I was going to post the same thing! Degrease everything with brakeclean and let alum do it's thing!Don't stress, everything will be just fineDo you want to try some science? AvE had a great video on this, but it's gone for some reason. You can silicone one of those little paper cups over the broken stud/extractor mess, and let it dry. Cut a hole in the cup (maybe first?) and fill with your alum and water mixture. Use a low powered incandescent bulb for heat, and let it do it's thing overnight. I guess if you wanted it to go faster, you could make a metal cup and then really put the BTU's to it.
Tried getting stuck manifold bolt out... Welded extractor inside
- Thread starter jzx100
- Start date
chris142
Well-known member
Turn the power up on the welder.
This sounds interesting, so the idea is to use a cup, to keep the liquid on it, and heat it with a lamp?
Check out the video Omnirod posted. Whatever works to keep the a puddle of alum in the hole. Read up on the process, it takes a specific type of alum.
Did some reading, I could cut an aluminum cup in half and have it held up onto the bolt, while heating it up pretty good with a lamp or something
RPH
Well-known member
If it’s rare and valuable part then EDM is the answer. The more you keep playing with at home. The more likely hood you will be replacing it or make a larger expense in the end.
nadogail
Well-known member
IMHO, there is no Cheap and Easy way out of your situation; maybe if you take a box of Doughnuts with you when you go see the EDM shop, they may be sympathetic and cut you a break.
Or at least maybe they will not make fun of you, to your face, broken taps and extractors are what keep EDM shops in business.
Or at least maybe they will not make fun of you, to your face, broken taps and extractors are what keep EDM shops in business.
I'd hope they wouldn't make fun of you. Anyone who has been at it long enough has broken a tap. Some of us a few times.
Honestly the people that make the screw/bolt extractors should be forced to put this on the box:
"If you just napped the head off your fastener and hope this kit will get the rest of your fastener out, you are in for a lot of pain"
Yeah, now I know. If it broke off a head, then ain't no way an extractor would even touch that stud.
There are a few universal drilling guides out there that might work for that purpose. I bought the OTC one 5 years ago after dealing with a nightmare bolt (eventually got it out with a nut welded on). Since getting that I haven't needed to use it, I've probably just been avoiding exhaust manifold bolts.
Universal Drill Guide System - Beydler's Manibolt Driller
Universal Drill Guide includes: - Four, Eight and Twelve inch mounting Rails. - Guide pin, for broken fasteners under flush resulting in faster mounting. - Two sets of mounting inserts, supports Flathead fasteners from M6X1.0 to M10X1.5 / 1/4-20 to 3/8-16. - Drills (Qty 1 ea.) 3/16, 1/4, 5/16...
maniboltdriller.com
Jswain
Well-known member
Another thing to try is before you weld the washer on, heat the **** outta the stud with a torch, even if you only have a propane torch. Have your welder all lined up ready to go and heat the stud for 10 mins with a propane torch then quickly weld the washer/nut on
Ray-CA
Well-known member
Just passed the 4 day mark for me....
I was worried about heating the stud too much to bubble the alu, but I only have a mapp gas torch. Also my welds just doink right off after the slightest amount of force with a breaker bar, so maybe this would help penetrate it more?
Jswain
Well-known member
Yes it would, especially after freshly drilling like you have now(nice clean metal). I doubt you can heat up a cylinder head hot enough with mapp gas to hurt it, but obviously pay attention
After I weld the washer to the stud, then the inside of the nut to the washer, I've also found it helps a lot on the hard ones to weld the outside perimeter of the nut to the washer. This soaks everything with heat way more. Obviously you need a decently thick washer with a large enough OD. You will probably have to use vice grips on the nut afterwards but that's no big deal
Drill it out and run a tap through. Sometimes have to use a strong pick to pull the last bit of the bolt out if it wasn't drilled perfect or kept it a size or two small.
But now, dunno.
danielbuck
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2014
- Messages
- 919
if it's too hard to drill, I would use a small die grinder (or even a pencil grinder?) and grind out the extractor. it will take a while, but you can do it. then once it's out, drill and tap to a larger size, or try a threaded insert if you want to retain the same size. I've had to do this on exhaust studs a few times, fortunately I was able to simply tap the next size up and things have always been ok.
Old Man Roger
Well-known member
That things pretty cool. Would work great with left handed drill bits, I start small and work my way up to bigger bits till the bolt threads out.There are a few universal drilling guides out there that might work for that purpose. I bought the OTC one 5 years ago after dealing with a nightmare bolt (eventually got it out with a nut welded on). Since getting that I haven't needed to use it, I've probably just been avoiding exhaust manifold bolts.
Universal Drill Guide System - Beydler's Manibolt Driller
Universal Drill Guide includes: - Four, Eight and Twelve inch mounting Rails. - Guide pin, for broken fasteners under flush resulting in faster mounting. - Two sets of mounting inserts, supports Flathead fasteners from M6X1.0 to M10X1.5 / 1/4-20 to 3/8-16. - Drills (Qty 1 ea.) 3/16, 1/4, 5/16...
I think the video was sped up while he was drilling though. I always like to drill slow with a good amount of pressure and cutting/cooling oil. Stopping often to cool the bit if needed. HEAT DULLS BITS AND CAN WORK HARDEN WHAT YOU'RE DRILLING.
JZX100, could you get away with sacrificing the first couple threads? I ask because you have hardened the top. If you could use a stone to slowly grind away the hardened part at the top, you would also remove the tightest part of the extractor. The extractor is tapered, so the fattest part will be the tightest part.
Slowly, so you don’t work harden it more, grind a nice conical hole, almost like a counter sink/centering hole, then I think you would be able to use a nice NEW, HARDENED, SHARP, left handed bit set. Push hard, go super slow, and keep the bits cool, worth repeating, heat dulls bits. Start with a small bit, and move up till the threads are almost showing, the left handed bit will usually thread the thin bolt out while you’re drilling.
That jig kit would definitely help to keep you drilling straight.
Old Man Roger
Well-known member
I know you mentioned you didn’t think an extractor would get the bolt out, so you’re probably doubting a left handed drill bit would remove it, but as the bolt is drilled out more and more, it loosens up in the hole.
You’d be amazed how little force it takes to get it out once it’s drilled enough.
You’d be amazed how little force it takes to get it out once it’s drilled enough.
The AvE video that isn't on YouTube anymore, he just stuck a small paper dixie cup to the aluminum with silicone. It had the top cut off so he could fill it up. My display is going to use a brass 90 degree fitting.
stockerwithalocker
Well-known member
With the head being aluminum and the stud steel, use the cte mismatch to your advantage. When you find your desired removal method, heat the head locally near the stud, the aluminum will expand more, and should make it easier to free the stuck stud.
Cobalt bits are just any mystery metal bits including HSS grade surface treated in cobalt. Bring it to a machinist or get a proper bit from a machine shop supply place.
Old Man Roger
Well-known member
Did I mention heat dulls bits? Speed makes heat, drill slow, push hard. And make sure you get a bit that’s hard enough to drill the extractor.
yeah, i have a feeling that metal amalgamation in there is all hardened up now, so no matter what bit i use it's just not drilling. i ordered some solid carbide bits, apparently i can't use that with a hand drill... i also hear a carbide burr could skim that top hardened layer off and i can keep trying to drill after that.
jsaw
Well-known member
Google rescue bits. I do not have any personal experience, but have heard them mentioned.
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rescuebit.com
RESCUE BIT LLC
OUR UNIQUE DESIGN ALLOWS THE RESCUE BIT TO CUT, DRILL, AND REAM ALL IN ONE MOTION!
rescuebit.com
helterskelter
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2010
- Messages
- 296
If the broken extractor is HSS you will not be able to drill it with a regular drill bit (even cobalt). A carbide drill bit will not tolerate being used in a hand drill.
Welding on HSS is going to be difficult due to the carbon content.
Your best bet is a carbide ball burr and a die grinder spinning as fast as possible (~15k+ RPM).
I personally would pull the head and put it on a machine.
Welding on HSS is going to be difficult due to the carbon content.
Your best bet is a carbide ball burr and a die grinder spinning as fast as possible (~15k+ RPM).
I personally would pull the head and put it on a machine.
I had a similar situation occur this last summer when I bought an aluminum winch with a 1/2" steel bolt broken off in a mounting hole. It looked like some galvanic oxidation (I think that's the term) had occured.
For the cheap price of the alum from Wal-Mart (~$4), I gave the chemical process a try. It seemed like lots of people talk about it but few had actually done it with success. I used a spray paint can lid sealed with silicone and a standard heat lamp.
I used as much alum as would dissolve in the water and had to swap the solution out maybe 3 or 4 times with a syringe. After two solid days and some head scratching you can see what was left. It was hard to tell what was going on because the alum would come out of the solution (precipitate?) as the water evaporated. So there was a mass of gunk in the bottom of the hole and I couldn't tell if it was the bolt or alum crystals.
After two days I cleaned everything out with fresh water and the pice shown is the only chunk that was left out of a 1/2" x 3/4" deep bolt.
The threads were not perfect, I think from the galvanic corrosion, but certainly good enough to use.
So I can personally
say the method is valid, and if I have the time I will 100% use it in a similar situation.
For the cheap price of the alum from Wal-Mart (~$4), I gave the chemical process a try. It seemed like lots of people talk about it but few had actually done it with success. I used a spray paint can lid sealed with silicone and a standard heat lamp.
I used as much alum as would dissolve in the water and had to swap the solution out maybe 3 or 4 times with a syringe. After two solid days and some head scratching you can see what was left. It was hard to tell what was going on because the alum would come out of the solution (precipitate?) as the water evaporated. So there was a mass of gunk in the bottom of the hole and I couldn't tell if it was the bolt or alum crystals.
After two days I cleaned everything out with fresh water and the pice shown is the only chunk that was left out of a 1/2" x 3/4" deep bolt.
The threads were not perfect, I think from the galvanic corrosion, but certainly good enough to use.
So I can personally
say the method is valid, and if I have the time I will 100% use it in a similar situation.Monza Harry
Well-known member
If you can set it up on a machine use a "hi-roc" drill. These will drill up into the upper 50's (Rc) maybe 60(?) [that is really hard]. Harry
https://www.maford.com/product-details/20009370 this isn't likely the right size but this gets you the idea
https://www.maford.com/product-details/20009370 this isn't likely the right size but this gets you the idea
slodat
ALLIANCE MEMBER
This is a few minutes on a milling machine after it’s dialed in.
Oldsnapper
Well-known member
As has been previously mentioned by others, been there done that.
Last summer, my wife's sister-in-law's 2006 Pontiac Vibe had the charging system light come on. Belt was flopping around with edges failing. Get a new belt to put on. Belt tensioner is flopping around. Broken main mounting bolt. had to remove passenger side motor mount, jack the engine up 3 inches and use a 90* angle air drill with 1/4 inch bit shortened to 1 1/2 inches long as bolt was broken off just below flush. Could only see in using a mirror. Had to drill blind using drill guide from extractor set to keep bit centered.
Last summer, my wife's sister-in-law's 2006 Pontiac Vibe had the charging system light come on. Belt was flopping around with edges failing. Get a new belt to put on. Belt tensioner is flopping around. Broken main mounting bolt. had to remove passenger side motor mount, jack the engine up 3 inches and use a 90* angle air drill with 1/4 inch bit shortened to 1 1/2 inches long as bolt was broken off just below flush. Could only see in using a mirror. Had to drill blind using drill guide from extractor set to keep bit centered.
csp
Well-known member
I mentioned diamond bits/burrs already.
Here's a video of a Milwaukee diamond small hole saw in use on a hardened steel.
Here's a video of a Milwaukee diamond small hole saw in use on a hardened steel.
Old Man Roger
Well-known member
Was anyone else triggered by that guy?
Holy mess! And why work on the edge of the safe like that? I mean he was using a drill bit to level the work.
He could have easily moved the mag drill over a few inches and been on a level surface.
I mean if you’re going through the trouble of making a video, why not just use a regular drill press and secure your work? Uuugggg
Disclaimer-woke up with a head ache and feeling grumpy..lol
is that an exhaust stud? what if you fabbed up a support plate to get some pressure onto that area from another fastener location and just left it alone? like this that I see for LS engines all over https://www.amazon.com/Exhaust-Mani...1999-2021/dp/B0B49N4LFG/?tag=atomicindus08-20
not ideal but maybe it'll work.
alternate out of the box idea that's likely dumb. Weld an aluminum bolt to the head to make a "new" stud. chamfer the manifold slightly to sit over the weld.
not ideal but maybe it'll work.
alternate out of the box idea that's likely dumb. Weld an aluminum bolt to the head to make a "new" stud. chamfer the manifold slightly to sit over the weld.
SlappyWhite
Well-known member
Can you build up the broken stud with weld before welding the nut? I am thinking copper washer and weld the **** out of the broken stud in the middle, then remove the washer. Then weld the steel nut without the steel washer. Of course make sure the stud, nut, etc. is very clean before welding. I wonder if you are just not getting a solid enough weld?
Like others noted, a torch (even propane) to get things good and hot before trying removal. Maybe a few cycles as aluminum and steel expand at different rates.
Like others noted, a torch (even propane) to get things good and hot before trying removal. Maybe a few cycles as aluminum and steel expand at different rates.
david3921
Well-known member
Don't use a breaker bar to remove the bolt after welding. I use a small, adjustable wrench for removal. You want to use a back and forth, and an in and out motion to get it out.
Monza Harry
Well-known member
YES! I would and frequently do add some lube to the equation. Choice is based on my best guess as to victory. Low chance of victory I use kerosene (easy to wash out for round 2) 50/50 some air tool oil (better lube and not so bad to wash out). If I feel victory is imminent I'll go all in with tapping fluid, if you break it off with that stuff in the hole expect to wash this out 3-5 times for any chance of a clean re-weld. Now this is based on my experience which is 99 broken taps to 1 broken/seized bolt ratio! Harry P.S. I have and do mix lubes based on my hubris.
So I'm trying the alum trick, and I don't see jack. No bubbles, no black thingies, nothing. It's a very saturated solution of water and alum. I'm keeping an eye on it, and alum accumulates to the surface of the bolt and I just knock it off.
What's going on? Is my mixture not pure enough? Maybe it got contaminated with some oil or something? Iunno.
If this doesn't work I'll prolly just run it without the bolt and a **** ton of RTV, then if it has an exhaust leak I'll throw in the towel and take it to a machine shop.
What's going on? Is my mixture not pure enough? Maybe it got contaminated with some oil or something? Iunno.
If this doesn't work I'll prolly just run it without the bolt and a **** ton of RTV, then if it has an exhaust leak I'll throw in the towel and take it to a machine shop.
rust in the eye
Well-known member
"contaminated with some oil "
that's my guess
Depending on the stiffness of the manifold you might get away with it. I knew a guy that worked in an exhaust shop and his use of the red high heat silicone is legendary.
I'd suggest that after slathering it on that the bolts be just past finger tight, allow the goop to set up a while then run down the bolts. Crude but effective.
that's my guess
Depending on the stiffness of the manifold you might get away with it. I knew a guy that worked in an exhaust shop and his use of the red high heat silicone is legendary.
I'd suggest that after slathering it on that the bolts be just past finger tight, allow the goop to set up a while then run down the bolts. Crude but effective.
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How warm is it? Apparently heat is the key to making it work faster.So I'm trying the alum trick, and I don't see jack. No bubbles, no black thingies, nothing. It's a very saturated solution of water and alum. I'm keeping an eye on it, and alum accumulates to the surface of the bolt and I just knock it off.
What's going on? Is my mixture not pure enough? Maybe it got contaminated with some oil or something? Iunno.
If this doesn't work I'll prolly just run it without the bolt and a **** ton of RTV, then if it has an exhaust leak I'll throw in the towel and take it to a machine shop.