The vintage Blackhawk Thread

[drivesitfar]

Sorry Fretters I thought you were making a joke.

Thin on the ground is a new phrase to this old guy.

Seriously I might own a 1,000 sockets and I’m still not positive if the no name ones are Blackhawk or ?? And I think Blackhawk maybe had another company take over its name and make newer tools but I’m not in my tools history mode these days.

 

[Fretters]

Sorry Fretters I thought you were making a joke.

One of those rare occasions where I was actually being serious. I'd always just assumed they were making/supplying tools upto around the 70's or 80's. Didn't realise all tools of theirs were pre 60's.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

They were bought up by new britain tools in 55 I think. New britain just used the name .

 

[Smokeshow69]

One of those rare occasions where I was actually being serious. I'd always just assumed they were making/supplying tools upto around the 70's or 80's. Didn't realise all tools of theirs were pre 60's.

Others up stream didn't give you the full story or made it sound like the brand is dead... it's not. It's currently owned by SBD and still carries the Blackhawk name. Basically, the collectible era, that the guys on here collect lasted into the 50's... then the New Britain Co purchased them....They were bought and sold a number of times but their heyday is considered mid 50's or back.

 

[thehorse13]

One of those rare occasions where I was actually being serious. I'd always just assumed they were making/supplying tools upto around the 70's or 80's. Didn't realise all tools of theirs were pre 60's.

Blackhawk purists are no different than the Indian motorcycle folks. The day that New Britain bought the company in 1955 was the day that it died. The name carried forward through several sales and acquisitions all the way to present day SBD as pointed out by Smokeshow69.

That said, I've noticed that the early stuff has surged in price/popularity the last few years. Anything from 1919 into the mid 1930s is now expensive and much harder to find in the wild.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Here's some pre date code 3/4 drive lock ons

 

[Blackhawkfan]

Here's some pre date code 3/4 drive lock ons

Ahh, here went the nice set that just lately showed up on ebay. I recognise the chip in one socket... Great find and buy! He shurely was not right in describing it as 1" drive. Too sad that the handle bars were gone.

 

[Blackhawkfan]

That said, I've noticed that the early stuff has surged in price/popularity the last few years. Anything from 1919 into the mid 1930s is now expensive and much harder to find in the wild.

You are very right. These days prices seem to explode on Blackhawk sets from before 50s.

To your missing pieces:
I have one universal 3/8" that I need myself and spares/doubles only 7818S and 7820S
The 7814S I am missing too.
But I have one 6618 socket. Oddly this comes with a release button, all my others do have a hole. So do you need the early with hole or the later version with button?

 

[thehorse13]

You are very right. These days prices seem to explode on Blackhawk sets from before 50s.

To your missing pieces:
I have one universal 3/8" that I need myself and spares/doubles only 7818S and 7820S
The 7814S I am missing too.
But I have one 6618 socket. Oddly this comes with a release button, all my others do have a hole. So do you need the early with hole or the later version with button?

I need the early version with the hole. I really appreciate you sifting through your bone pile on my behalf.

 

[Etchase]

I think Stanley stopped manufacturing Blackhawk branded tools a couple years ago and dealers and possibly even Stanley are now just selling off inventory. Some deals were had and some might still be out there. Similar tools are currently branded Expert internationally.

 

[Dave455]

One of those rare occasions where I was actually being serious. I'd always just assumed they were making/supplying tools upto around the 70's or 80's. Didn't realise all tools of theirs were pre 60's.

Blackhawk were incredibly innovative. Many things that we think of as standard today were actually Blackhawk innovations.

Their quality, and styling, was way ahead of anything else. which is why it looks like something from the 60’s or 70’s, when in reality much is from the 40’s and 50’s, even back to the 30’s.

I grew up with Dad using my Grandfathers Blackhawk, but at the time didn’t realise how old it was!

For folks like us from the U.K. it’s obvious that period really was a “golden era” for U.S. manufacturing. Not just Blackhawk, but think about anything else.

Stanley planes from that era are about the best there ever have been. North Bros Yankee screwdrivers were better than anything that came later. It could be argued that Duesenberg cars and Diamond T trucks have not really been bettered since. Faster - yes, longer lasting - we’ll see, better made - not really.

Here’s some classic Blackhawk “Gripline”.


And a gratuitous picture of a Duesenberg Model J.

 

[bmwrd0]

Now, that is a Dussey!

 

[930dreamer]

Going to the coast to pick this up today. Not sure if it's a Blackhawk, someone suggested maybe a Bonney?

 

[y'sguy]

oow, I like it. It's got some cool history with the ghost lettering. I see the Marines part, have you figured out the rest?

 

[930dreamer]

oow, I like it. It's got some cool history with the ghost lettering. I see the Marines part, have you figured out the rest?

I'll have to wait and see it with my peepers. The hinge looks like it's had some repair, but that's ok. Socket tray is an add on.

 

[3baygarage]

Some nice Blackhawk Lock-On was calling my name recently.

9809 1/2” ratchet
9210 rotating grip
9506 speeder

I can’t find my other 9809 ratchet at the moment to compare side by side, however it is different. It has pats. on it while this one is pat pend..

Here’s a 49996 Gripline version and a socket with the release button. It might be time to see how close to a 1/2” set of sockets there is around here. I was happy to get the three pieces together at a reasonable price.
I like the selector on these, reminds me of some ancient shield.

 

[thehorse13]

Here's my big find so far this season. lol. It's a Dodge specific 1116 wrench found in the 1919 Blackhawk catalog. Total cost, one dollar.

 

[z28lsc]

I found these sockets last weekend. The one on the right is a 7/16 drive.

 

[Steven 33]

Anyone have any theories on this one? It has a plaque for an early advertiser and the box has the same date as the walden patent. I have seen the sticker before but only ones, and have never seen one with a plaque like that. The sliding T looks a little different than others ive seen from the same era. My working theory was that it was from the first run before they got slapped with the lawsuit, but im really not sure.

 

[MR.X]

Well, the plaque just seems to be a Detroit tool retailer promoting themselves. Chas Strelinger, Detroit Tool Shop and others did the same, often on Machinists chests.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

@Steven 33
Not sure anything there needs a theory. Everything seems to be consistent with a very early No. 6 set, including the 911 ratchet (vs. 911X), the sliding tee with the hexagonal stock head, and the 'Welded Wrenches' (in reference to their line of fixed socket wrenches, not these tools) label. There are a couple others on the thread in the same box. You didn't show the sockets, but I would expect the walls to have the Indianhead logo. Very cool that the distributor's logo is a metallic tag rather than a sticker. I have three or four wood box 1920's sets from various mfgrs originally purchased through distributors, but they are all paper/water-transfer.

Which Walden patent are you referring to? And where is the date on the box you're talking about? Please post a photo.

As for the suit, my understanding is that it never affected production. It was filed in 1921, the only part that Walden won was the trademark (similarity of Blackhawk to Tomahawk), and even that was eventually overturned.

 

[Steven 33]

I don't want to lose the post looking for the picture of the sliding T showing how it's different but ill go look after. This is the patent i was referring to and the reference to the theory that they did makes sets.
My theory was that if they did do what the reference states. That Walden sued them just to buy some time because it was certainly a weak case that they made.
Also the on the drive tools are slightly different and the box appears slightly smaller than the no. 6 sets ive seen. But im basing off pictures and trying to gauge as best i can. Im not really into Blackhawk so trying to decide if its worth grabbing

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ I'm not sure I am following you above.

Put plainly, Walden was pissed off that their midwest reps, the Jonas Brothers (snerk), had stolen their ideas for cold-broached sockets and passed them to American Grinder. They sued, and basically lost.

I don't see how you're tying any of that to this early Blackhawk No. 6 set. How early is uncertain without seeing the sockets. But there is nothing unusual about any of the tools as far as I can tell. The early extension was made of square steel stock, not round. The early sliding tee had a hexagonal head with pinched stops.

If you are trying to imply that the wooden box itself is actually a Walden product, and the Jonas Bros were playing so fast-and-loose with their client/former client, that they were putting American Grinder "Blackhawk" tools inside Walden boxes without Walden knowing it - that would be a dastardly trick and a pretty cool find, but...

The marking on what I am assuming is the clasp on the box reads "PAT. APR 23 1918". The Barnes patent you attached (1,381,900), for a "Swivel Handle", an accessory of sort for extensions and ratchets, assigned to Walden, and actually showing Frederick Walden's well-known early loop handled ratchet (928,719 / 1909) in the patent diagram, was granted on June 21, 1921. I see that it was filed on April 23, 1918, the same date on that clasp, but I think that may be just a very weird coincidence.

It wasn't standard procedure to mark the application filing date of any patent on anything, first of all. Hypothetically, even if it was the date the patent was awarded, not the date they applied, putting the date of a patent for a "Swivel Handle" on a set box clasp is more than a little odd.

 

[RTM]

April 23, 1918, the same date on that clasp, but I think that may be just a very weird coincidence.

May I suggest this patent for the clasp?

US1759401A - Lock - Google Patents

The above is the lane patent mentioned below

Edited, LUgz caught a copy and paste error

US1263358A - Lock. - Google Patents

On the phone, so I can't read the patent. This one was cited on a Lane Chest latch.

 

[Steven 33]

^ I'm not sure I am following you above.

Put plainly, Walden was pissed off that their midwest reps, the Jonas Brothers (snerk), had stolen their ideas for cold-broached sockets and passed them to American Grinder. They sued, and basically lost.

I don't see how you're tying any of that to this early Blackhawk No. 6 set. How early is uncertain without seeing the sockets. But there is nothing unusual about any of the tools as far as I can tell. The early extension was made of square steel stock, not round. The early sliding tee had a hexagonal head with pinched stops.

If you are trying to imply that the wooden box itself is actually a Walden product, and the Jonas Bros were playing so fast-and-loose with their client/former client, that they were putting American Grinder "Blackhawk" tools inside Walden boxes without Walden knowing it - that would be a dastardly trick and a pretty cool find, but...

The marking on what I am assuming is the clasp on the box reads "PAT. APR 23 1918". The Barnes patent you attached (1,381,900), for a "Swivel Handle", an accessory of sort for extensions and ratchets, assigned to Walden, and actually showing Frederick Walden's well-known early loop handled ratchet (928,719 / 1909) in the patent diagram, but it was granted on June 21, 1921. I see that it was filed on April 23, 1918, the same date on that clasp, but I think that may be just a very weird coincidence.

It wasn't standard procedure to mark the application filing date of any patent on anything, first of all. Hypothetically, even if it was the date the patent was awarded, not the date they applied, putting the date of a patent for a "Swivel Handle" on a set box clasp is more than a little odd.

Its going to take me too long to trace my steps on that rabbit hole and i can't find all the pictures i saved, but I reluctantly give up on the cooler sounding story based on the fact that your obviously more Knowledgeable than me ha. The point i was making though is that if Blackhawk did make sets with stolen info and did it before Walden. Then the smart thing for Walden to do would be to do anything to halt production by Blackhawk before they ran off with their methods and a good way to do that would be to tie them up in litigation for a few months. It was a dog eat dog world back then. also my basis for speculation is not as unfounded as im making it appear, and there are a few oddities that took some serious time and energy zooming in to see but could be just insignificant manufacturing variations. Anyways i appreciate the insights.
And who knows maybe there will be a smoking gun for that dastardly trick that they mentioned on AA.
There is a mention of a halt of production if i remember correctly but it doesn't matter really.
Still a cool set though but you likely saved me money

 

[Private Lugnutz]

May I suggest this patent for the clasp?

I don't think you're following the situation, Kirk.

The clasp or latch is marked "PAT. APR 23 1918." @Steven 33 was apparently trying to connect Walden to the box that the Blackhawk No. 6 set is inside by pointing to that date as the date that Walden applied for a patent for a "Swivel Handle."

Why are you citing a patent for a latch/clasp granted on May 20, 1930?

It's highly likely that "PAT. APR 23 1918" marking refers to a patent for a latch or clasp granted on April 23, 1918. I have no plans to look for it.

I reluctantly give up on the cooler sounding story based on the fact that your obviously more Knowledgeable than me ha.

It has nothing to with knowledge.

You said, "...the box has the same date as the walden patent." When I asked you to clarify what Walden patent you were talking about and to post a photo of the date on the box, you posted a photo of the clasp on the box marked "PAT. APR 23 1918" and a Walden patent granted June 21, 1921 - that was applied for on April 23, 1918.

I'm just pointing out what anyone would point out - that it's highly unlikely that marking on a clasp is referring to a Walden patent for a Swivel Handle applied for on that date.

my basis for speculation is not as unfounded as im making it appear, and there are a few oddities that took some serious time and energy zooming in to see but could be just insignificant manufacturing variations.

I think what you're noticing and calling "manufacturing variations" are the differences between early and later (but pre-Q.D.) Blackhawk tools. That extension, knuckle joint, sliding tee, and 911 ratchet are early.

 

[RTM]

I don't think you're following the situation, Kirk.

The clasp or latch is marked "PAT. APR 23 1918." @Steven 33 was apparently trying to connect Walden to the box that the Blackhawk No. 6 set is inside by pointing to that date as the date that Walden applied for a patent for a "Swivel Handle."

Why are you citing a patent for a latch/clasp granted on May 20, 1930?

Argh, wrong link. That is the Lane filed patent I referenced. This should be the correct one. Will fix link above too.

US1263358A - Lock. - Google Patents

Still might not be correct, now that I can read it.

How about this one, the shape looks similar

US1263812A - Latch for double doors. - Google Patents

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ Aha! A good possibility!

 

[thehorse13]

I know this tool set. It's currently for sale for 200 bucks in PA. If it was priced right, it would already be in the horse stable.

 

[Blackhawkfan]

I know this tool set. It's currently for sale for 200 bucks in PA. If it was priced right, it would already be in the horse stable.

Me too. But I already have one like this. They seem to come to the light more often now.
There is currently a similar but jounger set on ebay - priced even more:

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

[Blackhawkfan]

And for the nugget fans: a 7/16 drive thin wall deep spark plug socket

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

[Steven 33]

I know this tool set. It's currently for sale for 200 bucks in PA. If it was priced right, it would already be in the horse stable.

For 200 i would have probably just grabbed it, but after convincing him to consider shipping i decided i needed to get a better idea of the value ect before I started the financial incentive stage of the process.
It's pretty easy to rationalize yourself into purchases after a little time collecting. Hell I've spent 350 on 3 basically regular sockets so by that logic id be getting a great deal ha.

 

[930dreamer]

I'll have to wait and see it with my peepers. The hinge looks like it's had some repair, but that's ok. Socket tray is an add on.

J.C. Mansfield, is the name on the toolbox top. Not sure if this is the same person?

 

[thehorse13]

For 200 i would have probably just grabbed it, but after convincing him to consider shipping i decided i needed to get a better idea of the value ect before I started the financial incentive stage of the process.
It's pretty easy to rationalize yourself into purchases after a little time collecting. Hell I've spent 350 on 3 basically regular sockets so by that logic id be getting a great deal ha.

I see that the seller has taken down his ad for this set. Did you end up plucking this one?

 

[thehorse13]

Does anyone here know the specifics of the mid 1920s QD Blackhawk #414 "Special Alemite Socket" pictured below? I've come across one but had no idea that it exists or why.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Does anyone here know the specifics of the mid 1920s QD Blackhawk #414 "Special Alemite Socket" pictured below? I've come across one but had no idea that it exists or why.

They were for installing and removing Alemite grease port fittings before Zerk type fittings became standard. Having a socket in a large master type socket drive set was not unique to Blackhawk. Here is a link to one of my early Bethlehem Spark Plug Company socket sets with an Alemite socket. Scroll down for close-up. And I am attaching an Indestro cat cut below.

 

[thehorse13]

They were for installing and removing Alemite grease port fittings before Zerk type fittings became standard. Having a socket in a large master type socket drive set was not unique to Blackhawk. Here is a link to one of my early Bethlehem Spark Plug Company socket sets with an Alemite socket. Scroll down for close-up. And I am attaching an Indestro cat cut below.

Well that's a much nicer explanation in the Indestro catalog. lol.

I appreciate the info. I will have to look at my early QD sets to see which one, if any, need this socket that I just found.

 

[930dreamer]

Blackhawk transmission jack for $100 near me, missing the handle.

 

[Steven 33]

Flat end but no Indian head. Weird

 

[freudianfloyd]

I just posted this in a thread I started for my random projects, but after a few years of dragging my feet, I finally finished the restoration of my Nugget Toolbox. You can see more details here.