The Ratchet Collection Thread
- Thread starter twertsy
- Start date
Today we are going to move to Mankato, MN and check out some Truth Tool examples, and then move into Chicago.
These Truth branded ratchets are relatively rare. The 2 1/2" drive examples are fairly common and made from the late '30's to the late 40's. I'm not confident on dating the 3/4" drive but they were not present in the '31 catalog. The '31 catalog is the earliest I have that shows ratchets, sockets and drive tools. The 1/2" drive ratchets in that catalog match the style of the 3/4" drive in this post, but their smaller 3/8" drive offerings had round shanks that "squared off" near the head, and the head is round style as well.
Most examples of the 1/2" drive ratchet shown have the "BS" forge mark. We have yet to identify that drop forger so if anyone has thoughts on who that might represent, please share.
From top to bottom:
- 1/2" drive reversible ratchet Model R-6 - circa 1940's
- 1/2" drive reversible ratchet - no Model number but same as R-6 - late 30's to early 40's
- 3/4" drive reversible ratchet - no Model number - unknown dating.
These Truth branded ratchets are relatively rare. The 2 1/2" drive examples are fairly common and made from the late '30's to the late 40's. I'm not confident on dating the 3/4" drive but they were not present in the '31 catalog. The '31 catalog is the earliest I have that shows ratchets, sockets and drive tools. The 1/2" drive ratchets in that catalog match the style of the 3/4" drive in this post, but their smaller 3/8" drive offerings had round shanks that "squared off" near the head, and the head is round style as well.
Most examples of the 1/2" drive ratchet shown have the "BS" forge mark. We have yet to identify that drop forger so if anyone has thoughts on who that might represent, please share.
From top to bottom:
- 1/2" drive reversible ratchet Model R-6 - circa 1940's
- 1/2" drive reversible ratchet - no Model number but same as R-6 - late 30's to early 40's
- 3/4" drive reversible ratchet - no Model number - unknown dating.
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Username already in use
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I did just pick up an early non reversible Duro ratchet with removable drive plug. I haven't had a chance to clean it up yet, but I can confirm that it has only 16 teeth. It's difficult to make out, but above the drive plug, it reads 'CHICAGO, U.S.A.' and below the drive plug reads 'LICENSED UNDER PAT NO.
I know we're about to move onto Chicago production, so... here's some pics:
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Username already in use
Well-known member
Some nice TRUTH ratchets, Todd!
Any chance that the B.S. forge mark could be Billings and Spencer?
Ok, on we go southeast into Chicago land. This review is going to take some time, so I will start with Bog and then attempt to tackle Duro and Indestro today.
There is very little information on Bog Manufacturing. We know they existed in 1927, but it is possible that they began around 1919 / 1920 due to a report that Mr. Pepperdine leased a 6 story building in Chicago in 1919. See what little Bog research I have here.
Bog Ratchets from top to bottom:
- 1/2" drive open gear reversible ratchet - no Model number - early 1930's.
- 1/2" drive open gear reversible ratchet - Model 202 - dated 4-34
- 1/2" drive, Plomb branded ratchet - based on Pepperdine patent 1888885 - Model WF-38 - 1942-1948
- 1/2" drive, - based on Pepperdine patent 1888885 - Model 202A - dated 9-34
There is very little information on Bog Manufacturing. We know they existed in 1927, but it is possible that they began around 1919 / 1920 due to a report that Mr. Pepperdine leased a 6 story building in Chicago in 1919. See what little Bog research I have here.
Bog Ratchets from top to bottom:
- 1/2" drive open gear reversible ratchet - no Model number - early 1930's.
- 1/2" drive open gear reversible ratchet - Model 202 - dated 4-34
- 1/2" drive, Plomb branded ratchet - based on Pepperdine patent 1888885 - Model WF-38 - 1942-1948
- 1/2" drive, - based on Pepperdine patent 1888885 - Model 202A - dated 9-34
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woody 73
Well-known member
I thought (key word here) that I had it bad (tool sickness) but alas my tiny collection is but a pittance to your collection twertsy...Just over the top in the WOW factor.
Keep posting pictures of all that great tool ****!
Keep posting pictures of all that great tool ****!
These are the earliest Duro / Indestro ratchets as far as I'm aware. The two pressed steel ratchets are examples of those tiny hex drive socket holder sets that Duro and Indestro pumped out to hardware stores everywhere. One is marked and, as with most, the other is not. However, these both came directly out of their clips/holders, both marked Indestro.
Top to Bottom:
- Duro 1/2" drive Model 672 "Patent Pending" refers to patent #1798481, applied for in 10/28 and awarded 3/31. Thus we date it between those patent dates.
- Indestro 1/2"? hex drive - 30's to at least late 50's (the question mark is because I get .5125 on both openings)
- Last 2 pics are of one I found after the fact. This one is an example of the top Model 672 ratchet but with the patent number, dating it post 1931.
Top to Bottom:
- Duro 1/2" drive Model 672 "Patent Pending" refers to patent #1798481, applied for in 10/28 and awarded 3/31. Thus we date it between those patent dates.
- Indestro 1/2"? hex drive - 30's to at least late 50's (the question mark is because I get .5125 on both openings)
- Last 2 pics are of one I found after the fact. This one is an example of the top Model 672 ratchet but with the patent number, dating it post 1931.
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Next up are the non-reversible drive plug 3202 style ratchets. These are all based on patent #1902878. As a side note, the handle is covered under patent #1868840. The handle patent was applied for in 07/1930 and awarded 07/1932. These all date from the early 30's through most of the 40's.
From top to bottom:
- 3/8" female drive ratchet Model 2888 - 22 teeth
- 1/2" female drive ratchet Model 3202 - On the face it says "Chicago, U.S.A." above the drive hole, and "Licensed under Pat. No. 1902878." On the reverse it simply has "No. 3202" stamped into the face and "oil" next to the oil hole. 16 teeth
- 1/2" female drive ratchet Model 3202 - On the face it says "Pat. No. 1902878" and "Oil" near the oil hole. (NOTE: see the last two pics -- does anyone else see stamped letters just below the top lip on the handle? - 16 teeth
- 1/2" female drive Indestro-Super ratchet Model 3202 - On the face it says "3202 Indestro-Super" and "Oil" near the oil hole. On the reverse face is stamped "Pat. No. 1902878." 18 teeth.
From top to bottom:
- 3/8" female drive ratchet Model 2888 - 22 teeth
- 1/2" female drive ratchet Model 3202 - On the face it says "Chicago, U.S.A." above the drive hole, and "Licensed under Pat. No. 1902878." On the reverse it simply has "No. 3202" stamped into the face and "oil" next to the oil hole. 16 teeth
- 1/2" female drive ratchet Model 3202 - On the face it says "Pat. No. 1902878" and "Oil" near the oil hole. (NOTE: see the last two pics -- does anyone else see stamped letters just below the top lip on the handle? - 16 teeth
- 1/2" female drive Indestro-Super ratchet Model 3202 - On the face it says "3202 Indestro-Super" and "Oil" near the oil hole. On the reverse face is stamped "Pat. No. 1902878." 18 teeth.
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These are the female reversible style with driveplug. All date from the mid-1930s to about 1950.
From top to bottom:
- Patent number stamped under selector - 18 teeth
- Patent number stamped under selector - "No. 3202-R" stamped on face - 18 teeth
- No markings whatsoever - 18 teeth
- Patent number stamped under selector - 18 teeth
- Patent number stamped under selector - Model "4490 Duro-Chrome" stamped on the face - 20 teeth
From top to bottom:
- Patent number stamped under selector - 18 teeth
- Patent number stamped under selector - "No. 3202-R" stamped on face - 18 teeth
- No markings whatsoever - 18 teeth
- Patent number stamped under selector - 18 teeth
- Patent number stamped under selector - Model "4490 Duro-Chrome" stamped on the face - 20 teeth
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four.cycle
Well-known member
twertsy:
The bottom ratchet in post #52 with the depressed panel on the shank: is that a model 3201?
If so, that is the first one I've seen with that handle design.
The drive plug for the 1/2" drive ratchet with the knurled "mushroom" head was a 3215 Indestro. Not sure what the Duro Chrome part number was.
The stamped steel hex drive models shown in post #49 were still in production at least until 1959, as they appear in that year's catalog in the #1454 and #1454MM kits that came in the stamped steel wall-hanging holder.
I'll have to revise that list I made in the "Duro Ratchet" thread and include those earlier models.
The two bottom ratchets in the first photo in post #51 remain something of a mystery. I've posted images in the "Duro Ratchet" thread of those models, none of which have any manufacturer's name or part number.
The bottom ratchet in post #52 with the depressed panel on the shank: is that a model 3201?
If so, that is the first one I've seen with that handle design.
The drive plug for the 1/2" drive ratchet with the knurled "mushroom" head was a 3215 Indestro. Not sure what the Duro Chrome part number was.
The stamped steel hex drive models shown in post #49 were still in production at least until 1959, as they appear in that year's catalog in the #1454 and #1454MM kits that came in the stamped steel wall-hanging holder.
I'll have to revise that list I made in the "Duro Ratchet" thread and include those earlier models.
The two bottom ratchets in the first photo in post #51 remain something of a mystery. I've posted images in the "Duro Ratchet" thread of those models, none of which have any manufacturer's name or part number.
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four.cycle
Well-known member
I'll get that list in the other thread revised and photograph the "ratchet" pages from all the catalogs.
I think I've got some more old catalog pages with "BOG" stuff in them. I ran into another batch of stuff and am still downloading it. Will forward them to you when I manage to get through it all. BK
I think I've got some more old catalog pages with "BOG" stuff in them. I ran into another batch of stuff and am still downloading it. Will forward them to you when I manage to get through it all. BK
Derek420
Banned
Wow twertsy no wonder I cannot find any ratchets at flea markets you've been up and down whole east coast and bought them all lol... Kidding aside I really think that it's because they are among the first items that sell and booths I see never have new stock. I absolutely love your bullet handle art deco black hawks I'm on the hunt even on eBay. Also to whom owns the SK roto stuff one what a nice find I'm dying for one of those as well I only have the other SK roto and I love it as it was my fathers and my go to ratchets. I just love the old tools they just got that look and that nostalgic feel. Love to think about the story behind them like who used them and where. I ran into an 80ish old woman who said she had a shed full of old tools that we're her husbands and said she had so many tools she didn't know what to do with them all. I wish I would have got name or address and went hunting but the flea market had a huge tool Booth I was digging in and was carried away. Didn't find nothing..
davethorik
Well-known member
Since you mentioned Truth ratchets...I've looked for a while and haven't seen one like this. My mom actually bought it for me at a flea market because she thought it looked cool.
1/2 drive, push thru plug (non-removeable), 27 teeth, 10-7/8" oal.
One side says -TRUTH-, opposite side TRUTH TOOL CO. MANKATO MINN. No other markings or a pn.
1/2 drive, push thru plug (non-removeable), 27 teeth, 10-7/8" oal.
One side says -TRUTH-, opposite side TRUTH TOOL CO. MANKATO MINN. No other markings or a pn.
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davethorik
Well-known member
Cool, when I first posted this to GJ all i got was crickets. Figured nobody knew about them. Nice to have a ballpark on age.
d42jeep
Well-known member
Here are a couple more Duro and Indestro ratchets. Even though one is 1/4" and the other is 3/8" the heads are the same size and both have 20 teeth.
-Don
-Don
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r_olson_06
Well-known member
That ratchet is amazing. Thanks for sharing. Being so close to mankato there is next to no truth around here.
Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk
actually just passed up a couple of these in favor of some keystone s wrenches... I figured they were just cheap pressed ratchets, didn't even read the brand...
four.cycle
Well-known member
d42jeep said:
see: Indestro 2888 and 2889
see: Duro Chrome 4487 and 4488 and 4489
"Duro Ratchet?" thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36699
posts # 7, 9, 14, 20, 36, 50, 62, 63, 64, 80
It would appear they were making both the 1/4" and 3/8" square female drive ratchets from the same blank.
Note the difference in handles in post #80 of that thread.
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Ok, continuing on with the Duro / Indestro ratchets. This style is the non-removable drive reversible. Perhaps Brian can chime in on dating since "somebody" hasn't sent me scans of catalogs yet......
From top to bottom:
- 1/4" drive branded Wards Master Model 84-4758
- 1/4" drive Duro-Chrome Model 4487 with female receptor on the reverse
- 3/8" drive Western Auto Wizard Model HR-2775
- 1/2" drive Western Auto Westcraft no Model number
- 1/2" drive Wards Master Quality Model HR-4860
- 1/2" drive Indestro Super Model 3201 (x2)
- 1/2" drive unbranded Model 680 (bottom ratchet Brian)
From top to bottom:
- 1/4" drive branded Wards Master Model 84-4758
- 1/4" drive Duro-Chrome Model 4487 with female receptor on the reverse
- 3/8" drive Western Auto Wizard Model HR-2775
- 1/2" drive Western Auto Westcraft no Model number
- 1/2" drive Wards Master Quality Model HR-4860
- 1/2" drive Indestro Super Model 3201 (x2)
- 1/2" drive unbranded Model 680 (bottom ratchet Brian)
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Here we'll move on to the round head style, all based on patent #2686582. Again, need a little help on dating these.
From top to bottom:
- Wizard 3/8" drive Model H-2775
- Indestro 3/8" drive Model 2775A
- Wizard 1/2" drive Model H2833 (x4)
- WardMaster 1/2" drive Model I84-4860-R
- Duro-Chrome 1/2" drive Model 675
- Wizard 1/2" drive Model H2833
From top to bottom:
- Wizard 3/8" drive Model H-2775
- Indestro 3/8" drive Model 2775A
- Wizard 1/2" drive Model H2833 (x4)
- WardMaster 1/2" drive Model I84-4860-R
- Duro-Chrome 1/2" drive Model 675
- Wizard 1/2" drive Model H2833
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And last but not least from Duro-Indestro, the pear head design which I happen to really like. I believe I have found the patent #4277990 (click the Images link). This patent was awarded in July of 1981.
From top to bottom:
- Wizard 1/4" Drive Model H-2750
- Duro-Chrome 3/8" Drive Model 4472
- Westline 3/8" Drive No model number
- Indestro 3/8" Drive Model 6272 (x5)
- Wizard 1/2" Drive Model 2831
From top to bottom:
- Wizard 1/4" Drive Model H-2750
- Duro-Chrome 3/8" Drive Model 4472
- Westline 3/8" Drive No model number
- Indestro 3/8" Drive Model 6272 (x5)
- Wizard 1/2" Drive Model 2831
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northwoods
Well-known member
AA has some more information on Bog, Western Auto, and Plomb.
northwoods
Well-known member
Wow! What a collection. They all look Plombish to me.
four.cycle
Well-known member
List of Indestro ratchets from catalogs I currently have: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6086056#post6086056
See notes at bottom of that list. That's as close as I can get to a rough guess on dates of manufacture.
The 680 model (post # 66, first photo, bottom) is obviously Duro-Chrome, because Indestro was using a 4-digit part number. Duro-Chrome appears to have used a 3-digit part number for the earlier pressed-flange ratchets (i.e., 677, 678, 680, etc.)
The pear-head models (6072, 6272, and 6472) appear in the 1972 catalog, but I know they were produced prior to that because we had them in the warehouse when I started doing the buying in 1971.
The 2775A appears in the 1982 catalog as a 60-tooth model (with a 6-point "star wheel" selector), but I know they were produced prior to that because we started seeing them in the late 1970s. I never saw (or heard of) a 2875A or a 3275A until I received that 1982 catalog a couple months ago, so it's reasonable to assume the 2775A was introduced first.
After receiving the 1982 catalog and realizing I'd never seen an Indestro catalog with that cover design, I am thinking that we must have dropped Indestro prior to that, but I'm not sure on that one, because I was working in Yelm from 1977-1981 and we had Indestro up there the entire time, and for some time immediately after, because Jim A. (who we promoted to store manager) moved all the tool boards and hung them up above the front counter (instead of hanging on the back wall.)
I am almost certain there was a catalog printed between the 1972 (No. 55) and the 1982 (No. 60) because there were some new items introduced and I ordered new boards for all the stores. Same cover design as the 1972. I had Dan D. haul all the old boards out behind the warehouse and set them alight - there were so many they wouldn't fit into the dumpster.
See notes at bottom of that list. That's as close as I can get to a rough guess on dates of manufacture.
The 680 model (post # 66, first photo, bottom) is obviously Duro-Chrome, because Indestro was using a 4-digit part number. Duro-Chrome appears to have used a 3-digit part number for the earlier pressed-flange ratchets (i.e., 677, 678, 680, etc.)
The pear-head models (6072, 6272, and 6472) appear in the 1972 catalog, but I know they were produced prior to that because we had them in the warehouse when I started doing the buying in 1971.
The 2775A appears in the 1982 catalog as a 60-tooth model (with a 6-point "star wheel" selector), but I know they were produced prior to that because we started seeing them in the late 1970s. I never saw (or heard of) a 2875A or a 3275A until I received that 1982 catalog a couple months ago, so it's reasonable to assume the 2775A was introduced first.
After receiving the 1982 catalog and realizing I'd never seen an Indestro catalog with that cover design, I am thinking that we must have dropped Indestro prior to that, but I'm not sure on that one, because I was working in Yelm from 1977-1981 and we had Indestro up there the entire time, and for some time immediately after, because Jim A. (who we promoted to store manager) moved all the tool boards and hung them up above the front counter (instead of hanging on the back wall.)
I am almost certain there was a catalog printed between the 1972 (No. 55) and the 1982 (No. 60) because there were some new items introduced and I ordered new boards for all the stores. Same cover design as the 1972. I had Dan D. haul all the old boards out behind the warehouse and set them alight - there were so many they wouldn't fit into the dumpster.
four.cycle
Well-known member
I cringe every time I find some display rack listed on Ebay for some ridiculous price and recall that I tossed dozens of them into the trash at some point.
We had six corporate-owned stores and one independent franchise when we brought the new boards in. As I recall, each store had about 20 boards.
When we got the new boards in we sent them out, and then about a week later had the delivery drivers pick up the old boards and bring them back to the warehouse.
So, doing rough math, that would have been about 140 boards that got torched out behind the warehouse that afternoon. I had a kid rake up all the hooks and metal pieces and throw them into the dumpster.
The real killer, though, was when we repossessed and took possession of the 38th Street store, which had a huge store room added onto it upstairs, which had become a repository for all the old signs, display racks, and mechandisers.
Stuff like the wheeled "Trico" wiper blade carts, old "MacMillan Ring-Free Oil" enameled steel signs, "Niehoff" steel wall cabinets, etc.
We blocked off the parking lot underneath, and Mike and I went up there and opened the windows and tossed all the stuff out, where it landed in the parking lot. It took several trips in a P30 Chevrolet panel delivery truck (the "Elephant Van") to haul it all to the dump.
Great times.
They say hindsight is always 20-20.
We had six corporate-owned stores and one independent franchise when we brought the new boards in. As I recall, each store had about 20 boards.
When we got the new boards in we sent them out, and then about a week later had the delivery drivers pick up the old boards and bring them back to the warehouse.
So, doing rough math, that would have been about 140 boards that got torched out behind the warehouse that afternoon. I had a kid rake up all the hooks and metal pieces and throw them into the dumpster.
The real killer, though, was when we repossessed and took possession of the 38th Street store, which had a huge store room added onto it upstairs, which had become a repository for all the old signs, display racks, and mechandisers.
Stuff like the wheeled "Trico" wiper blade carts, old "MacMillan Ring-Free Oil" enameled steel signs, "Niehoff" steel wall cabinets, etc.
We blocked off the parking lot underneath, and Mike and I went up there and opened the windows and tossed all the stuff out, where it landed in the parking lot. It took several trips in a P30 Chevrolet panel delivery truck (the "Elephant Van") to haul it all to the dump.
Great times.
They say hindsight is always 20-20.
Sam'sAutoParts
Well-known member
Twertsy, I never cease to be amazed by the breadth of your character collection.
My meager contribution for the day. My vintages ratchets that live at work and see use next to my modern snap on ratchets.
New Britain made, my favorite is the long handled Mac 1/2" drive, the close second favorite of the bunch is the 3/8" flex
My Cornwell, I use the hard handle frequently on oil changes, not sure how old it is, I bought it used off eBay a few years ago. The short handle is a recent find, but it has been useful a few times.
My meager contribution for the day. My vintages ratchets that live at work and see use next to my modern snap on ratchets.
New Britain made, my favorite is the long handled Mac 1/2" drive, the close second favorite of the bunch is the 3/8" flex
My Cornwell, I use the hard handle frequently on oil changes, not sure how old it is, I bought it used off eBay a few years ago. The short handle is a recent find, but it has been useful a few times.
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Holy **** Todd and to think that's probably only scratching the surface! Here's my contribution...
Proto/Plomb standard:
Small ones on the left are the numerous variations of the 5249 (1940-70ish), on the lower right are the 5449 (1945-70ish), above those is a stanley made 5450, and the top is the beater 5649.
Bog/Proto:
Not sure on the lowest ratchet, but it came with a bog set so maybe someone has some insight? The drive plug is a bog though.... going upward from there the round head one is a bog non-reversible, 202 open gear, 202a revised sealed head, next two are both penens 1661's, and last is a proto N-38
Proto/Plomb standard:
Small ones on the left are the numerous variations of the 5249 (1940-70ish), on the lower right are the 5449 (1945-70ish), above those is a stanley made 5450, and the top is the beater 5649.
Bog/Proto:
Not sure on the lowest ratchet, but it came with a bog set so maybe someone has some insight? The drive plug is a bog though.... going upward from there the round head one is a bog non-reversible, 202 open gear, 202a revised sealed head, next two are both penens 1661's, and last is a proto N-38
A primer for today; I'll stay in Chicago tackling Hinsdale and beginning the S-K adventure. Because I've been trying to figure out the S-K date codes I have an overabundance of S-K ratchets (probably 70+) and as most are aware, almost all of them are based on the Rueb patent and pretty difficult to date without removing and inspecting the drive mechanism. S-K may consume a few days.
four.cycle
Well-known member
twertsy said:
Alloy-Artifacts mentions that the first 3202 (non-reversible) model was a 16-tooth mechanism, and then later became an 18-tooth model, and then (finally) a 36-tooth model.
I think I mentioned that in that "Duro Ratchet?" thread when I started making the list of models produced by Indestro.
In your post (#50 in this thread) you described:
"1/2" female drive ratchet Model 3202 - On the face it says "Chicago, U.S.A." above the drive hole, and "Licensed under Pat. No. 1902878." On the reverse it simply has "No. 3202" stamped into the face and "oil" next to the oil hole. 16 teeth
- 1/2" female drive ratchet Model 3202 - On the face it says "Pat. No. 1902878" and "Oil" near the oil hole. (NOTE: see the last two pics -- does anyone else see stamped letters just below the top lip on the handle? - 16 teeth
- 1/2" female drive Indestro-Super ratchet Model 3202 - On the face it says "3202 Indestro-Super" and "Oil" near the oil hole. On the reverse face is stamped "Pat. No. 1902878." 18 teeth."
If AA is correct, if everybody here who owns one of those rolled it around and counted the clicks, we'd come up with a mix of 16, 18, and 36-tooth models (all stamped with the same 3202 model number.)
AA doesn't note what year those changes took place, and only the later (1959, 1972, and 1982) catalogs mention "tooth count".
The original patent application (1902878) filed June 16, 1932, shows a drawing with a gear having 16 teeth. That original patent was granted March 28, 1933.
The re-issued patent (RE19341) granted October 16, 1934, also shows a drawing with a gear having 16 teeth.
Is it reasonable to assume they would have made a new drawing if they had redesigned the mechanism?
So apparently there's an "early" and a "middle" and a "late" version of that model number, but it doesn't look like there's any way to determine exactly what the cut-off points were with the available resources.
I don't think that's what AA was trying to say. If I interpreted it correctly, the female non reversible should only have 16, the reversible female had 18 / or later, 36 and the reversible had 36 almost exclusively although, I think there are likely 18 tooth reversibles out there.