Upgrading screw drivers

[measuredtwice]

Arrived today from Japan... WOW that was fast. DHL Special Delivery.

Can you post a real photo? I have other Vessel drivers but I haven't seen this one so I'd like a better look at the handle.

how's the shroud (or whatever it's called) on that screwdriver, pelican? i mean the thing between the handle and the blade.

does it seem sturdy?

ferrule

 

[PelicanPines]

Can you post a real photo? I have other Vessel drivwers but I haven't seen this one so I'd like a better look at the handle.



ferrule

1. This picture shows the other "nubby" handle that I have that does NOT feel well in my hand after a while. The other drivers are there for size comparison
2. Closeup of Vessel
3. Closeup of Vessel
4. Klein, Vessel and Wera... overall size comparison.

 

[measuredtwice]

Thank you for the photos. I have the Megadora 900/980 and ball grip handles and have seen real photos of a few others but I hadn't previously seen that one.

 

[Ton ton]

Pelican, which one has the hardest tips?

 

[PelicanPines]

Pelican, which one has the hardest tips?

I can only vouch for wera and klein...

Klein appear to be hardened but don't fit the screws as perfectly as the diamond tip wera. I have NEVER replaced a Klein from wear... I have replaced ONE wera due to wear. I can live with that because of how great they feel gripping the screws. Both are show in my pictures. The klein is omg... uhm... 20 years old maybe... the Wera is about 2 or 3 years old.

Vessel... this is my first one... I have no long term experience with them. I have not even made a comparison on how I like the "screw feel". I do LOVE the handle tho... the Vessel does not appear to have a "TIP COATING" that will wear out if that helps.

I'm gonna add this... the majority of the fasteners I deal with (screws)... are stainless.

 

[Ton ton]

Thanks, pelican.

 

[macgee]

As many others have posted that PB Swiss drivers are the ones to consider as the best.

Post's made here have mostly highly recommend below (not in any order):

Vessel, Felo, Wiha, PB Swiss, Williams/S-O, Hazet and to some degree Wera and soft cushioned SK (made by western forge).

My experience:

PB Swiss: Last night I bought a bunch of PB Swiss bits, hex and drivers as Tool Lady is having a 25% off sale right now but also have to say I had two (3.5 & 4mm) soft grip slotted blades bend (see pics below) and wear out on me way prematurely (bad batch?) and the soft grip is hard to clean even after aggressively trying. The grips are very good, can get good torque but found my Felo 550 more comfortable and the slotted tips are holding up much better.

My PB S. phillips heads (#0,1,2,3) don't even look worn after three years, very impressive and completely opposite to my slotted ones.
I just ordered a bunch of hex bits for my drivers to test out and I suspect they're better than anything else and prices are good for them.

Felo's: A couple of posts here were about some disaffection for their Felo drivers, I love my 550's and reach for them before I reach for my PB Swiss slotted but I have the high end 550 model much more expensive ones, not the wood ones. A couple of days ago I received the wood handle set for $19. I was needing a set for my to go kit but have to say the quality and finish is no where remotely as nice as my 550. The 550 are machined and milled finished, the wood ones are not. Having said that, for $20 I doubt anything can beat them, They would make for a great beater set that you don't have to worry about; designed to strike with a hammer, has a hex bolster and has a tough satin chrome finish. If you linseed oil them, they will be beautiful and timeless but please Dont don't compare them to a PB Swiss or better 550 Felo's. Wiha also makes a nice wood set.

Wera's: Recently I also pulled out a set of Wera's to revisit and compare. I agree the handle is very nice and I think the tip finish and fit sizing is the best out there but they do wear out rather quick and softer than the PB Swiss, Felo's, Wiha, Williams. I say they could be the best for lighter use and low torque shops and prices are lower than the ones mentioned above; the handles don't torque as well as Williams, PB Swiss or Felo's. I would say Wiha (germany) have stronger tips than Wera (czech). I love my small precision Wera's for feel and tip fit but find the shafts too long and twisty and are going away, prefer using my Felo's and Wiha's.

Williams: I bought a set after having issues with my PB Swiss drivers and since they were on deep discount I would feel better when trashing them. Have to say they're really nice, no real complaints other than the tips were slightly softer than my Felo's and PB's (PH heads). Other than that is ergonimics preference, the handle is hard but has the best torque but not the most comfortable. And there made in USA.

SK: The soft grips are made at Western Forge (USA), exact same set as Craftsman Pro. They're pretty expensive for what you get and have about the same or slightly less wear than the Williams. I use a 1/8th slotted everyday and love it but I do have to fix the tip edge on occasion.

I have a machine shop and restore old world vintage machinery full time and don't work on greasy cars. Again; Personal usage, costs, ergonomics, feel and specs can tip the difference to what you like better and mileage will vary but there does seems to be a overwhelming consensus of about four to eight manufacturers to safely consider. Go review other threads and sites and you'll see similar opinions. And of course they're other excellent ones out there but these seems to mentioned the most thumbs up.

Felo 550:

BELOW:
PS Swiss #1 (3.5mm) slotted barely used and soft, it was replaced but......

 

[noid]

As many others have posted that PB Swiss drivers are the ones to consider as the best.

Post's made here have mostly highly recommend below (not in any order):

Vessel, Felo, Wiha, PB Swiss, Williams/S-O, Hazet and to some degree Wera and soft cushioned SK (made by western forge).

My experience:

PB Swiss: Last night I bought a bunch of PB Swiss bits, hex and drivers as Tool Lady is having a 25% off sale right now but also have to say I had two (3.5 & 4mm) soft grip slotted blades bend (see pics below) and wear out on me way prematurely (bad batch?) and the soft grip is hard to clean even after aggressively trying. The grips are very good, can get good torque but found my Felo 550 more comfortable and the slotted tips are holding up much better.

My PB S. phillips heads (#0,1,2,3) don't even look worn after three years, very impressive and completely opposite to my slotted ones.
I just ordered a bunch of hex bits for my drivers to test out and I suspect they're better than anything else and prices are good for them.

Felo's: A couple of posts here were about some disaffection for their Felo drivers, I love my 550's and reach for them before I reach for my PB Swiss slotted but I have the high end 550 model much more expensive ones, not the wood ones. A couple of days ago I received the wood handle set for $19. I was needing a set for my to go kit but have to say the quality and finish is no where remotely as nice as my 550. The 550 are machined and milled finished, the wood ones are not. Having said that, for $20 I doubt anything can beat them, They would make for a great beater set that you don't have to worry about; designed to strike with a hammer, has a hex bolster and has a tough satin chrome finish. If you linseed oil them, they will be beautiful and timeless but please Dont don't compare them to a PB Swiss or better 550 Felo's. Wiha also makes a nice wood set.

Wera's: Recently I also pulled out a set of Wera's to revisit and compare. I agree the handle is very nice and I think the tip finish and fit sizing is the best out there but they do wear out rather quick and softer than the PB Swiss, Felo's, Wiha, Williams. I say they could be the best for lighter use and low torque shops and prices are lower than the ones mentioned above; the handles don't torque as well as Williams, PB Swiss or Felo's. I would say Wiha (germany) have stronger tips than Wera (czech). I love my small precision Wera's for feel and tip fit but find the shafts too long and twisty and are going away, prefer using my Felo's and Wiha's.

Williams: I bought a set after having issues with my PB Swiss drivers and since they were on deep discount I would feel better when trashing them. Have to say they're really nice, no real complaints other than the tips were slightly softer than my Felo's and PB's (PH heads). Other than that is ergonimics preference, the handle is hard but has the best torque but not the most comfortable. And there made in USA.

SK: The soft grips are made at Western Forge (USA), exact same set as Craftsman Pro. They're pretty expensive for what you get and have about the same or slightly less wear than the Williams. I use a 1/8th slotted everyday and love it but I do have to fix the tip edge on occasion.

Again; Personal usage, costs, ergonomics, feel and specs can tip the difference to what you like better and mileage will vary but there does seems to be a overwhelming consensus of about four to eight manufacturers to safely consider. Go review other threads and sites and you'll see similar opinions. And of course they're other excellent ones out there but these seems to mentioned the most thumbs up.

PS Swiss #1 (3.5mm) slotted barely used and soft, it was replaced but......

Send the serial numbers to PB Swiss, they track each driver from metal to production; they should be able to do a deep dive on that failure.

 

[macgee]

Send the serial numbers to PB Swiss, they track each driver from metal to production; they should be able to do a deep dive on that failure.

Thanks, they replaced it but I have two others that are soft but not nearly as bad as that one but I'm not in love with them and if I was to do PB Swiss again in those sizes, I would instead get the precision style handle over the soft grip ones.

 

[pizza]

thanks for the reports, PelicanPines and macgee!

you know which vessel driver i really want to see more pics of now though?

their 100-series wood handle drivers:

https://www.vessel.co.jp/english/userfiles/handtools/wooden_E.pdf

https://www.vessel.co.jp/english/product/screwdriver/detail/111055

No. 100
Powerful Tang-Thru Screwdriver
Especially large, heavy-duty end cap. An especially large end cap efficiently delivers the shock of the hammer blow.
When tapped with a hammer, and adjusting the force of the tapping to the condition of the material concerned, this screwdriver can be used effectively to loosen stripped or rusted screws.

Luxurious furniture finish coating on the large handle, which fits more comfortably in your hand the more you use it.
Its better usability compared to plastic handles attracts support from many professional users.

Furniture-quality grip...
●Wooden handle and Tang-Thru shank.
●Long shank for fastening in a hard-to-reach space.
These grips are one size larger than the usual, and have been given a furniture type finish for an especially high-qual- ity feel.
Especially large, heavy-duty end cap.
An especially large end cap efficiently delivers the shock of the hammer blow.
When tapped with a hammer, and adjusting the force of the tapping to the condition of the material concerned, this screwdriver can be used effectively to loosen stripped rusted screws.

furniture-quality grip haha

anybody have these drivers?

 

[pizza]

macgee,

idk, maybe pbswiss slotted driver tips just aren't strong and don't stand up to any 'abuse'.

after seeing your pics, i'll be careful with mine.

 

[GrantCee]

you know which vessel driver i really want to see more pics of now though?
their 100-series wood handle drivers:

furniture-quality grip haha

anybody have these drivers?

Yep. Been using them for several years. Love 'em. Once you take the barcode off the handle (which comes off easily with alcohol) they're pretty good looking. Not Nepros good, of course, but then they don't have a Nepros price tag.

Edited to add picture: These are the three I use most often, all Phillips (I have a couple of bladed ones, but I never use them so I have no idea where they are. My wife probably has them.) The top two are #2 and have the same size handle, the bottom is a #1 and the handle is smaller. Each has some iridescence, but the bottom one has the best figuring; the top one is the plainest.

 

[pizza]

Yep. Been using them for several years. Love 'em. Once you take the barcode off the handle (which comes off easily with alcohol) they're pretty good looking. Not Nepros good, of course, but then they don't have a Nepros price tag.

nice! good looking drivers.

any chance of a more top-down shot of the ferrule looking down the shank from the tip's perspective?

btw, to anyone trying to find them...

i had an unusually hard time finding them on azjp for some reason.
i think because the series name (100) is too generic of a search term.
i wasn't getting it with vessel 100 or ベッセル 100.

to save you some trouble, you can try:

ベッセル 強力貫通ドライバー
ベッセル 天然木

or direct link to one offering:

https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B000TG8ODU/

 

[GrantCee]

any chance of a more top-down shot of the ferrule looking down the shank from the tip's perspective?

Like this? #1 on the left, #2 on the right.

 

[pizza]

yes, thank you

 

[macgee]

I've included some pics for you to see the difference in handle shapes and shafts. I also included some old school USA made ones (wood Plomb #3, lrg. wood Irwin, yellow Proto, Stanley 100 plus); sometimes upgrading screwdrivers doesn't necessarily mean buying newly made ones. Old forged steel is some of the very best. Also showing a Bahco stubby ratchet which I highly recommend.

The Stanley 100 Plus is my all time favorite, love all the different milled facets in the profile and the is thing is way tougher than my Williams and other slotted drivers and I have not treated it kindly. However the handle is meh.

Contrary to others, I'm not a fan of the Wiha SoftFinish handle, much prefer the Felo.

 

[Dave455]

My experience:

PB Swiss: Last night I bought a bunch of PB Swiss bits, hex and drivers as Tool Lady is having a 25% off sale right now but also have to say I had two (3.5 & 4mm) soft grip slotted blades bend (see pics below) and wear out on me way prematurely (bad batch?) and the soft grip is hard to clean even after aggressively trying. The grips are very good, can get good torque but found my Felo 550 more comfortable and the slotted tips are holding up much better.

My PB S. phillips heads (#0,1,2,3) don't even look worn after three years, very impressive and completely opposite to my slotted ones.
I just ordered a bunch of hex bits for my drivers to test out and I suspect they're better than anything else and prices are good for them.

I have been using PB Swiss, or PB Baumann as they were, for probably 20 years.

I too, have long felt they are about the best, however, I’ve come round to the view that their current screwdrivers are not as good as their older ones.

I have some classic handle (the best in my opinion) screwdrivers in my shop that are maybe 10 years old. The tips have worn very well, but the shafts have rust on them, visible inside the handles. By contrast, I have a set of ball hex drivers that are considerably older, in the same drawer, and there is no corrosion. The chroming can not be as good.

I’m disappointed to hear about the soft tips, and I would personally get in touch with PB directly. I may do so regarding the corrosion on mine.

I have never liked the soft swissgrips. They are probably fine for someone in a sterile white workshop assembling electronic components, but are totally impractical for me. PB really seem to be pushing these though. A suspicious individual would point out that you can’t see corroded blades through a Swissgrip handle...!

The 1/4 inch hex bits have always been good, and still seem to be. I have had no issues with these and have not found better. Ditto the hex keys. The spring steel in these seems to be unique to PB and is incredibly durable.

 

[macgee]

I have been using PB Swiss, or PB Baumann as they were, for probably 20 years.

I too, have long felt they are about the best, however, I’ve come round to the view that their current screwdrivers are not as good as their older ones.

I have some classic handle (the best in my opinion) screwdrivers in my shop that are maybe 10 years old. The tips have worn very well, but the shafts have rust on them, visible inside the handles. By contrast, I have a set of ball hex drivers that are considerably older, in the same drawer, and there is no corrosion. The chroming can not be as good.

I’m disappointed to hear about the soft tips, and I would personally get in touch with PB directly. I may do so regarding the corrosion on mine.

I have never liked the soft swissgrips. They are probably fine for someone in a sterile white workshop assembling electronic components, but are totally impractical for me. PB really seem to be pushing these though. A suspicious individual would point out that you can’t see corroded blades through a Swissgrip handle...!
.

Good info on hearing about a long ownership of PB Swiss. I think the rust is just a testament of how much iron is in the shank. Also, could be a reaction to the chemicals gassing off in the handle? I had this problem with my Mitutoyo instruments sealed inside their factory cases.

The soft grips are hard to clean, here's a pic of my #2ph. it was well cleaned with normal degrease/solents; haven't gone nuclear on it yet.

The 1/4 inch hex bits have always been good, and still seem to be. I have had no issues with these and have not found better. Ditto the hex keys. The spring steel in these seems to be unique to PB and is incredibly durable.

Good to hear, I decided to invest in PS Swiss Hex's since there were on sale and when comparing prices, they were not too much more than German bits. I didn't buy sets, I bought multiples of what I know I'll use and it came out cheaper than buying sets with half of those bits never really being used.

 

[PelicanPines]

Never had Felo... I have a set of PB Swiss tiny screwdrivers... but I left them in Narnia...

Might get a small Felo set for the car...

I am NOT a fan of real wood handles on screwdrivers...

 

[measuredtwice]

https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B000TG8ODU/

I noticed these are marked "product of Japan" which is not the same as "made in Japan".

any chance of a more top-down shot of the ferrule looking down the shank from the tip's perspective?

Like this? #1 on the left, #2 on the right.

Looks typical. Ferrules are commonly used with wood handles to prevent the wood from splitting. The wood underneath is turned down to the same conical shape and the ferrule slips right over it.

I have a lot of old wood handle screwdrivers. The old Hurwood screwdrivers are classic. I still use mine. When buying new, I'd probably stick with the Megadora 900 style.

 

[Bubba Fett]

Those old Stanley 100 Plus screwdrivers are amazingly tough. Like you said, the handles are not great, but those shanks are amazing.

To OP:

I say try out a few brands by buying one or two drivers in a size you most commonly use (i.e. Phillips #2) and see what you like it. I have bought some driver sets and rarely used them because the handles were not comfortable, and didn't fit my hand well, or they had nice handles but poor tips. I'd say Felo, Wiha and Vessel might be the best solution for your needs, but it would be better to try some out before spending a lot of money on drivers that you may not be happy with. Plus common sizes like that tend to get misplaced, so these can also function as backups no matter what brand you end up going with.

 

[designer485]

Here are a few more comparison photos of some of the screwdrivers talked about thus far. I added a few PB swiss phillips drivers to the collection as well as a set of Irazola, I just haven't taken a new comparison shot.

Show here are all PH2:
Felo Ergo
Wiha Soft Finsih VDE
Williams Hard Handle
Felo VDE
Snap On Soft Handle - Gen 1
Wera Kraftform Comfort
Craftsman USA
Snap-On Hard Handle

PB Swiss (PH0, PH1, PH2, PH3)

Irazola (PH1, PH2, Multiple Flat Tip)

 

[macgee]

It looks like the OP'er has left the building several pages ago and went with Hazet's.

But this thread has been really useful to me during the Black Friday/TG while having some down time to go through my screwdriver sets and think about what I (could) need and don't need.

One of my recommendations is first ask yourself what you'll be working on (type of items) and how much use & beating they'll get?

The discussion of german & swiss, usa and japanese drivers brings up an interesting topic.
I think all of us at one time or another have been/try using phillips screwdrivers when a JIS driver is needed without knowing it. This is for smaller screw heads that need #1, #0,#00,#000 drivers; #2 on larger japanese machines.
Camera's, iPhones, bikes, RC hobby work,motorcycles, home electronics and and many other misc. items made in asia; Japan uses JIS mostly and not phillips.
JIS is a pacific rim standard or was. Like on those cheap electronic items (IE: house thermostat) you're trying to fix.

Talk about german drivers now work on JIS is a falsehood, especially on older pacific rim items. Your minty new expensive high end drivers will still cam out on JIS screws. Japanese made Vessel drivers could be the exception but question how well they can match a good phillips driver on a PH screw head?

Suggest on top of buying a good comprehensive primary screwdriver set, to think about also getting some JIS drivers/tips to cover yourself for those odds jobs. maybe look for a (new old stock) Niwa driver sets, they look like the cheap china jeweler drivers but are high quality and super smooth and tips are nicely milled and super hard and well respected n the camera repair world. Vessel and Hozan are also good. Moody (USA) also makes a small JIS set but would prefer Niwa and Vessel. I have Moody's but don't like how the top turns so roughly.

Also, if you're replacing a set here in the United States with a european metric set of drivers, be sure to check the slotted width sizes and see how they match up with your imperial USA drivers, they don't exactly match up and a lot of europeans sets do not include sizes larger than 8mm (5/16"). Most USA driver sets include 3/8" (10mm).

Lastly, The need for having a PZ1 and PZ2 (Pozidriv) driver tips is coming up way more often and can be very useful as well. Pretty much everyone here on GJ has PZ screws being used somewhere in their household.

Any thoughts?

 

[rlitman]

...Lastly, The need for having a PZ1 and PZ2 (Pozidriv) driver tips is coming up way more often and can be very useful as well. Pretty much everyone here on GJ has PZ screws being used somewhere in their household.

Any thoughts?...

That JIS picture you have is actually pozidriv.

I use PZ1, PZ2 and PZ3. I have PZ4 bits, but have not used them yet.
My PZ2 drivers are used on European electrical components. Ikea uses PZ2 in most screws, with PZ1 in some smaller screws and PZ3 in some cams that aren't hex.

 

[GrantCee]

Japanese made Vessel drivers could be the exception but question how well they can match a good phillips driver on a PH screw head.

I can tell you from actual experience that a Vessel #2 will fit true Phillips heads better, with less cam-out and less wear, than a Williams #2 will.

 

[sberry]

I have an old Stanley like that I have thrown out at least 3 times. All worn out and a pain in the *** that simply persists. Next time I see it am going to burn it in half so it cant walk back. That old Cman is not much, its ok for a bit when its new but strips up pretty easy compared to a modern hardened tip.
I aint persnickity about the drivers, if they are newer and sharp they are good, they old and worn I dont care what brand they are. Most of my days of really brutalizing them on tuff screws are in the past, unless a guy is restoring they dont even use them anymore. They manage a lot of it where nothing fits.
I am over even all my old stuff, very rarely really get a tuff common screw that aint completely destroyed. I try not to work too much on other peoples junk where every fastener is damaged. Convenience is everything to me, the cost would be prohibitive to spend or track. I got a couple drivers a couple nut runners 2 pliers hammer, adjustable and a vise grip in everything that moves. I bought 15 drivers lately, some of the bigger ones are hanging around but committed to 8 more till they quit disappearing.

 

[Rinspeed]

Here are a few more comparison photos of some of the screwdrivers talked about thus far. I added a few PB swiss phillips drivers to the collection as well as a set of Irazola, I just haven't taken a new comparison shot.

Great pics my friend, have a couple of the SO hard handle and I'm not that impressed with them. Also have several of the older Craftsman and they have served me well. The Wiha VDE are a great deal and have used those a bunch. The PB Swiss are super **** and will be my next driver purchase.

 

[macgee]

That JIS picture you have is actually pozidriv.

rlitman,

Don't want to get too off topic but you're incorrect, my pic is indeed actually a JIS pic and not a pozidriv.

Here's is a pic of a pozidriv ariel view, poizdriv has a small square section cutout inside the cross section.

I've also included two pics of a brand new Felo Phillips #2 bit. I really like the quality of Felo bits and how well milled they are. You can (sort of) see the multi facet angles in the phillips valley, it's not just a sharp v cross section like a JIS. You can see why phillips cam out so easily on JIS screw heads, they just cant go further into the JIS head.

Felo PH #2 shape

I can tell you from actual experience that a Vessel #2 will fit true Phillips heads better, with less cam-out and less wear, than a Williams #2 will.

Grant,

Great info and good to hear. How's the wear holding up on the tip on your most used vessel?





`

 

[measuredtwice]

The topic of JIS screwdrivers comes up frequently. This topic was bumped recently. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395037 Read the quote from Vessel.

Statement from Vessel:

"...JIS recognition system for screwdrivers became extinct in 2008. So there is no authorized JIS manufacturer now, and we therefore cannot print "JIS" mark on our screwdrivers."

 

[GrantCee]

Grant,

Great info and good to hear. How's the wear holding up on the tip on your most used vessel?

Pretty well. The brown tip finish has worn in places, but physically they're holding up better than the poor Williams drivers did (and don't get me started on the Craftsman junk.)

I've even used them on a lot of hardened drywall screws, which really tear screwdrivers up, but they haven't worn as much as others I've owned.

 

[Legion Prime]

It looks like the OP'er has left the building several pages ago and went with Hazet's.

But this thread has been really useful to me during the Black Friday/TG while having some down time to go through my screwdriver sets and think about what I (could) need and don't need.

One of my recommendations is first ask yourself what you'll be working on (type of items) and how much use & beating they'll get?

The discussion of german & swiss, usa and japanese drivers brings up an interesting topic.
I think all of us at one time or another have been/try using phillips screwdrivers when a JIS driver is needed without knowing it. This is for smaller screw heads that need #1, #0,#00,#000 drivers; #2 on larger japanese machines.
Camera's, iPhones, bikes, RC hobby work,motorcycles, home electronics and and many other misc. items made in asia; Japan uses JIS mostly and not phillips.
JIS is a pacific rim standard or was. Like on those cheap electronic items (IE: house thermostat) you're trying to fix.

Talk about german drivers now work on JIS is a falsehood, especially on older pacific rim items. Your minty new expensive high end drivers will still cam out on JIS screws. Japanese made Vessel drivers could be the exception but question how well they can match a good phillips driver on a PH screw head?

Suggest on top of buying a good comprehensive primary screwdriver set, to think about also getting some JIS drivers/tips to cover yourself for those odds jobs. maybe look for a (new old stock) Niwa driver sets, they look like the cheap china jeweler drivers but are high quality and super smooth and tips are nicely milled and super hard and well respected n the camera repair world. Vessel and Hozan are also good. Moody (USA) also makes a small JIS set but would prefer Niwa and Vessel. I have Moody's but don't like how the top turns so roughly.

Also, if you're replacing a set here in the United States with a european metric set of drivers, be sure to check the slotted width sizes and see how they match up with your imperial USA drivers, they don't exactly match up and a lot of europeans sets do not include sizes larger than 8mm (5/16"). Most USA driver sets include 3/8" (10mm).

Lastly, The need for having a PZ1 and PZ2 (Pozidriv) driver tips is coming up way more often and can be very useful as well. Pretty much everyone here on GJ has PZ screws being used somewhere in their household.

Any thoughts?

You know how I know you're from the south? You didn't once mention Robertson. LOL

 

[measuredtwice]

Here's a comparison of the profiles of several different Phillips #2 bits from different manufacturers.

Top Row:
Wera 071011 (Czech) —Stainless
Wera 072072 (Czech)
Wera 134920 (Czech)
Wera 346281 (Czech)
Wera 135009 (Czech)
Wera 380156 (Czech)
Wera 056662 (Czech) —ACR
Snap-On SDM222IRB (USA) —ACR
Apex 440-2X (USA)
Apex 446-215 (USA)

Bottom Row:
Wiha 71102 (Vietnam)
Wiha 76502 (Vietnam)
Felo 10317 (Germany) —TIN
Felo 52471 (Germany) —TIN
Felo 30205 (Germany)
Vessel 2H (Japan)
PB Swiss C6-190.2 (Switzerland)
Montana Brand (USA)
Dewalt (China)
Generic (China)

 

[measuredtwice]

Here's a side-by-side comparison of the tips on the Vessel Megadora 900 (paid $8 from Amazon) and the least expensive Felo driver (5 piece set for $9 at Fleet Farm). Felo on the left. Vessel on the right.

And from left to right: PB Swiss, Wiha Softfinish, Felo blue handle, Vessel Megadora 900, Vessel ball grip.

 

[pizza]

nice pics, measuredtwice and macgee!

It looks like the OP'er has left the building several pages ago and went with Hazet's.

But this thread has been really useful to me during the Black Friday/TG while having some down time to go through my screwdriver sets and think about what I (could) need and don't need.

agreed, this has been one of my favorite screwdriver threads on GJ.

JIS is a pacific rim standard or was. Like on those cheap electronic items (IE: house thermostat) you're trying to fix.

Talk about german drivers now work on JIS is a falsehood... Your minty new expensive high end drivers will still cam out on JIS screws.

what forms the basis of this claim? personal experience?

it's my understanding that:

• JIS B cruciform spec isn't a thing anymore
• ISO 8764-1 has superseded the JIS B cruciform spec
• vessel et al. do not make screwdrivers to JIS B
• vessel now makes their drivers to ISO 8764-1
• according to vessel et al., ISO 8764-1 works well on JIS fasteners (see quote below)
• therefore, other (european) drivers made to ISO 8764-1 should drive JIS fasteners well
• vessel drivers should, in turn (get it?), drive european PH fasteners well
• based on my experience and on anecdotal reports of others (like GrantCee), drivers made to ISO 8764-1 also work well on a variety of PH fasteners you find in USA. i don't know the history of PH specs, but i'm guessing something published by ANSI, ASME, or SAE is responsible for what you find in the hardware store today. if anyone has specific details on "american cruciform specifications", please share!

Statement from Vessel:

"Q: Why VESSEL's screwdrivers are not labeled “JIS”?

As you might know, VESSEL is the oldest screwdriver manufacturer in Japan, and made a contribution to set a JIS standard. We do follow JIS standard for cross point screwdrivers. Because the technology to manufacture screwdrivers in Japan had already become above a certain level, JIS recognition system for screwdrivers became extinct in 2008. So there is no authorized JIS manufacturer now, and we therefore cannot print "JIS" mark on our screwdrivers."

From another tool manufacturer:

"Important: Vessel is making the 1/4" drive bits we carry to DIN Standard #5260. They are NOT true JIS per se. However, we have tested them extensively here and have determined that due to the tight corner radius on these bits (a key ingredient differentiating JIS from Phillips standards), they fit JIS fasteners that you will encounter perfectly."

...especially on older pacific rim items.

i don't know anything about the JIS cruciform spec's evolution over time. do newer JIS drivers work well on older JIS fasteners?

Japanese made Vessel drivers could be the exception but question how well they can match a good phillips driver on a PH screw head?

there's more than one PH spec, and i think this is a source of misunderstanding.

 

[GrantCee]

i don't know anything about the JIS cruciform spec's evolution over time. do newer JIS drivers work well on older JIS fasteners?

I have some Japanese ham radios from the mid-80s, which my current Vessel drivers work nicely on.

(Edited to add: I wish I'd saved the Vessel screwdrivers which came in a Japanese tool kit from the early '80s. I would have liked to compare it to my current ones.

Over on the Japanese tools thread I posted a picture of a nutdriver which came in the kit, but it's the only piece I kept.)

 

[tanukiboy]

Since the JIS screwdriver issue is attracting interest again, I thought I should mention that folks who want real JIS drivers can get the Sunflag JIS 215 series. Here's a link to an earlier thread about them.

 

[pizza]

Since the JIS screwdriver issue is attracting interest again, I thought I should mention that folks who want real JIS drivers can get the Sunflag JIS 215 series. Here's a link to an earlier thread about them.

interesting. well, after after reading that, now i'm second guessing myself.

i guess i need to email vessel and ask them what's up with their tips.

i should also test out my (new) vessel, nepros (which is apparently not JIS either but their own spec), wiha, pbswiss, and whatever else i have on my yamaha motorcycle screws and see what works best. i remember using american hardware store PH drivers on it in the past, and it was terrible. cam-out city.

from that thread:

Posted a few times already but this is a statement from Vessel themselves rather than a third party distributor.

Vessel Statement on JIS Compatibility:
The Phillips tip of VESSEL screwdrivers is designed with less tolerance than the JIS or ISO standards. Therefore, the VESSEL tip standard is within both the JIS and ISO standards. i.e. it complies with the JIS standard as well as the ISO standard.

though there are comments in that thread saying new euro (ISO 8764-1) drivers and new vessel drivers both work well on JIS and PH screws in the respective posters' testing.

this would make sense because if you look at the figure that tanukiboy has posted a few times, the specs are pretty similar.

 

[macgee]

Here's a comparison of the profiles of several different Phillips #2 bits from different manufacturers.

Those are some nice and clean pics of side profiles, now take some shots if you can from straight on (plan view) to tell the whole story and to see key factor on shape/fit between JIS and a typical PH shape.

Again, not to get off too off topic as this thread is about upgrading screwdrivers and not if EU drivers fit JIS. The other thread linked above about JIS is better for that,

I did read in several places and it makes sense but not exactly rock solid info as it came from the internet after all, but Phillips was designed for the aerospace industry to cam out on purpose. This was to prevent workers from over torquing expensive and sensitive aluminum aircraft assemblies; better to damage the screw than a airplane frame.

Definitely more info and sleuthing is required to know if the new EU phillips tip design works well on old JIS.
One thing is for sure is that USA phillips tip design totally ***** on JIS screws. Quite a few articles on camera, RC and bike sites all speak about this.

Looking at the plan view (looking down on it) of JIS and Phillips, I can not see how a typical PH tip can remotely work well in a traditional JIS screw. It's almost like trying to fit a round tapered peg into a square tapered hole. Only allowing a partial contact with the walls and insertion.

Anyways, I'm getting much more impressed with Vessel drivers. Reading on other sites and threads that they're using a very good hard steel on the shanks and many people love them and its very hard to find any negs about them other than some personal ergonomic opinions which is normal.

It will also be interesting to hear how the new Hazet's worked out?

 

[exmaxima1]

Hi guys,

I have been using craftsman screw drivers for a while and finally want to upgrade.

I want something that will hold up well, work well, and fit comfortably in my hand with an ergonomic grip.
.........
Or is this all stupid and should i get an ergonomic kobalt set for $20? note i dont need the precision screw drivers that come with it..

It seems that nobody likes your idea of the Kobalt set. LOL, I was at my son's home a few weeks ago and needed both a screwdriver (he still had the cheapy Stanley set that Santa gave him 20 years ago) and a bottle opener: I saw that Kobalt set for $20 and it will definitely be an upgrade for him this Christmas.

 

[Ton ton]

I don't like kobalt screwdrivers. Lowes won't warranty them. Very frustrating.