upgrade to 200amp?

[sluginxlt]

i just finished building my new 24x30 garage so its time to start thinking about electrical. i have a small 890sq ft house with 100 amp service. in my old garage that im tearing down i had a 15amp breaker for the lights and outlets and then a 30 amp breaker for my 220 outlet that i use for my mig welder and air compressor. ive never had any problems tripping breakers with my current setup but i really dont like unplugging the welder and compressor back and fourh so i was thinking of putting a sub panel in the new garage but i may need to get 200 amps to the house first. i am also on a budget so i dont want to uprade house unless i have to. any body have ideas or oppinions of what i should consider? in the future i would like to also get a tig welder and a plasma cutter but it will always just be a one man oppereation so they should all use about the same power im guessing.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Is the garage attached or detached from the house ?

You could consider putting a new 200 amp service in the garage then feed to the house. A friend put in a meter base/ disconnect box like this. He has a 100 service in the house and has an outbuilding that he wants to run power to in the future. This will allow him to do that and move the breaker to AC unit to this also freeing up space inside the house box.

 

[sluginxlt]

it is a detached garage. my brother keeps mentioning getting another 100amp service and meter straight to the garage if electric company will allow it. but he says i would probably have to pay a monthly meter charge

 

[bczygan]

Do a load calc, That's the short answer.

Not cheap to upgrade a main service, but it gives you lots of options.

How old is the installation.

Does anything in the house need upgrading?

Do a master plan with an eye toward the future.

Our house is 1,250SF with a 60A fused panel. Going to upgrade to 200A QO panel for main and also for sub.

Bill

 

[NUTTSGT]

it is a detached garage. my brother keeps mentioning getting another 100amp service and meter straight to the garage if electric company will allow it. but he says i would probably have to pay a monthly meter charge

I have separate services for my house and garage. The garage is considered a "small general service" by AEP. It costs me about $45/mo for that bill for usage and everything.

 

[sluginxlt]

My box now doesnt seem too old. I mean it uses current breaker.

 

[sluginxlt]

I have separate services for my house and garage. The garage is considered a "small general service" by AEP. It costs me about $45/mo for that bill for usage and everything.

Do you know if it can be done for home use or does it have to be a "business "?

 

[tfi racing]

Location?You will only get wild guesses as every country,state and town has different ways of doing things...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Whats the wire distance between the house and garage?

If your old garage was/is detached then having separate circuits like that is a big NO NO!

 

[checkthisout]

i just finished building my new 24x30 garage so its time to start thinking about electrical. i have a small 890sq ft house with 100 amp service. in my old garage that im tearing down i had a 15amp breaker for the lights and outlets and then a 30 amp breaker for my 220 outlet that i use for my mig welder and air compressor. ive never had any problems tripping breakers with my current setup but i really dont like unplugging the welder and compressor back and fourh so i was thinking of putting a sub panel in the new garage but i may need to get 200 amps to the house first. i am also on a budget so i dont want to uprade house unless i have to. any body have ideas or oppinions of what i should consider? in the future i would like to also get a tig welder and a plasma cutter but it will always just be a one man oppereation so they should all use about the same power im guessing.

Offhand, get the new 200 amp +service brought to garage. Put meter at garage and 100 amp panel and then run 100 amp service to house. Remove house meter.

?

 

[bczygan]

Whether you have to upgrade the house first, or may put the big panel in the garage and feed the house as a sub, depends on the house's present and future needs.

If the house will ever need upgrading, then now is the time to do it.

Bill

 

[DonPowers]

My new garage / shop is across the road from the house so I put in its own 200 amp service. Like your's, my house has a 100 amp service. The service size with regard to power isn't a problem , however the number of circuits you can connect is. There are only 16 spaces in my 100 amp service, with most of them filled with minis. The garage with 40 circuits has plenty to go around.

Now the cost. With two services, I get two bills with the garage having a higher rate than the house.

If the distance isn't to far, Nut's idea of feeding the house from the garage is a pretty good one.

 

[2Big2Ride]

Do you know if it can be done for home use or does it have to be a "business "?

You have to check with the power company - varies by location. We have a separate meter and 200A service for the shop, and dispite Texas* urban legend, pay residential rates for both the house and the shop. Our shop meter and associated base fees are about $10 a month. In our case, it was a couple thousand less to install the separate service to the shop than a subpanel run from the house.

* edit, should have stated Texas urban legend.

 

[DonPowers]

You have to check with the power company - varies by location. We have a separate meter and 200A service for the shop, and dispite urban legend, pay residential rates for both the house and the shop. Our shop meter and associated base fees are about $10 a month. In our case, it was a couple thousand less to install the separate service to the shop than a subpanel run from the house.

You are lucky that your utility allows your shop to be billed as a residence. Not the case where I live, the utility periodically sends people around to survey their installations. Happened to be home when one came by and I asked what he was doing. It was a survey to make this determination. They want to squeeze every dollar they can from you.

 

[sberry]

Stop,,,,,, 1st, you don't want or need a separate meter. Unless you have an all electric house with hot tub you don't need an upgrade. A hobby garage adds very little load to a service, most very intermittent. There is no reason to upgrade on the speculation you may get a 300 amp tig, cross that if it happens. For now get a new panel in the garage and get it working, use number 2 alum.

 

[bczygan]

Stop,,,,,, 1st, you don't want or need a separate meter. Unless you have an all electric house with hot tub you don't need an upgrade. A hobby garage adds very little load to a service, most very intermittent. There is no reason to upgrade on the speculation you may get a 300 amp tig, cross that if it happens. For now get a new panel in the garage and get it working, use number 2 alum.

This may very well be true.

OP, You really need to analyze the house panel carefully, and look at the loads that will be used at the same time as the shop.

If the house panel is adequate for these combined loads, and you can free up 2 spaces, then do as sberry suggests and run a number 2 aluminum feed to a new garage sub panel. The number 2 will allow up to a 90A breaker, but you probably only need a 60A in the house panel, to feed the garage. Put a 100A main breaker sub panel in the garage.

Bill

 

[saabman]

I have a detached shop with a 200 amp metered service. The house had a 100 amp panel which I had upgraded to 200 amps. And it is separately metered. Each feed has its own transformer too.


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[sluginxlt]

Originally i planned on running a 100amp subpanel in garage off of a 50amp breaker in house panel with the underground wire being #2 copper to be able to upgrade the house panel to 200amp later if needed but plan was shut down when someone told me the #2 wire will never fit into a 50amp breaker

 

[sluginxlt]

With my current garage as stated above ive never had any problems i just really wanted more than one 220 outlet so my welder and compressor dont have to share. Also it wouldnt be very often that i would actually be welding while commpressor was filling up.

 

[sberry]

It will but use a 60, use a 90. We,,, I,,,, normally use 2 aluminum and a 60. The price goes up a few dollars after 60 but one of the main benefits,,,, since I have never went back to upgrade a breaker in about a couple dozen garages is that the larger wire gives some headroom for V drop on longer circuits.
2 copper would be even better would give solid 60A service at 200 + ft

 

[sberry]

Is the garage attached or detached from the house ?

You could consider putting a new 200 amp service in the garage then feed to the house. A friend put in a meter base/ disconnect box like this. He has a 100 service in the house and has an outbuilding that he wants to run power to in the future. This will allow him to do that and move the breaker to AC unit to this also freeing up space inside the house box.

This panel has 200A main lug feed thru.
Its a thing of beauty ti simplify additional out buildings, well etc. I have one similar and use the feed thru to a 100A disconnect for my tig.

 

[Pwrgeek]

If it were me I'd get a 200A 40 space panel for the garage. Will not cost you much more than anything smaller and can be had for under $150 easily. Feed it with #2 Al from a 60A breaker in the existing panel in the house. Hook it up and see how it goes. If you are constantly tripping the breaker feeding the garage (spoiler alert you won't) you can up it to a 90. If you start tripping the main in the house panel (which is probably more likely but still not very probable) then what you would do is have the Power company put in a new 200A service to the garage and turn the #2 you already have in around and feed it from a 100A breaker in the garage to the house. Leave yourself some slack on each end so you can move things around and this way you can progress nicely from least cost to higher cost options until you hit the sweet spot of what works for you.


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[sluginxlt]

If it were me I'd get a 200A 40 space panel for the garage. Will not cost you much more than anything smaller and can be had for under $150 easily. Feed it with #2 Al from a 60A breaker in the existing panel in the house. Hook it up and see how it goes. If you are constantly tripping the breaker feeding the garage (spoiler alert you won't) you can up it to a 90. If you start tripping the main in the house panel (which is probably more likely but still not very probable) then what you would do is have the Power company put in a new 200A service to the garage and turn the #2 you already have in around and feed it from a 100A breaker in the garage to the house. Leave yourself some slack on each end so you can move things around and this way you can progress nicely from least cost to higher cost options until you hit the sweet spot of what works for you.


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So what i heard about #2 wire not fitting in 60amp breaker was wrong?

 

[sluginxlt]

Location?You will only get wild guesses as every country,state and town has different ways of doing things...

Westland michigan United States

 

[sberry]

I believe 2 is max in a 60, its listed on a sticker on them.

 

[sluginxlt]

Whats the wire distance between the house and garage?

If your old garage was/is detached then having separate circuits like that is a big NO NO!

New garage is about 50 feet from back of addition and measured 90 feet if running wire from house panel to garage. Old garage is only about 10 feet away but im geussing about 40 feet of wire from house panel to entering garage

 

[sluginxlt]

figured i should show some pictures of what im working with.

 

[sberry]

Number 3 wouldn't be quite so stiff, this is close enough v drop wont be an issue, 3 number 3 and a number 8 ground.

 

[sluginxlt]

So the Siemens 60amp says max #4 wire. So im thinking of running 60amp breaker on house with #4 copper running to garage to a 100 amp subpanel. Sound about right? Should my sub panel be a main breaker or main lug box?

 

[sluginxlt]

Would a 100 or 125 amp sub panel being ran off a smaller 60amp breaker be ok even for an inspection? I realize different citys vary but does that sound normally acceptable?

 

[sberry]

Yes, as was said a guy can run a 200 if the wire is protected ahead of it.

 

[Elginz]

Put a 200 amp panel in the garage. Feed it with what ever you can from the house. The breaker at the house has to fit the wire. The 200 amp panel will give you room to grow with very little added cost at this time. Several others have said this in different ways. It seems you will have enough amperage as is. Just when you do something, do it once so upgrades are easier and less expensive if planed for now. 200 amp panel in the garage and wire to feed the house when needed.

 

[sberry]

Cost was mentioned up front. Is it likely that the house will need an upgrade,, ? The object isn't to see how much lower one can use but to have what you need. It's an endless game to play what if at every turn and 99 percent of it never comes,, if it happens cope at a time it may be more affordable.
A guy needs a pickup to go to the dump or get a plywood, doesn't need a 70k F350 dually diesel in case he hits the lucky lotto so he can pull a 5th wheel.

 

[sluginxlt]

Like i said if it will do what i need now its doubtful ill ever need an upgrade because even if i get more machines i will only ever run one at a time with the exception that the compressor may kick on while im running something else. But i also dont mind leaving room to upgrade in the wire so it wouldnt have to be dug up if ever an upgrade. But #4 is the biggest wire to fit the 60amp breaker. Would that be sufficient if i ever did upgrade garage to 200 and run house 100 as a subpanel. #4copper that is

 

[sberry]

What brand is this breaker? Not sure about Homeline but QO takes 2. You need number 3 cu to support 100. I just looked for giggles, Hom lists 2 on a 50,,, Is someone telling you they wont fit or have you looked at as breaker? I don't have a Seimens handy.

 

[sluginxlt]

I looked it up on google. Said Siemens specs was max #4

 

[sluginxlt]

I dont know why i thought my panel was siemens. Just looked at it says sylvania but most breakers but most breakers say GE one westinghouse and one Siemens. I thought boxes were brand specific for breakers

 

[Pwrgeek]

I dont know why i thought my panel was siemens. Just looked at it says sylvania but most breakers but most breakers say GE one westinghouse and one Siemens. I thought boxes were brand specific for breakers

They are supposed to be, but there are several brands that are close enough that they will fit. It's not a legal installation but it works in a pinch.

Like i said if it will do what i need now its doubtful ill ever need an upgrade because even if i get more machines i will only ever run one at a time with the exception that the compressor may kick on while im running something else. But i also dont mind leaving room to upgrade in the wire so it wouldnt have to be dug up if ever an upgrade. But #4 is the biggest wire to fit the 60amp breaker. Would that be sufficient if i ever did upgrade garage to 200 and run house 100 as a subpanel. #4copper that is

If you run #4 Cu then that would be enough to support the house at 100A if you ever turn it around and feed it that way
(Code rule 310.15(B)7 helps get the extra capacity in the situation where the garage is feeding the house but does not work in the reverse case so if you're feeding the garage from the house it's limited to a 60A breaker)

 

[sluginxlt]

They are supposed to be, but there are several brands that are close enough that they will fit. It's not a legal installation but it works in a pinch.






If you run #4 Cu then that would be enough to support the house at 100A if you ever turn it around and feed it that way
(Code rule 310.15(B)7 helps get the extra capacity in the situation where the garage is feeding the house but does not work in the reverse case so if you're feeding the garage from the house it's limited to a 60A breaker)

Im a little confused by that, so #4 cu IS ok to run off of a 60amp in house to feed garage sub and will also be enough to run 100amp to house if i ever get 200amp service in garage?

 

[Pwrgeek]

Im a little confused by that, so #4 cu IS ok to run off of a 60amp in house to feed garage sub and will also be enough to run 100amp to house if i ever get 200amp service in garage?

Exactly. #4 Cu is good for 85A per the 75deg C column of 310.15(B)16. The garage is not a "dwelling unit" so you don't get to use the 83% factor from 310.15(B)7 when feeding in the garage direction. When you turn it around to feed the house which is a "dwelling unit" you do get to use that factor and so your 100A load becomes 83A for rating the wire and thus the #4 Cu still works.