldn’t really use that much because then you got no leverage since your trying to turn it by the short side.
it looked like a weird mix to me tbh I would think do the opposite and put the 12 on the long side since you won’t be using that as much
I think it's because having 12 positions on the short end means you can adjust your longer lever better than having only 6. So if you do need the extra "grip" of the 6 sided one, you can flip it and use a pipe on the short lever.
However I don't find an issue with my fully-6 sided models.
New set of the standard XL wrenches.
I had the "old" ones for a couple of months. It is interesting how the finish on them changed to slightly more matte compared to brand new. Seems they "age" nicely.
Got a bunch of these now (also in the shiny and grippy USAG flavour) and a couple of the "standard" 440 versions.
Certainly my preferred type of wrenches now. For sure sometimes short ones come in handy, but overall these are just so nice to use most of the time.
New set of the standard XL wrenches.
I had the "old" ones for a couple of months. It is interesting how the finish on them changed to slightly more matte compared to brand new. Seems they "age" nicely.
Got a bunch of these now (also in the shiny and grippy USAG flavour) and a couple of the "standard" 440 versions.
Certainly my preferred type of wrenches now. For sure sometimes short ones come in handy, but overall these are just so nice to use most of the time.
Beautiful wrenches. Could you please do a side by side photo of the 440XL and the regular 440? I am wondering how much longer the XL series is.
You can see the 8mm size standard 440 on the top of the last photo. I'll try to remember to take a photo when I get back home tomorrow. It's actually not such a huge difference, I think around 10-15mm.
I am curious why you got a second set. You weren’t curious what another brand of similar-spec spanners was like, if you needed two sets of similar spanners? (None of my business of course.)
Looks like the set skips 12 mm? Grr. Very intriguing otherwise.
I have a couple of workshops at home and it makes it easier to carry them over that way. Also often you just need two of the same size to hold the nut. For what I paid (~82€) it was just hard to skip this deal, I'm not sure which other set of wrenches available here in Europe would have remotely similar quality for under 100€. If I was in the US I'd probably want to try out the Wright wrenches, and I really like my imperial set of Williams wrenches for sure, but they're two or three times more to get them here.
Really bummed up about the 12mm cause I have Japanese cars and bikes I work on. The USAG anti slip set has it. Can't seem to find it individually on the Facom site at all.
I wonder why Facom left out the 12 mm while including 15 mm and 16 mm in this eight-piece set.
Surely more people have a need for 12 mm than 15 mm or even 16 mm? And those larger spanners also cost more to make than a 12 mm, so it’s not to save money or reduce the price of the set.
Maybe they discovered that, although that’s true (if it is), the people who want long spanners are more interested in using them on larger sizes like 15 mm and 16 mm?
I wondered if maybe they wanted to force many customers to buy a 12 mm separately, but as you say, the 12 mm doesn’t seem to exist (yet?).
Also, compare the sizes included in your 440XL eight-piece set and the 440 eight-piece set:
440XL:
8 • 10 • 13 • 14 • 15 • 16 • 17 • 19 mm
440:
8 • 10 • 11 • 12 • 13 • 14 • 17 • 19mm
Curious stuff.
Surely more people have a need for 12 mm than 15 mm or even 16 mm? And those larger spanners also cost more to make than a 12 mm, so it’s not to save money or reduce the price of the set.
Maybe they discovered that, although that’s true (if it is), the people who want long spanners are more interested in using them on larger sizes like 15 mm and 16 mm?
I wondered if maybe they wanted to force many customers to buy a 12 mm separately, but as you say, the 12 mm doesn’t seem to exist (yet?).
Also, compare the sizes included in your 440XL eight-piece set and the 440 eight-piece set:
440XL:
8 • 10 • 13 • 14 • 15 • 16 • 17 • 19 mm
440:
8 • 10 • 11 • 12 • 13 • 14 • 17 • 19mm
Curious stuff.
I’d be interested in a photo of a 440 spanner beside a 440XL too, F-22, if you can find the time and energy to make and upload one. I know I can read the specs, but with all the features on these spanners I find it hard to really visualise the difference.
16mm is very common on French cars, 15mm common on German. I’ve never used a 12mm.
I'll try to take a photo today, forgot about it the other day as I usually only go read through the forum in the morning (in the office at work
).12mm is the default size for M8 in JIS (japanese industrial standard) and you find it on most Japanese vehicles. They are also almost always flanged nuts and bolts.
The 440 set is way smarter for my needs. 15 and 16 I need only very rarely.
Wish they at least offered a 12mm option, it is very weird they don't. And even if/when they offer it, I won't be able to use it in the supplied wrench holder (the holder is quite nice but you can only fit the correct wrench in each opening, so I couldn't fit a 12mm instead of the 15 or 16).
Found this cool photo of the cross section of these wrenches:
Qualitytools
Well-known member
12mm is very common on Japanese products.
Hmm. I wouldn’t call 15 mm “common” on anything except bicycles (wheel axle nuts, pedals, cone flats in some bearings). But I haven’t got nearly as much experience on cars as a lot of you here.
16 mm is common on modern cars but more so for pretty involved jobs.
But if they’re common, why doesn’t the 440 eight-piece set include 15 and 16 mm? That difference between the two sets is interesting to me.
M8 flanged bolts on Japanese machinery of all sorts tend to have 12 mm flats, and such bolts are common, at least on the slightly older stuff I come across (nothing under ten years old … maybe things have changed there?).
My 2020 Toyota certainly uses 12mm. I've seen a lot of them in the engine bay, and also I know for sure the engine oil plug is for a 12mm wrench (did oil maintenance for the first time myself this year since it's out of warranty, and I was happy to see that instead of some torx/allen stuff that my previous French car had - not that big of a difference but I like it when they keep it simple when things work, for example I noticed the oil filler cap is also just a screw-on design while practically all European cars would have a half-turn spring loaded cap - now, I think there are some very valid reasons for what the European cars use, it prevents you from oertorquing it and squishing the gasket, but overall if the mechanic is mindful then the simple screw on cap is perfectly fine).
I’ve seen a lot of 15mm on suspension components for golf’s, polos etc. Also American fords.
This is exactly the point I was making. Different markets use different sizes. I’ve never worked on anything Japanese, so have never used 12mm. I know they exist, I just don’t use them.
Fairly similar to the cross-section of my Stahlwille 13 Open Box spanners except the width varies along the length. They should be pretty light spanners, which is nice. Though the filled section right in the middle where the stress is on average the lowest (if both ends are used equally, which isn’t quite true obviously) is a bit annoying to a purist. Not that filling that section would add much stiffness or strength even if was where it was most needed, since almost all the load is borne by the top and bottom of the I-beam shape (letter before J), but it adds weight. But that filled section is short.
They’re definitely an interesting design. So was the 440 when it arrived. Both the 440 and 440XL have that slight offset on the ring end too (plus the cranked handle there).
Looks like three of us replied at the same time about Japanese 12 mm heads. My point is mostly that the smaller sizes are more often used by hobbiests and tinkerers who might be the main market for a small set of spanners with “skipped” sizes. Sure, pro car mechanics nowadays need nearly all sizes, since the competing standards and globalised nature of the car industry have left us with a mess. But a lot of us do small jobs but not big jobs on vehicles, or don’t work on vehicles but something else, etc.
It’s a bit of a mystery!
I can understand the 16mm.
16 and 18 are standard ISO sizes, and even German manufacturers (e.g. BMW) have replaced 17 and 19 with them, but I would expect to find an 18 too.
12’s go with 14’s on Japanese cars so including both would seem sensible. 15’s are an American size, seldom encountered in Europe, but you can find them on things like belt tensioners.
If I was putting together an 8 wrench set for the European market I’d probably include 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19.
If you buy Chinese,they have every size from 8 to 19 ,all for around $20................at least thats what I paid the other week for plain combi s on special..........kid on the counter says no one under 50 buys plain combis anymore,its all ratchets.
The 7XL is one of Gedore’s better lines in my opinion, though I don’t generally like Gedore stuff. Very over rated mostly. The 7XL will work just fine, but are not finished to quite the same standard as the Facom
Over time, I’m sure Facom will fill the gaps in their 440 XL range.
Till then, the larger sizes are available from Facom in the sligtly older style 40L.
There is also the option of the offset end No. 41, which I think is available in most sizes.
Consider also Elora. Nicer finished than Gedore.
With Elora, the standard length combination wrench is the 203.
the long is 203 XL.
and the offset is the 205.
But… the offset 205 is the default for Elora - they offer these in every size from 5mm to 80mm, and SAE and Whitworth. The selection of the others is more limited.Where I am in the U.K. I see the Elora used by a lot of Farmers, and the local agricultural supplier stocks them. They do seem to last well.
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Maybe they tried to make the 440XL set complement the 440 set, assuming many owners will already have the latter. So tried not to duplicate sizes as much as possible.
Though that still doesn’t explain the 18 mm situation.
Yeah, that sounds sensible to me too.
But I have personally come around to the view that I shouldn’t often buy sets at all. A lot of my tool purchases now are for convenience, certainly with spanners. I don’t need every size in every set of spanners I own, and often buying sets doesn’t even save as much money over multiple singles as you might expect. If you can skip even one size in the set, you can often save money buying the singles instead.
Though Facom is maybe an exception, because they spend a lot of effort on the box / storage / holder part of the sets. You usually get a genuinely useful container of some sort if you buy the set.
Well, let’s examine those Gedore 7XL sets:
6104880 (eight-piece):
8 • 9 • 10 • 11 • 13 • 14 • 17 • 19 mm
Still no 12 mm. No 15 mm that I personally use (for bicycles), which is included in the 440XL set. No 16 mm that the 440XL set also includes. But you get 9 and 11 mm that I rarely use. Overall, this set is worse for me than the 440XL set (but obviously might be better for you). However, the “size range” you mention is exactly the same, 8 to 19 mm, so you must have been considering one of the sets below.
•••••
6104960 (eleven-piece):
8 • 10 • 11 • 12 • 13 • 14 • 16 • 17 • 18 • 19 • 22 mm
Wider size range and includes 12 mm. Skips 15 mm. About €180 at an online shop I use: more than twice the price of the eight-piece 440XL set at the same shop. Does look useful.
•••••
6095950 (twelve-piece):
10 • 11 • 12 • 13 • 14 • 17 • 19 • 22 • 24 • 27 • 30 • 32 mm
Too many enormous sizes for most of us. No 8, 15, 16, 18 mm. €450.
Andres26tnt
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It's not really a mystery why they don't include a 12mm. This set is primarily sold in Europe, so they are only going to be concerned with common EU sizes. The full sets are available though MAC and Sidchrome 8 to 19 or 8 to 24mm if I remember correctly. Both will cost you around 200$ to 350$. I would say the Mac is a good values if you get the BOGO that includes the SAE full set. At 200ish without shipping and taxes for the SID is not a good deal. Much rather just pay extra for the Mac bogo
I like the matte finish on Gedore. I tried checking Elora, no distribution where I live. Also checked on Amazon.de, not available there either.
That's the set I was considering. It's €140 on Amazon.de. The best price I could find for Facom's 440XL.JP8PB is around €90. I guess it's down to these two for me. I have the standard length 440 wrenches and I really like them, but I am keen to try something different for the long ones. If Stahlwille had a wrench like the Gedore 7XL or Facom's 440XL - without the deep offset - I would buy those in a heartbeat.
And yet here I am in Europe needing a 12 mm. How can it be?
Besides, why does the 440 set include 12 mm by this logic?
That cannot be the reason. And I’m sure it’s not random either. I think Facom either identified something in their market research to support these different set contents, or they inferred something – perhaps mistakenly but probably not – or they designed the set with other sets in mind including their own sets, the other Stanley B&D brands, the competition’s sets, and what they think people already have in their toolboxes.
I am always curious about decisions like these. If I ran a company, I would have someone write blog entries describing the marketing and product design decisions. That wouldn’t cost much, would inform the scads of influencers (YouTube channels, etc.) that now dominate the conversation about new product launches, and would make my company look more tuned-in to the market than the competition. I don’t know why they’re not all doing this. Low-hanging fruit …
Andres26tnt
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The 440 is sold world wide, I also lived in Europe never needed a 12mm. Only time was when I bought my MR2 turbo Toyota. the 440 also is one of the oldest wrench sets they sell(compared to the XL). This is a common practice but the way. Almost every manufacturer/company Tailors wrench sets to the market. Why do sets in Japan skip, why usa, why insert country. Very simple answer.
Maybe 11 too. Very rare nowadays, but M7 is probably most common on German vehicles, especially a bit older. From outside of Europe it is even way more rare to encounter M7.
I'd go for something else then, Gedore overall isn't that nice in my opinion. Pricey for what they offer.
Toyota actually has a big manufacturing facility in France (where Facom is from too). I think they make the Corolla, Auris, Aygo and the Yaris there, maybe some other too. Toyota is the largest car manufacturer in the world and by sales the second even on the otherwise very "domestic" European market. Only VW sells more in Europe than Toyota. This is ignoring brand-conglomerates, cause of course VAG and others sell more with all of their companies in total...
Andres26tnt
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Y'all overthinking this, it's a EU company that mostly sell to Europeans. Like I mentioned most companies will Tailor products to the market. It's a common practice.
Yaris Cross … probably a lot of them, judging by how popular they have become. Also the Mazda 2 (but that’s just a rebadged Yaris).
Japanese companies also sell a lot of scooters and motorcycles across Europe, whether made here (mainly Italy I guess) or elsewhere. It’s not like the Japanese situation where hardly anyone needs a 13 mm spanner because European vehicles practically don’t exist. There are millions of Japanese vehicles in Europe.
I agree with you. I like the simplicity of Japanese cars, especially stuff in the engine bay. I understand why the Europeans are always hunting for a ‘better’ way to do things, but you gave a great example of something I just don’t think needs improving, or if it does, not on my own vehicles thanks very much. (Though I thought the point of those spring-loaded caps with a hard travel limit was mainly to prevent the cap being too tight to easily remove after a few hundred heat cycles.)
I’d love to see up close and personal how American vehicles are designed. I have some vague ideas, but not about the details like this, because even on forums like this one, no-one talks about them. Your comments are fun because you’re a very close observer of mechanical things.
I swapped heads on my Thailand made Ford ,and just about every nut on the head was 12mm ..........in fact I bought two more 12 mm combis for the job.,in addition to the sockets and rings I already had...............One thing I noticed about the engine,not a single nut or stud was rusted ,even the exhaust pipe nuts and bolts were some king of stainless ,as were all the turbo fasteners..............I was expecting trouble with rusted and broken studs ......no problem at all.
Sure but it's wrenches. Just a little bummed they don't even offer a whole range - set or not. Especially sonce all the sizes are clearly being manufactured in the 441XL version.
Thanks, that is very flattering to me. I have very limited experience with American vehicles here in Europe. Even our John Deere tractors historically come from Germany, and US cars werenever big here.
There is one clear difference even when it comes to companies like "European" Ford where you see American influence. Japanese and American (and Korean) cars will generally always use wheel studs and lug nuts. European cars almost always use lug bolts.
I'm a bit pessimistic regarding European cars. For all the talk about German engineering, the cars are designed give the owner a percieved high quality feel while everything beyond that is made to be absolutely as cheap as possible, squeezed out to the last cent. How much can a company realistically save by using a lug bolt instead of a nut? Practically nothing, it just makes it more annoying when fitting wheels but they don't give any car regarding that, because European cars aren't supposed to be serviced by the owner anyway.
My old Relault Clio 3 - removing half the bottom to gain access to the drain plug and sticking my hand up in the guts of the engine somewhere at the side to reach the oil filter, positioned so it drips hot oil down to your elbow if you remove it without the factory tool. Of course the drain plug uses some proprietary rubber-oring-metal hybrid gasket that gets destroyed upon every change and the screw has some tiny inside-drive that wears out if you reuse it. On the Yaris - jack the car up a bit at the front right wheel, the drain plug sticks out to the side so it does not drip while you remove it. Oil filter on the bottom right next to it, pointing upwards so nothing drips. 15-20 min job even without a lift or any special tools. The oil pan is alloy not sheet steel, and has a surprisingly long thread for the drain bolt (guess that can help with preventing it from stripping, and sealing better?). The gasket was (most surprisingly to me) a very regular copper washer.
Probably very unfair to even compare my '97 Toyota Land Cruiser Diesel here. That was just the best time for quality and reliability with relatively modern comforts. Tall enough that you don't even need to raise it up anyway. It does use a lot of oil, but the replacement is super simple. Everything made to be super reliable. Alternator and AC have separate belts, both are powered by 2 V belts so if one snaps the other still runs. It has two batteries "just to be sure". I can disconnect both batteries and could still start it with a pull rope in a pinch.
I do own a Shovelhead but I haven't wrenches on it much yet. Project waiting for its time... I think people judge Harleys too much. They have some well known issues but many parts are clearly made to very high standards. Hard to fault the paint or chrome quality for sure. I think the US Imperial thread standard is just a very bad thing for Harley - the standard pitch is overall coarser than regular metric pitch. That probably makes them unscrew easier from vibrations. The finer threads used in the engine are usually fine, the engine does not rattle itself apart, but the rest of the fasteners that have near wood-screw-like threads are just a very bad design choice. But using finer threads everywhere would probably be weird at the time. To be fair mine is from the late AMF days, so it is about "as bad as they come", the bikes that started all those Harley stereotypes. I do like the power delivery, and I don't mind the handling at all.
I do wish to have one of the classic quality made American cars, regardless of cost here, but most are just too big to really be usable here.
Andres26tnt
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I agree, I'm also bummed about it. It's not like they don't make them at all. They should have a complete set already. I've herd from a mac dealer, they are getting rid of the 440xl/mac pt in favor of the rbrt with 12pt box ends. Not sure how true that is.
rooster59
Well-known member
The only wrench I have that looks like new is a 9mm. Have to keep as it’s needed for the waste gate pivot bolts in a turbonic venturi power assimilator. Obviously